What is important is not the collections per se, but what the churches do with the money. When God said my house must not be empty, I think the purpose is to ensure that when a poor man/woman comes to the house of God he or she goes home with happiness.

But we all know that churches today have been turned to enterprises with the Pastor as the Chairman and the wife the CEO.

DOES IT MEAN WHEN THE PASTOR IS CALLED BY GOD, THEN THE WIFE IS AUTOMATICALLY CALLED TO LEAD THE WOMEN?

US today is investigating some mega churches regarding what the have done with all collections.

The house of GOD no doubt needs money, but for what primary purpose? The primary purpose is the emancipation of the poor. To ensure that when the downtrodden comes to God he goes back home happy. But today the Primary purpose has changed to make life more abundant for the Pastor and the family.

Pastors are supposed to exemplify a morally filled and humble life and not to display flamboyance as we have today in mainly the Pentecostal churches.

In fact when the advertise the will never use the pictire of the cross or Jesus Christ, they instead use the Pastor's Picture embarrassing his wife. This is pure advert and personal aggrandisement

I will pass,

What is important is not the collections per se, but what the churches do with the money. When God said my house must not be empty, I think the purpose is to ensure that when a poor man/woman comes to the house of God he or she goes home with happiness.

But we all know that churches today have been turned to enterprises with the Pastor as the Chairman and the wife the CEO.

DOES IT MEAN WHEN THE PASTOR IS CALLED BY GOD, THEN THE WIFE IS AUTOMATICALLY CALLED TO LEAD THE WOMEN?

US today is investigating some mega churches regarding what the have done with all collections.

The house of GOD no doubt needs money, but for what primary purpose? The primary purpose is the emancipation of the poor. To ensure that when the downtrodden comes to God he goes back home happy. But today the Primary purpose has changed to make life more abundant for the Pastor and the family.

Pastors are supposed to exemplify a morally filled and humble life and not to display flamboyance as we have today in mainly the Pentecostal churches.

In fact when the advertise the will never use the picture of the cross or Jesus Christ, they instead use the Pastor's Picture embarrassing his wife. This is pure advert and personal aggrandisement

I will pass on this one,

hmmmn, its threads and discussions such as this that brings to the fore the simple but harsh truth: RELIGION HAS FAILED MAN, OR RATHER MAN HAS DESTROYED ITS OWN CREATION, RELIGION.!

Jesus did not create a religion! he did not even start a 'church' in the loose sense of the word. it was man who devised religion as a tool for achieving the set goal of preaching the gospel(good news)
like every good human endeavor of course it receives divine blessing and support.

BUT, like all human endeavor, it will only go as far as the creator(man) takes it and steers it. FYI, God does not 'NEED' the worldly church. the church does not validate God, just as human faith or professional pontification does not. God is not an egotistical being somewhere who need humans to grovel at his feet and shout loudly to other humans about him. HE IS WHO HE IS (I AM THAT I AM)  the church is not evidence of God nor anything which goes on in it attached to him.

that said: as a person who has faith, until AND UNLESS you grasp the distinction between faith and religion, well you will continue to get sucked into debates and worries such as this.
the purpose of the church was to spread the gospel. giving to it is SUPPOSED to further that goal

God does not need money, YOU CANNOT GIVE TO GOD!!! someone tells you pay your tithe, you are not giving to God. you are expressing your utmost support for the faith and giving what pinches you (denying yourself) to further the gospel.

that being said, today, you are probably better throwing your money into the lagoon than giving it to a church, especially nigerian ones. sure God sees your desire for spreading your faith, but then how does expensive suits, palatial homes and private jets spread the faith? i dunno tell me.

see all these talk about quoting scriptures to support stealing is just inane. then someone says people that give the money should not question the way its spent, just give. THAT IS UTTER TRIPE!!
That money is NOT MEANT FOR THE NONSENSE ITS USED FOR, that money is meant for the faith, its dishonest to tell people not to ask questions!!!!!!


non believers are the best mirror you can get of the way the church is being undermined. believe me they are usually right about the criticism. if the way the churches were being run were reasonable, then there will be no complains. reference back to what i said about God and the church, the usual line about Gods money etc is pure bull.

im not surprised that people are trotting out to support the "establishment" what you must realise is what you are doing is DEFEND RELIGION.  now considering that that does'nt take a man far. its hardly worth jumping on hot coals for is it?
people like our very pastor here will of course defend their practices, its what they do for a living, its what gives them relevance. just like me and you will defend anything in our professions.

whats even more scary is the fact that some of these very religious people actually dont even know better, they are not trying to decieve u consciously, they were simply indoctrinated that way, and they really believe the illogicalities they present and look for bible verses to defend.

RELIGION HAS FAILED MAN. ITS TIME TO SEEK GOD TRULY AND DIRECTLY. JESUS IS LORD.

While i am in full support of giving to the Lord, I am very much against fines imposed on members of a church. When u say every member should contribute a fixed amount eg. 15 euros rather than saying "Give as the Lord leads u", that in my opinion is a fine or levy.

I remember back in the university days when a friend of mine attended BLW, and the next sunday, they were fined an amount of money against an upcoming program. He was hounded by the members until he left the fellowship so that he could have peace  .

This is not restricted to CEC. There was a Redeemed parish i attended (in one of the remote villages in Rivers state) and rather than preach the sermon, the pastor talked about the hardship he was facing in the community as a full time pastor with no other source of income. I was touched by his plight and was moved to give, that was until he brought out a time table and started reading out names of families in the church that he had mandated to bring food for him on a particular day of the week . By the time he got to Wednesday, I was already at the door of the church on my way out!

I can go on about experiences in other denominations as well. This is certainly not restricted to the two denominations mentioned.

Some of these things are a result of the Pastor in charge and not a function of the whole ministry but in the long run, we should serve God according to the scriptures and not doctrines by the churches we attend. Pray for guidance because He is the one that knows best.

Sorry in my last post I meant to say 'when the Pastors embrace their wives in pictures'.

Another ISSUE we should bother about is how can we separate Pastorship from Church ownership. I think this is where the issue lies.

Some contributor said Jesus collected money, yes, its not impossible as the Bible said money is the vehicle for Gospelling, but can anyone point to where Jesus properties are.

The whites who introduced Christianity to us were never flamboyant as many of them left the comfort of their countries to come to villages in NIgeria to preach, in-spite of all problems. What do we see today is that our Pastors seek after comfort, as many will not go to Problematic villages/areas in NIgeria where they are needed but prefer to go to the western nations for comfort and money.

We have villages in Nigeria that are yearning for christ and some villages are yet to know God yet Pastors have not moved their Head Office there but they prefer Abuja and Lagos.

It is true the there will be surprises on the day of JUDGEMENT

I'm a proud catholic. I've never attended any of Christ Embassy church services anywhere. But I enjoy Pastor Chris' teachings a lot on TV. If for any reason you don't like what you've observed in that church, one expects you walk away quietly. I also read Rhapsody of Realities when I have the time. Pastor Chris understands the Holy Bible and his teachings corroborate that. Please stop this.

davidylan:

there is no point jo . . . u need to be born again.

Waiting for you here david

@ jo agbaje: Your posts have insults ridden in them. Once you insulted all the females by saying someone writes like one, you called someone childish (thats definately not a compliment) and you called the Opening poster a "liar" and a "false brethern"just to mention a few.

Even the most mature person on this thread(InesQor) you insulted right after his(or her) very first thread and you are complaining that viaro is insulting you, You should read all of InesQor's post again, maturity at its finest!, and Learn too.

PS. Abeg no insult me oh! lol!!!! but seriously don't

Really an interesting thread.Let teh truth be told,God's business has been turned to man's business. This idea of worshipping pastors and their wives(daddy and mummy) should stop.I don't understand why pastors should be going about with sirens, even their wives.Very soon, i mean very soon, they will start going with armoured Tanks.Are they now Politicians?? What is their fear?? Most of these offerings come from the very poor members and widows in the church, what have these churces done to alleviate the sufferings of the people.They buy Multi-million Naira cars, live in the best of homes money can afford, send their wards to the best schools in the world(not bad) but then what happens to the poor in their midst? Jesus is coming soon, I know Judgement will start from the church, so Pastors get ready to give account of your stewardship here on earth.

Joagbaje:

So whats the big deal about financial partnership?  are you not ashame to bring your greed to the public. How would you expect the ministry to run the different arm such as internet ministry, Free Rhapsody, Loveworld TV. Do you know how  many billion the devil is using today to sponsor evil on the media. Partnership is biblical. Jesus collected money from several people for his ministry. We must continually give for works of ministry.

You are more than a spy. you are a "false brethren". If you can ridicle a church you attend , publicly. what are you still doing there? If you dont belive in what they do , go somewhere esle.

SHUT THE PHUCK UP!!!

Why do people especially xtians especially nigerian xtians get easily upset when their pastor or their church is criticized but never when Jesus Christ who they emulate is criticized. They are ready to go up in arms when something or somebody says something negative about their pastors, who is only human or their church but will do nothing when Jesus Christ is criticized. I know a girl who threatened to slap my friend for criticizing her pastor & funny enough the pastor was my friend's uncle as in his mother's younger brother. Do y'all know Elton john came out to say Jesus Christ was gay, & christians just let it slide. I dare him to say such against Mohamed. We as xtains especially Nigerian xtians need to get our heads out of our a**es cos we don't know shit!

If u are in support say IIIII!, if u are against say NAY!!, the Nay have it!

Blue Magic:

Why do people especially xtians especially nigerian xtians get easily upset when their pastor or their church is criticized but never when Jesus Christ who they emulate is criticized. They are ready to go up in arms when something or somebody says something negative about their pastors, who is only human or their church but will do nothing when Jesus Christ is criticized. I know a girl who threatened to slap my friend for criticizing her pastor & funny enough the pastor was my friend's uncle as in his mother's younger brother. Do y'all know Elton john came out to say Jesus Christ was gay, & christians just let it slide. I dare him to say such against Mohamed. We as xtains especially Nigerian xtians need to get our heads out of our a**es cos we don't know poo!

true talk people also seem to forget the only person we're supposed to vouch for is God, we can't even be sure abt ourselves not to talk of someone else.

The OP has a very good point - some of these practices by some of these churches are indeed very questionable!

. . . . wether he's spying or not is insignificant here 7 4 those who say he shoulda shoved it down his throat and kept it to himself - "you see it, you own it!"

I know many church goers have sold their souls to their pastors and their wives and hence will not even meditate on any other view no matter how honest it is except the one they strongly and most time errornously believed. if our Lord Jesus Christ was interested in what is in our pocket in terms of offerings and tithe, I wonder whether he could have made it to calvary, but since his mission is very simple, i and you are saved 2day without paying anything for it, unfortunately what he bequethed to us ( the message of salvation) has been turn to money spinning machine, the church business. For those of us who are bitter about the guy in Holland, do u think you can afford salvation if christ has meant it for sale through offerings and tithe? Give a reflection on this

I recognise that the way of certain churches stirs up a lot of arguments, so it obviously remains a topical issue. However, the Christ Embassy thing has been discussed to death. Perhaps it's time to move on.

Just to give some background, I used to be a member of CE for about 8 years, but now worship somewhere else.

@ Joagbaje

You have showed your ignorance of the word of God.

Don't the poster deserve the right to express himself?

E hen! wait a moment o,where gangaseed dey na?d guy just held us in suspence

On the thanks given day last year this same man make us believe that he gave 10,000 euro as a thanksgiving offering that the year before he gave 5000 and next year he planned to give 20000. And to demonstrate this he sent for the financial secretary to bring his own thanksgiving envelop to the front of the church and it was a big envelop actually wether the said money was there or not we do not know. This strategy is a professional one.

this is ridiculous. why is the pastor showing off how much he gave as offering? n trying to coerce members into paying that way
that's why the most genuine offerings are the ones where the benefactors choose to remain anonymous. shows the genuineness of their thanks.

personally, I agree with the poster that said tithe is compulsory but other offerings should be made willingly. if u pay offering because pastor force you to do so and ur heart isn't there, do you think god will bless you? no.

.hmmm. . .

@all: Apart from d poster who was dr lif n direct 2 witness what he posted, d rest of u r just quotn n interpretatin passages of d bible written donkey yrs b4 dy wr born.None of u can claim any authority on any of ur quotations cuz none of u wr dr when d said tns happened.

d church was meant 4 d salvation of souls n living by example , more than wht u preach will get people 2 come back 2 God? aside all d offerings n tithings and wht hv u, how many churches hv be abl 2 achieve ds? D church which is meant 4 d salvation of souls hv bn turned in2 social clubs,

How many church goers by d kind of life they liv(not wht they profess) hv been abl 2 inspire ppl 2 giv dr lives 2 christ?

watchn ds forum, wht would a pondern convert 2 christianity say Bout christians?

u c it is not our fault. it is only wht can b obtained in a church dt trivializes spirituality n and elevates materializm.

No matter wht any 1 of u mit tnk, christianity d way it is practiced in our tym is nit d way Jesus ordained it 2 b. N please don't bother quoting d scriptures 4 me if u weren't a living witness 2 d events.

The name of this poster is absurd for a christian "ganjaseed" which means the seed of india hemp or marijuana. though you may speak the truth, but your username may make falsify your claims.

If ur in a church and ur spirit is somewhere else, u will begin to see many faults.

My advise is that u quit that church. Dont attend a church to spy.

So whats the big deal about financial partnership?  are you not ashame to bring your greed to the public.
Why did u have to be insulting by calling the poster greedy? This is a the problem with follow follow church goers, do not use your brain. Always act with emotions and say that asking questions about a pastor's way of life is challenging God. Get it in your brains, pastors are not GOD and never will.

Blue Magic:

Why do people especially xtians especially nigerian xtians get easily upset when their pastor or their church is criticized but never when Jesus Christ who they emulate is criticized. They are ready to go up in arms when something or somebody says something negative about their pastors, who is only human or their church but will do nothing when Jesus Christ is criticized. I know a girl who threatened to slap my friend for criticizing her pastor & funny enough the pastor was my friend's uncle as in his mother's younger brother. Do y'all know Elton john came out to say Jesus Christ was gay, & christians just let it slide. I dare him to say such against Mohamed. We as xtains especially Nigerian xtians need to get our heads out of our a**es cos we don't know poo!

When you as a Christian, criticize/slander a Pastor, does it add one more soul to the Kingdom of God?

By comparing Christians with moslems in terms of defending their faith, you are insinuating that Christians were suppose to bomb elton john because of his blasphemy against the Holy Lord, Jesus Christ? Were then is your love?

What do you expect from the heathen/the uncircumcised of the Spirit/the unbeliever/they that have been cut off from God? To sing praises to Jesus Christ or to blasphem against Jesus Christ? Didnt Jesus Himself and His apostles say we should expect things like this in the end of times?

Let elton john and his cohorts continue offering their tongue to the devil for use and let Christians continue preaching the Gospel of the Lord Jesus, then let's see which of the two produces a greater results; But, I pray that this Gospel catches up with him (elton john) and he be called to repentance because though his sins be as red as scarlet, He shall make him as white as snow. God is Love.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is anointed of the Holy Ghost and the gates of hell cannot prevail against it!

Criticisms against Pastors is an attack on the annointing and we as Christians should desist from such acts because although they (Pastors) are anointed, they also are human beings still working towards their own perfection! Recall in bible days, even when the Spirit left King Saul (1st Samuel 15:23, 26), David recognized the anointing on King Saul and refused to slaughter him when he had the opportunities (1st Samuel 24:1-7, 1st Samuel 26:1-12); and when the amalekite went to David to announce that he slaughtered King Saul, David rebuked him and ordered his death for daring to kill the LORD's annointed (1st Samuel 1:14-16). David recognised the anointing over the man Saul and even warned against the announcement/publication of his fall (1st Samuel 1:19-20). Therefore, let us as Christians beware what we publish against Pastors, because we ridicule our faith before the unbelievers.

adconline:

So whats the big deal about financial partnership?  are you not ashame to bring your greed to the public.
Why did u have to be insulting by calling the poster greedy? This is a the problem with follow follow church goers, do not use your brain. Always act with emotions and say that asking questions about a pastor's way of life is challenging God. Get it in your brains, pastors are not GOD and never will.

Let's ask questions about our way of life first with necessary answers before we seek to ask of others.

Gunnaz007:

Criticisms against Pastors is an attack on the annointing and we as Christians should desist from such acts because although they (Pastors) are anointed, they also are human beings still working towards their own perfection!

With due respect, not only should careless "pastors" be criticized, they should be exposed if any one of them begins to preach a corrupt message for filthy lucre's sake. READ your Bible - it's all there! Hooligans with religious positions in many "churches" will do very well in their trade when the followers are too gullible to not ask questions where it really matters.

"For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake."

Titus 1:10-11 is still in your Bible, no?

RuuDie:

The OP has a very good point - some of these practices by some of these churches are indeed very questionable!

. . . . wether he's spying or not is insignificant here 7 4 those who say he shoulda shoved it down his throat and kept it to himself - "you see it, you own it!"

;and the practises in your church if you are a member of any arent questionable ahn?

All over the world, there are huge budgets expended by Al-qaeda and other terror groups to bring tears and sorrows to many homes.
The originator of this thread should be ashamed for criticizing those spending to spread the good news to the many who are yet to hear (As commanded by Jesus.),
that is the essence for the giving you criticize, as most of those partnership go into media and others. If the givers are not complaining, (because they definately reap the benefits, it's the law of giving) then poster, pleas feel free to go back to your church where you'll be happy squeezing a dirty note as offering. And keep expecting your dirty note to facilitate the spread of the gospel.

[color=#990000]Interesting topic here. Let him that have ears to hear & eyes to see hear and see. Unfortunately, some pple have eyes & ears for decoration. Advice to all CEC members and members of all churches for dat matter: open yr eyes, shine ur eyes well-well!!! Read scripture urself and ask questions within and without ur church, seek d truth cos only d truth can set u FREE, free from all lies and false doctrines and teachings and traditions of men.
 On d other hand, if u want to be deceived by closing ur eyes to happenings in ur church inconsistent with scriptures, by feeling secure in d midst of a crowd or by pleasing ur pastor (instead of God), then GOODLUCK! [/color]