₦airaland Forum

elampiro: [b][/b]

I guess you will call this too the work of the devil.

No smoke without fire. A real humble man would not be disobedient to Pope Benedict as Cardinal Bergoglio did.

Bye for now.

where are the acts of disobedience?

elampiro: I guess when he said atheist are saved if they they do good, he was not also trying to preach to them? What is then the primary job of a Pope if he is not to call people to Jesus?

I leave you people.

We will meet again in the future. But I have the right to analyse the Pope words any time, just as the cardinals and the rest of the world are doing.

where did pope francis say atheist are saved if the do good.?

elampiro: You have not defended anything successfully, except that you are trying to help the Pope to be Pope.

The same Pope Francis who refused to follow Benedict's instructions.

canon law 101 a pope is not bound by the instructions of a previous pope except they are dogmas

elampiro: You are ignorant.

This does not say people should work with their conscience without Jesus. Stop twisting truth to send people away from accepting Jesus.

that is exactly what it says, with or without Jesus man must obey his conscience.

Let me ask you, would you advise an atheist to seek God and listen to his conscience or ignore his conscience and seek God.

elampiro: The post quoted a cannon law which clearly states that a heretic Pope loses his papacy immediately he becomes heretic.

No church law prevents me from analysing the Pope's comments. Even individual cardinal have made their own analysis, and nobody has questioned them.


I am to worship Jesus not a Pope, My belief is to be formed by the bible, them my loyalty is to the church, not any man. Afterall there have been bad Popes in history.

no the post didn't quote canon law it quoted a saint/theologian and a pope but it didn't quote canon law. It also says that it is wrong for you to judge the pope guilty of heresy because you do not possess that authority.

Church law doesn't prevent you from analising but church law prevents you from accussing the pope of heresy or to assume that he has lost his office that is why not even the cardinal dare to accuse the pope.

Incase you don't know you owe loyalty to the pope

elampiro: Expressing the belief that it was important for Christians to engage in "a sincere and rigorous dialogue" with atheists, Francis recalled Scalfari had asked him whether God forgave those "who do not believe and do not seek to believe".

"Given – and this is the fundamental thing – that God's mercy has no limits, if He is approached with a sincere and repentant heart," the pope wrote, "the question for those who do not believe in God is to abide by their own conscience. There is sin, also for those who have no faith, in going against one's conscience. Listening to it and abiding by it means making up one's mind about what is good and evil."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/11/pope-francis-atheists-abide-consciences

he didn't mention 'salvation' or 'saved'. He never said anybody was saved by following their conscience. He only admonished that the unbeliever should follow his conscience he never said that was a guarantee of salvation.
Again i advise you to read with understanding.

striktlymi: Long time boss!


Through with your busy schedule?

not really, but i make time to go thru nairaland once in a while.

elampiro: Thank you for being the judge over me.

Did you not see the below conclusion.

..........................................
"So, one may consider the possibility that an “anti-pope” could potentially come from a valid conclave, and this does not constitute a false or “heretical” position.

Thus, it is actually possible to remain faithful to the Magisterium AND consider that the messages of MDM plausibly might be authentic that the Pope is the false prophet… and even that the Church herself states that this IS at least possible."
..........................................
I have had a retreat wit a very high clergy. Am I to listen to you or a high clergy of the church or the bible (or even Jesus' instructions) ?

the post you quote clearly says you must continue to assume you have a valid pope until proven otherwise by the highest posible legitimate authority, that is a general council. In simply english you need a general council before you can even attempt to convict a validly elected pope of heresy.
The irony of that case is that even a general council lacks the authority to depose a validly elected pope, because canon law makes it clear that the primus authority cannot be judged by its subordinates.

...

elampiro: What have you said differently now?

Who are members of the curia? Cardinals. So see how your supposed humble Pope rubbished Cardinals in the face of unbelievers just for his own fame. Also note the difference between his use of courtiers and Court.

If he has something bad to correct why can't he just correct it?

So what is heads of church? Previous Popes.

I thought you said a Pope was infallible, so where did the word 'leprosy' come from? Is there suppose to be any such word associated with papacy? Keep making defences? You have a long way to go.

so you don't know how to differentiate the words of the pope from that of the interviewer, go back to GS 101

elampiro: The difference between Pope Benedict and Pope Francis is that Pope Benedict did not make leave any doubt as to what he meant by his statements. I guess Pope Benedict was in throne for nearing eight years, he did not make so many controversial statements in his eight years of reign. Pope Francis has only been there for 6 months and he has rocked the world with comments favouring circularism while undermining catholic teachings. I knew about Fr Grunner and Fatima crusader even berfore Benedict was elected, but I never for once write anything ill about Benedict, every of his move was on point. Only once did Benedict gave little concern with a statement but I gave him benefit of doubt and he quickly redeemed himself. He quickly proved his allegiance with the Mother church.

Jesus called sinners to Himself and taught us to do the same, he said we should go and baptise people in the name of The Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. He said no man can come to the Father without Him. Why can't Pope Francis uphold this truth firmly in his effort to win the unbelievers? His statement that atheist are saved by their conscience wouldn't have been challenged by the world had he made it conditioner. The CCC you showed me clearly made it conditioner.

When Pope Francis made his first two controversial statements, I did not write anything. I was trying to give him benefit of doubt despite all the other evidences I had in my archives. He said atheist are saved if they do good. Then later he said when you go to confession it is not that we seek forgiveness, but that we tell Jesus our sins are His' while also saying we will sin again.

When he said the above two statements like two months apart I never wrote or raise dust. But it is now clear that Pope Francis means 'business' if not checked.

You are correct that the Church will always be fought by the devil, and that the gate of hell will not prevail. But you also have forgotten that the book of Revelation and Mathew 24 clearly stated that the False Prophet and many other agents (false prophets) will be given a time to test the church that if possible even the elect will be misled. You have failed to put this part of the bible in any of your arguments since we started. The bible is a very wide book, you cannot ignore some areas while holding on to some promises. The bible mentioned Tribulation, what makes you think it won't happen now in our time?

God told Daniel not to open yet the book of truth until the end time. Now Maria messages stated that what Daniel was asked to withheld and promised for the end time is what is given to Maria to the world. I will suggest you go and read all the messages of Maria before you dismiss them. The Message of Maria clearly instructed the Priests to be obedient to the church until the meaning of mass is changed and the division comes from the top. However, they should not try to stop the spread of these final prophetic work of God the Father. I can never condemn any visionary I have not read at least half of his/her messages.

.....................................................
Rev 13:3-10
The whole world was filled with wonder and followed the beast. 4 People worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can wage war against it?”

5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation. 8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the Lamb’s book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world.[b]

9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.

10 “If anyone is to go into captivity,
into captivity they will go.
If anyone is to be killed[c] with the sword,
with the sword they will be killed.”[d]
This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of God’s people.
....................................................................................................................

where did pope francis say atheist are saved by their conscience

elampiro: Do you want us to talk of the occult? You want to push me now.

Do you know the day Pope Francis was announced as the Pope, the Freemans*ns issued a congratulatory message in two of their websites for the Argentina and Italian lodge?

Can you explain to me the cross Pope Francis was showing to the bishops of Brazil on his last trip?

I will also like an explanation on the cross he currently wears. Why is he running away from the crucifix?



As for Maria, everyone has to discern visionaries. So you cannot speak for me. It is my discernment. People who use to call her similar names have come to believe. The link I shared above was given to me by someone who used to criticise the messages just two months back.

where is the new crucifix?

striktlymi: As for this, you should realize that 'infinity' is not part of the set of Real numbers. At best it's abstract and meant to denote a limitless state.

If God were to give you a number that depicts the end of infinity then it would mean that 'infinity' has a limit and that makes it finite. Hence the conflict jumps right in our faces.

A state of infinity cannot be finite at the same time. Similar to asking LB to leave nairaland and be on nairaland at the same time. Your question pappi is invalid.

hehehe, good job!

ok, ifa is wisdom, the past, present and future, what is, what was and what will be. Orumila is high priest, the balawo is suppose tn aquire that knowledge by interpreting a set of chanced circumstance usually palm nut or bead and using a technique of divinition learned from an elder.
Now is ifa an orisa itself or just the technique orumila and his initiates use to access a certain supernatural knowledge?

italo: @ Ube, you actually spent your energy to make that explanation?

You have a good heart...but this one only believes whatever seems to him to portray Francis in bad light. Even if its a lie.

like i said i attend tradentine mass with gregorian chant and heavy latin, i'll attend it again this sunday so i naturally think i'm the most paronoid when talking about theological currents between traditionalists and progressives, it pains me when someone is interpreting catholic teachings with private revelations, it should be the other way.
I just can't believe it, is it the first time a pope retired.

wow, great work, shongo is a bit of irony, how come the orisa who advises against rash decisions is in charge of an overcharge and raging force like thunder.
A yoruba man once argued with me that sopono is small pox and not an orisa, how did so many orisas become unpopular.
I thought olokun was alway a she.
Anyway good job.

Chiamaka01: Now, i'll give my reasons.
a) She gave birth to Jesus, obviously through the birth canal.
b) She was a virgin, so wouldn't the hymen tear?
I'm kinda confused so i need serious answers.

this is simple, you can just tell me how the burning bush in exodus was burning but wasn't consumed.

i hope you continue this tomorow

elampiro: Why did the Pope summon the Fatima statue to Vatican?

since you still want to talk about this, it would interest you to know that benedict planed the whole thing before he retired
(Vatican Radio) "Blessed are you for believing!" That is the theme of the Marian Day which will be held in the Vatican on 12 and 13 October next, in the presence of the Holy Father Pope Francis and all the associations of Marian spirituality. Organized by the Pontifical Council for Promoting the New Evangelization, the event is part of the celebrations of the Year of Faith - organized by the then Pope Benedict XVI to commemorate the fiftieth anniversary of the Second Vatican Council - and coincides with the anniversary of the last apparition of the Blessed Virgin at Fatima: it was, in fact, on October 13, 1917 when at Cova da Iria, Portugal, Our Lady appeared for the sixth and final time to the three shepherd children, Lucia, Francisco and Jacinta. Soon after, there was the so-called "miracle of the sun" the solar disc changed colour, size and position for about ten minutes. In memory of this date, therefore, the original statue of Our Lady of Fatima will be brought to St. Peter's Square and exposed to the veneration of the faithful. This is the program of the day in detail: Saturday, October 12, at 8:00 am, there will be a pilgrimage to the tomb of Peter, an hour later, Eucharistic Adoration will begin with the celebration of the sacrament of reconciliation in some churches adjacent to St. Peter's Square. In the afternoon, at 17.00, the statue of Our Lady of Fatima will be welcomed by Pope Francis in St. Peter's Square and then the Pope will hold a Marian catechesis. From 19.00 onwards, the statue of the Virgin arrives at the Sanctuary of Divine Love, where the Rosary will be recited with a link up to all the Marian shrines in the world, while starting from 22.00, there will be a prayer vigil. The next day, Sunday, October 13, the statue will return to St. Peter's Square at 10.00 am, there will be a recitation of the Holy Rosary, and at 10.30 The Pope will preside at Mass. "www.news.va/en/news/pope-to-attend-marian-day-in-the-vatican

from the net
Let's take this in very small doses. Otherwise,
we're going to give ourselves a spiritual hernia. The first thing that we have to remember when
comparing what a pope is saying to what has
been said by a theologian, even the great St.
Thomas, is that the pope always trumps any
theologian. Only the pope has the authority and
power to interpret theology. It's not fair to the pope or the theologian to place them in
juxtaposition. Neither would appreciate the
favor, unless it's an arrogant theologian. We must also remember that words do change in
meaning. While someone like St. Vincent may say
that doctrine does not change and that it must be
believed as is for all time and someone like St.
Pius X comes along and repeats it, then you have
men like Bl. John Henry Newman and Pope Benedict XVI who say that there is a
development of doctrine. Are they in conflict? Not
at all. They are using the same words, but they
do not mean the same thing. Francis is applying Vincent's statements on
disciplines and structures to those things that we
refer to as teachings in today's language.
Teachings are not always dogmatic or revealed
truth. They are used to understand revealed
truth. When they no longer help us understand revealed truth, then the teaching has to be
replaced by another. The revealed truth remains
constant. The teaching or the mans to
understanding it develops as John Henry
Newman said. What the Holy Father is saying is that to repeat
the same revealed truth using the same formulas
over and over again, when the formula does not
bring men to Christ, is futile. At the end of the
day, the idea is not to get people to buy into the
formula, but to bring people to Christ. Here is where he brings in the whole idea of context. If we examine what the Church has said about
abortion, contraception, same-sex marriage and
other issues that plague us today, she has not
simply given us formulae. She has given us
context. For example, before Bl. John Paul defines
and declares that abortion is always evil and can never be justified, he gives you about 50 pages
of philosophical, biblical and theological principles
that lead him to conclude that abortion is a
heinous crime. What Pope Francis is saying is that we spend too
much time repeating over and over again how
evil abortion is, but we don't teach the process
that the Church follows to reach this conclusion. Then, after Bl. John Paul makes his famous
statement on abortion, he gives you about
another 25 pages on spiritual theology, scripture,
philosophy, ecclesiology, and sacramental
theology on what happens next and how to
bring home the person who has engaged in abortion. Again, Pope Francis is saying that this is not
mentioned in our daily conversation on abortion.
We stick to one point. "Abortion is a sin. If you
abort a baby, you're a murderer. An aborted
baby may or may not go to heaven. Abortion
laws must be repealed." In all of this, where is the theology? Where is the philosophy? Where is the
scripture? In all of this, where is God's mercy for the sinner?
Where is the Church's outreach before the sin
and her outreach after the fact? There is no context. We become talking heads. I'll
give you an example. I run a very large network
for fathers in crisis pregnancies and am superior
of a religious community dedicated to the Gospel
of Life. We never use the word murder. We never
accuse anyone of being more sinful than ourselves. We never get into confrontations. During a average year we persuade about 90
fathers to keep their babies. We provide for the
material, educational, and spiritual needs of the
parents, child and the healthcare providers. Those who come to us post abortion, we help
them walk through the process of healing and
reconciliation, be they parents, grandparents,
doctors or nurses. We operate five centers in one of the largest
dioceses in the country. Our counterparts, the
Sisters of Life in NY do the same type of work.
None of us ever use the angry pro-life language. We speak from the Gospel of Life. The first point
that we put on the table is context. What's
happening? Why is this abortion so necessary? If
it's over and done with, where do you want to
go with this now

elampiro: The world war 3 to be fought is what the one world people will use to usher in the Antichrist because he will end the war temporary and he will be seen as a man of peace. A man never seen before.

All these while Obama was making noise about Syria, Jesus had already told John Leary and another visionary far ahead that the war wasn't going to start yet, it was in vain they were making noise. The one world people knew what they are doing. They are checkmating the world in a very mighty deceits.

The war will surely come, but the one world people will use it to their advantage.

You guys shouldn't be so naïve.

hehehe, this was funny.
You are basing your faith on private revelation.

elampiro: Where is the letter? Pope Francis' enforcer. You cannot threaten me to accept lies as truth.

Pope Francis has crossed the line by refusing to acknowledge the divinity of Jesus.

I have told you to wait and see.

what letter?
Who told you that pope francis denied the divinity of christ?

weldone

obadiah777: Ubenedictus my ogapatapata whats good with you ? you are scarcer than a two dollar bill. trust all is well with you chief. how is the mod job ? tis aiitttt. same ol same ol. petulant folks throwing a hissy fit any chance they get.

i'm fine man! I've been busy, there is a big world out there.
It seem you're doing well
weldone.

elampiro: The Pope summoned Our Lady to his court at Vatican instead of going to pay homage to her at Fatima.

An elected Pope indeed! You will soon realized something. You just wait.

is mary sleeping at fatima Or how come mary can hear me where i am but she can hear the pope in the vatican so the pope must go to fatima?

elampiro: There can be only one Pope until a Pope dies. Don't listen to lies.

until a pope dies or retires, just as celestine v retired and gregory retired.
There is only one person wearing the crown of peter and that is his holiness pope francis, he is the bishop of rome the successor of st peter.

Benedict has retired he said 'with clarity of mind...i hereby renounce the ministry of st peter.'
canon law and the tradition of the catholic church is very clear with a pope retires he ceases to be pope and a new pope must be elected.
When celestine retired a new pope was elected and the church continued, when gregory retired a new pope was elected and the church continued, my beloved benedict has retired and francis is now pope, if you refuse to agree to that then you are guilty of sedecanventism, you are in schism and you should abstain from the eucharist. The mass you attend is even celebrated 'in union with francis our pope' yet you say you are a catholic.
I usually attend tradentine/vatican1 mass and even the priest say the tradentine mass in union with pope francis.
There is a difference between been a traditionalist and a sedecanventist, you have crossed the line and have incured excommunication.

Infomaz: your question is an important one. But what does it really mean to be "Under the Law" or "Under Grace" Permit be to reproduce one of my writeup in my face-book notes, to answer your question.

God's Grace, Law and Our Salvation.
There are two extremes (that are misleading, wrong and injurious to our salvation) that we need to guard against when it comes to the relationship between God's Grace, Law and our Salvation.
• The first is that because we are saved by Grace, we no longer need to obey the law or that the 10 commandments have been nailed to the cross.
• The second is that we are saved by law.

Note: By law, I mean the 10 commandments of God.

God's Grace is unmerited Favour, Mercy and Power in our lives so that we can be saved. (For the grace of God that brings SALVATION hath appeared to all men –Titus 2:11) It brings forgiveness, justification, and sanctification.(To make holy) Through the Holy Spirit and His Word, we are cleansed and empowered to live above or overcome sin. In other words, as children of God, we have the power to live obediently or righteously. Three times Paul in Romans debunked the idea that Grace nullifies or exempt us from obedience. (See Rom 3:31, 6:1 and 6:15)

The second extreme but wrong view is that we are saved by the law. Jesus is our Saviour, and we are saved by grace through faith in Him. The law like a mirror only reveals and points out our stains (sins) but cannot remove it. This is where Grace comes in. Through the Power of the Holy Spirit, it first forgives our sins, credit the righteousness of Jesus for us, then cleanse, sanctify and empower us to live above sin (making us more and more like Jesus) so that when we stand before the mirror (law) in judgment, we are stainless. All this is accomplished by grace through faith in Jesus through the instrumentality of the Holy Spirit

The following summarizes the Bible view of the above .

1. The just shall live by faith. (Hab 2:4, Rom 1:7)
2. We are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:8-9, Rom 3:24)
3. Our efforts to keep the law by our own strength or as a means of earning salvation is impossible and futile. (Rom 8:7-8, John 15:5)
4. Jesus and not the law is our Saviour. (Matt 1:21, Titus 1:4)
5. Grace does not nullify or exempt us from obedience to the law. It is not a license to break the law - i.e steal, commit adultery, take the name of the Lord in vain, etc.(Rom 6:1,14-15, Roman 3:31)
6. Faith also does not nullify the law nor exempt us from obedience.(Rom 3:31)
7. Faith without works (Actions, obedience or evidence) is dead. Genuine faith is reveal by action. (James 2:14-26)
8. A transformed, Spirit-filled, born again life bear fruits of obedience to God's law. In other words, obedience to the law is the 'fruitage' or result of a genuine, loving-faith based relationship with God. (Rom 8:4, John 15:10, I John 5:2-3, Rev 12:17, Rev 22:14, etc) it is a testament to the power of the Holy Spirit.
9. The Law of God also known as the law of liberty is the standard for judgment. (Eccl 12:13-14, James 2:12)
10. The Law of God, whose underlying principle is LOVE, is an expression of God's will and character. In other words, just as God is Just, Perfect, Unchangeable and Eternal, so also is His Law. (Ps 19:7, 111:7-8, Rom 7:12, Matt 5:17, etc)
11. The lives of those who will be saved will be characterise by obedience to God's law through the power of the Holy Spirit. (Rev 12:17, 22:14)
To be under the law, means to look to the law as our Saviour instead of Jesus. It means to continue in sin and thus come under its condemnation, which is death. (The wages of sin is death.) . It means to walk in the flesh (and thus exhibits all the works of the flesh) To be under the law, means to try and achieve salvation by works. It is self righteousness.
To be under Grace, means to avail ourselves of God’s mercy by repenting and forsaking our sins. It means by faith, we believe in the atoning sacrifice of Jesus on our behalf. Above all, it means to avail ourselves of the POWER of the Holy Spirit to gain the victory of SIN. To be under grace means to live righteously or obediently and thus above sin. May our lives testify of the POWER of GOD to SAVE us from SIN in Jesus name. So yes, I am under GRACE!

amen!

elampiro: Don't try to be too smart.

Where is it written in the bible that a conclave can't produce an Antipope? How come we have had bad Popes in the past, siphoning money to give their families stupendous life styles, selling of indulgences, etc.


When the Catholic church has been reduced first to the pentecostal level and finally turn upside down to a one world religion, with the Eucharist changed from the body and blood of Christ to a mere sign of communion for all peoples of all faith to share, I will know which side you shall be. When you see Cardinals splits and a major part of the church teaching that sexual sins are no longer sins and new age icons replace the crucifix and the rest, I will know which side you will be. The schismatic church will be the one teaching errors while the true Catholism will be pushed underground. Everyone including the priests will have to make a choice.

It is coming, it is starting...

a valid conclave can produce a bad pope but a valid conclave cannot produce an antipope. Calling francis an antipope actually means you are in schism, and practically excommunicated.

christemmbassey: @T-girl, do u know dat d gospel is nt for christians?

really? Are you for real?

obadiah777: i knew this gaddem heathen Goshen would be in this thread. anyone mentions grace and his ear stands up like a rabbit

The thread just got interesting.
How is life as a mod?

i am not sure i have time to discuss the distorted gospel of absolute grace. But if you need a long discussion about it then go to a christian library and read up calvinism, go to the internet and read up 'the sixth section of the council of trenth' after that read up on pelaguis.

While doing that keep a bible near. You'll need it.
I'll even take a leap and predict that goshen will give us a form of calvinism.

Ubenedictus: but his sins whether repentant or unrepentant has no effect on his eternal salvation. Did i understand you correctly?

thank God you guy have agreed that you are saying the same thing in different ways, can shdemi please answer the question above?