₦airaland Forum

@Pastor debosky,

Don’t tell me I have to wait till Sunday morning to get that sermon   I believe you have week day services on-going  

debosky:
If I recommend you do what I do, with good faith, there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
If it is not worth recommending to anyone, then it is WRONG in itself - and we both know it isn't.

debosky:
you cannot remove the validity of giving 10% using the OT as a guide, and recommending same to others.

By recommending to others, I do not prevent them from deciding to do as they wish; the decision on what to do is still down to the individual.

debosky:
2. Recommending to another Christian does not take away anyone's freedom. I do not take your freedom away by saying I follow a practice and it can be a guide for you as well if you CHOOSE to do so.

debosky:
In any case, I fully agree that tithing should be de-emphasised, and more time spent teaching giving without undue 'setting apart' of tithes. While doing that, there is no need to 'eliminate' as it were any reference to tithing.

What is the basis for recommending 10%, why not 5% or 15% or 50%, why 10%? You should know a good number of people don’t sit in church (with the pastor preaching) for the fun of it. They sit and listen because of the trust and confidence they have in the pastor. As a pastor, you must choose your words with great care because of the impact on the congregation. Your recommendation is likely to cause more damage than good in the long run. If Zikkyy gives 50% of his income to charity, why recommend that same amount to my brother? If Zikkyy gives 0% of income, why recommend same? i.e. I give 0%, I think you all should do same. My sincerity does not matter here as I could be wrong. There is also the risk of turning him into a robot debosky. Preaching giving on percentages that have no basis is wrong. I will not be teaching true Christian giving when I set percentages. Let the heart do the motivation, let (unconditional) love lead him.

If Paul had instructed the Corinthians to set aside 30% of their income as collections for the church at Jerusalem, maybe you will be recommending 30% today as the base amount for charitable contribution to support other brothers & sisters in need. I am happy he didn’t set a percentage amount. I also wonder why you don’t recommend that we sell our properties and bring to a pool for redistribution just like the early believers. There is no need to eliminate reference to tithing. There is a motivation for these actions, and that is what we should reflect on debosky.

garyarnold:
The New Health Care law in the US adds a tithe to the cost of tanning services.

Employers must withhold a tithe more in state income taxes.

The tax change means people who would have paid a tithe, will now have to pay a double tithe.

Jun 2, 2010 , Business tax receipts down a tithe.

The Recovery Act also provided a tax credit for plug-in electric drive conversion kits. The credit is equal to a tithe of the cost of converting a vehicle to a qualified plug-in electric drive motor vehicle and placed in service after Feb. 17, 2009.

You got a good sense of humor gary. I like this.

debosky:
What we should emphasise is that giving is from the heart and not a matter of compulsion,

It would really be nice to see how this fit into your sermon. I will be paying my 10% after your sermon, if you’re willing to accept an e-cheque

debosky:
To surmise, you have not come up with any coherent argument to remove the validity of Abram's example, or Jacob's or the one mentioned in Deuteronomy 26:12, as guides for giving for a Christian. As long as those examples are valid and were acceptable to God, they can be preached loud and clear - as long as not regarded as an obligation.

This is the part that worries me. How exactly are you going to preach this?

Some suggestions from zikkyy;

‘As Christians we should at all time strive to give up 10% of our income just like daddy Abraham’
‘Like Daddy Abraham, let’s all give 10% of our income’
‘Daddy Abraham gave 10%, as Christians the lower thresh-hold of our giving is set at 10%. If you can give more, give more but never less’
‘10% should be the base for giving, anything less is not acceptable by God’

Don’t you think this will be contradicting zero thresh-hold giving as preached in the NT. How do you reconcile both giving? So Pastor debosky, confuse convince me, let hear that sermon.

Gary made a comment in post 305, what exactly are you going to call this giving? Let hear you debosky, I am really interested.

Image123:
@ogagim
And nothing is missing from your own christian life, I guess. You've got it all worked out and good to go. Such hypocritic sanctimony.

What exactly is the problem Image123 lets hear it. I am sure we can resolve our differences.

viaro:
@Zikkyy,
I'm very sorry, didn't mean to spoil things at all for anyone.

You are forgiven Viaro 

debosky:
It all depends on your outlook.

Anyway you look at it; tithe is difficult to preach. Even if you preach it as a guide, you are still going to end up locking a good number Christians to a giving level of 10% in the long run.

debosky:
It all depends on your outlook.

My personal belief is that the 10% stated in the OT can be preached as a guide - if giving in the OT was mandated at 10%, we should aspire to give this amount and more.

Giving was not mandated at 10%. There were various categories of tithe. Also, the tithe to the Levites becomes 12.5% if you have to pay cash (buy-back).

debosky:
My firm belief is that we should de-emphasise the 10% or tithe, but it should not become taboo simply due to abuse by some persons. It is a legitimate form of giving that pre-dates the law or any form of 'mandatory' giving, so it should not be discarded because it has been used for wrong motives.

There is no harm in rightly using examples of OT giving. Giving 10% to your church is not a bad thing if done with sincere love and appreciation of the Almighty. Some people say they give 10% of their income to the church as their contribution to the spread of the gospel, I think it’s a beautiful thing to do. But you can’t preach it debosky, that’s the problem.

debosky:
That things were 'mandated' or not should not stop us from doing them if we are so inspired by the Holy Spirit in line with Jesus' teachings.

Give as you are inspired, and feel free to use the giving of the Israelites in the OT to inspire yourself.

This i can subcribe to 

viaro:
Your "lending" may be in view of hoping for nothing again; but immediately after that statement is the fact that the giver surely has a REWARD! In fact, it says that your reward shall be great! It has nothing to do with the accusation that someone is greedy for material gain; rather, that verse there says that there is a "reward" for giving.

The man that gives only because there is some expected return is greedy for materially gains. His actions are un-Christ-like.

viaro:
@Zikky,

How are you?

I am cool.

viaro:
I agree with Image123 on Luke 6:38. He was spot on

Honestly I wanted Image123 to respond himself. Now you spoilt my fun Viaro. The man is certainly going to hide behind you when and if he responds to my post.

Image123 post was a response to a post I made to gary, maybe I just repeat the posts here for better understanding.

Zikkyy's post

Zikkyy: You don’t understand. Most people tithe because of the expected benefits (e.g. a 100 fold return or financial security). If you can convince them giving from the heart yield better returns, believe me a good number of people are likely to abandon tithing and adopt your proposed investment model.

Gary's response

garyarnold: My reply is:  if what you say it true, then most people are tithing for the wrong reason and they have absolutely NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.  These people have absolutely NO heart in their giving, and are the MOST SELFISH INDIVIDUALS AROUND!  I can't believe anyone can fall for this type of false prosperity teaching!  Just shows how gullible people are.

IF you give to get back, you lose most of the blessings.  The REAL blessings come when you give to be giving, with absolutely no expectation of getting anything back.

Image's response

Image123:
Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar. Many repent because of judgement, have they done wrong, or they're not true believers? The end of a thing is better than the beginning mr.

Someone quoting Luke 6v38 is surely not talking about giving and hoping for nothing. I don’t know why you like to defend these people. The man tithe/give because of the belief there will be a downpour of blessings. This is not the message here Viaro. Let me post the bible quote here so other readers can form their own opinion.

Luke 6:34-35 & 38 NIV version

34And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.

38Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."

Let go back to your post

viaro:
Dear sir, the verses you recommended also show that those who give should do so in expectation of a REWARD. Yes sir, that is CHRISTIAN giving, for sure.  

Your "lending" may be in view of hoping for nothing again; but immediately after that statement is the fact that the giver surely has a REWARD! In fact, it says that your reward shall be great! It has nothing to do with the accusation that someone is greedy for material gain; rather, that verse there says that there is a "reward" for giving.

You see Viaro, the reward is not in the act itself, but in living a good Christian life; unconditional love to your neighbor. Motive is very important here. Giving with the belief there is a reward for it lacks sincerity. It was done with a condition, a reward in mind and that’s very un-Christ-like. We should learn to give because of the joy we bring to others and to us, because of the love we have for our neighbours, because it pleases God, and not because of any reward. That’s some of the qualities that make us Christians Viaro. Now what I get here on NL when the issue of tithe and offering is being discussed is the reward associated with it. Reward for giving is a done deal; it is not even something to think about.

viaro:
Luke 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

You highlighted the portion of the quote that gives the least value to any Christian Viaro, the outcome of our actions. I’ve highlighted below what I believe is most important to the Christian, the act itself and the form it should take.

Luke 6:35 - But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.

viaro:
Besides Luke 6:35, what about verse 38 that Image123 mentions?

³⁵Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Verse 35 and 38 seems to be contradictory; I don’t think the bible is about that. I believe verse 38 simply reinforces the message being passed across in v35. For me it’s all about generous giving as the Lord will ensure we also receive as much reward. It’s not about getting paid for any particular transaction.

viaro:
Does the highlighted above remind us any bit about 2 Corinthians 9:6?? ["But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully."] If the 'sowing' here is nothing about expecting some reward of sorts at any level, what then is the talk of REAPING?

A focus on the reward for any action lacks sincerity. It's as simple as that.

viaro:
If therefore we don't have any problem with tithing at all - then by all means PREACH IT!

Preach what Viaro What would be the basis of setting ten percent as the amount to give Let’s preach unconditional giving instead, and let the person paying decides in his heart the percentage to give ranging from 0 to 100%. Preaching tithing would amount to rule setting.

I can’t remember anybody telling you to stop giving. If you need clarification on my posts, I will be happy to provide one.

Image123:
Zikky
Many people give offering and alms with reward in view as well, should they stop giving? Luke 6v38 is most familiar.

This is not Christian giving for sure. It’s business. You quote Luke 6v38 but due to your lust for material gain, you fail to understand the message. Please read v32 to v35 as well, and stop quoting what you don’t understand.

Image123:
Many repent because of judgement, have they done wrong, or they're not true believers?

It would be nice if you can provide answer to this question. After repenting because of judgement, did these people continue to practice Christianity because of the judgement?

You need to take a stand my friend, are you a Christian because of fear of punishment or because it is the right way to go? This will influence/shape how you live your Christian life and ultimately where you end up.

From the tone of your post I can see you live a life of fear, fear of the devourer, fear of losing your material achievements, fear you might not succeed in your endeavors. You are very much afraid my friend and it has affected your ability to reason. If it’s true you tithe out of fear, then you are forever going to live with that fear. That’s because you must continue to tithe to keep your fears from becoming reality.

Your post also suggests you see giving as a business venture (and by extension Christianity) and I can only wish you the best. Pray you are successful.

SirJohn:
So what did God say

Good question. mypastor, What did God say 

garyarnold:
My reply is:  if what you say it true, then most people are tithing for the wrong reason and they have absolutely NO IDEA what the Bible teaches.  These people have absolutely NO heart in their giving, and are the MOST SELFISH INDIVIDUALS AROUND!  I can't believe anyone can fall for this type of false prosperity teaching!  Just shows how gullible people are.

IF you give to get back, you lose most of the blessings.  The REAL blessings come when you give to be giving, with absolutely no expectation of getting anything back.

Thats what i am talking about gary.

garyarnold:
Instead of tithing, why not GIVE from the heart?  Is giving from the heart a concept that is just too hard for people to understand?

The Biblical tithe is NOT giving, it is a payment.

I guess some of you need a structural rule to follow in your giving.  Those that have The Holy Spirit within them, AND USE IT, don't need the rules.  If they pray and seek guidance, The Spirit will lead them to give the amount GOD WANTS THEM TO GIVE.

WHY is that so hard to understand?

You don’t understand. Most people tithe because of the expected benefits (e.g. a 100 fold return or financial security). If you can convince them giving from the heart yield better returns, believe me a good number of people are likely to abandon tithing and adopt your proposed investment model.

femmy2010:
[color=#000099]All you have at the moment is N10k and would not have any other funding till about after a months from now.
You owe an overdue debt of N9,000k and your equally overdue tithe payable is exactly N9,000k.
Which would you pay if you were to be in this shoe and having in mind that the creditor remains very much on your neck and has promised hell on earth if you do not pay him within the next 3 days and your investigation into your fortune dry up revealed that things were getting worse because you refused to pay your tithe in the past.
[b]What would you do?[/[/b]color]

@ Poster

Like Kunle noted, if you are truly a tither, there is no need for silly question like the one above. A true tither knows and believes that tithing is the solution to all financial problems. So my friend, pay your tithe and watch your debt disappear. It’s that simple.

If the debt refuses to go away, it possible your tithe was not accepted. You then need to see your pastor for advice or refund.

nuclearboy:
The Tithe Test
1. How many Bible authors wrote commands about the tithe - its purpose, amount and procedures?
2. Who are they?
3. What was done with the third and sixth year tithe? Who had access to it?
4. Can you explain the “tithe cycle” of the Israelites?
5. What was done with the tithe every seventh year?
6. Explain Abram’s tithe. What did Abram give Melchizedek?
7. Did any of the Levites tithe? If so, to whom and how much?
8. How much money did the tithers give to the Levitical Priests?
9. In the “to the Levites” tithing years, did all the tithe go to the Levites?
10. What group did Jacob give his tenth to?
11. What were the conditions God must meet before Jacob would give that tenth?
12. When was the tithe “rediscovered?”
13. Who is credited with that “rediscovery?”
14. What was the catalyst for that “rediscovery?”
15. Is tithing the number one responsibility for the Christian and his/her money?
16. What kind of curse should the Christian expect for failing to tithe (Mal 3:7-9)?
17. Where did Jesus tell Christians to bring their tithe?
18. Where did Paul, or the other New Testament writers, tell Christians to bring the tithe?
19. When the Corinthians, and others, were making their collection for the saints, what was done with that collection before Paul and company took it to Judea?
20. Can the tithe be given to parachurch ministries?
21. What book of the Bible contains details of the law of tithing?
22. Who was God talking to in Malachi? (you'll need to read from Chapter 1, verse 6 to know this)

This your test no easy ooo. It looks like its essay type questions; convert it to multiple choice na, to make it easy for the guy.

Deep Sight:
I REPEAT -

What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Now you are mixing up my post. My comment has to do with the decision to become a Christian in the first place. e.g. a good number of people are Christians because they were born into a Christian family; they could easily have been Muslims or Hindu. Assuming Deepsight was born and grew up somewhere in the Middle East, I am sure your life would have been a different story 

Deep Sight:
I REPEAT -

[color=#990000]What then would you say about persons who held the belief that they could with money purchase forgiveness of their sins by buying indulgences from the Pope.

1. Would you ascribe that to "environment" and "exposure."

2. Would you state that there were not many of the SAME ENVIRONMENT AND EXPOSURE who intuitively and rationally sensed such beliefs to be false?

Is it not obvious that a man must task himself and weigh in his spirit these things?

To answer your question, one would need to understand the circumstances that lead to taking such position or belief. Sorry I can’t be of help at this time. Zikkyy has not been born at the time 

Sorry I can’t help adding some bit of humor here and there. That’s the way I take life, with a bit of fun. So I don’t grow grey hairs prematurely.  Seriously speaking, I will say am not an expert in the field, but I believe various life exposures significantly influence/shape our reasoning. It’s very much unavoidable. I can say this from personal experience and observations of behaviors around me. But this will not be enough to justify the position taken by these people. It’s possible that was all they knew, the inability to reason through could attributable to the trust and high regard they have for the pope. It could have been a combination of so many things. Are they responsible for their actions? Yes, if they have enough facts to have thought otherwise. But were they in the right frame of mind to enable rational deduction?  Maybe assistance via check in to intensive psychiatric care was all that was needed. 

I believe Nuclearboy’s response above answers your question.

Deep Sight:
@ Zikky: I never for ONCE suggested that con artists or tithe-mongering pastors do not bear personal responsibility; they do - everybody does.

Good enough for me.

Deep Sight:
The point is that we actively PARTCIPATE in the fraud for it to happen. The money belongs to you and you take a conscious decision to part with it based on your beliefs. Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times and we bear strict personal responsibility for this.

We are saying the same thing here. I noted this in the first line of my post.

Deep Sight:
Every iota of your beliefs is something you should scrutinize rigorously at all times

I believe you are referring to the white man. The average Africa man will not challenge any beliefs. They don’t have the stamina for that. Our forefathers converted events/natural phenomenon they could not fathom into proverbs 

Joke apart, I still stick to the view that a lot Christians inability to rationalize issues have do with their state of mind. If you’ve been thoroughly beaten down by life, you’ll take advice from a ram. It’s not as easy as you think sir.

Deep Sight:
I NEED CHAMPIONS. I NEED BOLD AND RESPONSIBLE PEOPLE WHO STAND UP AND TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR LIVES AND DESTINIES. I AM NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE CONTRARY ARGUMENTS AS FOR ME THEY ARE SYMPTOMATIC OF COWARDICE AND A FAILURE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY.

You know these guys are not complaining. They don’t even want to agree they have been swindled. We are the one trying to reason out their action here. They probably take us for fools. Well, maybe we are 

Its cowardice if the decision to tithe was taken out of fear (of the devourer maybe). If tithing was seen as an elixir for some of life problems then it’s probably something else.

I have observed a lot of people find it more convenient to listen to sermons than pick up a bible. Probably be the confidence they have in the MOG.

What is Image123 talking about the man appears confused.

I tried thinking of various line of argument to counter Deepsight’s position but always came to same conclusion; people should be responsible for their actions.

But are we really mugus? It’s possible we are. but I think it goes beyond that. Becoming a Christian might not have been a rational decision in the first place. Various factors influence our decisions, for example it could be the environment we find ourselves (that will explain why we have a predominantly Muslim North and Christian South in Nigeria). Becoming a Christian might have been influenced by the sermons/activities of these MOGs, one is likely to extend that faith in God to a trust in the pastor. We are currently living in a distressed environment and as humans will attempt or try out anything to will put us in a comfortable position. Take for example a dying man in the hospital will accept prayers from all sort of spiritualist (be it pastor, priest, alfa, native medicinal man e.t.c) simply because he is desperate and want to live. This applies to a lot of Christians today. We are desperately seeking solutions to our various problems/concerns/fears and probably lost the ability to reason. That could explain why a lot a people after Sunday morning service, go for another round in the evening, daily service on weekdays (some people do abscond from work to attend church activities during working hours), then on Friday night hit redeem camp and make a detour to mfm camp on Saturday morning (on the way back from redeem). Maybe it’s because we lack the will to stand firm to a particular belief or faith. Whatever the reason is, the MOGs are aware of this level of desperation and tend to abuse it. This is where I have to agree with MyJoe. I get the impression that Deepsight is a lawyer, so I would like to ask; are you of the opinion that the man that was swindled by a con (yahoo) man takes full responsibility for his loss? Knowing very well he allowed the fraud in the first place due to his greed. If that’s your position then every con man should be allowed to walk free like our MOGs.

nuclearboy:
Meanwhille, forgive me, Zikky. Somehow, these people confused me to making out Zikky to be Zodiac61

Ba wahala

@nuclearboy, softly softly for Jo abeg you. No vex too much.

Like you said, i dont believe the evidence here is enough to make chris a cultist.

petres_007:
@Viaro,

Thanks for your response. Well, I guess I understand your stand better. However, if I were to "classify" you I'd tag you an "anti-tither" (though I dunno know who coined those terms and don't dig them myself).

Viaro is a tithin "anti-tither" 

@Viaro, its clear to any reader of Genesis 14 that Abraham did not keep any of the spoils of war to himself. I dont know what you are trying to achieve here, really.

@VIARO,  you sure you are the one putting into writing what is not in it?

Anyway, i find your quotes below interesting but  confusing. would be nice if you can offer some clarifications here. Thanks.

viaro:
The priesthood of Melchizedek is the foundation of the tithes in Abraham's case

viaro:
it was again the foundation of the tithes in the NT discussion in Hebrews 7;

viaro:
and it was also the foundation of Levi's tithes.

OLAADEGBU:
This is what the verse says: "[i]Upon the first day of the week let everyone of you lay by him in store, as God has prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come."[/i]

You can see here that there was gathering of money here to be sent to Jerusalem on Sundays, or how do you read?

master olaadegbu, how does this collection translate to tithe? Please note that the collection was meant to be done to the time Paul arrives. i.e. It was for a specified time period only. Also observe that the collection was not meant for a priest/pastor.

nuclearboy:
BTW, it was a custom then to give that tenth to the king. A PAGAN Custom, mind you!

Tell them abeg. They dont know. People like tithing-T could have be paying tithe to 'shamash' the sun god without knowing it

Image123:
we say Abraham gave tithes before the law.

But please tell us how Abrahams tenth of war takings translate to a compulsory remittance of 10% of our monthly wages to the pastor? The argument will not be necessary if you can prove Abraham's transaction aligns with the modern practice.

Image123:
but methinks olaadegbu simply preferred to honour God's Word above wikipedia's or garyarnold.

So, what this God's word that master olaadegbu prefer to honour?

OLAADEGBU:
There were tithing before the law and the One who received it was greater than Abraham

Abrahams rendering of a tenth of war takings to Melchizedek is no justification for a compulsory rendering of 10% of our income to the pastor. How this transaction translates to a compulsory 10% of our income is what you failed to prove. Was Abrahams tenth based on an instruction from God?

OLAADEGBU:
even the Levites paid tithes in Abraham.

Please stop saying this. So if my great grandfather paid tithe, then Zikkyy is a tither abi?

OLAADEGBU:
The tithes Christians pay today are to this same High Priest who lives forever and was sworn in with an oath after the order of Melchisedec.

So rendering a tenth of your income to your pastor amounts to tithing to Christ abi? Did Christ give your pastor the authority to collect and spend tithe on his behalf? You keep saying Christ priesthood is after the order of Melchizedek, Remember that Melchizedek collected his tenth himself. Nobody collected on his behalf.

OLAADEGBU:
This is a case of a pot calling a kettle black.  Who is the accuser here?  Who doesn't understand the topic at hand?  You stylishly now admit that paying tribute to God is acceptable.  Tell me, what's the difference between paying tribute to God and paying tithes?  This is what is called shooting yourselves in the foot.  Who told you that tithes should be compulsorily paid to pastors?

Finally, master olaadegbu, i can see you took my advice and tasked your brain a little. This is good. I am really happy to see this. keep it up.

OLAADEGBU:
Jesus spoke much about money.  He said that we cannot serve God and mammon (Matthew 6:24).  "Mammon" was the common Aramaic word for riches, which is related to a Hebrew word signifying "that which is to be trusted."  We cannot trust God and money, its either money is our source of Joy, our great love, our sense of security, the supplier of our needs, or God is.

You even made some bit of sense here. I think there is hope for you afterall.

OLAADEGBU:
A guide to how much you should give can be found in the "tithe" of the Old Testament, which is 10% of your income.  Whatever amount you give, make sure you give something to the work of God (Malachi 3:8-11).

aahh, looks like i was wrong. i begin to think you were in your lucid interval when you made the initial posts. You dont need malachi 3 as guide to tithing, master olaadegbu. You are also wrong linking tithing to financing the work of God.

Tonye-t:
My friend, pls post the queries and i'll provide you scriptural evidence.
[color=#000099]And how exactly do they manipulate these scriptures? pls answer me. Its very obvious now i can tag you as member of the band of dilly-dallies.

what is manipulation in preaching tithing as a relevant task for believers of God?
what is manipulation in preaching for collections to be used to help give scholarships to folks in school?
what is manipulation in preaching to christians the benefits of giving to one another?
what is manipulation in preaching for collections to be used for outreaches and missions?
what is manipulation in preaching to believers the christian obligations to the needy and orphans?

Tonye-t, as usual, you try to be smart by posting some truths you know everyone agrees with then you insert a lie hoping no one sees it. You dont get away with such around here. We will continue to expose your posts for what they really are - LIES.