₦airaland Forum

@Huxley

I can answer your questions except the last one. I have no idea what cognitive dissonance is, so please educate me. I am always eager to learn from those more knowledgeable than myself.

The problem i have with you is the reasons for asking these questions.
If you are asking because you do not know and want to improve your knowledge, then it is alright.
If you truly know and want to share your knowledge, it is also alright.
But if you ask because you just want to show off, or you think you are better than others, then thats egocentric arrogance, you are not better than religionists who view themselves as superior to everyone else.

A true Evolutionist must NEVER be arrogant, but must understand, appreciate and respect other people beliefs. To most people, their beliefs is their life, so it must be respected. I hate it when people try to ridicule other people beliefs. A person beliefs according to their exposure, education, custom and orientation. You cannot expect someone who has never been to school to understand evolution. Likewise a Christian cannot understand Buddhism.

The world would be a better place if we learn to respect the beliefs of others.

Okija_juju:
Evolution may not be true but creation is just down right ridiculous.

Do not worry Evolution is true and factual, Fossils cannot lie. A lot of bones of pre-historic animals abound in museums around the world, including complete dinosaurs and other species of Homo. Also a full size frozen mammoth was uncovered in Siberia recently. Mammoths died out 10,000 yrs ago and the end of the last ice age.

Also I am proud you still identify with your native custom after all the demonization by western and middle eastern religions. And also after the okija shrine debacle.
You people need to educate others about the okija shrine, i do not think it is as bad as being portrayed.

Huxley, I go vex for u o! I will charge you for scientific harassment of OLADEGBU. How do you expect him to know what Cambrian rocks or period is. Soon you go dey ask am for Ordovician, Silurian and Devonian Rocks.
I tire for you o!

@ Huxley

huxley:
Much as it pains me to say, you are too stupid and idiotic to carry on a reasonable intelligent conversation with.

huxley:
Much as it pains me to say, you are too stupid and idiotic to carry on a reasonable intelligent conversation with.

I am glad you have finally seen the light. You cannot expect any intelligent argument from OLAADEGBU. I think he has had his faith shaken a bit because he has gotten highly defensive quoting this and that from the Bible. I think OLAADEGBU is incapable of independent thought, as he is always quoting one person or the other. He should have heeded my advice to concentrate on his beliefs.

I am completely at lost at what you are trying to achieve, to me you seem so insecure in your beliefs that you desperately need to find any information (mostly lies and half truths) to attack accepted scientific facts and evolution in particular. What you do is surf the net finding any information you can use to attack Evolution, without have a clue of what evolution entails outside the ape turning to man misconception of what evolution is.

So it even griefs me to answer your post, but i do not want other to be misled by your warped understanding of evolution and your absolute dearth of any scientific knowledge.
<quote>
The first sign that should tell an intelligent person that human knowledge is not complete yet and may never be complete in all things. The evolutionist should therefore know that their factoring out God in any process is probably because they lack true and complete knowledge, about the subject matter. Afterall, there are discoveries to be made in the future.
</quote>

Scientist are very aware that knowledge can never be complete, they only strive for better and more knowledge based on observation, experiment and inference. once God can be observed (not subjectively) and Experimented, then an inference of the effect and existence of a God can be factored into science.

<quote>
A more interesting observation should be, when will these moving objects, reach the end of the road, touching the "heaven," and is there some objects even further away ahead of the quasars
</quote>

Science makes inference based on observation and not beliefs or hunches or spiritual insights. So we cannot make inferences of objects further than Quasar because it cannot be observed. It is a pity you are a scientific illiterate because you should know the quasars we are observing is not there as we see it today, as it was some 10 to 15 billions ago, when the universe was young.
<quote>
How can big bang (Big means opposite of small) and (Bang is noise/sound), come from such a single point? It seems to me as a small wimper. No great or big sound or noise, bang can come from something that small. What a small, single point potential energy it would have had!</quote>

Go back to secondary school to study elementary physics, because you lack the basic understanding of the properties of matter. Have you heard of Neutron stars and black holes. A tablespoon of Neutron Star material can weigh as much as the whole earth. Also tiny pinhead black hole can more mass and have more energy than a whole galaxy.

I think you should pay me to teach you basic physics
<quote>
Further if it is a known fact that matter can not be created, how then can this pre-big bang material/matter produce all of these varied inumerable non biological and biological materials, known as non living and living things? If the earth is the center of all of these, then tell me how did the alien material, Ferrous, or Iron present in this earth? Make your own research about the possible origin of ferrous material presence on earth.
</quote>

I about to cry because of the stupidity of your assertions. Who said matter cannot be created? that is 19th century science. You still hold that view after Einstein gave us E = MC2 equation? wonderment shall never end?
Please tell me how Ferrous or iron became alien material to the earth, do u have any idea about the Geological formation of the Earth?
<quote>
What you have not paid any attention to is that the distribution of matter as you alluded to is not only perfect, but in the position and place and process as the Facilitator, The Designer and The Engineering Originator whated it to be, exactly. As you may think that man for example is formed by evolutionary process, where by it was not a man and was not creatd, it shows your lack of full knowledge of the origin of man. Please remember that you said that no one knows where the space that the matter known as big bang particle came from.
</quote>

Is it OLAADEGBU theory that matter is distributed perfectly throughout the universe? Please present a scientific paper presenting you theory. Please explain your meaning of perfect. Also what about position of matter, do you not know that matter (from atoms, through stars to galaxy) are in a state of constant motion, and they do collide with each other.

Also I have a full Knowledge and understanding of the Evolution of Life, including the evolutionary history of the Homo Species, from the Homo Erectus, to homo Habilis to Hamo sapiens. I fully understand the many failed homo species like Neanderthalis and Cro-Magnon, who existed side by side with Homo Sapiens 150,000 to about 100,000 years ago.

Please stop spreading misinformation, falsehood and stupid assertions.

It always a difficult thing replying you. I know you want to justify your beliefs, so you should concentrate on your beliefs and not dabble in area you have little understanding.

OLAADEGBU, i will not answer the questions you post because it is not worth my time due to its illogical nature, but i will answer the first one which is a question that has hunted the homo species since the development and advancement of the Neocortex.

1. Where did the space for the universe come from?

The answer is nobody really Knows, and the question is really unknowable. But what we do Know from Edwin Hubble's observation that the furthest objects from us (quasars) are all moving away from us at the speed of light, with us at the center. So he deduced that if we reverse the process( expansion), we would have contraction. So according to him all of space and time would have started from a single point some 15 billion years ago in a big bank, and we are seeing a continuation of that expansion today. So that is the best theory we have for the creation of the universe today. If you have a better more logical explanation, I AM ALL EARS.

Your second and third question is related to the first, because matter was a consequence of the big bang, and the laws of the universe are the laws governing the nature and properties of matter in space-time.

Also matter is not perfectly organised through the universe, if it were then matter would not be able to aggregate to form galaxies, planets and humans. so MATTER IS IMPERFECTLY DISTRIBUTED THROUGH THE UNIVERSE,

The reason i even attempted to answer you is to answer to the misinformation in you link website.

The website said the following;
Evolutionists say that biological life forms change in an “upward” direction, becoming more and more complex, through spontaneous mutation of genetic information. However, the word mutation means by definition “copying error.” A mutation is a structural change in the hereditary material which makes the offspring different from the parents. Mutations are errors in copying the genetic codes.

I am so dumbfounded by this sentence, that i almost threw up, how can people pass such false information.

Evolutionist never and i said never said biological life change in an "upward" direction. Evolution happens in all directions and besides there is nothing like upwards directions or downwards directions. Evolution happens across board and those not fitted to the environment would naturally die out and those more fitted to the environment would naturally thrive. Just like in a corporate organisation, an organisation that cannot change with the prevailing market condition quickly would die, while those that can change would thrive.

In evolution there is nothing like spontaneous mutation, mutation is a continuous process, it happens almost in every birth, the problem is of degree, some mutations are more profound than others. That is why we have albinos, dwarfism, blue, green eyes, and so many other profound and subtle changes in offsprings

Aso mutation is not a structural change in the hereditary material which makes the offspring different from the parents. There is no structural change in the genetic material, there are only minor(very minor) changes in the arrangement of a few of the amino acids that make up the DNA.

Honestly, i am tired. I do not think i have the time and temperament to debunk all the deliberate falsehood being propagated by your website but i would tell you that evolution does not say creature must change just for the sake of change. Living things evolves according to the environment and nutrition. If an environment is suited perfectly to an organism, it might not evolve for hundreds of millions of years eg.the Blue Whale. But if condition changes and the living thing want to continue surviving then it must evolve fast enough, eg The Mammoth or Dodo.

Please Mr. OLAADEGBU, talk more on how God Created the world in 7 days using word (hebrew i think), Leave Evolution alone, It is not meant for everbody.

Oga Pastor, wish ones now? you no go left me alone, I go come cause kasala for you o. You neva go shursh, today na sunday o.

My own contribution to this thread is to take it further, from being just pastors and politicians but to look at it as a the NIGERIA FACTOR.

Now probably because of our level of Social evolution (we are coming from absolute monarchy and colonialization), we have not imbibed the habit of accountability, openness and freedom of expression.

Now if you look at all aspects of Nigerian life, the same thing happens.

In our homes, the husband (or breadwinner) is not accountable to the wife and any other person for the family account.

In Our markets, the "Iya Oloja" and members of the executive are not accountable to any member of the market association.

In our Taxi Parks and garages, wo befalls any member who asks how the chairman spends our contributions.

In our Villages, who can ask how the Oba spend the allocations to the kingdom.

Even in our Universities, our student Union Leaders are in absolute charge or the purse.

Then you expect Politicians and Pastors to be different? Of course not they are simply being NIGERIANS.

Things would start changing when we start asking questions of our leaders (collectively that is), be in political, spiritual, social or corporate leaders.

Mr OLAADEGBU

I do not know where to start, your half education on evolution is baffling. That is why i subscribe to the adage half knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge. With your quarter knowledge of evolution you are in a constant flux of confusion, disorientation and intellectual disharmony.

To start to explain evolution to you is like trying to explain Shakespeare to someone who only understands a few words of warri pidgin english, where do u start. To understand evolution you have to have a good grasp of Fundamental Physics, Molecular Biology, Chemistry, anthropology, geology and paleontology. I know it is beyond the grasp of over 99% of nigerians. So Mr. OLAADEGBU stick to your Mesopotamian,Babylonian, and European myths in order to keep your sanity. Leave evolution alone.

I will not try to educate you on evolution but i will tell you that your basic tenet that God (existing before creation and uncreated) suddenly decides to create out of nothing is not a more logical hypothesis that the Big Bang starting out of nothingness ( a mass of energy squeezed into a single point). The difference is that while we are looking for a better explanation for the expanding universe ( the Big Bang is the best at the moment), you people have already found, seen and heard the answer, set in concrete by a masculine (man) God.siting on a golden throne with his son and and angels by his side in this palace court.

One again, forget evolution.

Correction, Jesus was never in the grave for three days, I wonder why christians propagate this falsehood.

JESUS WAS IN A CAVE FROM FRIDAY EVENING AROUND 9:00PM TO AROUND 4:00 AM SUNDAY MORNING, because jewish custom forbids crucifixion on their holy day, sabbath (Saturday). That was why the death of the three convicts had to be accelerated by breaking their legs, ( curiously they did not break Jesus's Legs).

So in effect he "died" for about 30 HOURS (one and a quarter days) and not three days (72 hours)

Truth is not as you say concise, definite, and unchangeable; meaning more than real or genuine;that which was, is, and shall always be real and incorruptible in terms of permanence and lasting - Whilst fact is that which is known, conceded upon or considered to be real or genuine; a stipulation of concession. Meaning there is nothing like universal truth
Also truth is often derived from facts.

Now me use your example, Grass is not always green and i can say grass is not green at all. Before you can understand you have to know what colours really are and why grass appear green to you.

Grass appears green because the sun gives out most of its light in the "green" and "yellow" spectrum and a pigment in plant (chlorophyll) reflects rather than absorb the green light. So the light waves is reflected to your eyes as green. If the sun should reduce the green portion of the light or chlorophyll starts absorbing green light waves, then grass would stop being green, also if person with a colour blindness for green would not see the grass as green.
So what is the truth about the universal colour of grass

Pasto AIO

I appreciate your contributions, I am sorry for thinking you are like the average Nigerian religious fanatic, who believe the only source of information and knowledge available to mankind is the Bible/Quoran. But i see you have really widened your horizon and very knowledgeable in sciences, history, etc. And i have been very impressed by your contributions to javascript:void(0);
Boldthis forum.

I am an Evolutionist to the core. Evolution mean change brought about by changes in conditions, situations and time. Evolution takes place not just physically, but also socially, politically, economically, etc. I trace most problems besetting Nigeria as being traced to our stage of social evolution.
Since you mentioned that
I would agree that thanks to our developed Neo-cortex we have the ability to abstract information from our sense impressions

then you would see how this developed Neo-cortex gives us the ability exhibit higher neurological functions like emotions( love), Morals, inquisitiveness (science), ingeniousness(tools making), foresight ( awareness of the inevitability of death) and religion.

I can also add that at a stage in man's physical evolution, there were at least two Homo species living at the same time about 150, 000 years ago - Homo Sapiens and Homo Neanderthalis. Neanderthal man became extinct while Thinking man (sapiens) went on to rule the earth. Now even Neanderthalis had had developed tools and had religion as witnessed in archaeological cave round Europe, because they had a developed neocortex.

I have a book called " Garden Of Eden" by Carl Sagan, it traces the evolution of the brain and intelligence. I wish you read it.

To me TRUTH is a universal interpretation of a an observable state, effect, condition,event, phenomena. Truth to me must be accepted and verifiable by all and not by a few selected few. truth also must be constant and not subject to interpretation according to the interpreter.

In Genesis, after God was said to have created the world in seven days, although the terms days were not defined because the 24hr day was accepted much later by astronomers, also the first day of the bible was without sunrise and sunset ( the sun was not created yet). So after creation God put Adam in Eden, he then realised he was lonely, so he created a helper, the woman ( i hope you women realize you are helpers).

So after all said and done, God then told Adam that they can eat of all the trees except the one in the centre of the garden, and the day he eats it he will surely die.

Now the talking serpent (snake) came and told Eve, that God saying they would die is a Lie and that if they eat the fruit they would not die but that their eyes would be opened, and they would know the difference between good and evil. (that means up till this point they were robotic morons)

But when Adam and Eve eat the fruit, they did not die, but instead had their eyes opened, and immediately realised that they had been naked all along.

Now God did not realize what had happened until Adam and Eve hid themselves and God Knew they are wiser now and no morons anymore.

In anger God spewed out punishment to them, and God even expressed the fear, that the man he newly created is almost becoming like him and that if he should eat of the fruit of life, then man would be equal to God in every way. So God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden to prevent them from eating of the fruit of Life.

Now the question is Did the serpent tell a lie to Eve? What would have happen to man had they not eaten the fruit? how were they meant to conceive or was the world created initially for only Adam and Eve? Would we have had sciences, Arts, computers, without the knowledge acquired from the fruit?

I need answers

sorry, i meant you learn NOT to accept any concept that does not conform to our reasoning and our view of the world.

Morpheus

I see you are on your way to enlightenment as the Buddhist would say.
It starts by questioning accepted dogma and beliefs, then you learn to accept any concept that does not conform to our reasoning and our view of the world. ( no following any master, guru of priest), then finally you try and find order in the universe ( a universal order that applies to all living things).
I hope you get there.

I for one have suffered a lot of persecution, ridicule and even ostracized, for backsliding from mass appeal religions (christianity), but i have been able to find perfect harmony, peace and order in the universe.

As of you conviction about spirituality, i have been there, i have practiced astral travel, clairvoyance, meditation, etc in my searching days. I stopped all the day i asked what is the purpose and use of it all to me and the universe, and i find none. Anything that is to be of benefit to me alone, without a corresponding benefit to others and the universe as a whole is useless. I have not found spirituality to benefit societies in the past or in the present, except you tell me your definition of sprituality, where are all the so called spiritual societies of the past, the Egyptians, the vikings, the indians, the binis, the ijebus, did the societies advance. the answer is no.

Morpheus,
I love that name, i relate the Morpheus of matrix to real life, most people are helplessly lost in religious dogma.

Although everything cannpt be explain by logic, logic is still the only tool we have at understanding the universe. It was when the Greeks started jettisoning all their primitive religious beliefs and introduced us to Logic that western civilization started its progress.

The good thing about Logic is that it is very fluid, new facts displace old truths as a result of new experiments or new theories, a good example is the archaic dalton's model of the atom compared with bohr's atomic model and finally the modern quantum model of the atom.
But religious dogma's cannot be questioned or changed, one it is said to be written down then it is ment to last forever.

So what is supenatural today might not be so supernatural tomorrow. Also almost everybody has had a form of unexplainable (according to them) experience.

Millco 88,

You are very Lucky to have a wife that is perfect harmony with your psyche/mind/thoughts, I am sure your friend is not the only thought, she has picked from you.
Please can you share other examples of your thoughts and past experiences being in perfect synchrony, you two must TRULY be in love.

The same thing sometimes happens between mother and child and often happens between identical twins

Wow, see what Oyinbos have done to my people, they have turned them to mindless morons with their religion. No wonder they have left the religion to us while they built their societies on sound principles. I hope we do not end up destroying ourselves, with my God is bigger than your God, or my Messiah is more powerful than your prophet or even my man of God is better than your man of God.

God save us from men of God

As i said in other threads, Religion holds us captive, mind body and soul. If you believe in casper the friendly ghost, then you will dream and even see visions of casper in your waking hours. If you are a strong enough catholic, you will see apparitions of Mary. same goes for the bhuddhist, Hindu, sango worshiper, etc.
That is why if you believe in anything strong enough, it will seem to work for you, that is why some religions have existed for thousands of years, it seems to work for its adherents.

Also our most innermost thoughts, fears, aspirations are also played out in out dreams and also those of others very close to us, because i know thought is transferable. That is why i always advise people to control their thoughts as opposed to letting others (priests, gurus, masters, etc) control it for them

My dear Pastor,

If we are discussing matters of faith and believe, I know that I cannot argue with you, but if we are to discuss facts and reason, then you stand no chance. Further more Lala Land which you say I come from is more realistic than fairy land which holds you prisoner.

I will tell you why religion cannot evolve from monotheism to polytheism.
Let me give you a brief background on religion.
Man, because of our highly developed intelligence tries to find out explanations for the forces of nature that affects and governs our lives. Now primitive societies always come up with a god to explain every object, force or process that affects their lives. Then there is the problem of how the world, he (man) and everything else came to be. There are also the problems of the uncertainty of harvest for farming communities and game for hunting societies. So they create the creation god, the Sun god, the moon god, the sky god, the water god, the farm god, the game (animal) god, the fertility god, the mountain god, the river god, the thunder god and so on. In fact you can tell the fears, aspirations and activities of a primitive society by the gods they worship.

A class of people would then naturally emerge to claim to communicate with these gods and act as intermediary between the gods and humans. These priests/shaman would then be given special privileges, wealth, respect and reverence.

Now as people begin to explain natural phenomena better, the number of gods will naturally reduce. You will not need a sun god anymore once you know sun is a natural object, so also thunder, rain, etc.

Finally there would be only one god ascribed with the power to do all other unexplainable phenomena. One of the most unexplainable phenomena is death and what happens after? If there is after life, and religion can feed and exploit this forever.


Pastor, Muslims never claimed than monotheism turns to polytheism. The Arab who are the originators of Islam were a very polytheistic people, in fact Mecca had over a thousand god and pilgrims use to come from far and near to worship at their shrine, It was Mohammed that decreed the worship of one God. I said a society evolves from polytheism to monotheism and not religion. Yes Islam and Christianity are monotheist today, the people that formulated these religions did not start out monotheist.

It is a fallacy to say that every religion is monotheistic, most religions starts out polytheistic. The Yoruba religion you mention had lots of god. Of course there is always a superior or ruler god, there is a hierarchy as in every other religion. In Yoruba religion the superior god is Olorun ( ruler of the sky), then next in command in Olokun ( ruler of the seas), then there is Orunmila (oldest son of olorun), Obatala (creator of man and dry land at Ife), Esu and a host of other gods.

I am at least happy that you still remember some of your indigenous religion, because foreign imported religions always abhor local religions and customs.

I am happy people are beginning to ask questions about religion as a whole, it shows we are making progress, albeit slowly.

I disregarded religion about 25 yrs ago before I was 18. I did this because Christianity which was imposed on me by inheritance (birth) did not make sense, because I was born with a scientific mind and my early heros were Tai Solarin, Albert Einstein and Carl Sagan and I found that that they explained the universe better than any religion can. I am therefore today an ardent Evolutionist and I hope someday to start an Evolutionist movement. (although in Nigeria that would sound like sacrilege).

Religion/ Juju depict the phase of a peoples stage of social evolution.
Primitive societies always starts out with strong beliefs in multiple gods and its accompanying appeasement (juju), then as the society progresses the number of gods reduces until they progress to the point of only ONE GOD.
Then the ultimate progress is when the society evolves to the stage of no god, in that society beliefs change to knowledge, Juju changes to science, injustice changes to justice and hatred, prejudice and intolerance changes to love.

Religion is like science. They attempt to explain the universe and how to exploit and control the forces of the universe for our benefit. That was why in the past when there is thunder and lightening on a mountain top, the primitive society would attribute it to sango, thor (the god Thursday was named after), elohim, etc, but advanced civilization would say it was caused by a potential difference of charge between a charged cloud and the ground.

Another example is if someone has epilepsy a primitive society would say the person has been possessed by a demon and so rewires a witch doctor/shaman/priest, but in more advanced societies they would say it is caused by electrical disturbances in the brain/nervous system so he would need drugs to correct it.

Religion is a prison built for the mind, a prison you cannot escape from, a prison built by a class of people (clergy) to exploit and oppress the populace.
The tool for escape is KNOWLEDGE.

CBT online

I hate religious arguments, it will get one no where, just like political argument. I had lots of religious arguments at university and i can compare it to two people arguing but with different languages.

But just for the sake of it let me take you on some points.

Do you not know that the totality of our being is made for HIS GLORY

Now what do you mean the totality of our being is made for HIS GLORY? Are you saying you are made as a toy for God to play with? or God enjoy watching your actions like a movie.

God loves you so much. Take a look at that those in the hospital. They desire to be
in HIS Presence but they are bedfasted.

Are you saying that the reason people are bed fasted is because they are not worshiping God properly or because of our poor medical services coupled with the unsafe environment in which we live.

Gemini

I feel you, i was in that position about 25 years ago, when going to church became a torture and i did not understand what the whole thing was about ( religion in general and Christianity in particular). Well since then i had gone on a journey of discovery and i am happy to tell you i have found meaning to my life and life in general, and i am very happy and satisfied. Therefore i have done away with religion.

Now i am not advising you to do the same, we must each embark on our voyage of discovery alone. we will all land in different destinations, the most important think to be happy with ourselves and our belief systems. i can only suspect that you are on the road to that journey.

Now having said that i can tell you that Religiosity (as practised by Nigerians) and morality/ prosperity does not go hand in hand, in fact the opposite is the case. In fact i prefer to deal with non religious people than those than say "trust me because i am a child of God"

Let me give you some examples of the damage religion has done to the Nigerian society.
1. Nigeria is one of the most religious countries in the world, we are also one of the most corrupt people on the planet.
2. Leaders will rig themselves into office by killing and cheating and then go on to loot the treasury and justify it by
saying it was God that made it possible for them to attain power.
3. Nigeria is also one of the poorest countries in the world even compared to atheist countries despite all the preaching
of prosperity sunday after sunday.
4. Nigeria in fact have the highest infant and maternal mortality rates in the world, inspite all our night vigils and
prayers, much so that the WHO is worried. Higher than even war torn countries

Also i can safely equate the level of religiosity of a people to the level of injustice, poverty, illiteracy within the country. In countries where there is justice and high level of literacy people would not care much about religion because they know that they do not need to appease the gods to get their daily meals, or need to pray before they embark on a journey in their express way or do thanks giving for delivering a baby safely.

Finally i have found out that Religion is a prison, a prison for your mind, a prison that once you enter you can almost not get out, never. Only very very few can ever enter and escape the prison.

I subscribed to the Visaphone internet about a month ago and i have had a terrible experience. I live on the outskirt of Ikorodu, so my choice was highly limited and i wanted a broadband service. Starcomms signals are strong here but their evdo service does not reach here.

There are problems with visaphone, too numerous to mention, but here are a few.
The broadband (evdo) service is non existent, most of the time it is the 1x service that is on, once the evdo lights up, you download stops until it changes back to 1x. It seems they are still test running the evdo. I Thought that it was because of my remote location that made evdo service impossible, so i took my laptop to their saka tinubu office to try it out. Still i could not find evdo service, Although the 1X was faster as the signals were full, also i met a lot of people with the same complaint. To me it is daylight robbery for someone to pay for broadband and get dial up.

Also their signal can go off any minute, in fact where i am, the signals fluctuates so wildly, that you have to log in again due to service disconnection.

The most annoying one is even if you have full signals, the service would enter dormant mode and until it leaves the dormant mode you download will be suspended.

Then the customer care is non existent, since i do not have a visaphone line, when i tried with my MTN line, i was told my waiting time would be 36mins, i immediately cut the line and resign to fate.

The verdict is if you do not intent to do any serious work beyond sending email and chatting, then you can manage visaphone, but if you intend to do serious work then visaphone is a no-no.

Finally, the state of service delivery in Nigeria is getting from bad to worse, be it internet, Light, transport, water, everything. we pay exorbitant prices for mediocre services.

@ Holymic.

Bravo for you heavy dose of patriotism, it is infectious. But I can assure you that if you come home and invest in agriculture as you propose, you will run back to where you are coming from in less than 2 years.
Lots of other highly patriotic Nigerians have thread that path in the past, and have almost always been frustrated back.

Do not misunderstand me i am as patriotic as you. My grouse is that you cannot develop without a common vision, common agenda, common sacrifice, common goal.

I have read a lot of history and I know all developed countries today had a horrible time building their societies. Europe passed through a lot, famine, wars, diseases, dictatorship, etc. But the people decided to fight for a common goal to build a common future.

Also the first American Immigrants died of starvation, poverty and exploitation in the hands of their colonial masters. Then there were wars with the british, with the indians and with themselves. At the end of the day the decided to form a common agenda, a common vision

African on the other hand want everything ready made, our main problem in Africa is than we want prosperity without the commensurate work and effort (little work, big rewards). But in building societies, the reverse is the norm, little or no reward for large effort.

Let me go back to you Holymic
Investing in agriculture is not child's play in today's world, you need a lot of government's and communal support in all facet of agriculture.
From acquisition of land including (land use laws), to machinery (cost and maintainance), to the actual farming itself ( seedling, weeding and protection from pathogens) to harvest and post harvest operations including storage.
Then the biggest problem is distribution and marketing ( with terrible roads). A typical example is tomatoes, the cost of a basket of tomatoes in the farms is less than N200 but after using N200,000 to transport the tomatoes from north to lagos (including spending 4-5days on the road), the cost of a basket of tomatoes in lagos would cost N1,200-N1,500.
So everybody looses, farmer and consumers.

Also remember, all industrialized countries subsidize their farmers because of the uncertainties of yeild, etc. In nigeria government Tax agriculture (legally and illegally)

@Poster
I am an architect, but i have quite a lot of knowledge about electricity, I ca help you with your question

Airconditioner - The power rating depends on the horse power of your compressor, 1hp appoximates 760watts,
you need a starting power of about 3 times the power rating to get it started (starting current)

Refrigerator - Same thing as an airconditioner as it uses a compressor.

Plasma TV - I am not sure but I know they consume power more than any other types of TV. It also depends on the
size. I guess it is between 300 - 600 watts. Check the back of the TV.
Computer - I am guessing Desktop, I reckon it is between 200 - 400 watts.

Electric Iron - Usually between 1000 - 1500watts

Lamp Holder - It depends on the type of bulb, it is clearly written on the bulbs

Water Pump - Also depends on the horse power (hp)

DVD AND DECODER consume very little power somewhere between 15 - 30 watts

Music Set depends on the wattage of your speakers.



I hate generators because i believe it is not economical in the long run (with the increasing cost of fuel and an end to power shortage not in sight. So i installed a very simple cheap system using an ordinary UPS with a 120 AH battery, It serves me with the basic power to run my TV Lights (energy saving bulbs) and fans for four hours when fully charged. The whole set up cost me less than N15,000. The Light situation in Ikorodu is good.

You cannot power all those appliances using Solar, the cost will run into some millions. To run a Solar system, you need three components,
I solar panels - A panel is between N20,000 - 30,000 and you will need quite a lot.
A battery system to store the charge from the solar panels, you will also need over 10,000Ah of battery for your needs
An inverter to convert the DC from the battery to AC. Any inverter over 10kv will run into millions and it has to be specially ordered.

My advice to you is to only attempt to run the basic appliances like lights, TV, DVD, music set, fans and maybe fridges with either solar or a charger(to charge the battery when there is NEPA) or a combination of bath. How long it will last will depend on consumption and number of your batterries.

I hope i have helped

Skyblue

I want to dispel a lot of wrong notions that you have;

If the fines are reasonable and payable, people with rather pay than bribe. Let me give you one example, of when i decided not to bribe.
I was going for a 8:30 appointment one morning at V/I, I was leaving surulere through stadium. At the bus stop opposite stadium, the danfo drivers had blocked the side road turning right, so i went straight towards stadium gate and turn sharp right joining cars coming from under the bridge (opposite Teslim Balogun Stadium). Immediately I turned LASMA officials from hiding jumped in front of my car, I stopped and asked what is happening. They said I took one way, i explain that it was not one way, they insisted it was. I said they should show me the sign. They said it has just been declared one way and the sign was not ready. I was so enraged that i decided not to bribe. They impounded my car,
then a tow van came from under the bridge to tow my car. I insisted on driving to their office and that their men should enter my car, they refused. Now the distance from Stadium to their office at Iponri is less than 2km. About 30m from their office the tow van broke down and i had to drive the remaining distance. After entering their office, i was given a fine of N5,000 for driving one way and N2,500 for towing of my car. I complained to every senior officer that i could fine with no avail. I was also informed that my fine will increase by N500 per day that my car spends on their office.


To pay the fines, I had to go to GTB Ikeja to get a teller (by taxi of course), then take the teller to Alausa to get a release letter, before coming back to Ipronri to get my car. By the time I got back to Iponri, it was already 4:00pm, and they close at 4, so i had to bribe to get my car out or else i would have come back the next day.
So when i say i would rather pay a bribe of N5,000, i know the trauma of paying fines in lagos

Another wrong notion is that the ruling elite can be lawless while asking the ordinary people to be lawful. Let me state categorically that:- A SOCIETY IS AS LAWFUL AS ITS LEADERS.
In england a minister can be in Jail for a mere traffic offense, In the US a senator can go to jail for an unappropriated behavior (sex). So the ordinary citizens dare not break the law.

Skyblue

Yes i understand there is a problem of implementation, but the exorbitant fines itself would defeat its implementation. i would rather pay N5,000 illegally than pay N50,000 legally. All the new fines would do in increases the illegal fines for traffic offense (real or concocted) from the present N500 to N3,000 (depending on thew severity of the violations to between N5,000 to N10,000. the traffic officers would be doing thanksgiving because of the new law now.

Skyblue, if the fines are N5,000 and enforced religiously without "partia" i am sure it would have its desired effect.

About fining passengers, why stop with passengers, why do u not charge a withness to a murder with the murderer for not stopping the murder. What about tax evaders, criminals and 419, in fact it should be written in our constitution, any body that witnesses a crime and does nothing to stop it is liable for the crime.

Nigeria only punishes ordinary people for petty crimes, the Yerimas of the world are in the senate, while the Jaga's have their hand chopped off for stealing a goat. Also it is only in Nigeria that a court would find that an election is massively rigged, but the riggers are not liable for punishment, now which is a more serious crime to a society, election rigging(treason) or traffic violations.

I thought i am through with this post, but the same old stupid argument keeps cropping up.

Skyblue, your arguments are warped, it does not make legal, social or even intellectual sense, i think you and your supporters are having "Military" hangover for the past 9 years.

Let Start by informing you that i have lived in Lagos and have been driving almost daily for the past 22years and have experienced the evolution and effects of traffic laws in Lagos. I had been apprehended and fined (illegal fines of course) so many times, that i have lost count on so many frivolous excuses by almost all the numerous traffic regulation agencies, i believe me I ALWAYS obey traffic laws. I can give you numerous examples, but one of the most annoying one was the one at Ikeja. I was on my way to Iyana Ipaja though Ikeja, I was trying to link the Oshodi express way from the link road from Ikeja Bus stop. When i a big sign with three arrows pointing right in front after the council, I was not sure what it meant, i was not sure whether to go straight or turn right. I stopped in the junction, and sighted a yellow fever by the council building, I then stuck my head out of the window and called him, I then asked him if the road was a one way, he answered yes. But the added that he was arresting me. In suprise, i said what for, he then said for taking one way, I was mad, as iwas still in the junction and had not even crossed the junction yet. He got into my car, called the rest of his colleagues, and order that i enter the council building.
I resisted leading to a fight, with passer's bye interferring. At the end of the day i parted with N1000 before i was let go. This is just one example, I have too many.

Now for the law itself;
It is only a mad man that expects a different effect from the same action under the same conditions.
Ten years ago, the fines were barely N1000 and the argument was that the fines are too small and it does not discourage offenders, so it was hiked to about N5000, and every other year it is hiked further. The present one is between N10,000 to N25,0000 and an offender is to undergo psychological evaluation (costing a further N5,0000).
Now has the spade of traffic violations stopped or even reduced? Do you think if the fines is hiked to N200,000, the situation would improve? I am waiting for the result of this latest hike.

What pains me most is the bashing the poor average Nigerian faces. He is blamed for everything that befall nigeria, he is blamed for corruption, lawlessness, etc meanwhile the actual people causing all our problems go unpunished. Have you ever heard or seen a big man being held for mere traffic violations in Nigeria. No in Nigeria, a "BIG MAN" is above
the law.

The annoying thing is that Nigerian believe that Law is an end unto itself, so lawyers argue letters and words of the law, leaving out the essence and what the law was meant to correct.

Method-Man:
I disagree with you on NUCLEAR

Truely nuclear energy has its potential advantages but it doesnt present a strong case due to the overwhelming disadvantages!

I strong believe the future of the world energy is RENEWABLES (biofuels, wind, solar, hydro etc.)

Renewables have huge problems as a future energy source.
Biofuels - Not with the shrinking size of agricultural land due to desertification, urban development and climate change, there would be hardly enough food to feed our exploding population not to talk of using the food to produce biofuels.

Wind and solar can only produce limited power.

Hydro, the rivers we have is already over exploited and they are drying up. Are we going to created rivers?

I am very surprise that some Nigerians support the outrageous fine for just traffic offense, i am sure that these are not lagosians. If you have loved in lagos for any leght of time, the you will have the experience of trying to keep your sanity after spending 6 - 8 hour at Lagos Ibadan Expressway (redeem camp) or after a heavy downpour or accident on any major road.

I do not support breaking traffic rules, but it is wrong to blame and punish poor suffering Lagosians living on the edge of existence. Why do you supporter not ponder why the insane lagosian becomes very normal once he leaves lagos and travels to other capital cities of the world. How do you expect people to pay N50,000, when the average monthly wage is less than N30,000. Take a good look at most of the cars on Lagos roads, they are just managing to be road worthy. I also wish the Government, Police, Lastma, Lawma, VIO, Yellow fever, Kia brigade, and others too, should have some form of fines and punishment for negligence of duty, As a lot of traffic is deliberately cause by them, so that their agents can collect money from commercial drivers and other road users for alleged offenses.

The problem with lagos traffic is not the laws as the fines are already very steep, It is in the implementation of the laws, the officials collect their own special fees for various offences, with the lagos state government getting little or nothing. If and when the various agencies decides to earn their wages, the traffic situation in lagos would improve.

Even if the fines are imposted correctly as it is before the increase, most people would be forced to abandon their cars at the various agencies offices. Go to your nearest lastma office and see the number of abandoned vehicles.


@Skyblue
You are talking as if we are in an idea society, when you say people chose to flout the law and so should face the consequences, i would ask you which people? The reason ordinary people flout the law is because the see different categories of people break the law with impunity and nothing happens and in fact the are celebrated for being able to break the law ( a sort of status symbol). We have Politicians, Uniformed men (any uniform, even boys scout and NYSC), Big men and even Judges break the law, so people also follow them in breaking the Law. You will find out that when you see people driving one way, it would have been initiated by big men (untouchables)