₦airaland Forum

'master' olaadegbu, if you believe your position is the truth why not defend, instead of spreading baseless accusations.

OLAADEGBU:
I hope you don't have problems paying your tax since you struggle against paying your tribute to God?

I'll repeat one more time, its either you dont read or you have problem intrepeting what you read. Maybe you post out of frustration. Nobody is against paying tribute to God or giving to God, this is simpe enough for you to understand. All you need to do is provide evidence that God requested a compulsory tributeof 10% of our earnings be paid to the pastor. Thats all.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6016680#msg6016680 date=1273248809]what is manipulation in preaching tithing as a relevant task for believers of God?[/quote]Simply becuase it's not a relevant task. You are yet to prove it is a relevant task. To force it on the congregation as a relevant task amounts to manipulation.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6016726#msg6016726 date=1273249208]And what exactly are your evidence? do you attend their churches? do you know the number of poor folks who receive blessings from this same ministries you guys always come around crucifying here?[/quote]Tonye-t, you are begining to disappoint me. What evidence do you want? Posts from NL pastors, facts that pastors are buying private jets from special collections? I just dont understand you. [color=#990000]Edit: some poor folks received their blessings in Rev. Kings church.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6016726#msg6016726 date=1273249208]What you guys fail to realise is that these 'poor' folks would not attend these churches if they were not blessed, like the scriptures rightly put it[/color][/quote]Please note that i have nothing against the poor being blessed(anywhere), but you are talking like a baby, i am not going to go into why the poor are in church, everybody knows that. Not when you know the state of the Nigerian economy. Then tell me what you think the ratio of poor to rich in christian community as proof of blessings. Please dont forget to explain why only a few are being blessed.

Oga Tonye, too much emotion in post, you are not making sense anymore.

Matthew 26:6-12 (New International Version)
6While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of a man known as Simon the Leper, 7a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table.
8When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. "Why this waste?" they asked. 9"This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor."

10Aware of this, Jesus said to them, "Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. 11The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have me. 12When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6016169#msg6016169 date=1273244085]NuclearBoy,

Stop talking too much and answer a simple question, why did Jesus accepted the alabaster perfume on his feet when it was suppose to be sold and the money given to the poor?[/quote]Oga Tonye, what message are you passing across here? What is the relationship to coerced giving? There was no instruction that the apostles should continue to enrich themselves by collecting from the poor.

You see in verse 12 why Christ accepted the expensive perfume, so maybe we should ask you for reasoning behind the continuous fleecing of the poor by most MOGs.

nuclearboy:
Part of why I called you "Master" rather than "Mr" is because you are immature. the other part is because you are happily shooting yourself in the foot with that foot climbing down your gullet.

'master' olaadegbu succeeded in hanging himself.

OLAADEGBU:
When you discourage the flock of the Shepherd from doing the will of God (in this sense, giving to the Lord) you are in a sense stealling from them. "The thief cometh not but for to steal and to kill and to destroy". So, in essence, you are depriving and preventing the children of God from giving to the work and service of the Lord,

The problem with you guys is you don’t read, and when you do, you don’t process the information. If you had taken time out to process posts made by Nuclearboy or Aletheia, I am sure your response will be different. People like you prefer to be spoon-fed by the MOG whether wrong or right. You behave like a robot.

Enigma:
A lovely day it was (and lovely days will always be with us); I wasn't able to join issues in the latest debates as I have my hands full with Enigmalet who arrived yesterday.

@Enigma, CONGRATS

Image123:
Haha, my 'brethren' are already pulling off their shirts here.

I guess it will result to that, cos mr joagbaje will resist all attempt to take away his ‘chop-chop’

Joagbaje:
The will of God does not come to pass automatically. There are steps of faith we must take ,to bring God's will to pass.

And rendering a tenth of our income to the pastor is one of the steps abi? So, you are saying without tithing, God’s will for an individual to attain financial prosperity will not be realized abi? What about wealthy non-tithers (secured financially)? Their wealthy status is not God’s will abi? Whose will then? And they are Christians.

Based on the joagbaje concept of tithing, is it right then for me to conclude that the rich & non-tithing Christians got their wealth from the devil? You know what that means.

Joagbaje:
You prove your love for God by doing his word. You cant say you are under grace and work against the principles of God.

Oga, you know that God did not command us to give a tenth of our income to the pastor. Why is it difficult for you to stand on the side of truth? How much will you lose from the process?

Joagbaje:
There different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom. Just to mention few.
1.Giving to God (in God's house)

What do you mean by giving to God in God’s house? How do you give to God? Maybe you should explain. And why is it we can only give to God in his house? I wonder where that is    Are you saying God is not your home sir? Maybe that will explain some of the posts we get from you.

Joagbaje:
2.Giving to the poor

This is not giving to God abi?

Joagbaje:
3.Giving for Projects in Gods house
4. Giving to the man of God

What is the package like? Does it include Limo, private jet, luxury yacht and Mansions?

Joagbaje:
Which of these is lacking scriptural backing. Which of them do you have problem with.?

I do have problem with the rich pastors/MOGs that feels comfortable taking resources from those that lack for personal benefit. I have problem with the pastor that will be happy to see the poor members of the congregation starve while contributing their last penny to fund the purchase of a luxury ride or private jet for pastor’s use. I have problem with the pastor that manipulates the scriptures in an attempt to get the ignorant and gullible members of the congregation to part with their money.   

Joagbaje:
This is a spiritual problem if I may say. And those who fight giving in God's house probably dont know the spirit behind it.

EDIT: Sure, its a spiritual problem (a good number of MOGs are under the spell of this spirit). and we know the spirit behind it. It's the spirit of greed and manipulation for filthy lucre. If you have been reading, it should have been obvious to you that nobody is against giving. Because of your greed you tend to misinterpret posts. Fraudulent manipulation for personal gain has always been the issue.

Joagbaje:
For an example to the advocates for the poor masses , If their pastor should come up with a project to reach out to poor people as many churches do, they will still not give.

You don’t know this. You speak from a position of ignorance.

Joagbaje:
If their pastor should come up with a project to reach out to poor people as many churches do, they will still not give. They will call him thief.

Your reputation precede you my friend 

Joagbaje:
The early church sold their properties and still brought the money to the church for disbussment.

Acts 4:34-35
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Do you practice what you preach sir? BTW, the quote from Acts above said nobody lacked, can we say the same for CEC or even your branch.

Joagbaje:
Pauls did thesame by mobilising the church to give for the specieal relief project every sunday service.If These NL attackers of the church were there , what would they do?

They will gladly contribute.

Joagbaje:
Here comes the golden question. WHO ARE THEY REALLY WORKING FOR?

I guess that’s for you to find out.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6003980#msg6003980 date=1273073701]1. Abraham who was the first to have tithed before the law of moses came, did so to a priest. and guess what? That priest was noted to be a PRINCE of Jeru[i]salem[/i] and at least you and I know that princes lack nothing. So why then would someone(Abraham) give tithe to an already-sufficient pastor (Melchisedec)[/quote]Recalling some post you made somewhere(from the tithing thread), Abraham tithing takes it's origin from a pagan practice (was it to shamash ). Besides, God did not instruct Abraham to remit a tenth of war takings to Melchizedek, it was Abrahams choice and a one-time transaction as well.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg6003980#msg6003980 date=1273073701]2. When Jacob promised to give a tithe, did he promise giving it to a levite or God.[/quote]Again it was Jacob making the move. Not based on instruction from God. Like you rightly observed, no middle man man (pastor) involve in the transaction. So how did Jacob remit? considering the fact that there was no temple and no MOG.

Oga Tonye, i cant remember anybody attempting to stop you from tithing. Just don't coerce others into tithing by claiming it's a Christian requirement.

Joagbaje:
Jesus should have stopped that old widow. She should rather have been helped and given to. isnt it? But no, a poor man must learn to give, thats what will change his story arround.

Yes, the poor man must learn to give, but when it comes to giving to a neighbor (including the pastor) they should only give to meet the need of those that lack. What about you Jo? You claim to be super rich, like the poor widow do you contribute all you have (your whole livelihood)? Or do you contribute out of surplus cash.

And yes, Christ also told the apostles that they will always have the poor among them. That means if the poor sells all they have and remit to the rich not all of them will be rich. Because Joagbaje and other pastors like chris oyaks will not always be with us, they are entitled to milk the poor abi. So sad  

Oh, I forgot they are gods, and therefore entitled to think/talk like one  

Joagbaje:
The priest is anointed to bless. It is the people who are blessed.So you dont just give to a man of God to meet his need , You give to him because he is anointed and the anointing will cause you to have prophet's reward.

What are you saying here? That tithe remitted to the pastor or MOG should be seen as a ‘blue’ chip investment abi? After categorizing giving (to the poor and MOG) based on the rate of returns, I believe with time we will be hearing that ‘prosperity can only be gotten through the pastor or MOG’

Tithe was given to meet the needs of the Levites and the Priests and not for the anointing/prophetic reward. The bible did not instruct Christians to tithe for prophetic reward.

Joagbaje:
Numbers 18:8
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them[b] by reason of the anointing[/b], and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

Acts 20:35
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

And the quote above is to support prophetic reward abi? The pastors are the weak abi?

Joagbaje:
When God calls a man and h has to resign his job, abandon all for sake of ministry, what are you talking? Was Kumuyi not a great lecturer. What about Adeboye? . Are they in ministry because they were jobless?
Likewise most ministers. The tithe is God's primary way of support for the workers in ministry those days.

Oga, as usual you are very wrong. There is no such instruction for pastors to be supported with tithe. Christians are not required to tithe sir.

If you refer to tithing under Mosaic Law, you easily forget that the tithe from the people was never meant for the priest. If you must apply the Mosaic Law (illegally that is) in your church, please ensure the church workers (choristers, ushers, cleaners, security e.t.c) get the full tithe (don’t forget widow, orphan, strangers and others in need). You can only receive tithe from your church workers. 

Joagbaje:
See what Paul has to say.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

This is no problem if you believe you must ‘chop’ from the gospel. Simply request for an offering to support the pastor. You don’t need to lie, i am sure the congregation will cooperate because they love you. But you won’t make such attempt because you are scared you will not achieve the desired level of collection. Two reasons for this, it’s either the purpose of the request cannot be justified or the congregation is made up of business people who see giving as an investment (thanks to you). As long as you continue to encourage or breed ‘Christians’ that give only when there is an 100fold or more returns, you will continue to seek innovative (and fraudulent) means of squeezing money out of the congregation. Due to your  inability to make people give out of pure Christ-like love I would say you have failed in your duty/calling (assuming you were called for real) cos you are longer willing souls for Christ.

[quote author=Tonye-t link=topic=441519.msg5996689#msg5996689 date=1272976152][list][li]Disciples of Christ: KunleOshob, Ogajim, MavenBox(InesQor) Enigma, Jesoul, Ttalks, Alethiea, Nuclearboy et al[/li][/list]

                                                                              Vs

[list][li]Jesus pastor said: Tonye-t, Image123, anabel, Bobbyaf, Joagbaje, OOLADEGBU et al[/li][/list][/quote]

viaro:
Let me share with you why that is so.

Perhaps verse 10 highlights the view that the promise might refer to the "city":

'For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God'.

Could verse 13 on to verse 16 buttress the point? Possibly, as we find that the reference seems to be pointing to what the OT saints had seen and been persuaded of, as well as embraced them -

(a) verse 13 - 'These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. '

Now, why would these folks have confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth? This is explained in the next two verses -

(b) verses 14 and 15 - 'For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.'

Then we see the point of these verses been pooled together in verse 16 -

(c) verse 16 - 'But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.'

Now, reading on from verse 17, it becomes apparent why we find "the promise" in verse 39 saying the same thing as in verse 13 - "And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise".

Hence, verse 40 says - "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

There are two things in v. 40 - (a) "for us"; and (b) "they without us should not be made perfect". [size=14pt]These two seem to be saying that the "made perfect" is to be enjoyed together. It does not hint that we are to "teach"  the OT saints as if they are to "learn from" us[/size]. If you disagree, please let me know why, and then I could post some more.

Thank you VIARO.  have been been trying to figure out just what these WOfers would be teaching the OT saints (probably how to play god). This post says it all. I am certain they will pretend they didn't see your post and just move on.

@Enigma

I dont think your post will make any impact. Most of these guys see and read with their ears, and its programed to accept just what the pastor choses to dish out.

debosky:
Was Jesus rich?

He wasn't dependent on anyone else, he had enough to meet his needs and could access additional resources. There was never a moment when he had a need he couldn't meet - when asked for tax, he could get it from a fish, which shows that he could meet his needs by any means required.

Acquiring material wealth will require either working for it or by inheritance, in this case from Joseph and Mary. I dont agree he had material wealth. Except you want to put a monetary value to the fact that he can access resources in a way no other man can.

otitokoro1:
Tithe is commanded of every true Christains. Kunle, the ealeir you accept the fact the better.

How did you arrive at this conclusion? Can you link the Deuteronomy verse you quoted above to christianity?

otitokoro1:
I am also not cleared about the modern day definitions, that is why I put this vote forward to help in my decision onthe subject.

Maybe you should stick to this position.

Joagbaje:
God is a God of increase. He commeds the man that increased his talents.

What talent? fleecing the flocks abi?

Joagbaje:
I have not read all the posts , but heres is my contribution. Having a Mega church is a sign of grace and ability. Biblically , God use people according to their abilities. The size of a man's crowd is a sign of ability and should be commended rather than condemned. If your ability is fifty , no matter how much you try, you cant have more than fifty.

Size is not everything. In this case, its the quality of the congregation that matters to the Almighty, not the number of people in church. We can begin to talk about size and ability after you make christians out of the members. You will be correct if the focus is revenue generation.

Thanks Enigma. I was a bit confused as i believed a blanket interpretation of the word 'glory' as used by several writers in the bible might not be ideal. So its better to provide a proper interpretation of 'glory' being discussed here. The link provided was useful as well.

Hi Enigma/luckyCO,

Been following the thread. I need some help from you guys, what's this 'glory' people want to share with the almighty all about? people like me will better appreciate the discussion here. Thanks.

Snowwy:
Your statement 'The only motivation "Churches" have for preaching it is GREED' is very wrong my dear. You don't have absolute knowledge of the church except you have turned yourself to God.

The post below might provide some insight, help you understand what Ogajim was getting at.

Joagbaje:
The primary way by which the work of God and the ministers are supoorted is through tithes and offerings and there is nothing the devil can do about that.

[b]1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. [/b]

As long as pastors see tithe as a means for enriching themselves, they will continue to support and preach it. Its all about fund raising to pastor expenses as you can see.

Snowwy:
We are meant to be more like Jesus and follow His teachings. What is so wrong therefore in people who honour their God with a tenth of their income then?

Absolutely nothing wrong with this. I think its a personal choice.

Snowwy:
So what is the difference between what you are saying and what I am saying. You believe pastor's misuse tithes. Hello!
I said because some poor people misuse alms, does it mean we should still not assist the poor? Common!

You continue to miss the point here Snowwy, the tithe was never for the pastor's use. The issue has always been whether its a christian obligation/requirements or optional (at your discretion). God will not punish you if dont remit 10% of your income to the church, but you can still go ahead and do that if thats how you want to express your appreciation/gratitude to the Almighty. It shouldn't be because Jesus said or did not say. I think it best to understand why the Isrealite were required give out 10% of their farm produce.

Maybe we can share thoughts later, if you are interested.

Joagbaje:
God has a system of dealing with people through a leader at a given time and not altogether as a group.From Moses ,Joshua, David, Jesus and to the church. It is Gods system.
Deacons and elders that were ordained were stil accountable to the pastor who is the head.

Cant blame oga Jo for such comment. You people want to take away his garri

Pastor AIO:
The point of the matter is that the Catholic church as an institution has presided over the despoil if innocent young children. This is not just the matter of a few bad individuals within the church. No, it has become institutionalised. And together, as an institution, the abuse was covered up. If this was any other organisation it would be called a paedophile ring, which in fact is what it is.

The pope, the head of this paedophilic organisation, was aware of it's activities and conspired in the cover up. Again if it was any other organisation it would be disbanded and all it's members charged with their crimes.

Are you saying all priests (including the pope) have this disorder?

jaffi:
Their action has nonthing to do with the mesaage of CHRIS EMBASSY.
READ OUR ROR and you will get familiar with the message.

ogajim:
There you have it folks, the real name of the Church! WOW

JeSoul:
But the very purpose of church as we see in the very examples of the early church was coming together, sharing in communion and meals, building each other up, serving each other, discussing the bible in depth, and using our gifts to help each other.

The whole point of this thread is that the above ^^ is almost impossible to do effectively in a large church setting. And in light of that, what is the point of having a big church in the first place? I hope this makes sense. Thanks!

I guess i miss this part. I have to agree its much easier achieving this with a smaller group.

I have one concern though; This approach will be effective if you live in an exclusive area in Victoria Island, Ikoyi or even Ikeja G.R.A where privacy is guaranteed. Let say you live in mushin and you have this small gathering for fellowship. Your neighbours observe and offers to join in, you accept and before you know it you hitting a membership size of say 100, what will be your reaction to such situation?

Do you announce that the membership size is getting too large and achieving the original purpose will be difficult and propose a breakup into more clusters?
If you do this, would you prefer you stick to your old friends (i.e founding members)?  

InesQor:
The unsaved are meant to be reached OUTSIDE the church,

True but the church can also serve the purpose if done with sincerity.

@J-SOUL,

I dont know what you would define as large or mega church, but i do believe you can make a family out church of say 400 members, the problem is more of attitude like somebody noted above. True the bigger an organisation the more difficult it is to co-ordinate, but that is why you have clusters or cell group. I do not support my view with reference from the bible cos its just personal. I believe there is so much more to gain if one have access to a larger and more diverese body of christians than an isolated group of say 10-20 people. Agreed the smaller the church, the stronger the bonding and sharing.

davidylan:
It makes me question one thing - what is the major incentive for making churches so large? Money or souls?

Money, Power/Influence, my church is bigger than yours metality Definitely not for the souls.

davidylan:
this is precisely JeSoul's point . . . how can i be my brothers keeper when i dont even know my brother?

There is no guarantee that you will not have similar issues with smaller gatherings. You could even have class issues here. What stop a gathering of well-to-dos from excluding the very poor from sharing in their expensive wines and food. There is the risk that such gathering could even metamorphose into social/political/business clubs where deals are finalized.

Enigma:
On the main topic, I think a lot of good points have already been made. Ideally, our regular or frequently recurrent, e.g. weekly, fellowship should consist of a relatively small group where basically everyone knows everyone and people can be comfortable and reasonably open with each other. Also, seeing each other's need people can support one another both materially and spiritually. On the other hand, firstly it is a good idea to occasionally meet with a wider part of the universal or "catholic" body. Secondly, the reality of modern living has to be acknowledged and it may be that for various reasons meeting, i.e. regular fellowship, in a relatively larger body is either unavoidable or even desirable in one's particular circumstances.

debosky:
There is no one 'universal' size requirement for churches. Often this depends on the needs of the person involved and what his/her fellowship needs are. If I for example have Christian friends who I meet with often enough in a smaller group and have good fellowship, I might not have a problem going to a 'mega church' where I have a great worship experience and which meets my need to be part of a bigger group.

debosky:
However, there is a need for a smaller sub-unit where the close knit fellowship is fostered and allowed to develop. This is what must form the building blocks of any healthy church, no matter how large - the smaller units, be they sunday school classes, home fellowships, etc, must function to develop the close knit ties between believers that is necessary.

I agree with noetic16, Enigma and debosky, bigger size churhes are unavoidable.