₦airaland Forum

livingchrist:

Jesus was not a spirit (disembodied one) but a Spirit dwelling in a human nature.

I don't like dwelling on people who don't accept truth in the Bible for how it is.
The Bible simply says that Jesus was resurrected with a SPIRIT BODY (1Cor 15:42-44, 1Timothy 3:16, 1Peter 3:18)
So I don't quite get what you mean by ‘disembodied’ in this context.
The Scriptures say that there are heavenly[spirit] BODIES and earthly[flesh] BODIES—1Cor 15:40
The BODY here just means the forms of existence. Some exist in the form of spirits, while others in form of flesh.

Every human has spirit and a human body.

Says what Scripture? See, we are not talking about your regular Nollywood movies here.
We're discussing the Bible and if we're doing that, we better speak in Biblical terms. I believe this your misunderstanding stems from Genesis 2:7.
Man is basically an earthly creature, made from the dust—there's no immortal spirit or soul inside him—since the man himself is a LIVING SOUL when the breath of LIFE is in his nostrils.

So mr dappa Jesus spirit was a life giving one.
Jesus can be called a life giving Spirit same way a human can be called flesh and blood, it does not mean that humans do not have a spirit same way Jesus is called a life giving Spirit does not mean he does not have a body

Presently, Jesus Christ has been ruling as King in God's Kingdom since 1914 as an immortal spirit being(1Cor 15:50, Revelation 11:15)
Soon, he's going to live up to that particular assignment of being a ‘LIFE-giving spirit’ when all those powerless in death will be resurrected to LIFE here on earth. (John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15, Revelation 20:13)

Ihedinobi3:
Can't say I understand what your talk about sitting on the fence is about, but my teachings come from the Bible. I am not a religious person. I'm a Christian.

Okay.

haddeylium:
Leave trinitarian outta this. I don't care about your stand
and this isn't about Jesus position as you said but his nature.

We agreed on Jesus being human in his Human existence.

So, what's nature in his prehuman existence in heaven...
Human or Spirit being?

Ha! You never see this people

See somebody that his opinions and teachings can't be traced back to any religious organization is here saying that he found light.
Ndị independent religionists

Janosky:

So for your mind spirits are humans because drawings depicts them in human form?

Na wa for you

Perhaps someone should explain to them the meaning of Anthropomorphism .

It baffles me that hopeless apostates keep up to date with the JW Organization. Because they know that JWs are second to none—the instruction and spiritual food at the meetings can't be gotten anywhere else. And they know that.

That particular one came to NL to post pictures in a Watchtower article that was considered last Sunday. When I saw that I concluded within myself that apostates are just hopeless ignoramuses.
Please, Blabbermouth, take the initiative to counsel and control that your partner, before he commits suicide one day because as it seems, he's always restless and perturbed whenever it comes to matters concerning JWs.

Ihedinobi3:
I'm pretty sure that JWs don't know what the Truth is. You refuse to admit what it is even when it kicks you in the face. At least, that has been my experience with you lot.

Please can your teachings be traced to any religious organization?
Or are you saying the things you're saying out of your own understanding?
There's no sitting on the fence here, fam.

Barristter07:
They will also be ressurected , (Act 24:15 )



If you read it well, this was a reference to First ressurection .

" Blessed and holy is he, whoever has part in the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be Priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him 1000 years." Revelation 20:-

The implication here is once a person shares this ressurection , second death can't do them any harm.


This simply means those who get affected by second death must have shared a different kind of ressurection. And the Fact that names of those who are ressurected are checked in the book of life before getting harmed by second death proved they are not just sinners, believers are among them


This is why I called you a Liar

Not all believers have the heavenly hope to be a Spirit.

This one na solid food oh
Where you go burst him head na when you tell am say that first resurrection don already dey happen since 1918

MaxInDHouse:
Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!
They will first of all go to heaven, sing hallelujah and later come back to live on earth!

Abi na field trip? Because me I'm not understanding.
Come and learn the truth from Jehovah's Witnesses—they said no—now look at how all of them are just confused.

I'm here to observe.
Lol. I thought some people(churchgoers) do normally say that everybody is going to heaven.
Now they've approached where the Bible talks about a “new earth” and they're dumbfounded. Okay o

AududuNine11:
I would say, that's just one of the scriptural injunctions your organization have selected to believe because it suits the narrative of your organization.

Half-truth is as good as poison.

Embrace the while truth of the Bible and not being selective to what you choose to narrate and believe to suit your narrative.

Whether revealed to you or not, it takes nothing away from what the revealed Word of God states and says.

There's absolutely no problem sir.
You've got your freewill to express, just like I got mine.
Do what you think is right while I'll do what's right to me according to the Bible.
Shouldn't be a cause for problems.

TheWalkingMind:
No one cares

I believe my comment was addressed to a Mr AududuNine11—who humbly acknowledged it?

If that's the case, please who are you again and of what relevance are you to the subject of the thread?

AkinwaleJJ:

So you're aware of this but you're just trying to misconstrue the whole thing by saying all this people who aren't following Jesus' footsteps are Christians shey.

Jehovah's Witnesses will never join in any protest because that's the foundation laid down by our leader Jesus Christ!

It's just so funny seeing the other comments on this thread.
When we say that Jehovah's Witnesses practice the true and purest form of Christianity, they'll keep arguing with us.

According to one of the commenters, I'll paraphrase: “It's your CIVIC responsibility and right to protest. Your GOSPEL responsibility is entirely different.”
In other words he's saying one can choose to do as he likes as long as such a person isn't in church.

AududuNine11:

You've said it all. There's nothing more for me to add.
Flesh and blood have not revealed this to you...

It wasn't revealed to me sir. As one of Jehovah's Witnesses, that's one of the basic truths we learnt years ago.

If you wish to know more about that heavenly Kingdom, please contact Jehovah's Witnesses in your local residence and visit JW.ORG

AududuNine11:

Should a believer join any PROTEST, DEMONSTRATE, CARRY PLACARDS?
Here's my view as a believer regarding PROTEST/DEMONSTRATION - peaceful or not peaceful, SARS related or not:
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
1 Corinthians 10:23 KJV

I'm one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

According to the Bible, the reason why the world is in distress is because it's being controlled by powerful & evil unseen forces headed by Satan the Devil and a host of other demons. (Ephesians 6:12, 1John 5:19, Revelation 12:9-12)

The Bible also reveals that by means of a heavenly Kingdom or government, all human governments and organizations will be brought to their knees and destroyed forever. (Compare Daniel 2:44 with Revelation 16:14-16, 17:12-14, 19:19-21)

Imagine you're on a sinking ship and the only option you have is a lifeboat, would you remain in the ship trying to repair damages or leave immediately?
That's the same in this case—trying to protest for changes or amends to be made is just a fruitless exercise since they're all going to be destroyed anyway.

That's why Jesus stressed the need to remain neutral concerning worldly affairs.
His true disciples were to be “no part of the world”—John 17:14,16
Because he himself knew it's all futile since a better Kingdom or government which is not of human source was coming. (John 18:36)

The best thing true Christians can do for themselves is offer prayers to God concerning the ruling governments so that they can continue their worship to God peacefully—and not for any changes to be made.(Acts 4:23-30, 1Timothy 2:1-2)

The real question is how many of those claiming to be Christians today follow this Biblical advice?
Those telling you it's okay to protest don't have any regard for the words of Jesus Christ himself—as they will only choose Scriptures that soothe their own agenda. (2Peter 3:16-17)

Blabbermouth:
Max knew I was pulling his legs, as he will never find what I asked him to go search for.

Like I said bro, you are not in God's plan, Just like every other denominations.
I repeat - your group is not/was not/ will never be God's plan.

If that's the thinking that helps you sleep well at night, by all means have at it.

haddeylium:
it's a sight to see Ex-Jw, churchgoers, freethinker, independent religionist leaving out their conflicting doctrines and making compromise to come together against Jw.
That's the effect of having the same line of thought.

Why am I not surprised, even tho those 450 Baal worshippee worship different gods , they come together to fight Elijah cos' he told them. He's the only one "worshipping the true God".
The Pharisee and the Sadducees have conflicting doctrines but they reach agreement when it comes to Jesus because he told them the same thing

That's same thing Jehovah's witnesses is telling you today. There's just one truth and it's with this God's people
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

In summary, Whoever is not on the side of Jehovah and Jesus IS AGAINST the truth. Matthew 12:30, John 18:37

Saw one of Blabbermouth's comments, I'll paraphrase: ‘I'll think of joining JWs if so so and so happens’

I wonder where he got the idea that Jehovah's Witnesses are begging him or whether we're looking for members who won't subscribe to Bible standards.
Despite the fact that Jehovah's promise for salvation and everlasting life is open to all(1Timothy 2:4, Revelation 22:17), Jehovah takes note of each individual and if one has endearing qualities, He draws such ones to the truth.(John 6:44, 1Corinthians 3:6)

So he should know that it's not just for the random Tom and Harry since God's standards are very high. We mean serious business when we preach looking for Jehovah's lost sheep.(Matthew 10:6)

MaxInDHouse:
Eyes you have but you're not seeing!

Ears you've got but you're deaf!

If the Jesus could say "For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son so that anyone exercising faith in him might be destroyed but have everlasting life" John 3:16

Any careful and diligent reader will pause, and ask

"Are all these religionsists claiming Christians truly practicing what Jesus taught?"
Which of all these groups having contradicting teachings and conflicting doctrines is practicing exactly what Jesus taught?"

Because if all of them are practicing Christianity then Jesus' teachings is not distinct as in well specified. Yet he himself said "Many will say to me (on the day of judgment) we did many things in your name" then i will say to them "i never knew you, depart from me you workers of iniquity" Matthew 7:21-23

Definitely there must be a way to IDENTIFY the group practicing what Jesus taught back then, no matter how Satan tries to complicate issues! 2Corinthians 4:4

Very sound reply.

PenHub:

1. Manchester United[b] - Despite that the red devils waited till late to wrap up transfers, additions were made.

Confirmed: Donny Van de Beek (Ajax - £45m), Alex Telles (Porto - £14m), Edison Cavani(Free) Amad Diallo(£41m - to join January)

So nothing come out for the whole Sancho palava?
Wawu

Barristter07:

Let this scripture nail you


" I tell you," Jesus added, "John is greater than anyone who has ever lived. But the one who is least in the Kingdom of God is greater than John." Luke 7:28 .

John won't be in God's kingdom ? Or these refer to heavenly life ??


Emusan , you need Bible study

While that is true—due to his spiritual thirst, there's no need arguing with someone who Jehovah God hasn't drawn to the truth.(John 6:44)
It's obvious he doesn't have the right heart condition for now though—but in the mean time, a haughty person would have no regard for the truth unless such one humbles himself.

shadeyinka:
Thanks for your comprehensive answers even though you seem to lump the answers to the three questions together.

You seem to be treating the Life Force as if it is LIVING and is not just a Life Force BUT Life itself. Why?
If a totally New body is fashioned for the dead person, he can only remain the same person if the Life Force is the REAL person and the bodies just like clothing. That is, a person Life Force can put on a Physical body or a Spiritual Body such that the person's life force represent his real identity.
What do you think?

Secondly, you insinuate that the Life Force of a person has been tested in all ramifications and thus will remember and sympathize with humans. Doesn't this make the Life force conscious and living (alive) as different from being just a Life giving FORCE?

Using the analogy of the electric power in a TV: the electricity is impasional. All it does is to energize the TV to work according to its design (memory, logic, display, sound, buttons etc) are all functions of the TV not the electricity. The electricity carries no information nor logic nor function except to supply energy required for the box to function. Electricity doesn't care whether it is powering a TV or a Laptop or a Radio. It is impasional!
Shouldn't that be the proper and true state of the Life Force?

Although, I still wish that you answer each question individually.
1. Since they are BODILESS, what part of their former existence resurrected?
2. Since they are BODILESS, how do they remember their former existence and identity (their brains have rot away at death)?
3. If indeed the 144,000 could exist without their bodies, does that not invalidate your arguments that a human being cannot be conscious without his body? (Please, don't say that it's a special case of Resurrection)

Thank you

Lol. When you first explain how electricity became a person then we can see where to go somewhere from there.
If you don't know, humble yourself and learn.
Calm down and go through my post carefully, not in a rushed manner as you just did.
I'm not going to repeat myself.

Janosky:

Question for You
1 Cor15:44 Who possess spiritual bodies?

The problem is that, they think the word ‘BODY’ applies to only human beings.
When in fact Jehovah, Jesus and the rest of the angels all have spirit BODIES. (John 4:24, 1Corinthians 15:40)

shadeyinka:

Please, permit me to ask a question from you JWs in the house. I do not intend to argue with you but to get your explanation on this particular question.

Okay.

You folks believe that a man cannot be conscious without his body (as the man has no brain, no limbs thus no feelings). This argument is ALWAYS presented as a prove that a man has no soul/spirit that exists after his death.

This is just one of the rudimentary teachings.
Even when JWs time and time again, explain carefully you refused to get it. It is because y'all don't get this basic teaching—that most of you don't grasp that humans and spirit creatures are totally different.

A man, is an earthly creature made from the dust of the ground. (Genesis 2:7)
It is only when the impersonal breath of life(spirit) is in that fleshly body made from dust—that the man is said to be a living soul or living being.
When the human being dies, this spirit/breath goes out(Psalm 146:4) and the body(man) returns to the dust of the ground(Genesis 3:19, Ecclesiastes 12:7)
Therefore the person can no longer have thoughts and feelings—Ecclesiastes 9:5-6 since the breath of life that's activating the body has been removed.

What makes your Television, a television
Isn't it only when electricity plays its role and then displays videos on your screen?
That's exactly the same with human beings. A man(created from dust) cannot be a living being/soul without the breath of life(spirit/lifeforce)

Now, the Question:
For the 144,000 who will be in Heaven after their resurrection.
1. Since they are BODILESS, what part of their former existence resurrected?
2. Since they are BODILESS, how do they remember their former existence and identity (their brains have rot away at death)?
3. If indeed the 144,000 could exist without their bodies, does that not invalidate your arguments that a human being cannot be conscious without his body? (Please, don't say that it's a special case of Resurrection)

We've gone through this countless times, shade\yinka.
Paul was inspired to write that there are heavenly BODIES and that there are earthly BODIES—1Corinthians 15:40
Jehovah God is a Spirit. (John 4:24, 2Corinthians 3:17). Jesus Christ(Michael the archangel) and the rest of the angels(seraphs, cherubs etc) are all spirit creatures like their heavenly Father.(Psalm 104:4)
The BODY they possess is different from the earthly bodies.
The 144,000 anointed Christians are bought from amongst mankind and sealed(Revelation 14:1,4)
When their physical/natural/weak/fleshly body dies, their lifeforce is entrusted into God's hands(Ecclesiates 12:7) just as Jesus entrusted his into God's hands(Luke 23:46)
The BODIES they possess after the first resurrection is an indestructible, incorruptible, immortal spiritual BODY(1Corinthians 15:42-44,53-54), then their life-force is restored so that they can have their former memories because that's the essence of them going to heaven in the first place. They have been tested in all respects so they know what humans go through and they can sympathize with their weaknesses. (Hebrews 4:15)
Jehovah is such a loving God that he made that wonderful provision because if He entrusted the ruling and judging matters into the hands of the angels who have existed for aeons, they wouldn't show the needed sympathy for humans since they don't know what's it like being one.
That's the real reason why a select few will be going to heaven to rule over the earth as kings, priests and judges alongside Jesus Christ who also knows what it's like being human! (Matthew 19:28, Romans 8:16-17, 1Corinthians 6:2, 2Timothy 2:12, Revelation 1:6, 5:9-10, 7:4-8, 14:1,4, 20:4,6)

Like I said: I just want to know your response as I do not intend to prove or disprove anything you say.

Okay.

cc: Maxindhouse, Janosky, AkinwaleJJ, shadeyinka, DappaD, MuttleyLaff, Ken4Christ, Emusan, KNOWMORE56, Dtruthspeaker

livingchrist:
Jesus had flesh and bones when he resurrected, but it was a spiritual body. There is nothing like Spirit body, it does not exist in the bible.

Wrong.

Ihedinobi:


Right. First, I thank you for the compliment, but I must warn you that you wouldn't be the first to revise that opinion of me in the course of the discussion. I do try to be reasonable and courteous in conversation, but I do have my limits, and also I really can't help how people choose to perceive and interpret my behavior in conversation.
Second, I should warn you that I am not a stranger to JW teachings. I grew up surrounded by JW publications including Watchtower and Awake magazines probably worth years of issue, the JW books for bible study, My Book of Bible Stories, the work on Revelation, etc. We still have a copy of the JW version of the Bible in my parents' house too. I didn't just have these things around me either. I read them. So I know quite a bit about JW theology. Sometimes though, like with your comment about Job not being in Heaven, I do run into comments that make me curious about a given JW's appreciation of the teachings that they believe, so I ask questions to see what I might learn.
Finally, I should warn you that it is likely that the best that we can get out of this conversation is a mutual appreciation of each other's beliefs rather than any conversion. This is essentially to ask you to be reasonable in your treatment of this conversation. You shouldn't get frustrated if you find me unyielding in my convictions. I, for my own part, already take for granted that you will not accept my position as true, so I am speaking to you only to understand what you personally (rather than collectively as part of a group) believe and also to explain my own beliefs to you. I will not take offense if you refuse to agree with me. I don't mind that. So, I am hoping for a decent, mutually respectful discussion, even if not any kind of agreement in our beliefs.
Having said all that, these are the passages that you shared:
30 So Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: “For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.”
(NKJV) Genesis 32:30
24 Then Jacob was left alone; and a Man wrestled with him until the breaking of day.
(NKJV) Genesis 32:24
I'm afraid I don't see anything about an angel here. But it is certainly true that the word "angel" actually means "messenger," so that even the "man" in verse 24 is really a messenger of the Lord, if not an angel in the technical sense. My concern though is that there is nothing actually saying that the person here is an angel in that technical sense. It is certainly true too that Jacob might have been wrong about his ideas of the person that he wrestled with, but I wonder if anything in the Bible gives us any reason to believe that the actions of that person (namely, wrestling with a human being, blessing the human being, and changing the human being's name, all done unilaterally) are in any sense normal to angels as we see in the Bible.
You might mention the "Angel of the Lord" that is frequently in view in the Old Testament, but this argument above would mean that that "Angel" is at least not like the other angels in the Bible.
These are the next couple of verses that you shared:
11 So the Lord spoke to Moses face to face, as a man speaks to his friend. And he would return to the camp, but his servant Joshua the son of Nun, a young man, did not depart from the tabernacle.
(NKJV) Exodus 33:11
16 Then it came to pass on the third day, in the morning, that there were thunderings and lightnings, and a thick cloud on the mountain; and the sound of the trumpet was very loud, so that all the people who were in the camp trembled.
(NKJV) Exodus 19:16
I think you had a different verse in mind in the second one, but I'm not sure which one you meant. Do you want to check and confirm?
In the meantime, there is this other passage that I think that you should also take into consideration:
5 Then the Lord came down in the pillar of cloud and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam. And they both went forward. 6 Then He said,
“Hear now My words:
If there is a prophet among you,
I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision;
I speak to him in a dream.
7 Not so with My servant Moses;
He is faithful in all My house.
8 I speak with him face to face,
Even plainly, and not in dark sayings;
And he sees the form of the Lord.
Why then were you not afraid
To speak against My servant Moses?”
(NKJV) Numbers 12:5-8
The above seems unequivocal in its claim that Moses did indeed speak face to face with God Himself. I'm not sure why I should believe that he didn't.
I don't doubt, of course, that both Moses and the people of Israel saw powerful displays of God's divine power. There is no doubt of that, just as Exodus 19:16 shows, but I find it hard to see how a display of power can in any way be interpreted as God Himself. I have never mistaken Exodus 19:16 to suggest that what they saw was God. It was one thing to see how dreadful and powerful the Presence of God Himself is and quite another to see God Himself, in my thinking. Consider the following passage, for example:
9 Then Moses went up, also Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel, 10 and they saw the God of Israel. And there was under His feet as it were a paved work of sapphire stone, and it was like the very heavens in its clarity. 11 But on the nobles of the children of Israel He did not lay His hand. So they saw God, and they ate and drank.
(NKJV) Exodus 24:9-11
The detail in this passage leaves it really hard to believe that anything here is about seeing a display of power. And the passage seems unequivocal too that the people mentioned saw God, not an angel.
Regarding the Job passage, I realize that you and I may have to agree to disagree. The JW Bible actually puts Job 19:26 like this:
And after my skin, [which] they have skinned off, --this! Yet reduced in my flesh I shall behold God,
Job 19:26 NWT
Other mainstream translations put it like this:
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
(NKJV) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NKJV footnotes: "And after my skin is struck off, this [I know], that in my flesh I shall see God"
26 “Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God;
(NASB) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NASB footnotes: "And after my skin which they have cut off, Yet from my flesh I shall see God"
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body,
yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(KJV) Job 19:26
26 And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
(NIV) Job 19:26
Alternative reading from NIV footnotes: "And after I awake, though this body has been destroyed, then apart from my flesh I will see God"
Of course, no translation is perfect, and sometimes even all the mainstream translations are wrong, but I don't really see any reason to believe that these ones are all wrong in this case. So, I can't accept the JW translation, especially given the JW position on resurrection that seems to me to explain why otherwise clear Scriptures become difficult to make sense of in the NWT.
So, when you use Job 38:1 to explain 19:26, I'm afraid I don't buy it. It doesn't seem to fit anything in the rest of the Bible at all.
Regarding "Jesus also said that apart from him, no man had ever ascended into heaven before. (John 3:13)"
I certainly agree with you that the way into Heaven was only opened by the Lord after His death and resurrection. I'm not sure that that has anything to do with Job 19:26 though. It seems obvious to me that that verse is about the Resurrection, not about going to Heaven. Certainly, Job is in Heaven, if Ephesians 4:8 is anything to go by. But Job is obviously not "in [his] flesh" since he has not yet been resurrected in a body. According to 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 quoted below, the Resurrection is not going to happen until the Return of the Lord Jesus. After that time, the next Resurrection will be at the end of the Millennium, when those who came to believe in Jesus Christ after His Second Advent and until the end of His Thousand-Year reign will be raised from the dead in their own new bodies.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
(NKJV) 1 Corinthians 15:22-24
So, it is only at the return of Jesus Christ to rule over the world that I would expect Job 19:26 to be fulfilled, not when he went to Heaven.
About the 120 disciples, I'm curious how you read that they were anointed to be co-rulers with Christ at the Pentecost. I'm not sure how that computes at all, especially considering
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
(NKJV) Romans 8:9
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
(NKJV) Ephesians 1:13-14
30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
(NKJV) Ephesians 4:30
5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
(NKJV) 2 Corinthians 5:5
I'm not sure what the difference is between the pouring out of the Spirit in Acts 2 and these other passages is that leads to any idea that only these people and a select few besides are anointed to be co-rulers with Jesus Christ. I note that I also see the following in the Bible:
26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
27 ‘He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter’s vessels’—
as I also have received from My Father
(NKJV) Revelation 2:26-27
21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
(NKJV) Revelation 3:21
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
(NKJV) 1 John 5:4-5
I agree that by comparison, it is only the few who are saved, just as the Lord Jesus said in Matthew 7:14
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
(NKJV) Matthew 7:14
But I don't think that the few meant were 144 000, especially given that the only place where this number is quoted in the Bible ascribes it to actual Israelites, and not just Isrealites, but Jewish men specifically. We also have Hebrews 11 that seems to me to roundly denounce any idea that Old Testament believers don't count with the Lord. In fact, Abraham is called the father of faith, and he doesn't seem to me to have been accommodated in your catalogue of these co-rulers, or am I mistaken here?
Regarding the matter of going to Heaven, I have some agreement with you and considerable disagreement with you. I totally agree that the final destiny of man is not to live in Heaven forever with God. The earth was always God's Home. The Third Heaven seems to me to be a temporary abode, a divine battle headquarters, in fact. So, it is not part of my theology that any of us will stay there forever or even that God Himself will. In Revelation 21, we have it clearly given to us that God returns to the Earth to live among His Children who will finally see His Face and be with Him forever.
I also agree that the Earth of today was given to the children of men as the passage you shared says, even if Adam ceded his authority to Satan eventually. Much of what happens on earth, at any rate, seems to me to be shaped by human choices rather than particularly by angelic ones. I do believe that angelic influence over human beings is not at all to be discounted (Ephesians 2:2, for example), but humans are largely the direct players on earth.
I don't agree though that not everybody goes to Heaven, if by "everybody" you mean everyone who believes in Jesus Christ. I'll grant that those who are alive when the Lord Jesus returns are likely to not have to spend any significant time in Heaven when they are resurrected, since all those that are in Heaven will be returning with the Lord to take back control of the earth from Satan and his fellow rebel angels anyway, but I don't really see that even they will be barred from Heaven any more than the angels are today. Heaven is simply a temporary tent for God and His loyal children, both elect angels and elect humans, while the war on earth is still being prosecuted to reclaim the Universe for God from the rebel Satan. When the war is over, there will be no further need for this sequestering, since the Universe will have been cleansed of all rebellion and opposition to God's Rule. So, God and all His Children will return to the new Earth to live together forever.
​1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea. 2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away.”
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new.” And He said to me, “Write, for these words are true and faithful.”
(NKJV) Revelation 21:1-5
As for going to Heaven, we have the following passages:
​1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.
(NKJV) 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
23 For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.
(NKJV) Philippians 1:23
So, it seems that this is a thing that all Christians have to look forward to if they were to die before the Lord Jesus returns. You can also refer to Ephesians 4:8 quoted earlier to see that Old Testament believers also went to Heaven.
About the eternity of the Earth, the Bible does teach that there will always be a heaven and an earth, and I believe that too, but I think that you may be missing the detail that this present creation is said by the Bible to be destined for destruction by fire after which it will be created anew but void of all unrighteousness. So, while I agree with you to some extent, I hold a slightly different position than you do:
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13 NKJV

Well, this is what I think of your positions and what my own positions are. I am happy to discuss them a bit more with you if you like, but it's fine if you don't want to engage any further. As I said, it is unlikely that I will be camping out at the JW website or inviting any JW into my home for any further clarification of your position. I think that I know it well enough, but if you think I don't, I'm happy to be corrected by you. If you are unwilling to clear up any misconceptions that I have of your positions, then I suppose I will have to carry them with me going forward.
Cheers.

No, I do not wish to continue this discussion as it will not yield any positive results. Time is of the essence.

N/B: There are a lot of errors in your post—but I do not blame you though because it's just due to the gaps in your knowledge.

nencounter10:

The earth will not last forever.It will be changed by being destroyed and a new one created.

Contrary to what the Bible teaches. The earth is going for remain forever. (Psalm 78:69, 104:5, Ecclesiastes 1:4)

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Context isn't to be ignored. Peter drew an analogy with the Flood in Noah's day.
He said that the world(human society) of that time suffered destruction by water. (2Peter 3:5-6)
In verse 7, Peter says But by the same word i.e. in like manner, the heavens(governments) and earth(wicked human society) that exist presently are reserved for fire.
Fire being a symbol of destruction symbolizes total annihilation of the ungodly people.

3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Peter and John were speaking in symbolic terms. The “heavens” represents the ruling class, a government presiding over a set of people.
The “earth” symbolizes the human society.

To further buttress this point, at Ephesians 6:11-12, Paul mentioned that Satan and the demonic forces were exercising their authority from “heavenly places” That is, Satan has in his power, the governments of the world that rule over this present “earth” or human society. It's an established Biblical fact that the whole world presently is being controlled by Satan and his demons.(John 12:31, 1John 5:19, Revelation 12:9)

Also, Genesis 11:1 says that “all the earth[the human society] continued to be of one language”.
You can't mistake Genesis 11:1 to mean that the literal ground/literal earth spoke a language. Rather from context, it clearly shows that “earth” is referring to a set of people.

If you wish to know what the “new heavens and new earth” stand for, please use this link: https://www.jw.org/en/library/magazines/w20060515/Gods-Purpose-for-the-Earth-Soon-to-Be-Fulfilled/
It's a relatively short read.

MODIFIED:
I agree with Jehova witnesses that we will live forever on Earth, only that it is not this present one ,which will be destroyed, but a new one which will be created by God.

It is commendable that you accept the view of Jehovah's Witnesses according the Bible.
Humans are indeed meant to live forever on earth, but according to the Bible, there are certain criteria one must pass first.
To have everlasting life on earth, one MUST take in knowledge about Jehovah God and Jesus Christ and align himself with Bible standards.(John 17:3)
There is no provision for observers and spectators.

Eazie351:

what if the 144000 are just the rulers and not the entire population of the new earth

That's exactly what they are.
They are to be corulers alongside Jesus Christ in heaven.(Romans 8:17, Revelation 1:6)
They have been bought/chosen from amongst mankind to be a spiritual Israel(Revelation 7:4-8, 14:1,3)
So as you can see, the number going to heaven are a finite number.
And notice that they are to rule over the earth(Revelation 5:9-10)
That is, a new & refined human society.

Those who are going to inherit the earth will be an immeasurable number, i.e a great crowd of people gathered from all the nations of the earth(Revelation 7:9-17)
The Bible makes it clear that it is the meek(mild-tempered) ones doing the will of God who will inherit the earth and live forever upon it.(Psalm 37:11,29; Proverbs 2:21). The Bible also says that God formed the earth to be inhabited by humans, he didn't create it just for nothing.(Isaiah 45:18) While Jesus was on earth, the decision for meek humans to inhabit the earth did not change.(Matthew 5:5)

So now, God is calling on all sorts of people on the earth to seek Him, to seek the truth, to seek meekness and righteousness because it is His will that all sorts of men come to an accurate knowledge of the truth and be saved.(Zephaniah 2:2-3, 1Timothy 2:4)

If you want to know more, call on any of Jehovah's Witnesses in your area to explain more to you and try to visit JW.ORG

Depsui:
Jesus Christ resurrected in flesh. But it was a glorified body. That's why you see it in the bible that Jesus Christ was the first one to resurrect from the dead. But we know that lazarus and some other people were raised from the dead.

What differentiates the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the others was that He resurrected with a glorified body.

The glorified body is like a combination of flesh and Spirit. On the last day, every Christian that makes heaven will also take on this glorified body. It is with this glorified body that we will be able to live forever.

The Bible doesn't support a single word you said up there. But thanks for airing your own personal opinion, even though I never sought for it and that which is in direct contrast to what the Bible teaches.

Ihedinobi3:


One might say the same about you, you know.
What exactly is the problem with saying that Job will go to Heaven? Do you have a different understanding of that verse?

I'll give this reply to you because you seem reasonable.
Job didn't and isn't going to see God literally. It's just like it was written that Jacob and Moses saw God “face to face” (Genesis 32:30, Exodus 33:11) but in reality, it was an angel of the true God who they saw and manifestations of divine power. (Genesis 32:24, Exodus 19:16)
The same way too, Job isn't saying he will see God literally, rather he saw the expression of God's power when He answered him(Job) out of the windstorm(Job 38:1)

Jesus also said that apart from him, no man had ever ascended into heaven before. (John 3:13)
The way to heaven was opened to faithful ones after Jesus' death, when God's holy spirit came upon 120 disciples first, and anointed them as joint heirs/rulers with Christ.(Acts 2:1-10)

Really, when you think about it, the teaching that everybody will go to heaven is a really absurd one, because when God created the earth, he made it man's home(Genesis 2:15)
He gave the earth to humans to tend for it and inhabit it(Psalm 115:16)
He never said the earth was a “testing ground” as false religionists would have it.
His decision for humans to occupy the earth has not changed.(Isaiah 45:18) because the earth will remain forever, never to be destroyed(Psalm 78:69, Ecclesiastes 1:4)


It's only a select few, starting with those 120 Christians in the first century, the apostles Peter, John, Paul, Timothy and many others that will go to heaven as joint heirs/rulers with Jesus Christ(Romans 8:17, 2Timothy 2:12)
Even some in our day are anointed as corulers of Jesus but they aren't the people you think them to be.
This number going to heaven is limited to a “little flock” numbering a total of 144,000. They are bought from among mankind. (Please read Luke 12:32, Revelation 7:4-8, 14:1-4)
These ones are to serve as kings and priests to God in heaven(Revelation 1:6), judge the world(1Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 20:4) and will rule over the earth . (Revelation 5:9-10)

So you see, most people who shout and shout that they're going to heaven don't know squat about what they're going to do there from the Bible(if they're ever to go there, which is impossible)

I know all of these might be too much, but you can continue from here with any of Jehovah's Witnesses in your area or visit JW.ORG for more info.

MaxInDHouse:
Excellent!

So go out there, preach and teach what you know to make disciples for your God!

People who don't know squat about the Bible think it necessary to lecture someone else. Blind guides.

Imagine coming to tell me Job will go to heaven, lol.

I'm ever grateful to Jehovah and his organization for rescuing me from confusing religious falsehoods. (John 8:32)

MaxInDHouse:

No room for fruitless arguments, whoever loves what he is reading should contact local JWs for further enlightenment but whoever is not interested should WAKA PASS

Simple.
Reasonable time that can be invested into RVs shouldn't go to satisfying the urge of people Jehovah hasn't drawn to the truth. (John 6:44)

The Bible’s answer

The Bible says that Jesus “was put to death in the flesh but made alive [resurrected] in the spirit.”​—1 Peter 3:​18; Acts 13:34; 1 Corinthians 15:45; 2 Corinthians 5:​16.

Jesus’ own words showed that he would not be resurrected with his flesh-and-blood body. He said that he would give his “flesh in behalf of the life of the world,” as a ransom for mankind. (John 6:​51; Matthew 20:28) If he had taken back his flesh when he was resurrected, he would have canceled that ransom sacrifice. This could not have happened, though, for the Bible says that he sacrificed his flesh and blood “once for all time.”—Hebrews 9:​11, 12.

If Jesus was raised up with a spirit body, how could his disciples see him?

• Spirit creatures can take on human form. For example, angels who did this in the past even ate and drank with humans. (Genesis 18:​1-8; 19:​1-3) However, they still were spirit creatures and could leave the physical realm.​—Judges 13:15-​21.

• After his resurrection, Jesus also assumed human form temporarily, just as angels had previously done. As a spirit creature, though, he was able to appear and disappear suddenly. (Luke 24:31; John 20:19, 26) The fleshly bodies that he materialized were not identical from one appearance to the next. Thus, even Jesus’ close friends recognized him only by what he said or did.​—Luke 24:30, 31, 35; John 20:14-​16; 21:​6, 7.

• When Jesus appeared to the apostle Thomas, he took on a body with wound marks. He did this to bolster Thomas’ faith, since Thomas doubted that Jesus had been raised up.​—John 20:24-​29.


Source : https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/jesus-body/
Visit JW.ORG

Blabbermouth:


In your post, you said it is likely the angel in Rev 20:1 is Christ Jesus.
In my response to you, I exposed how another person/being can do something in the name of a being and such merit or credit is given to the bearer of the name, not the literal doer.
Thus, it is not sufficient to say an angel is Christ because He did something in the name of Christ.

Wrt the other comparisons you made, it was made clear from context that it was the angel of Jehovah who spoke to humans or carried other assignments.

Since Jesus isn't the true God Jehovah, but rather His subordinate(John 14:28)—then the long awaited fulfillment of the Genesis 3:15 prophecy must be carried out completely by Jesus Christ as he will not step aside for a lower angel to bind Satan into an abyss since it's clear that Jesus possesses that much authority to hold the keys of death and Hades(Rev 1:18) and is the only person recognized by the demons who will bind them in an abyss(Luke 8:30-31)
And also there's nothing from context that suggests that another angel was assigned that task.

I know it may be much to grasp but maybe take it one at a time. But if you still do not agree, then there is no problem and I've done the best I can to help.