₦airaland Forum

shdemidemi: ^^

Does this mean if I like money as a Christian, I am hell bound?

You haven't removed the forward slash inside the first quote tag (i.e. leave out the slash inside[/quote]"They magnified and glorified their God...)
and your post should display correctly or should be alright

Why should one be hellbound, one will only be hellbound if one's love of money leads to committing evil now

I had earlier responded to you that:
Matt 19:28, is subject to change, concerning Judas
Judas wasn't a sheep that listened to the Voice
Everyone knows Judas was of the world
Judas wasn't given like the others were to Jesus.

These verses backs it up bro:

¹⁴Then one of the Twelve—the one called Judas Iscariot—went to the chief priests
¹⁵and asked, “What are you willing to give me if I deliver him over to you?”
So they counted out for him thirty pieces of silver.
¹⁶From then on Judas watched for an opportunity to hand him over.
- Matthew 26:14-16 NIV

³When Judas, who had betrayed him, realized that Jesus had been condemned to die, he was filled with remorse.
So he took the thirty pieces of silver back to the leading priests and the elders.
⁴“I have sinned,” he declared, “for I have betrayed an innocent man.”
“What do we care?” they retorted. “That’s your problem.”
- Matthew 27:3-4 NLT

⁹“My prayer is not for the world, but for those you have given me, because they belong to you.
¹⁰All who are mine belong to you, and you have given them to me, so they bring me glory.
¹¹Now I am departing from the world; they are staying in this world, but I am coming to you.
Holy Father, you have given me your name;
now protect them by the power of your name so that they will be united just as we are.
¹²During my time here, I protected them by the power of the name you gave me.
I guarded them so that not one was lost, except the one headed for destruction, as the Scriptures foretold
- John 17:9-12 NLT

^^^
Remove the front facing slash in the first[/quote]and it should be alright
I am reading your submission
from what I've so far read, you don't want to agree that "...love of money is the root of all kinds of evil" applies to Judas sha

For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil.
Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs
- 1 Timothy 6:10 NIV

shdemidemi: The picking of pharaoh is different from that of judas...
Pharaoh was picked, not to be a son or a friend of God
but an enemy raised from a part of the world that was already condemned.
God was not the God of the Egyptians or pharaoh, He was the God of Israel.

Judas happen to be a part of God's people and also a part of the remnant who accepted Christ as the messiah.

Judas was not of the world but of God, on the other hand pharaoh was never a part of God.

Did God harden the man's heart? Yes

What then happened after they were liberated from the hands of pharaoh?
They magnified and glorified their God.
That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God.

Of course God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose,
going by the angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place.
Man will fall but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace.

Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan".
Does that make Peter the satan? I don't think so.
Neither does it make judas the satan but they were both influenced by satan to act the way they did.

Looking at it from an holistic view, even the devil obliviously carry out God's plan.
If The devil had known, he wouldn't have disturbed Jesus at all
but by the death of Jesus the world was redeemed from sin and the captivity of the devil and God's wrath.

Pharaoh, Egypt was selected because they would be reigning superpower of that region at the time
Pharaoh, just like Judas was a willing candidate, so he footed the bill

As for Judas been remnant or no remnant,
his is a matter like Uzzah: touch the Ark, get burnt
Judas was culpable of: "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do My prophets no harm."
Was he not?

OK "God knew Adam and Eve will fall. He created man for that purpose"
What is the substance behind what the purpose is all about?
Why were Adam and Eve created for the purpose to fall?
What is the "angelic conflict which made God make man in the first place." all about?
If "Man will fall" why, what is the idea behind continuing making man?
What is the rational and of course rational, as in meaning based on or in accordance with reason or logic,
behind "but God will show His love by forgiving man by His grace"
So is this all just about or for the sake of showing love through forgiveness and grace?

You keep saying Judas was not of the world
but Judas loved money so much now,
this hence bro, means he is a worldly man

From the moment you begged to differ up to now
have I said anything otherwise or different to what you've so far posted?

"They magnified and glorified their God.
That was all God wanted from them, He wanted them to see Him and honour Him as their God"
- Is that all? Is that what it was all about then? To see Him and honour Him as their God?
God must have been so much in need of a badly wanted ego stroke then

You fail to see that you're making out that God likes the idea of going on an ego trip
You also keep just dropping clichés here and there all over the thread.

Of course "Jesus used similar terms to describe Peter, when he said "get thee behind me, satan"
but He prayed for Peter but didn't bother same for Judas (i.e. as he was a lost cause)

It'll be interesting to see what your responses to those interrogative questions above will be

shdemidemi: God knew The Israelites would be enslaved and He knew how long the will be there for.
Everything in the mind of God played itself out and all actors acted their part according to how God had planned it.

Could pharaoh have done otherwise? No.
It was all God's plan even before pharaoh was born.
The event of that dat still serve as a memorial in the Nate nation of Israel today.
God took the glory and His people sang His praise as they left Egypt destroyed.

Jesus said the twelve disciples will be there to judge Israel ... Did He speak amiss?

But these people were chosen for the job and they carried out thr ministry to the letter.... Or did they?

You're cracking me up bro - no offense
What's different in what I've so far all along said with yours?

I earlier said:
God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked

and quoted this verse too:
Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Pharaoh's heart was hardening but God was restraining it until when at the appointed time, He couldn't careless anymore
but the way you're turning this into, it's like you're making out that God was/is on an ego-trip
Nothing gets past Jesus or God
Does anyone think God did not know Adam and Eve would eat of the tree of knowledge of good & evil?
Same with Judas bro
After all God is omni- know everything at every time, omniscient

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the Twelve? And yet one of you is a devil.”
- John 6:70 ESV

shdemidemi: God handpicked Pharaoh for destruction so His people (israelites) can give Him glory.
Pharaoh was never a part of God, God was only concerned about His people and their relationship with Him.

As for Judas, he was a jew- not only was he a part of God's people by birth through flesh, he also became a part of God's people through Christ by the Spirit.

He can't possibly be called a part of the world... God needed Judas, Jesus needed Judas and more importantly you and I needed judas .

I guess you're done bro, as I was waiting for you to finish typing and publishing

By the way bro, I didn't read your comment or take on the below:

- reproduced -

"... almost gave in?" pull the other leg
Pharaoh had no intention of giving in, he was only playing for time.
God had had enough of his self amusement game, so He pulled the rug from under him

I bet you know this too:
How on earth is one going to build up a nation of nearly 2.5 - 4M
and overnight sneak them into Canaan to claim the land
without rousing the suspicions of the natives

Egypt, the superpower of that time was used, just as the leader Pharaoh was, to shield or cover Israel until the appointed time

- /reproduced -

You aren't that so much churched that you wouldn't know what a worldly person is

If it wasn't going to be Pharaoh, it will be someone else
If wasn't going to be Egypt, it will be another superpower in the region at that time
If not Judas, it'll be someone else
Did God not handpick King Saul?
It doesn't mean because one is picked one cant become or turn into a casualty

shdemidemi: ^^^ but judas was hand picked by Jesus Himself, did He make a mistake picking judas?

Judas was not just anyone who listened, believed and followed Christ, he was a special follower- an apostle and a disciple of Jesus Christ. He also had a special office, he was responsible for keeping money.

How then can we call him a part of the world bro?

God hand-picked Pharaoh too, among others similar
Pharaoh was a deliberate choice, it wasn't just happenstance that it happened.
It wasn't a coincidence that Pharaoh was picked

Then the LORD said to Abram,
"You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years"
- Genesis 15:13 NLT

Jesus, God, makes no mistakes.

Exactly what I meant, which is Judas was a worldly individual
- He was more concerned with material values or things rather than a spiritual existence.

Image123: I thought Jesus prayed for all His disciples?

Tallesty1: He said a special prayer for Peter.
Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Image123: All His prayers were special i guess, i concur they're not all recorded though.

shdemidemi: Like every natural man would think, Peter thought and asked Christ what their (the twelve plus judas) gain would be for leaving everything behind to follow Christ- Christ responded by saying-

Mat 19:28And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Is this statement subject to change?

Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me
- John 6:37 GOD'S WORD® Translation

25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all ; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand
- John 10:25-29 NIV

"I pray for them. I'm not praying for the world but for those you gave me, because they are yours.
- John 17:9 GOD'S WORD® Translation

"Father, I want those you have given to me to be with me, to be where I am.
I want them to see my glory, which you gave me because you loved me before the world was made.
- John 17:24 GOD'S WORD® Translation

Matt 19:28, is subject to change, concerning Judas
Judas wasn't a sheep that listened to the Voice
Everyone knows Judas was of the world
Judas wasn't given
Maybe shdemidemi can share an alternate view on this

shdemidemi: @babagnoni

I beg to differ a bit with the above.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

God used pharaoh as a tool that will enable His people to glorify Him.
He created pharaoh for that sole purpose, God hardened his mind even when he almost gave in.

I agree with you on the above, I wasn't saying otherwise
The opportunity did not arise or warrant me mentioning that God used Pharaoh as a tool

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power:
for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
- Rev 4:11 KJ Bible

God created Pharaoh, just as He did Judas.

"... almost gave in"? pull the other leg
Pharaoh had no intention of giving in, he was only playing for time.
God had had enough of his self amusement game, so He pulled the rug from under him

I bet you know this too:
How on earth is one going to build up a nation of nearly 2.5 - 4M
and overnight sneak them into Canaan to claim the land
without rousing the suspicions of the natives

Egypt, the superpower of that time was used, just as the leader Pharaoh was, to shield or cover Israel until the appointed time

shdemidemi: Like every natural man would think, Peter thought and asked Christ what their (the twelve plus judas) gain would be for leaving everything behind to follow Christ- Christ responded by saying-

Mat 19:18And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Is this statement subject to change?

^^^
Shouldn't that be Matt 19:28?

Tallesty1: It is better we stop this because I don't want to sound like an unbeliever,
whats the sense in hardening some's heart and then punish him and his people for disobedient?

Pharaoh was hardening his heart already but God was restraining him from doing it

so when God eventually succumbed to Pharaoh's strong desire to harden his heart,
it means that by virtue of God withdrawing his hand on Pharaoh's heart, He in effect indirectly hardened it.

Like the the two kids analogy, others will say, you made them fight, when you stopped separating them and allowed the fight to go on
whereas all along Kid B had been raring to have the fight a lot more earlier before the time the fight eventually took place.

Nothing to do with punishing him or his people sir,
Pharaoh had all along long time wanted to go that route but God was holding it back

Image123: i want to keep it private please, thanks. i simply liked and learnt something from that part. You're overreacting i think.

Curiosity is not overreacting
It is just a strong desire to know or learn something, just like you've said you liked and learned
I think the overreacting shoe is on the other foot, not mine

Take, I'll now have to delete my addy then

Image123: My point exactly. Peter didn't commit suicide despite disappointing everybody.

I can't exactly see your point.
I think stating the point clearly, in detail, and leaving no room for confusion or doubt what the point is would be a good idea.
So why would Judas commit suicide then, if Peter disappointed everybody just like him but he didn't commit suicide despite

Image123: private, thanks.

You can tell me in private
and the secret will be safe with me
Here is my addy to mail it to: deleted

Image123: He disappointed everybody.

Do you always peddle one-liners?
State clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt what the reason(s) is please, was the request.

Did Peter too not disappoint everybody?
Why would Judas commit suicide based on that and Peter wouldn't?

Image123: loved this part, for something else though not this issue.

...and what would that "something else" be?

Image123: Same reason Judas allegedly committed suicide.

State clearly and in detail, leaving no room for confusion or doubt what the reason(s) is please.

Tallesty1: Honestly I don't

oic again, as I thought you did know...

It is very similar to what happened to Pharaoh.
Both minds have already been made up
there is no point wasting time and effort on either anymore,
as they both were hellbent (i.e. both were determined to achieve at all costs what they've set their minds on to do)

The answers lie in the following verses:

But I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
- Exodus 7:3 NLT

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and just as the LORD had predicted to Moses, Pharaoh refused to listen.
- Exodus 9:12 NLT

23He replied, “One of you who has just eaten from this bowl with me will betray me.
24For the Son of Man must die, as the Scriptures declared long ago.
But how terrible it will be for the one who betrays him.
It would be far better for that man if he had never been born!”
25Judas, the one who would betray him, also asked, “Rabbi, am I the one?”
And Jesus told him, “You have said it.”
- Matthew 26:23-25 NLT

When Judas had eaten the bread, Satan entered into him.
Then Jesus told him,
"Hurry and do what you're going to do."
- John 13:27 NLT

Judas like Pharaoh, can be compared with wet sponges...
Wet sponges that want to dry out the water keeping them wet, which eventually ends to getting hardened up
but are kept from drying up and hardening
by God keeping them wet through continually pouring water on the sponges
The moment God cuts off the stream of water pouring on them,
the sponges in a matter of time will dry out, harden up and be brittle

Have you ever tried pottery,
where you put the clay on the pottery wheel to make a vase
The clump of clay is always resisting you shaping it into the vase
The clump of clay will fall off the pottery wheel unfinished and damaged, the moment you let go your hands in molding it
Keep your hands on it until the end, you'll have a beautiful vase

Another analogy is this:
Kid A and kid B, are sizing each other up, breathing into each one's face, each raring for a fight
Right at the nick of time, you step in to prevent the fight starting
but kid B, will not have none of that as adrenalin and testosterone is pumping high
Kid B is spoiling for the fight, despite all appeal or effort to prevent it
Everyone knows kid B is no match for Kid A, as kid A will beat the living day lights out of kid B
but kid B does NOT agree nor wants to know (i.e. kid B is hellbent, determined to fight at all costs, not matter what)
In effect, kid B's heart is hardening for/to fight
You harden kid B's heart, the moment you step back and allow kid B to have the fight, he's so much set his heart on

That's how Pharaoh's heart got hardened (i.e. the restraining, like in the case of kid B, was let off)
and similar happened to Judas, he was let go (i.e. as he was a lost cause, who couldn't be changed for the better)

Tallesty1: That is what I'm asking.

oic
but apart from you asking, do you know why, yourself?

Image123: Peter didn't commit suicide. Indeed, i'll rather die than commit suicide.

How do you mean? What are you on about?
Why would Peter want to intentionally kill himself?
What for, what over, what about?

Image123: hehehehehehe. BTW, Judas was not programmed or forced to be the 'fall guy'. He allowed satan to enter him.

Doesn't satan enter everyone else?
Didn't satan enter Eden, as an example, to start with?
God even allows satan free rein, as Job will testify
Satan goes anywhere satan likes
Satan is always walking up and down, patrolling the earth, watching everyone and everything that goes on
which is why one is advised to be watchful, be alert, be sober, mindful and not to give satan a foothold

Tallesty1: Same way he entered Peter but Jesus prayed for Peter, a privilege Judas never had.

Why did Peter deserve a prayer and Judas never had one?
What made Jesus pray for Peter but not pray for Judas?

Tallesty1: I will be disapointed if I go to heaven and do not see that guy.

Who exactly would you be disappointed not seeing in heaven if/when you get there?
Why do you expect (i.e. what is the qualification(s)) him to be in heaven in the first place at all?

jacksonite: Right from the Old Testament,there is prediction of the coming of Christ
and of how he will suffer, be betrayed,be crucified and by that he will save mankind.

The betrayal was foretold even before Judas was born.
There were many other ways by which Jesus would have laid down his life
but the choice was for him to be betrayed by Judas first.
Judas might have committed abomination by betraying Jesus but that is a matter between him and God.
For Christians,we should acknowledge that his action led to our redemption. After all he repented when he realized his mistake.
Many of us today commit worse atrocities that do not serve us or any one else any good.
What would have happened if at the final hour Judas had refused betraying Jesus,how else would the scripture have been fulfilled.
Of course you would say that he could not have done otherwise.
The reason is that he was programed to behave so from the word go.

I am honest and sincere, I am not trying to pull a Socrates stunt here with these questions ooo:

What are the many other ways by which Jesus could have laid down his life?
Why did He then, not chose any of the many other ways by which Jesus could have laid down his life?
Who was the programmer?
How was he programmed to behave so from the word go?

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F7: HOLY GHOST LAUGHTER along with slain in the spirit[/size]

https://s27.postimg.org/h7eu8f02n/c2_Laughter.jpghttps://s27.postimg.org/dl90vrtpf/c_Haha_Ho_Ho.jpghttps://s27.postimg.org/wrm7yya73/c_Laughter.jpg

Introduction and discussion about this doctrine (i.e. holy ghost laughter etc) as taught by WoF to follow soon
Watch this space:
Go to: https://www.nairaland.com/1790500/word-faith-movements-doctrine-proponents/7#24937905

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F7: HOLY GHOST LAUGHTER along with slain in the spirit[/size]

^^^
DrummaBoy, you're 100% right,
the Pharisee were before formerly for and of the people,
until when they became distant to the people and later got transformed into "Far-to-see"
- evidence of stomach politics missing there
The Sadducee on the other hand, were the elitist,
they were the "Sad-to-see" who snobbishly, it is alleged, looked down on the Pharisees and especially in derogatory manners too.
The other third group would be the Essenes

It is worth noticing too that Adam and Eve were na_ked after disobeying
and Jesus too in obeying became na_ked when restoring man back to God

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION (contd) ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

This discussion is being concluded at this point,
of course, gaps were left in it, this is due to unforeseeable circumstances and little time right now too

There are a number of detailed explanations missing or left undealt with.
Like not dealing with the spiritual death and spiritual resurrection of Jesus in contrary to how WoF teaches it
Both were not discussed in relation with the Holy Place and the Holy of Holies etc
https://s27.postimg.org/e8dt9s0kj/Spiritual_Death_Veil_Copy.jpg
Also did not explain the meaning and implication of the 3 hour pitch black darkness
(i.e. the details behind darkness as being the absence of or separation from God) in contrary to how WoF teaches it
https://s29.postimg.org/nf6mn3zrb/Spirit_Separation_God_c.jpg
Nor discussed was happening or what transpired during the black-out
It was not even compared with a similar darkness that happened in Egypt
(i.e. the darkness that happened in Egypt but which did not affect the Israelites close by in Goshen)
Also, in contrary to how WoF teaches it, the opportunity to debunk Jesus going to Hell (i.e. Gehenna) was not exploited

The fact, truth and thrust of the whole discussion is that Jesus died on the cross at Calvary/Golgota (i.e. place of the Skull)
as our passover lamb for the atonement of our sins
His resurrection three days later served to prove His power and deity as God
which incidentally He had earlier proved anyway when He brought Lazarus back from the dead.

As this discussion winds down some details to note
about Jesus, the kangaroo court, the false witnesses, charges of blasphemy, the Cross and the Crucifixion
is the interesting parallel and similarity with the encounter between Elijah, Jezebel, Naboth and Jezreel

Elijah needs no introduction, nor does Jezebel as such need any
apart from the fact that it was her that made Elijah have a death-wish after she almost killed all the prophets in the land.
Naboth means “fruit produce” and Jezreel means "God will sow" <insert meaning of Jezreel here>

Naboth was the owner of a vineyard next to King Ahab's palace in Jezreel (refer to: 1 Kings 21:1)
King Ahab coveted the vineyard and approached Naboth for it
Naboth refused and did not oblige giving the vineyard to the king,
He gave a valid excuse of the Israelite tradition of keeping land in the family as an inheritance.
Ahab became miserable and confided in his partner, Jezebel.
Jezebel promised the king she'll get the vineyard for him and took matters up in her hands.

She summoned Nabot to a bogus trial orchestrated for him,
where she arranged for false accusers to bring charges of blasphemy against him.
Naboth was found guilty, condemned to die and later was stoned to death.
When Ahab heard that Naboth was dead, he got up and went down to conveniently take possession of Naboth’s vineyard.

God sent Elijah to confront Ahab about the incident
and the following conversation as in 1 Kings 21:17-20, 23 occurred:

1 Kings 21:17-20, 23 NIV
17Then the word of the Lord came to Elijah the Tishbite:
18“Go down to meet Ahab king of Israel, who rules in Samaria. He is now in Naboth’s vineyard, where he has gone to take possession of it.
19Say to him, ‘This is what the Lord says:
Have you not murdered a man and seized his property?’
Then say to him,
‘This is what the Lord says: In the place where dogs licked up Naboth’s blood, dogs will lick up your blood—yes,
20Ahab said to Elijah, “So you have found me, my enemy!”
“I have found you,” he answered, “because you have sold yourself to do evil in the eyes of the Lord.
23“And also concerning Jezebel the Lord says: ‘Dogs will devour Jezebel by the wall of Jezreel.’

Ahab and Jezebel's illegal possession of Naboth's vineyard did not go scot free as Elijah's prophecy about them came to pass.
Ahab was mortally wounded in battle (1 Kings 22:35 )
and Jezebel was thrown to her death at the command of Jehu, who brought Ahab's dynasty to an end (2 Kings 9:33 )

When Jehu asked that Jezebel be buried (i.e. bury her for she is a king's daughter)
the eunuchs (note devoid of any attraction for the profane Jezebel) came back saying, nothing was found of her, except for her skull, two hands and feet

But when they went to bury her, they found no more of her than the skull and the feet and the palms of her hands.
2 Kings 9:35 ESV

https://s13.postimg.org/q97uw12mv/cruci_c.jpg
<insert calvary pic here>
Just like what was left of Jezebel (i.e. her skull, her feet and the palms of her hands which were difficult to destroy)
Jesus hung on the cross (i.e. His skull bruised with thorn crown, feet and palms of His hands nailed to the cross)
destroying the power of darkness and getting rid of this symbol of evil.

Incidentally, John in a message to the church in Thyatira (note Thyatira means continual sacrifice, sacrifice of labor or perfume)
again warns about tolerating that woman Jezebel (i.e. false teachers) in the church.
Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says:

18“To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze.
19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first.
20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.
21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling.
22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering,
and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways.
23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds,
and I will repay each of you according to your deeds
24Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching
and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you,
25except to hold on to what you have until I come.’
26To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—
27that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’
—just as I have received authority from my Father.
28I will also give that one the morning star.
29Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches
Revelation 2:18-29 NIV

I REST MY CASE ON F6, FOR NOW.
[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION (contd) ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

Jesus did not grow to be an old man, He was a young man of 33 years old,
when He was arrested by the Temple guards, on the orders of the leaders of Temple (i.e. the Sanhedrin)

Sanhedrin actually is a Greek word meaning joint session, tribunal or council.
By the time of Jesus Christ, while the Israelites were under Roman rule, the Sanhedrin had great authority,
They even are mentioned in the New Testament in references to being highest Jewish judicial council.
The council consisted of 71 members of leading priests and the teachers of religious law
(i.e. including both Pharisees and Sadducees) presided over by the high priest.

Now, the Sanhedrin were the beneficiaries and collectors of tithes and sacrifices in the Temple
and for a lot of different reasons were bitter opponents of Jesus,
as they particularly felt threatened by Jesus' messages and the Gospel.

Jesus frequently used to tongue-lash and lambast the teachers of the law, the Pharisees etc
warning against their hypocrisy, calling them snakes, brood of vipers, blind fools, blind men etc
He also called them whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside
but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean
He said they were full of greed and self-indulgence.
At one instance he declared seven miseries one after the other at the Pharisees in a seating (i.e. 7 woes altogether in Matthew 23:13- 29)

So, as at time of Jesus' arrest, the Sanhedrin plot to deal with Jesus actually had been ongoing for the past 3 years.
- the bible records seven instances of official plotting against Him, two previous attempts at arrest and three assassination attempts.

It is worth noting that, this is the same Sanhedrin
(i.e. council - the 71 members, leading priests and the teachers of religious law including both Pharisees and Sadducees)
that Peter and John were brought before and who ordered Peter and John to stop teaching the Gospel

Anyway, the incident which broke the camel's back regarding Jesus, for the Sanhedrin was
when Jesus whipped and drove out the money changers etc from the Temple
saying to them:
"The Scriptures declare,
'My Temple will be called a house of prayer,' but you have turned it into a den of thieves!"

The Sanhedrin took exception to that Jesus-Temple incident, and so it became the showdown
that then led to the development or series of events and actions that ended on the Cross at Calvary.

The Sanhedrin after that Jesus-Temple incident had then decided to kill Jesus there and then
but were waiting for the right and best opportunity to successfully carry it out.

They literally had signed His death warrant, which unaided and politically they are unable to carry out,
as only the Romans can authorise and carry out death sentences

Eventually, Jesus, with the help of one of the disciples, Judas, who betrayed Him,
was arrested by the temple guards, and brought before the Sanhedrin for a trial.

At the trial, the council were looking for evidence against Jesus
so that they could put him to death, but they couldn't get credible ones
as many were giving false testimony against Him, and the account of their testimonies were not adding up.

The high priest eventually used a technicality that Jesus called Himself God as blasphemy worthy of death
so on this trumped-up charge the council condemned Jesus as worthy of death

The council (i.e. Sanhedrin) is now in a bit of a pickle, they've condemned Jesus to death
but it isn't official or legally right to have Jesus die not until Rome says so

The murder weapon:
On that night people spat at Jesus,
He was blindfolded when other people struck him with their fists,
the temple guards took turns in beating Him too.

The next day, the council (i.e. Sanhedrin) literally frog-marched Jesus to Pilate
In Pilate's court is the murder weapon that will kill Jesus
Pilate interrogated Jesus, found Him innocent of all charges against Him
but succumbed to political pressure from the council (i.e. Sanhedrin) to have Jesus executed.

Pilate enforced the execution and so was the trigger of the murder weapon
but the council (i.e. Sanhedrin) was the bullet of the murder weapon that killed Jesus.

Jesus was condemned to death and sentenced to die by Crucifixion (i.e. to die on a cross)
Death by an electric chair or lethal injection is child's play when compared with Crucifixion.
Jesus was nailed on that Cross at Golgotha for 6 hours before He physically died.

Crucifixion, as used by the Roman Empire, is a slow and painful form of capital punishment.
It is an ancient form of execution in which the person is nailed or bound to a cross

It is a legally authorised form of killing someone as punishment for a crime,
only that in Jesus' case there was no crime. He is innocent.
Although He was legally sentenced to death albeit on trumped up charges, it was MURDER

The word crucifixion actually comes from the Latin word "crucifixio" and it means "fixed to a cross"

The English word excruciating, meaning something extremely painful or intense,
comes from the Latin word for torture or pain out of or from crucifying (i.e. Crucifixion)

It is one of the most inhumane, cruel, barbaric kind of death penalty then at that time.
Only state/political dissidents or really bad criminals are given death by Crucifixion Jesus was sentenced to.
And with Jesus, things were pretty bad...
Jesus earlier in the garden of Gethsemane where He was arrested had earlier
had a premonition too that things looked pretty bad.

Crime scene evidences (e.g. body - blood, water and spirit):
The murder weapon has been established, crime scene evidences (e.g. body - blood, water and spirit) surrounding the commission of this crime needs examining.

Unlike other criminals condemned to death by Crucifixion, Jesus' death was chilly, gruesome and horrible
Jesus was already beaten beyond recognition, and He is about going to receive nails hammered in on His hands and feet

The nails were hammered or knocked into His hands
and some have written that there’s a tendon which extends till the shoulder,
and when the nails were being hammered, that tendon broke,
obliging Jesus to reinforce all the muscles of His back,
so that He could breath as He was loosing all the air from his lungs.

In this way, He was forced to support Himself onto the nail driven in to His feet,
which was bigger than those nailed into His hands, for both feet were nailed together.
And, as His feet could not endure for long time without tearing,
Jesus was forced to alternate that “cycle” so that He could breath.

Jesus endured this extreme physical and mental suffering for 6 hours
He was offered myrrh (i.e. a form of pain killer) soaked in a cloth but refused it
He not only shed blood but also poured out blood and water from His wounds

Jesus carried for almost 2 kilometres, the 30kg weight of wood
which was for the higher part of the cross, where His hands were to be nailed on

The crowd jeered at Him, tore off hairs from His cheek, pulled out His beards,
spat on His face and threw stones at Him as He walked carrying the wood to the execution place.

Psalm 22:12-17
“For dogs have surrounded Me; the congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet; I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
(i.e. Psalm 22 describes all the humiliation in detail)

He shed blood from the beatings He took, from the crown of thorns pushed down on His head
and from the three nails hammered into His hands and feet.

He poured out blood and water from His side from the piercing of a Roman spear.
No guts. No glory. Jesus gave all up, the ghost, His body.

God underwent all these sufferings, to reconcile us with Himself.
and bridge the gap so that we can have free access back to Him.
Jesus did all these things so that our sins be washed off, all of them, with no exception!
Our sins be forgiven and forgotten

Some will deny He did all these things on the way to Calvary
and had these things done to Him on the cross for man and his sins
They will rather that, He had to go to some Hell (i.e. Gehenna) to pay off the cost or price of sin.

Some will deny that what He did on the cross was not good enough for the atonement of sin

But Jesus says in Matthew 10:32-33:
32"Therefore everyone who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven.
33"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven".

Those are the evidences: the murder weapon, the crime scene evidences

The numbers of lives impacted by Him even until today when compared with the number of life He lived on Earth
shows He lived a quality rather than a quantity life.

He was 33 years old.


[size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

PastorAIO: ... Here we go again....

I believe many things. Here are a few of them.

I believe that the universe is infused and suffused with Intent.

I believe that knowing and harmonising with this Intent (singular or plural would be going into too much detail for now) is the key to Living a Good Life.

I believe that to call myself a christian will cause me to be identified with too many people that I have absolutely nothing in common with, so I avoid it.

I believe, that the Bible is not the basis of christianity, but in fact the bible is an artifact of the church which precedes it. I believe this is the cause of much of my misunderstanding with many so called christians.

I believe I ought to start a thread on Religion and what it means to me so that next time I get asked this age old question again I can just referred the questioner to the thread and save time.

I believe that no matter how much I know or whatever concepts I form about reality, the True will always confound my concepts and my beliefs. In other words I can never actually grasp the truth with my limited brain. Someone called this stance perspectivism and I see no reason to deny that.

I believe that I am bound by nature to always form ideas and concepts about God, the world, reality etc, and I cannot help it, however if I take my beliefs with an appropriate measure of salt ( maybe a pinch, maybe a teaspoon, maybe a whole bottle) then I reckon I'll be better off than those others who stamp their feet and whinge and whine when their beliefs are proved to be unfounded either by argument or by actually circumstance.

I belief in practice and experiment as ways of keeping up with the Truth. In other words I have a fair bit of contempt for armchair theology/philosophy. Or to put it another way, Reading the bible or any other religious book for that matter does nothing for you, and will only help you in vacuous debate with other airheads. But in order to grow spiritually one needs to take up the practice of an actual spiritual discipline. From the results of this practice you will know whether what you're following is worthwhile or not.

I believe that there are pros and cons to practicing religion within a cult.

I believe that most 'christians' are more devoted to their cult than they are to their actual religious practice.

I believe Messi shouldn't have been awarded the Player of the Tournament for this world cup.

I believe that anyone that doesn't appreciate me has poor tastes.

etc etc etc.

I believe you've been as straight as a die...

I believe if Neymar had played, Brazil wouldn't have got beaten 7-1 by Germany in the Tournament for this world cup

I believe that appreciating taste is relative though

DrummaBoy: [size=16pt]MY SUBMISSION ON F6: JDS (i.e. Jesus Died Spiritually)[/size]

I have no submission for JDS.

The ones I have heard, is upsetting enough.

I endorse everything BabaGnoni and trust man have written on it.

If there are no further submissions on F6, I request you gentlemen for us to move quickly to F7.

...I have so far managed only submitting the intro for F6
I will publish F6 proper (i.e. perspective), asap, so please bear with me or the seemingly hiatus.

NativeBoy: You and I know that a lot of the burnt offerings were required for atonement and consecration and the like.
Which have been perfected in Christ.

That said, the biblical principle is that the more you give, the more you receive.
So you don't have to bring animals to your church come Sunday,
but why not bless the church and your fellow saints by identifying what is needed and supply it.
Buy some candy and snacks for the kids. Buy or make a meal for the elders or the whole church. Some fried rice, egusi, etc.
There is a blessing associated with that.

DrummaBoy: ... perfected in Christ...

ehen, now we are getting each other.

Jesus has fulfilled the Law and perfected its requirement in us.

If there are principles to be learnt from the law, how can you not understand that the principle behind tithing was giving?

The principle behind the Jewish ordinance of tithing food cannot be tithing money now.

Abi!

^^^
Ah, so you too noticed that we've seemed to have gotten somewhere.

It is the same the biblical principle that negates tithing
Just as it sounds absurd bringing in animals to church come Sundays for burnt offering
so is tithing after what was done at Calvary (i.e. forget mentioning tithing, now, in the 21st century)
and to make it worse, tithing wasn't even done with money but we'll turn a blind eye to that aspect, for now.

Your comment "... the more you give, the more you receive... is a testament that tithing has outlived it's usefulness
and proves that free giving is supreme and superior

DrummaBoy: @BabaGnoni,

I actually have a response for you there: permit me to play the devil's advocate for a minute: Romans 12:2 - the Christians obedience is his burnt offering to God.

End of advocacy.

Good. If the Christian's obedience is a burnt offering to God, then we can conclude that with the coming of the New Covenant, also came certain fundamental changes to some practices.

What was burnt offerings before, is today's obedience.

What were sacrifices before is today's praise and worship.

What was were Jewish tithing, first fruiting and offerings before, is today's free will giving.

I trust that our friend should have gotten the point by now.

I too was playing Devil's advocate with our friend's quote
but hang on, you left out circumcision now

What was circumcision before, as in about cutting of flesh
is today's new creation, as in the cutting away of our sinful nature by Christ (i.e. Colossians 2:11 NLT)

NativeBoy: Yes circumcision was a big deal to God. It signified his covenant with Abraham and the children of Israel.
No, God didn't make it compulsory for the church but you are actually proving my point.
The tithe and circumcision predate the giving of the law.
Was Abraham under the law when he tithed? Or was he under duress?
No. He did it out if a free heart to honor God and because he knew that God would bless Him in turn.
The same thing for today's Christian: Tithing is not about whether there is or isn't a law.

Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of not paying tithes?
No, but there are blessings associated with the tithe.
The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.
Just like circumcision. Christians don't have to circumcise themselves. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Yet, there are tremendous health benefits to circumcision.
If you do it, you receive it. If you don't do it, you don't receive it.

OK, Abraham tithed and circumcised
He did it out if a free heart to honor God and because he knew that God would bless Him in turn
The same thing for today's Christian: Tithing (or circumcision) is not about whether there is or isn't a law
Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of not paying tithes?
No, but there are blessings associated with the tithe. The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.

OK but then, in the same vein as above,
Noah, Abraham and the Israelites did burnt offering (i.e. Gen. 8:20, Gen. 22:13, Exodus 10:25-26, Exodus 20:24, Exodus 24:5, Exodus 32:6)
They did it out of a free heart to honor God and because they knew that God would bless them in turn
The same thing for today's Christian: burnt offering is not about whether there is or isn't a law
Will a Christian be in danger of losing salvation because of no burnt offering?
No, but there are blessings associated with burnt offering. The Christian will simply not receive those blessings.

Just like circumcision or tithing, burnt offerings predated the giving of the law
Christians don't have to do burnt offerings. It has nothing to do with salvation.
Yet, there are tremendous health benefits to doing burnt offerings
If you do it, you receive it. If you don't do it, you don't receive it.

It seems to me then that:
it's now time for Christians to start bringing sheep, goats and bulls to the next church service & offer them as burnt offerings
so Christians can simply start to receive those burnt offering blessings
and not miss out on burnt offering's blessings similar to those associated with tithing and circumcision

DrummaBoy: Thank you for understanding my position. I also get your position. In fact I also believe in "live and let's live" attitude. While studying on tithes, I believe God opened my heart to understand Romans 4 one night. Since then I push the idea: "he that tithed to the Lord he does so... he that doesn't to God he does so", God has not rejected him either bc tithing is a small issue in God's kingdom.

This is actually the position I advocated on the advocated on the tract too. But...

I needed you to read my response to Gombs to comprehend why this tract must be made. In brief, tithing is actually threatening the gospel. Its the reason Paul contended the Circumcisions in his days.

If there anyone who advocates liberty in the use of finances it is anti tithers. if there any group that advocate compulsion, it is tithers. This is from my experience and its the overwhelming testimony of most people on this thread. And our plea with tithers and their pastors is to allow people to use their money for whatever they wish and stop these lies called compulsory monetary tithes.

^^^
https://s30.postimg.org/4x8j6ajb5/tithing_New.jpg