₦airaland Forum

Aboguede:
I have read most of your comments on this topic and I am also in the western world too but like I said b4 a cow can not bear an elephant!

You give what u have. Environment is what u make of it., the entire world is the same.

Ciao

Ok. Thanks.

RisenPhoenix1:
What does an adult African man have to fear from his parents or elders? It's not about fear, but it's ingrained. For example, I could never consider abandoning my parents in a home for the elderly, and not because I'm afraid of them, or my community, but because I know inwardly that it's wrong. Western culture does not engender any attachment to parents or resect for elders, and in fact, provides children with an opportunity to be indisciplined.

Acting in community expectation can always be defined as being caged. But if it really was, then we should consider drug dealers, robbers, kidnappers and murderers as the more pragmatic individuals who have become independent of the 'societal cage'. Disrespect for parents and other elders may not be criminal, but it's morally wrong...which is why society condemns it, just as it condemns other anti social behaviour.

True this.

Let me exclude parents cause we all love our parents. An African who respects his elders at any age could still be said to fear what people would if he does otherwise. An African who respects his boss is choiceless. I appreciate respect if it's given when there's no implication of doing otherwise. How do Africans treat uber drivers, employees, the artisans, the poor ones, etc? How do Africans treate women? How do Africans address people when they're in charge? Brother, I do not think Africans respect fellow humans half as much people do out here.

As for societal cages, those who do drugs aren't pragmatic and it's not fair to use them as examples of people free of societal cages cause many of them are from Nigeria where these societal cages are strong. It can be argued that they do these to meet up with societal expectations of what people of their ages are expected to have or be doing at that stage. So it might still burn to down societal cages. Breaking away from societal cages doesn't mean you'd become wayward. It means you'd become fearless in pursuing your goals: study what you want, marry when you want and whom you want, etc.

ABCthingx:
constomer care can be super polite and that doesn't mean that the handler is moral

True but I live here and I don't really need customer care to know how the people really are.

jaxxy:
Physical suffering plays some part in experience take it or leave it. Even in America there are ghettos. Also why do u think they have boot camps training Tune u up physically and mentally.

Physical exercise is good for the health. Stress is not. Experience is good. Suffering is not. People suffer cause they don't have any alternative and not because they need it. The only thing we need is what will equip us for the future where we live and how can using candles to read or fighting for danfo equip someone who lives in a country where there's no danfo? I never said there aren't ghettos here. That was never the bonne of contention. But thinking about it, even those in the grottos still use the available public transport system, etc. My point is that the "necessary suffering" mustn't be in Africa.

Nevertheless, it's just an opinion. Thanks for your input.

RisenPhoenix1:
From my experience, an African upbringing teaches children to feel respect for the community and develop better social values. It also teaches the kids to be resourceful, hardy and ambitious; with their parents' guidance of course. I, along with my brothers and sister were raised abroad, but we spent virtually all our holidays with our no-nonsense grandparents in Nigeria; which is what saved us somewhat. One of my cousins who was not so lucky was killed in a knife fight over drugs, and another was forced to enlist in the military by his father because of his thuggish behaviour. Other cousins have had their issues too.

Added to that is the fact that coloured children abroad tend to have even more issues with discipline than the whites. I would advise any responsible wife to stay back home with her kids and let their father go hustle abroad until he has enough startup money for a business of his choice. He can then come back, establish a business and retire early. It's good to have an occasional trip on holidays though, and I absolutely endorse their being permitted to go and study in a good university when they have already grown and are less influenced by their environment.

Thanks for this input. I kind feel Africans only respect people with they have to. They respect elders, bosses, parents, superiors, etc. They don't respect people they feel superior to either cause of age or social status. And that's cause respect to them is a function of fear. Again, they act in conformity to community expectations but that's more like societal cages to me. But that's just a personal opinion. Thanks again

crackhaus:
Absolutely not.

And it's not because I consider the African system of raising kids to be archaic (quite the opposite), but simply because I won't need to.


Honestly, I do not believe it does.

As a matter of fact and from personal experiences so far, the culture shock which most of these returned kids experience, usually pushes them to get involved in worse vices than they would have been involved in if left alone.

If such moves should be made at all, I'd rather it be when they are much younger (between age 4 – 13) and certainly not as teenagers.

Thanks for this.

seyz91:
for bachelors like me on this forum, got an advice for you

nomatter what you do, make sure you give birth or raise your unborn kids in Western World

i repeat "make sure"

Sure! I was raised here. If I say I've got any issue with raising my kids here, that would mean I've got issues with myself.

Aboguede:
All this are baseless arguments


How can a devil make an angel?

The only thing that makes children misbehave are their parents!

How can idiots raise good children?

Ok... You don't think environmental factors matter?

quickly:
tribal mark or tatto which is worst.

AFricans have always had body markings. my great grand mother had her name tattooed on her body and also some other things.

Tatto has been around fo long

I agree.

BigDawsNet:
Well I didn't mention anything like "spoilt" but the only difference from those kids in Lagos and Abuja with the Northamerica is that they are discipline... They are not spoilt like the foreign kids and they don't abuse their parent...no kids in Nigeria will dial 911 ...

they're never disrespectful, they follow the lifestyle of Nigeria and their parents are very happy these kids are growing up in Nigeria because they can learn how to be respectful..

I'm not sure if people still send their kids to Nigeria this days to learn how to be a good kid

I only know of my cousin that sent his son to Nigeria for few months so he can drop in weight

Your last paragraph

I didn't mean spoilt in that sense though. I meant "posh".

Talking about respect, do you think a grown up Nigerian is more respectful to fellow humans than a grown up Canadian? I would say no (just my opinion). Africans only respect elder or bosses or guardians or anyone superior to them. And that's because respect in Africa is mostly out of fear. Asides from these people they fear, they couldn't care less about others. Whereas a Canadian employer respects everyone including the gateman. That's because respect to them isn't forced, it's generally believed that everyone deserves it. We have deviants but don't let Hollywood deceive you, kids here don't necessarily grow into miscreants.

jaxxy:
Just like we learn more from failure than success, we learn alot of things from suffering and only experience can teach u some of it. It’s no mistake Many of best minds and achievers suffered at one point in time.

Yes but not physical suffering. I don't know how carrying a bucket of water or reading with candles or fighting for a bus would help anyone in the American society. Lol. But I'm open to learning more.

sportybet117:
Have you been to the western world?

You won't be making this statements

Me ? I was raised here in North America. Though I visit Nigeria occasionally.

Kayberg:
A bad child will be bad.
A good child will be good.
A good child can still become bad.
A bad child can still become good.
It's not a matter of training or suffering.

You don't believe in environmental factors and influences?

SocialJustice:
Very sensible post. I pray people learn.

Thanks bro!

SatanicPriest:
abobo allow me book space in peace na

Haha... Sorry sir.

jaxxy:
Africa? No bf African culture and training while living in the west is much better. The leaning from suffering part Has it’s positive aspects to create or broaden perspectives bt that can be achieved via visits.

But why "suffer" while that energy can be channeled to creativity?

DontBullshitMe:
I like what I have read.

So give your input.

SatanicPriest:
tte

What?

RisenPhoenix1:
The best upbringing is mainly African with occasional trips abroad to open their eyes to possibilities.

Thanks. Any reason for this take?

BigDawsNet:
Yes, Nigeria is a good place if you are rich

We have couple of reserved area for the rich and wealthy in Lagos ,Abuja

This kids live a foreign life in Nigeria

They have access to everything you can have access to in abroad while inn nigeria
They are fresher than kids in North America

If they are as "spoilt" as their counterparts in North America, why then would anyone send his kids home to 'suffer small' and be more hardworking/respectful/organized?

crackhaus:
This.

I believe that as Nigerians, we just love to have it both ways all the time. The same Nigerians who prefer to live a life of unbelief and would rather do away with religions that instill positive values, also turn around to complain that their children are not respectful and well-behaved.

I wonder where these children are supposed to learn good behaviour and morals from when they were not introduced to and made to adhere to any religion that espouses such.
The assumption that just the words and corrections from a parent would be enough to keep a 21st century child in line, is foolhardy.

The real questions should be;
What has a parent taught their child(ren) to believe in?
What higher power do they revere?
Do these children feel obligated to live according to the tenets of this higher power?

Hhmm... I don't really know why people tend to believe the US is irreligious. It's only a very small part of the population that identifies as atheist. The country is secular in the sense that religion isn't used as the basis for making laws. But the citizens have and maintain their respective religions.

Again, do you really think the parents need religion as a tool to make thier kids respectful? I personally don't think morality is primarily function of religion. But that's just a personal opinion. I don't think any people in the world are as polite as Canadians (sometimes, the over politeness could be sickening if not deceiving). But yet, they are North Americans.

So would you send your kids to Africa like my friend plans to do?

descarado:
In Nigeria alone we are forming team foreign accent.
Gosh. An Indian, Chinese etc is in far away America still cruising his accent while in naija, I want to speak English more than the queen.
Ogaa o.

Lmao... This part got me laughing.

Ok. I don't know about accents but speaking clearly such that others won't have a problem understanding you is very important if one intends to live in any of the 6 countries where English is native, and I think Africans do it better. I can go on about how difficult it could be to understand a first generation immigrant from India but I don't want to sound racist.

So you think it's cool to send kids to Africa at thier teenage age?

crackhaus:
If anyone said this to me, I would ask him to first go to his Asian/Middle-eastern friends, then ask them what they are doing that makes their own kids respectful and organized.

crackhaus:
You'll see a 10year old son/daughter of first generation Chinese, French, Japanese, Thai, or Indian immigrants, speaking their local dialect so fluently... While their 10yr old Nigerian counterparts can't make a complete sentence in Yoruba, Igbo, or Bini, without reverting to English.

You may have some point given the fact that Asians don't usually think about sending thier kids home except when the family wants to travel. But then, that could also be because Asians have much elaborate communities in the western world than Africans do. You can't hardly see a big city without it's own China town. I heard even Lagos has one. There are many Asian schools where their languages are used. Bedsides, English is our national language unlike these people you mentioned.

But these aside, what's your take on sending kids home at thier teenage age? Does it really make them better?

etrange:
It has quickly become a woman thing. Nairaland men always quick to call out the opposite gender at the slightest provocation. Oga, how many of your relatives abroad have been kicked out of thier houses by their wives? How man Nairalanders have been kicked out of thier houses by thier wives? Which law permits a woman to kick out her husband at will? Can you details out how the legal system favours women to men in marriage?

African men find it hard to come to terms with the fact that this is not Africa where they get away with anything. Women and men have equal rights. You don't hit someone and walk away. If you don't want to pay huge alimony in the case of divorce, let your wife work like you do and share the housekeeping with her. Everything is based on the concept of equality. So let's stop "we men are the victims abroad" narrative. The truth is is that we aren't used to the egalitarian system

OK, nice input as well.

Ok... let's not make this another women/men debate. I'm more interested in knowing if raising a kid in Nigeria is really better. And though I visit Nigeria often enough, I'd like to hear from those who live or lived in the country.

Thanks!

Greatfullheart:
she wasn't spotted; according to reports...

She wasn't there and the lady I quoted said she deserved the award. Lol.

madridguy:
Though I have not been outside Nigeria before but what the Arab cabbie said is absolutely correct. I can remember clearly a thread on this platform where the UK police held a seminar with Nigerian women living in the UK to stop sending their husband away.
Many comments on the thread broke my heart and I can't imagine what Nigerian men are suffering in the hand of their wives simply because they know the law in western countries favor women.
My point is that no way a woman can raise a child alone. On the same thread also, many people shower their praises on Asian women, pointing out how submissive they are despite earning well more than Nigerian women.

I appreciate this input but I don't really think Nigerian men are "suffering" in the hands of thier women abroad. At least, none of my friends is. No woman really wants her husband to suffer. Anybody that leaves out here can tell you both men and women must work hard to sustain the family. It is not very practical to expect the man to pay all the bills considering the income/expense structure. Likewise, it's unfair to expect a woman who works the number of hours you work to always do the cooking, serve you, do the laundry, clean the house, prepare the kids for school, etc. like they're expected to do in Africa. Everybody has to adjust. Problem arises when one party refuses to adjust. In addition, both spouses have equal rights to the house and no one has the right to kick the other out without a court order. And to obtain a court order, you'd have to prove the other partner is abusive or constitutes a threat. So anyone "kicked out" was either abusive or just decided to give the other some space.

Despite everything you've heard, except in child custody cases, the legal system in the US/Canada isn't necessarily structured to favour women. It only tries to give both genders equal footing. I said 'try' cause in reality, only the legal systems in Belgium, Denmark, France, Latvia, Luxembourg and Sweden claim absolute equality today. Women are better off today that they were yesterday but still very far from being equal to men. For someone from Africa, it's understandable how any legal system that advocates for equality would appear as if it's in favour of women considering the African culture. But marriage works like friendship here, they can last forever without the dom/sub relationship and at the same time, anyone can pull out anytime.

tommy589:
Most of those Indians and asians have religions that are indigenous to them

Hhmm... is this really a factor? Islam may not be originally African but I don't think a Nigerian child born into Islam and and an Indian Child born into Hinduism are any different in terms of how they perceive their religion. I mean, the muslim child doesn't get less indoctrinated because the religion didn't originate from his place. Just thinking

etrange:
I've had this argument several times. Our pride is all we've got going for us as Africans but we should know when to draw the line. You want to send a child to Africa at his formative age knowing fully well that that's exactly when he needs to be enjoying all the western world has to offer? Foundations are laid in secondary schools, don't let your child miss out on that. Americans are known for inventions while Nigerians are known for scamming. Stereotyping is wrong cause we have both good and bad people everywhere but think about it, are kids really better of in a country like this? I don't think. I think a kid that will be good will be good regardless of where he's raised.

Well said, bro.

Klass99:
Okay.

@ Topic, I am undecided but something an Arab cabbie in the UK said to a friend has stuck with me.

He said, in all his time of being a cabbie conveying people/families around, he noticed that kids of indians and asians, held on to their cultural values, tend to be respectful and not easily influenced or carried away by the negative aspects of Western culture.

However, when it came to us Africans (he specifically mentioned Nigeria and other African countries) he noticed our kids tend to be disrespectful, eager to embrace the negative aspects of western culture and discard theirs, while the parents seem overwhelmed and at a loss on how best to handle their own kids.

He went on to narrate an interaction between a son and a mother in his cab of Nigerian origins that enraged him and broke his heart at the same time, but he stayed out if it. The boy was being extremely rude to his mother to a point where she became teary and all.

I truly don't know which climate is better for raising kids, but that cabbie's observations was or is food for thought. I like what the person above me (etrange) said particularly in her last sentence

That's an interesting take and it's probably not far from the truth. Some people from 'closed cultures' feel liberated when they move to a society where diversity in terms of personality and lifestyle is ok. They don't have to worry about what people will say anymore. You know, just like a 'caged' child who recently got into the university.

But Asians have closed cultures too. Perhaps, the existence of well established Asian communities (China town, Punjabi areas, schools, etc) in the western world makes thier case different.

Thanks.

Klass99:
What's going on with you? Is the matter too weighty to start writing?

Sorry, I got distracted.

An African friend always argue that kids are better of raised in Africa. He said he'd send his two boys to Nigeria so they'd know what life is all about. I asked him "what life is all about", he said hardship, blackouts, etc. He said kids raised in the Americas aren't respectful and organized cause they didn't suffer. And that brings me to the topic of this thread. Is the Nigerian style of raising kids really the ideal model? I just want to share my opinion on the things my friend mentioned as reasons to send his boys to Africa: respectful and organized and the need to "suffer small" (his words).

Respectful: In the Nigerian society, elders don't usually explain to kids why they shouldn't do some things; they just authoritatively ask them not to do it and the kids better not ask why. Kids grow up respecting thier elders out of fear (and not admiration or love). The implication of this is that they do a lot things without their patents' knowledge, and they get used to this "hidden lifestyle" that makes it almost impossible for parents to truly know thier children. This in turn denies the parents the opportunity to identify and correct some unwanted behaviours as the kids always tell them just what they want to hear. And then it's only a matter of time before some of these kids outgrow the fear and reveal their true personalities (good luck with your mystery parcel at this point). Whereas in the Americas, kids are engaged and not commanded. You can easily tell the direction your child is headed.

Organized: He said kids raised in Africa are more organized and not crazy like their American counterparts who do all sorts of things like tattoos, plastic surgery, etc. Yes, Americans have a lot of deviants, but that's why new ideas/findings pop up everyday. I believe Africans force thier youngsters to fit into a predefined pattern of life and thereby reducing the chances of creativity. In Africa, you are supposed to go to school, get a job, get married and make children (and there are ages for all these). Then your children will do the same and the cycle continues. This "organised" pattern is the African dream; it is more important than any other dream or even the world itself, and any deviation is frowned upon. Africans think it's a crazy for a man to dedicate his life to studying mosquitoes even if that's his dream (yet Africans are the most affected by these killer insects), Africans think it's crazy for a woman to say she ain't getting married but would rather use her money to adopt and raise orphaned kids. A friend I was teaching software development had to quit cause "he didn't have time anymore". According to him, he had gotten to the age of marriage. And you wonder why nothing spectacular comes out of this continent? Alternative lifestyles might be scary but that's the wheel of progress.

"Suffer small": This one makes me laugh and I usually use it to tease my friend. Kids don't need to suffer small. Kids need the skills that would make them survive in their environment. If carrying water, fighting for a bus, using candles and going to the farm equip the child for the African life, great (just don't overdo it). But that's not necessarily a model. It's something they do out of necessity. A kid who is born in North America does not need to go to Africa to "suffer small". I don't even own a bucket as an adult and I'll probably never buy one. A kid born here needs DIY skills amongst others.

I don't have a problem with some people wanting their kids to go to Africa to learn thier culture but I don't subscribe to the idea that kids raised in Africa are better off. What do you think?

You guys just like senseless headlines. She beats someone who wasn't even there? As if unnecessarily pitting people against each other wasn't enough, you came up .N250m. Who writes N250k as .N250m? This one isn't creativity, bro. It's just off.

**Edited**
OP, thanks for updating the title.