InesQor:

@Joagbaje: Jesus did not "collect money" from "many people". People donated in kind, and probably in cash as well (see Judas). Jesus was never seen to have had to tell people to give him money, the way it's done today, or the way the OP said it happened in Holland. He NEVER even insinuated it or hinted at people. They gave as they willed.

At least someone with little honesty is talking. Did the OP say they forced anybody?, Every giving in Gods house is voluntary, no pastor has right to force anybody, The Op obviously didnt give, because givers dont criticise giving.

Luk 8:3  And Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager; and Susanna; and many others, who ministered to and provided for Him and them out of their property and personal belongings. (AMP)

Luk 8:3  And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. (KJV)

The word translated substance is huparchonta

G5224
ὑπάρχοντα
huparchonta
hoop-ar'-khon-tah
Neuter plural of present participle active of G5225 as noun; things extant or in hand, that is, property or possessions: - goods, that which one has, things which (one) possesseth, substance, that hast.

They ministered in KIND. They used their possessions to help the ministry.

Joagbaje:

At least someone with little honesty is talking. Did the OP say they forced anybody?, Every giving in Gods house is voluntary, no pastor has right to force anybody, The Op obviously didnt give, because givers dont criticise giving.

A little honesty, you said? 

Can you show us where Jesus ever asked for donations or contributions to be made? Is it not true that if I'm in a CEC service and I don't give voluntarily so-to-speak, then I have shown some disloyalty? We all know how these things work! We can't say that a pastor (if I respect him) says I should make a contribution and I won't!!! So how can you say I'm not being forced? If the pastor asks for the contribution every now and then, hasn't that become something else?

Or can you not see that this "giving" that the OP mentioned is rather trivial? Did Jesus live in luxury at the expense of his followers? Isn't it true that he was so much at par with them in living conditions that Judas had to single him out with a kiss, he was not distinguished in extravagant dressing or opulent expression?

Please stop for a second and think about all I said above before you hit the REPLY button.

@ InesQor

InesQor:

Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

So what?? this was only an instance, He could not be buying houses every where he was going. He was on transit he had sent people to arrange accomodation in the samaritan town but they refused him there.because they were samaritans and since he was going to Jerusalem which was a rival town to the samaritans, they were offended

Luke 9:52-55
   And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. [53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. [54] And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

He was still thinking of where to sleep when another man came to add more responsibility of staying with him, he politely refused, he had not even sort his own accomodation out yet.

Luke 9:57-58
   And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

That was only an instance.He had a house

John 1:37-39
   And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. [38] Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou? [39] He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth hour.

Joagbaje:

@ InesQor

InesQor link=topic=411702.msg5682786#msg5682786 date=1268440690:

Luk 9:58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

So what?? this was only an instance, He could not be buying houses every where he was going. He was on transit he had sent people to arrange accomodation in the samaritan town but they refused him there.because they were samaritans and since he was going to Jerusalem which was a rival town to the samaritans, they were offended

Luke 9:52-55
   And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. [53] And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. [54] And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? [55] But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

I wasn't saying that Jesus never had a dwelling place at some points in his ministry! Obviously what I was trying to say has been lost on you. Maybe if you read it again you would understand. And if you want me to explain, go ahead and ask. I only prefer people attempting to find the truth for themselves because if I tell you every detail, you may not accept.

---

Joagbaje:

He was still thinking of where to sleep when another man came to add more responsibility of staying with him, he politely refused, he had not even sort his own accomodation out yet.

Luke 9:57-58
   And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

This interpretation of yours is so false! The scripture in context says

Luk 9:57  And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
Luk 9:58  And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
Luk 9:59  And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
Luk 9:60  Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
Luk 9:61  And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
Luk 9:62  And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.

Are you deliberately twisting the scriptures?
,
Is it not clear here Jesus was warning the first guy that if he follows WHEREVER THOU GOEST as he wanted to, then he would prepare to be a vagrant, a a wanderer like Jesus and the rest of the disciples? Jesus was giving a Caveat Emptor. . . a buyer beware, a warranty notice of going everywhere with him. He DID NOT SAY NO.

The next verse has Jesus asking another to follow him. If your statement that he was concerned about lodging, is true, then why should Jesus ask another to follow him? and when another offered to follow him and wanted to go and say goodbye at home, why didn't Jesus say "Go ahead. In fact, there's no space?" rather, Jesus said if he turned back and did not make a decision at the second, he wasn't fit for the kingdom! i.e. if he goes home to say Goodbye he may be convinced to stay back and not follow Christ again!

I am now convinced further that you only deliberately twist the scriptures for your own gain. It's appalling.

InesQor:

Luk 8:3 And Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager; and Susanna; and many others, who ministered to and provided for Him and them out of their property and personal belongings. (AMP)

Luk 8:3 And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance. (KJV)

The word translated substance is huparchonta

They ministered in KIND. They used their possessions to help the ministry.

Luke 8:2 (God's Word Translation)
Also,some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Madgalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, (3) Joanna, whose husband Chuza was Herod's administrator,Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.


huparchonta: is used in generic terms for giving; either financial or material. This is not an issue any way. several translations gave it to either way. But primarily financial, and if materials, it should be something portable enough to take and sell in exchange for money such as gold, necklace,precious and things which was common in their days, That was why peter could ask for the woman's perfume to be sold.

Joagbaje:


Luke 8:2  (God's Word Translation)
Also,some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Madgalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, (3) Joanna, whose husband Chuza was Herod's administrator,Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.


huparchonta: is used in generic terms for giving; either financial or material. This is not an issue any way. several translations gave it to either way. But primarily financial, and if materials, it should be something portable enough to take and  sell in exchange for money such as gold, necklace,precious and things which was common in their days,

Please can you NOT show us translations, because anybody can make a transcription of the Bible and pass it off as a translation? Rather, PLEASE show us where you got your definition for huparchonta because mine is from Strong's concordance.

Joagbaje:
That was why  peter could ask for the woman's perfume to be sold.

I assume you mean Judas?  (John 12:4-5)

InesQor:


Is it not clear here Jesus was warning the first guy that if he follows WHEREVER THOU GOEST as he wanted to, then he would prepare to be a vagrant, a a wanderer like Jesus and the rest of the disciples? Jesus was giving a Caveat Emptor. . . a buyer beware, a warranty notice of going everywhere with him. He DID NOT SAY NO.

The next verse has Jesus asking another to follow him. If your statement that he was concerned about lodging, is true, then why should Jesus ask another to follow him? and when another offered to follow him and wanted to go and say goodbye at home, why didn't Jesus say "Go ahead. In fact, there's no space?" rather, Jesus said if he turned back and did not make a decision at the second, he wasn't fit for the kingdom! i.e. if he goes home to say Goodbye he may be convinced to stay back and not follow Christ again!

You made a good point here, I will still re check it, but we have a common ground that Jesus was not a Hobo.

In your replies, try not to skip post #35

InesQor:

Please can you NOT show us translations, because anybody can make a transcription of the Bible and pass it off as a translation? Rather, PLEASE show us where you got your definition for huparchonta because mine is from Strong's concordance.
I assume you mean Judas?  (John 12:4-5)

It is a general word for giving of handy portable things , such as money, jeweries etc.  but not large things and not perishable things as food.

huparchonta,  hoop-ar'-khon-tah; neuter plural of presumed participle active of Greek 5225 (huparcho) as noun; things extant or in hand, i.e. property or possessions :- goods, that which one has, things which (one) possesseth, substance, that hast.

extant  means non perishable.

The bible says Judas (not peter, thanks for correction) had the  bag ; Bag of money , simply put. He helped himself out of it, and Jesus sends him to take money from it to buy things

John 13:29
   For some of them thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus had said unto him, Buy those things that we have need of against the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor.

John 13:29   (Amplified)
Some thought that, since Judas had the money box, (the purse),

Some  translations says , he had the Money bag. Other says he was the treasurer.

John 4:8
   For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.

Non-perishable does not mean that it is money, even sandals and clothes are non-perishable. I agree that jewelry and other things may have been given, but those were things that the owners following Jesus could as well have worn on their bodies, but they dropped for the ministry to use.

I believe Judas was keeping IN ONE PLACE the things that the others regarded precious, for the sake of accountability.

The fact that Judas had a bag of money for the company DOES NOT MEAN that Jesus collected money from people and the bag was an offering bag.

Please supply more valid proof for your claims because the above does not suffice.

InesQor:

A little honesty, you said?  

Can you show us where Jesus ever asked for donations or contributions to be made? Is it not true that if I'm in a CEC service and I don't give voluntarily so-to-speak, then I have shown some disloyalty? We all know how these things work! We can't say that a pastor (if I respect him) says I should make a contribution and I won't!!! So how can you say I'm not being forced? If the pastor asks for the contribution every now and then, hasn't that become something else?

Or can you not see that this "giving" that the OP mentioned is rather trivial? Did Jesus live in luxury at the expense of his followers? Isn't it true that he was so much at par with them in living conditions that Judas had to single him out with a kiss, he was not distinguished in extravagant dressing or opulent expression?

Please stop for a second and think about all I said above before you hit the REPLY button.

You are bringing something else into the matter, the Op didnt talk about the pastor living in luxury at the expense of members, We shouldnt go to extremes. The pastor of that church has a professional job, He is not a full time pastor, he makes his own money and he is a giver. If you want to go  into the direction you are pressing here , you should open a new thread on it. ( pastoral luxury)

@ OnesQo

Simple question for you. Where did Jesus get the money he was spending?

^^
He was getting money from the mouth of fishes!

Since pastor chris is superhuman and "one with christ", why bother the masses for money all the time? Does he not know the way to bar beach or have fishes finished in lagos lagoon?

Joagbaje:


Luke 8:2 (God's Word Translation)
Also,some women were with him. They had been cured from evil spirits and various illnesses. These women were Mary, also called Madgalene, from whom seven demons had gone out, (3) Joanna, whose husband Chuza was Herod's administrator,Susanna; and many other women. They provided financial support for Jesus and his disciples.

And what about the same verses from the Amplified??

Luke 8:2-3, Amplified:
²And also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had been expelled; ³And Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager; and Susanna; and many others, who ministered to and provided for Him and them out of their property and personal belongings.

So, why is it that you're more inclined to paraphrased versions that seem to support your lust for money?

Joagbaje:

huparchonta: is used in generic terms for giving; either financial or material. This is not an issue any way. several translations gave it to either way. But primarily financial, and if materials, it should be something portable enough to take and sell in exchange for money such as gold, necklace,precious and things which was common in their days,

(1) In the first place, anyone who's seeking the gold, necklace and precious belongings of other people in order to do the work of the ministry is a thief. See 3 John 1:7 - is that example of Christian ministers what you read about taking people's gold, necklace and precious things? Paul could say, "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel" (Acts 20:33) - and does your recommendation sound similar, huh?

(2) How many places in the New Testament did you read that the Greek word 'huparchonta' (̔πάρχοντα) was "primarily financial"?!? I have tried to check, and I'm checking again - it refers to "possession" (the goods and property that people possess), and not money. If you find one single verse that indicates it is "primarily financial", please post it. I can guarantee you that the paraphrased version (God's Word translation) is misleading - and that prolly explains why you were happy to quote it.

Joagbaje:
That was why peter could ask for the woman's perfume to be sold.

Sorry, sir - it was not Peter that asked for the perfume to be sold; rather, it was your predecessor JUDAS the thief who piped up about such merchandising in John 12:3-6 ~~

[list]

John's Gospel:
Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment. Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him, Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor? This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

[/list]

Are you following in the steps of your predecessor, Judas? I guess that if there ever was any WOF expounder, it was Judas. Well done, Joagbaje.

viaro:

And what about the same verses from the Amplified??

Luke 8:2-3, Amplified:
²And also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had been expelled; ³And Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager; and Susanna; and many others, who ministered to and provided for Him and them out of their property and personal belongings.

So, why is it that you're more inclined to paraphrased versions that seem to support your lust for money?

(1) In the first place, anyone who's seeking the gold, necklace and precious belongings of other people in order to do the work of the ministry is a thief. See 3 John 1:7 - is that example of Christian ministers what you read about taking people's gold, necklace and precious things? Paul could say, "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel" (Acts 20:33) - and does your recommendation sound similar, huh?

(2) How many places in the New Testament did you read that the Greek word 'huparchonta' (̔πάρχοντα) was "primarily financial"?!? I have tried to check, and I'm checking again - it refers to "possession" (the goods and property that people possess), and not money. If you find one single verse that indicates it is "primarily financial", please post it. I can guarantee you that the paraphrased version (God's Word translation) is misleading - and that prolly explains why you were happy to quote it.

Sorry, sir - it was not Peter that asked for the perfume to be sold; rather, it was your predecessor JUDAS the thief who piped up about such merchandising in John 12:3-6 ~~

[list][/list]

Are you following in the steps of your predecessor, Judas? I guess that if there ever was any WOF expounder, it was Judas. Well done, Joagbaje.

with your insults and abuses,You are are as childish as ever, I wont borther to respond to you again .
Advise to you , let InesQo teach you how to discuss in a forum , I have great respect for his mature discussion yesterday.

Joagbaje:

with your insults and abuses,You are are as childish as ever, I wont borther to respond to you again .
Advise to you , let InesQo teach you how to discuss in a forum , I have great respect for his mature discussion yesterday.

I notice when your gimmicks and lust for money is being exposed, you scream that you're being insulted. You've tried that trick before and I let it pass. This time you won't get away with it.

Ignoring your own insult of 'you are as childish as ever', please address the questions. Or simply own up on your sleight of hand - it has never paid you to try deceiving the public.

viaro:

And what about the same verses from the Amplified??

Luke 8:2-3, Amplified:
²And also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary, called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had been expelled; ³And Joanna, the wife of Chuza, Herod's household manager; and Susanna; and many others, who ministered to and provided for Him and them out of their property and personal belongings.

So, why is it that you're more inclined to paraphrased versions that seem to support your lust for money?

(1) In the first place, anyone who's seeking the gold, necklace and precious belongings of other people in order to do the work of the ministry is a thief. See 3 John 1:7 - is that example of Christian ministers what you read about taking people's gold, necklace and precious things? Paul could say, "I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel" (Acts 20:33) - and does your recommendation sound similar, huh?

(2) How many places in the New Testament did you read that the Greek word 'huparchonta' (̔πάρχοντα) was "primarily financial"?!? I have tried to check, and I'm checking again - it refers to "possession" (the goods and property that people possess), and not money. If you find one single verse that indicates it is "primarily financial", please post it. I can guarantee you that the paraphrased version (God's Word translation) is misleading - and that prolly explains why you were happy to quote it.

Sorry, sir - it was not Peter that asked for the perfume to be sold; rather, it was your predecessor JUDAS the thief who piped up about such merchandising in John 12:3-6 ~~

[list][/list]

Are you following in the steps of your predecessor, Judas? I guess that if there ever was any WOF expounder, it was Judas. Well done, Joagbaje.

Please as a xtian,is it not possible to discuss issues in xtianity without hurling insults and abuses? I wonder whether we are walking in love or trying to show off our knowledge?

Tudór:

^^
He was getting money from the mouth of fishes!

Since pastor chris is superhuman and "one with christ", why bother the masses for money all the time? Does he not know the way to bar beach or have fishes finished in lagos lagoon?

ukotmi:

Please as a xtian,is it not possible to discuss issues in xtianity without hurling insults and abuses? I wonder whether we are walking in love or trying to show off our knowledge?

Love in Christianity will point out what is dubious in clear terms. There is no need for anyone who seeks that 'love' to deliberately be twisting God's Word, and that is why such behaviour should be challenged without treating the matter with kids glove (Eph. 5:11).

@Joagbaje: Hi. I apologize on viaro's behalf, but he really has valid points!

You are yet to show us how that word means monetary substance rather than material value. Maybe the word "financial" is to be blamed, but I hope you know financial is not necessary monetary? So, asking which money Jesus spent is a moot question.

I strongly believe that Jesus never had to use money to get value because goods and services were directly rendered to him by those who received him as Lord. When he needed a colt, he sent a message that THE LORD needs the young animal.

He ate free lunch with the publicans who had money to throw around.

Jesus was not poor but he wasnt a MONEYBAG either, he wore rich clothes (that the soldiers gambled for at Calvary) but he probably didnt buy it, the same women who bought perfumes and ointments would sensibly get clothes first.

The money with Judas was chicken change, small sums of money to be given to the poor. If it was so much money, Judas would rather flee with it than sell his conscience for the high priest's peanuts when he betrayed Jesus.

Jesus was not poor, but they didnt have cash lying around either, neither did they have gold or silver to sell for cash, otherwise Jesus would not ask Peter to fish for a coin, as Tudor reminded us, when they were compelled to pay tax. Unlike today when ministries rake in cash and they pay no tax!

As for what I said on luxury, please read the OP again to evaluate the red carpet treatment and fairly ask yourself if that is luxury or not.

viaro:

Love in Christianity will point out what is dubious in clear terms. There is no need for anyone who seeks that 'love' to deliberately be twisting God's Word, and that is why such behaviour should be challenged without treating the matter with kids glove (Eph. 5:11).

I think you are missing the whole point. What we are doing here is learning and hearing out what the other fellow is saying. You dont know what i believe neither where I worship. I try to tow a middle line-that xtians should avoid insults and discuss issues maturely with scriptural references. No xtian can lay claim to knowing it all.When I notice the only[i]y me knows it all attitude[/i] , off i go. No xtian no matter his level has the power to determine who enters the kingdom of God. I only know in part period.
I enjoy going thru all the posts here but the insults some posters haul here, you will think that special authority is handed over to them.

davidylan:


The despicable use of the gospel to falsely needle the poor of their money is sad.

what makes financial givings in church so peculiar that it tends to command so much attention most of which are a grand shameful display of the dept of the ignorance that has eaten deep into the religious church into the deem-light zone of poverty and penury. when people make a giving at the native doctor's shrine or politicians make mega financial contributions nobody says anything, the truth is that most of this people are helping to fulfill satan's agenda of discredition the church Christ Jesus. the truth of the matter is that whether anybody likes it or not the Church as the pillar, ground as well as the custodian of the truth can not successfully make known the message of the gospel of Christ Jesus.

Zec. 1:17 "cry yet, saying, thus say the Lord of host; my cities through properity shall be spread abroad, "

the message of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is in fact FREE but SHEY THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR: ITS NOT CHEAP!!

ukotmi:

I think you are missing the whole point. What we are doing here is learning and hearing out what the other fellow is saying. You dont know what i believe neither where I worship. I try to tow a middle line-that xtians should avoid insults and discuss issues maturely with scriptural references. No xtian can lay claim to knowing it all.When I notice the only[i]y me knows it all attitude[/i] , off i go. No xtian no matter his level has the power to determine who enters the kingdom of God. I only know in part period.
I enjoy going thru all the posts here but the insults some posters haul here, you will think that special authority is handed over to them.

I think you miss the point yourself if all you want to see is 'insults'. I don't try to pretend myself as a 'know-it-all', but that is not the same thing as keeping quiet when pertinent issues are deliberately twisted out of hand. I have not based my posts or comments on where you worship, so what's all that about?

I am not a member of CEC,but from what u urself threw up,it shows u re not even yet a Christian,if anything shld happen.its nt sure u re making it.I'll advise u give ur life now b4 its 2 late.Remember there's no particular denomination in Heaven.

the bible says from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. ganjaseed has just shown how debased and shalow his thoughts are. take a look at his name ganja-seed , what a name

newmi:


the message of the gospel (good news) of Jesus Christ is in fact FREE but SHEY THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE WANT TO HEAR: ITS NOT CHEAP!!

is that what you have summed up in your mind then this is real nonsense.

If the WORD OF GOD is Not Cheap then it's expensive right? And if it is Free why would it become not so cheap? did you think it through before your overzealous christianity wrote that rubbish?

Please fellas wats up wit timaya n nico gravity? is timaya really in jail?

[sighs & shakes head]  

Reading the comments of JoeAgbaje and others in this thread has left me with a headache. I can't help but be amazed at the dexterity with which he twists the scriptures (imposing his own ideas into it) and then dodges simple, direct questions thrown at him to answer which if ansewered honestly, will see his unchristian theolgy/ideals fall apart.  

I just hope i don't have any nightmares this night sha.  

Many thanks to a handful of others like Viaro, tpia, daviddylan, Jesoul, InesQue (who's actually shown tremendous patience in discussing with JoeAgbage in this thread) and even Tudor (an atheist!) who seems to see clearly what someone who professes Christ has been dancing around for days. Reading your inputs has been encouraging - at least not everyone subscribes to the current culture of bending scriptures to suit our greed.

It is well.

OK, OK, i've bn ffg this thread for a while now and i'll try 2 be as brief as possible in my Submission.

Preamble:
i am a CHRISTIAN, i believe in God, thru Jesus Christ His ONLY Son; by whom NO ONE gets to d Father but thru Him.

Point:
-RELIGION is a B****!
-The "Church" has FAILED us all.
-PURPOSE has been defiled.
-Conscience dissolved by Greed, fueled by Hate!

Conclusion:
-Everyman for himself, God for us all!!!
-God will not come for "A Church" as in denomination or parish, but "The Church" as in the body of true believers.
-Holiness/perfection ne'er equals absence of sin, but abundance of grace.

Warning:
-Attack d issue; not d person,
-Any of y'all "Goody-two-shoes" who dares diss me will GET IT, REAL BAD!!!