₦airaland Forum

johnw74:
I do hate liars, false prophets, Bible corrupters, God blasphemers, calling Him false names, etc. I take after God in hating evil:

Rev_2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

God hated the deeds of the nicolatians.
God also hates the deeds of those who call themselves jehovahs witnesses,
the deeds of false prophecy,
calling God "a god"
calling God and the Word "a two headed god"
lying
changing what the Bible says to suit there satanic doctrines, and on and on and on



2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

We know fake jw are false prophets and false teachers who teach damnable heresies and deny the Lord that bought them saying it was "a god" or "an angel" that bought them, they deny the Lord God.
2Peter 2:1 is another Bible verse talking off the evil, phony jw's. as well as others ,describing then to a T
their destruction will be swift:

Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

God was manifest in the flesh
evil jw say "a god" was manifest in the flesh

1 ti 3: 16
New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh....

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body...

English Standard Version
Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of godliness: He was manifested in the flesh....

Berean Study Bible
By common confession, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in the flesh....

Berean Literal Bible
And confessedly, great is the mystery of godliness: Who was revealed in the flesh....

New American Standard Bible
By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh...

Holman Christian Standard Bible
And most certainly, the mystery of godliness is great: He was manifested in the flesh.....

International Standard Version
By common confession, the secret of our godly worship is great: In flesh was he revealed to sight.....

NET Bible
And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation: He was revealed in the flesh....

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And this Mystery of Righteousness is truly great, which was revealed in the flesh....

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The mystery that gives us our reverence for God is acknowledged to be great: He appeared in his human nature.....

New American Standard 1977
And by common confession great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh.....

American Standard Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh......

Douay-Rheims Bible
And evidently great is the mystery of godliness, which was manifested in the flesh....

English Revised Version
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness; He who was manifested in the flesh.....

Weymouth New Testament
And, beyond controversy, great is the mystery of our religion-- that Christ appeared in human form.... And many more!

"Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. (NIV)
1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.
2. In regard to the above verse, Bruce Metzger writes:
[“He who”] is supported by the earliest and best uncials…no uncial (in the first hand) earlier than the eighth or ninth century supports theos ; all ancient versions presuppose hos or ho [“he who” or “he”]; and no patristic writer prior to the last third of the fourth century testifies to the reading theos. The reading theos arose either (a) accidentally, or (b) deliberately, either to supply a substantive for the following six verbs [the six verbs that follow in the verse], or, with less probability, to provide greater dogmatic precision [ i.e. , to produce a verse that more clearly supports the Trinitarian position].” [1]
3. When properly translated, 1 Timothy 3:16 actually argues against the Trinity. “By common confession great is the mystery of godliness: He who was revealed in the flesh, Was vindicated in the Spirit, Beheld by angels, Proclaimed among the nations, Believed on in the world, Taken up in glory” ( NASB ). This section of Scripture beautifully portrays an overview of Christ’s life and accomplishments. It all fits with what we know of the man , Jesus Christ. If Jesus were God, this section of Scripture would have been the perfect place to say so. We should expect to see some phrases like, “God incarnate,” “God and Man united,” “very God and very man,” etc . But nothing like that occurs. Instead, the section testifies to what non-Trinitarians believe—that Christ was a man, begotten by the Father, and that he was taken up into glory.


> Bibliography > Codex Alexandrinus > 1 Timothy 3:16
1 Timothy 3:16 in Codex Alexandrinus
Reproduced below is the text of 1 Timothy 3:16–4:3 from Codex A, as presented in the photographic facsimile volume published by the British Museum in 1879. Of particular interest here is the reading in 3:16, where it may be seen that the manuscript reads ΘC " God was manifested in the flesh," employing the usual abbreviation ΘC for ΘEOC, with a stroke over the letters to indicate an abbreviation. However, textual critics believe that the ink in the center of the Θ and the stroke above were added by a corrector in modern times. Reasons for this belief are the color of the ink, and the fact that a "dot" has been placed in the Θ instead of a line. Tregelles writes, "The ink in which this has been done in A is sufficiently modern and black to declare its recent application" ( An Account of the Printed Text of the Greek New Testament, London, 1854). Without these marks, the manuscript originally read ΟC " He who was manifested in the flesh." In the photograph below the ΘC in 3:16 is circled. Further down, in verse 4:3, there is another
ΘC circled for comparison. Click on the circled areas for a larger view.

www.bible-researcher.com/alexandrinus4.html

johnw74, you have not only been lying, you have how joined the league of those who deliberately changed to word of God to achieve their own selfish ends. scholars, science has exposed you!

analice107:
Jessicha, how did Cain got to know that his sin wasn't hidden? God revealed that to him, how? Because the blood of Abel cried for Vengeance, but from where? Could it be from here?
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke open the fifth seal, I saw at the foot of the altar the souls of those whose lives had been sacrificed for [adhering to] the of God and for the testimony they had borne.

And, does blood have a voice? Could it also mean that because the life force which is the spirit of every man is in the blood? Lev. 1:14.

replay! God was already talking to cain about sin before died na!

so literally, souls are under the alter and not in paradise, or is paradise at the foot of the alter?

Lev 1: 14?

Scholar8200:
As much revealed in Scripture is that He said to the thief on the Cross,''this day you shall be with me in paradise''. Moreover, Peter revealed that He also went to the spirits in prison (the only place that implies is the same place where the devil will be imprisoned for 1k years).

wow, so jesus and the thief went to paradise the same day he died?
The bible says jesus went to hell, therefore paradise is in hell. what happens to paradise when hell is being thrown into the the lake of fire, will paradise experience death too.

now you say peter implied jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison.
Peter said prison ,not hell. and from peters statement he did so after his resurrected, not while he was in hell, after all authority had Been given to him.
spirit of humans don't go to hell or do they? If they do not, Jesus would not have gone to any spirit of man in hell!

by the way, why did Jesus preach to the spirit, to give them a chance of Repentance?

@ scholar8200, going up and down about what happens to man when he dies is not necessary, this view that a part of man survives death is wrong, the scriptures never taught us so.

The scriptures had told us how man was made, the process and the components in which man was created. none of this includes giving man a soul. The scriptures had irrevocably said " MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL".

The God that created adam also told adam what will happen to him at death, God said :
King James Version
Ge 3:17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

look at the underlined above, are you saying that God lied and Adam is still eating from the ground in hell? when the days of Adams life ended, surely he stopped eating right? therefore adam did not continue his life elsewhere!
King James Version
Ge 3:19In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

look at the verse above, did God say " your body returns to the ground" ? no!, did God say part of you return to the ground" ? no!. God say "you", the person , returns to the ground, cus you where taken from the ground(read gen 2:7).
what did God say we are , he said we are dust!

when God made man, he formed the dust into flesh, before giving it life, this status of man was made known by God in the scripture below,(I'll quote more than one teanslation)

[color=red]New International Version
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years."

New Living Translation
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be....
are you saying that God is lying here when he said that you are mortal? that in reality you are immortal, but just living in a mortal body?, God is referring to the real you or me here, he was not talking about a part of you. humans are mortals with a lifespan. They are living souls that stop living when they die.

now let's go further to what happens to that living soul when it dies.
The scriptures tells us these:
King James Version
Ps 104:29Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

King James Version
Ec 3:20All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.

King James Version
Job 10:9Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again?

When man dies, his spirit leaves him, he( the man, the person) turns to dust!
The scriptures are clear on where man returns to when he dies. All men, you and me, return to the same place adam returned to!

what happens to man at death:
King James Version
Ps 146:4His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
did you read what the psalmist said " in that very day, his thoughts perish" . does this not contradict the view that the rich man had thoughts of his brothers still alive when he had died?
If you believe that the rich man literally had thoughts, then you are saying the bible is contradicting itself? is that so .
King James Version
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
can you see what the scripture says here, when you are dead, YOU KNOW NOTHING!, but you want them to know they are burning and in pain right? The scriptures says otherwise.
whichever part of your composition you think is the real concious person, it knows nothing at death!
King James Version
Ec 9:6[u]Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished;[/u] neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
These verse tells you that a dead person has no feelings, it has perished, their love has perished!.
King James Version
Ec 9:10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
can you see what happens to me and you when we die, no knowledge, no works, no wisdom in the grave/ hell/ pit/ sheol where we will all end up! do you agree with the scriptures or do you disagree with the words of a very wise man inspired by God?!


look at all these other scriptures
Ps 115:17The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.

Ps 6:5For in death there is no mention of you; In the Grave, who will praise you?

Ps 146:3, 4Do not put your trust in princes Nor in a son of man, who cannot bring salvation.4His spirit goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish.

Isa 38:18For the Grave cannot glorify you, Death cannot praise you. Those who go down into the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.

Ps 88:10Will you perform wonders for the dead? Can those powerless in death rise up to praise you?

Joh 11:11After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am going to awaken him

Isa 26:14They are dead; they will not live. Powerless in death, they will not rise up. For you have turned your attention to them To annihilate them and destroy all mention of them.

can the soul die? yes
King James Version
Eze 18:4Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

King James Version
Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

King James Version
Re 16:3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.

Douay-Rheims Bible
jos 2:13 That you will save my father and mother, my brethren end sisters, and all things that are theirs, and deliver our souls from death

King James Version
Ps 33:19To deliver their soul from death, and to keep them alive in famine.

King James Version
Ps 56:13For thou hast delivered my soul from death: wilt not thou deliver my feet from falling, that I may walk before God in the light of the living?

from the scriptures, weave learnt the soul can refer to the person himself or the life the person has.

Some do believe in Hellfire due to experience. A man comes into your home, kills your husband , your children and takes your 3 month old baby away, only to find the mutilated corpse of that baby few weeks later. The woman will not be blamed if she wishes that man who committed those atrocities a lifetime of pain. but if God has promised you he will take away your pain, why do you still wish that the man continues to suffer after your pain has been taking away and joy added to your gift of evalasting life. If God told you that the man that brought you such pain no longer exists, he is not in pain, not feeling anything, would such knowledge make you less happy?

The God that created man, told us in his book to man, what man is, he also had recorded what he told that man about where he is going when he dies, what will happen to him when he dies. how will such man feel when he finds out that he is not where God said he will be when he died, nor in a condition God said he will be when he died.

man was created, man was nothing before creation. if such creation( man) does not serve the purpose or reason of being created, the best thing to do is to uncreate him and return him to nothing. abi no be so ?

Jozzy4:
someone asks this same question some years ago, i was just smiling , I remember some people saying if God could reward humans with endless life in heaven , then endless life in hell is justified .


but there are so many problems with this reasoning, a certain man stood up and said :

1, does that mean the folk that made heaven do so by his power ? he makes himself deserve it ?,if NO , how then could you say someone in hell makes himself deserve it !

2- everlasting life is not by merit , ITS A GIFT . if everlasting life is gift given to some and not because they deserve or by their power , logic dictates then that sentencing someone to trilliona nd rillions of year in a torture chamber is not fair and cruel , because they also dont deserve such.


3, if the righteousness of 80 years is not enough to make u worthy of heaven , how then could the sin of 80 years make u worthy of hell ?

everywhere was silent.

I once saw a video of some thugs burning a thief by the roadside. first they beat him up with sticks till he was barely alive, then they poured petrol/kerosene on him and someone lit him up. This man/thief jumped up and started screaming the scream was so heart breaking that several women started crying.
The video was skipped to the part where some of those watching the man get burnt started cursing the burners. They said his punishment is too much, that God will punish the guys who burnt the thief. then something struck me, dnt this people know that many people believe in a god that will continue the punishment of fire for this thief? and this time around their will be no end to his pain? no chance of redemption from these Tuture? I even suspect that some of these people blaming those thugs believe in this God.

This video made me to conclude that some of those who believe this God do not have a real concept of their belief in Hellfire, they do not understand the ramifications of their beliefs.

Some on these thread has said their is no middle ground, but when you ask then what happens to an unborn child or a 3 month old baby who dies , there response will be vague or non existent. There are youths who have heard about Jesus, but they do not understand his teachings yet, and thus did something bad and died, will they be burnt eternally for not knowing Jesus?

there are people who ones killed twins in times past before the missionaries came, thsee people did so because they felt this twins are not human, that they are evil spirits creatures masqueradING as humans, to protect their families and society, this twins must die and so they killed them. those killers believed in goodness, but their goodness is based on an understanding prevalent during their time.

now tell me , you who believe in hell fire, will those killers of twins burn in hell fire forever for trying to protect their family in the only way they understood?

johnw74:
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

It is Jesus Christ that is coming with clouds, and John also shows that in saying "and they also which pierced him"

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

It is Jesus Christ giving revelation to John saying "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending",
phony jw does call Jesus "Jehovah"
they translate Lord (kurios) as "Jehovah"

and you go blank when you read rev 1:1 abi!

the blankness continues when you read verses 4 to 6 too!

Those who want to know the truth read all of it! not only some parts that favour their beliefs.

and after your eyes where opened to this verse, it went blank again when it got to rev 3: 2,12. cuS none of you have found the courage to say who you think is making that speech!

you accuse those who translate kurios as Jehovah, yet you will say nothing against those who translated the name of God as Lord!, see human imperfection at its best.

Rilwon:
I believe you subscribe to the watchtower magazine and here is someone lying about your organization. I expect you to come and defend your belief.

I also opened a thread the other day and none of you turned uphttp://www.nairaland.com/2640984/awakening-jehovahs-witnesses-dismantling-watchtower

oh ok.
but others have done that already, dnt see the need to repeat their statements.

as to the thread you opened, ive not seen it, moreover, it's not a must I respond to all threads about the Watchtower , or is it?

Rilwon:
Aren't you a watchtower member?

What do you mean by Watchtower member , and how does that involve my presence on this thread sir!

DoctorAlien:
Do you know that the same thing that happens to animals is what happens to man?

"For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as one dieth, so dieth the other, yea, they have all one breath; ... All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again" Eccl. 3:19,20.

If the same thing that happens to man happens to animals, are the souls of animals immortal too?

not only same thing happening to them , the verse also says they have same spirit, go to the same PLACE, and are from same place.
your question is very very very important, and I hope they give a scriptural answer.

Rilwon:
Cc: dolphinheart

wetin happen sir!

Gen 2: 7 had given us a verry good knowledge on what the soul is, a man(made from dust, with the breathe of life in him) is a soul, it has life. likewise animals that has spirit in them are souls!.

There are people on this thread who had tried to prove that the souls is immortal, but to do so, they have to seperate the soul from the body, and then refer to man as the soul and not the body. but scriptures quoted so far does not surpport this.
The part I dnt like is when words are added to Specific words that the bible used in describing man and what happens to you at death.

The scriptures tells us that man is a living soul, some scriptures say "life, living being, etc" I which they could have done a research into this and realise the truth about what soul really is. One who wants to can start with the Hebrew word "nephesh" which has Been translated into different english words even in same translation.

If soul is also translated as life, then what leaves the body is the life of that person. that is the life that person enjoys had stop functioning.
what made it to stop functioning , the spirit which was used to activate the man is no longer active in the man.
I can quote lots of scriptures to surpport my views, but not yet.

for those who believe the soul goes to hell fire and it is immortal, pls go and read about what man's creator said will happen to the first man when he died. God told him where he will return to.
For those who use gehenna as hell fire, you like that verse cus it talks about soul and body, and you can use to say soul seperate from the body, but how you refuse to explain how come the body goes to hell fire too with the soul is what baffles me, if you can't explain that, dnt you think your understanding of the verse is wrong?. you say soul is seperate from the body, but you quote scriptures that say soul and body goes to the same place and have the same outcome, how, why?.

The scriptures has said man is a living soul
the scriptures had refered to men as souls
the scriptures had made reference to souls doing physical things such as eating
the scriptures had said "soul that is sinning will DIE!
but some will still claim the soul cannot die.

anything that has been created, can be uncreated. The process of the creation of man is mentioned in the bible, the psalmist reversed that process to show how man dies and where man goes to then he dies. man without the spirit is dead, that's why only God through Jesus can ressurected anyone, can give that person life again, and this time evalasting!

brocab:
I have been inside a few of the JW churches in the past, bringing with me my King James bible, and every time I had entered the church, I found my King James bible was pushed aside, only because the JW's prefer to teach another doctrine, and that doctrine came directly from the watchtower magazines. A book that doesn't line up with the word of God.
The JW's would hand me a magazine so I too could be taught about the watchtower's teachings.
The JW's may not care if you bring your own bible along, but they do care, what doctrine they teach. And it isn't the word of God.

you've started again with your lies abi!? so they tell you to open the Watchtower during a publip talk?

Medicis:
it means;(1)the soul that continues in sin, without repentance towards God, and faith in Christ, shall surely die the second death; shall be separated from the presence of God, and endure his wrath to all eternity: (2).or the meaning in the context of that bible verse is that a person that is guilty of gross sins, and continues inthem, shall personally suffer; he shall endure one calamity or another, as the famine, sword, pestilence, or be carried into captivity, which is the death all along spoken of in this chapter; the Lord will exercise no patience towards him, or defer punishment to a future generation, his offspring; but shall immediately execute it upon himself. Matt 10:28 "Do not be afraid of those
who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. This verse shows that the body can be killed and the soul can still exist separately.

you can see that you had to add a lot of your personal views to make your explanation of that verse semi credible, the verse says, the soul that is sinning will die. In a short it explicitely tells us souls can die.

I believe you are a Christian too, so pls make use of the scriptures when making these additions.

you quoted part of matt 10: 28, but subtly omitted the second part of what happens to the soul and body in gehenna. that is not how we are supposed to discuss bro.

We are discussing immortality of the soul, so I wunt digress by asking you how come the body and soul goes to the same place at death!, cus I thought you said they seperate.

pls add your views of gen 2:7 to your reply when responding.
you can also add gen 3:19 if you feel ok with it

Medicis:
Follower of Christ.. Ie you believe he died on the cross and rose from the dead and that he is the son of the living God Right?

I believe that Jesus died and was ressurected by God, yes I believe Jesus is the son of the living God.

can you now respond to the scriptures quoted and explained?

Medicis:
Hello! Pls are you an atheist or Muslim? I'll really wanna know your faith b4 I respond.

does my faith determine the truth? no
does my faith determines what the scriptures says? no
does my faith determine if you will tell me you view of the scriptures I quoted to you or not? I guess so it will.

so ill tell you this, I'm a follower of christ.

Medicis:
Without a doubt the human soul is
immortal. This is clearly seen in many Scriptures
in both the Old and New Testaments:

you did not respond to the scriptures I quoted, maybe you think the scriptures where lying and you decided to contradict those verses by mentioning other verses.

Psalm
22:26 ; 23:6 ; 49:7-9 ;

New International Version
The poor will eat and be satisfied; those who seek the LORD will praise him-- may your hearts live forever!
1. does this say soul is immortal? no
2. does it say everyone will live forever ? no " evalasting life is only available to those who seek jehovah"

remember, the psalmist said the dead cannot praise God.

King James Version
Ps 23:6Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Ps 49:7None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:
Ps 49:8(For the redemption of their soul is precious, and it ceaseth for ever
Ps 49:9That he should still live for ever, and not see corruption.

1. did David just start dwelling in the house of the Lord immediately after he died?no(read what apostle peter said about david)
2. does every soul goes into the house of the Lord? no

if you had read pslams 49 :7-9 , you probably would not have made this post, cus it explains why humans cannot have evalasting life by themselves.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 ;

King James Version
Ec 12:7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
1. are you a spirit? no
2. is the soul(man)a spirit? no (read again about how God created the first man and what happened to the first man when he died)

Daniel
12:2-3 ; Matthew 25:46 ; and 1 Corinthians
15:12-19 . Daniel 12:2 says, “Multitudes who
sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some
to everlasting life, others to shame and
everlasting contempt.” Similarly, Jesus Himself
said that the wicked “will go away to eternal
punishment, but the righteous to eternal
life” ( Matthew 25:46 ).it is clear that from Matthew 25:46 both the wicked and the
righteous have an eternal/immortal soul.

your quote have blown your theory out of the water. " multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake". This means they where sleeping before they where awoken right? right!
it is only after these resurrection has occurred that some will gain evalasting life.
what did Jesus said when he said that Lazarus was sleeping, Jesus said " Lazarus has died"
the verses did not tell you that souls live after death, but surely they will live after resurrection.


Matt 25:46: you are using what jesus said will happen when he comes to determine if souls are immortal or not. Haba.
moreover, why give evalasting life to those you already say have evalasting life?
did that verse say that those who did not follow jesus will be given evalasting life? no

King James Version
1Co 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Ro 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

bro, follow the scriptures when it tells you that the soul that is sinning ,WILL DIE!

You can kindly to google to explain the meaning eternal life and immortality.

apart from the fact that you can't respond to scriptures that says souls that is sinning will die, you have now refused to differenciate two important things you talked about.

Medicis:
Every soul is immortal. ETERNAL LIFE is when you spend your immortality with Jesus in heaven and ETERNAL CONTEMPT is when you spend your immortality in hell. The Devil is immortal but doesn't have eternal life.

not even one bible verse to support your man made theory.
pls explain immortality, then explain eternal life.
King James Bible
eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.......

eze 18:4 King James Bible
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Gen 2: 7 King James Bible
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and MAN BECAME A LIVING SOUL!

johnw74:
The writer of Hebrews testifies that the Father never called an angel His son etc,

you have started adding lies to your false doctrine.

and the writer also testifies that Father God called His Son "God", and the writer himself testifies that Jesus is not an angel.
But supposed jw's don't believe the testimony of the writer of Hebrews, and the so called jw's don't believe the testimony of Father God.

but you are now deliberately omitting part of the writers teachings, the writer also stated that God called himself the God of the one he anointed. These words are from the same writer of Hebrews.

New International Version
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore GOD, YOUR GOD, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."

did the writer talk about one person or two persons there?
Is one person the God of the other person? yes
did one person anoint the other person? yes
does the one being anointed have companions ? yes yes yes.

The writer of heb probably Knew false doctrine about the father and son will come , hence he used that verse to defend the truth. you see it, but because you know that it will not surpport your doctrine , you refuse to quote it along with the verses you quoted. you refuse to acknowledge the word word of God .
( for those reading this thread: notice that when these post is replied by those who believe in false doctrines, that verse (heb1:9)will be cut off, and if it's not cut off, they will never ever try to explain it, cus doing so will show that their doctrine is false.)

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

can you see what the writer is telling you? God spoke through the Prophets before, they where is messenger, but as at the time of the writer, God spoke through his son. from this, we know that
1. The God that spoke through the prophet is not the son
2. like the Prophets, the son is a messenger of God.
3. The son is the heir to all things. to be an heir shows you do not presently own all things, therefore jesus is not almighty God!
4. The one who was sent on a message and the one who did the sending are not equal!

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

wow! jesus is not the Majesty on high, Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high!, following gods instruction for him to do so!, does this not through the trinity doctrine into the dustbin?

Heb 1:4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

do you agree with the writer that Jesus was MADE! , who made jesus better than the angels?
how was he made better than the angles,the writer answers : as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than theirs.

Heb 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

the answer: jesus!

Heb 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
heb 1:9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy."


Father God said of the angels," who made them spirits"
but to the Son He said,Thy throne "O God" is for ever and ever.

It is quite evident that the God in verse 8 , has a God (verse 9)
now does jesus have a God? (readers should check if these question is ever answered)

The writer of Hebrewes and Father God show a clear distinction between the angels and the Son in all these verses.

and the writer mentioned the reason why, hope you saw it? hope you saw why and how jesus became better than his companions?

supposed jw's change and twist the plain words, and try to make these sentences say something else.

supposed jw's don't believe the writer of Hebrews and supposed jw's don't believe Father God.

supposed jw are telling you the truth with the numerous scriptures you can't respond to

goodnews201668:
My brother you have always try to declare the truth but the blind, ignorant and apostates will always misrepresent the truth yet they can't cover the truth.

When you show them truth as found in the Bible they'll corner it and will never refute it, may you live long!

thank you bro.

to those who read this thread.

I've said time and time again that those who believe that Jesus is almighty God will never explain the relationship between jesus and the father to you. They know jesus is not the same person as the father yet they endeavor to merge the two of them together.
jehovah had said he alone is the Almighty God and no one else except him.
Jesus has said that only the father is the only true God, but some will prefer to force jesus to assume that position too.
Jesus has shown us that the father is his God and our God , but some will want to another person as our God.
Jesus has always shown subjection to the father, but some no gree, they want jesus to take up equality with the father.
Jesus has been exalted to sit beside our God who is the most high, but some will want jesus to sit where the most high God is sitting.
God gave jesus the Revelation, but some will prefer that the revelation came from Jesus, cus they call him almighty God.

pls notice, you would or will ask these people about their beliefs, but they will not be able to explain to you, they will not be able to explain how the word can be with God and still be that same God, how the word can be God and still have a beginning. more importantly, they will not be able to answer or explain or use any of the numerous scriptures I've quoted so far on these thread.

They want you to believe without details, but I encourage you to ask questions, the answers will help in your quest for knowledge and search for the truth.
ask them:
does jesus have a god?
is he the same person as this God?
is he equal to his God?
or is he subjected to his God?
who gave jesus authority, did he give himself or was given?
did Jesus ever claim to be almighty God?
who anointed jesus?
who is that person to jesus?
when Jesus was is the presence of God, was he the same person as the God he was in presence of?
who sent jesus, was the person who sent jesus superior to jesus?

the answers to these questions and more supported by scripture verses, will help those who want to know the truth, know it.

John 1:1
14th century - Wycliffe's Bible (from the 4th-century Latin Vulgate ) reads: "In the beginning was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.

1808 “and the Word was a god” - Thomas Belsham The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome ’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text , London.

1822 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament in Greek and English (A. Kneeland, 1822.);

1829 "and the Word was a god." - The Monotessaron; or, The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists (J. S. Thompson, 1829);

1863 "and the Word was a god." - A Literal Translation Of The New Testament (Herman Heinfetter [Pseudonym of Frederick Parker], 1863);

1864 “the LOGOS was God, This was in the Beginning with God” A New Emphatic Version (right hand column)

1864 “and a god was the Word” (left hand column interlinear reading) The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson , New York and London.

1867 “In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God” - The Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible .

1879 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (J. Becker, 1979);

1885 "and the Word was a god." - Concise Commentary On The Holy Bible ( R. Young , 1885);

1911 "and the Word was a god." - The Coptic Version of the N.T. (G. W. Horner, 1911);

1935 “and the Word was divine” - The Bible — An American Translation, by John M. P. Smith and Edgar J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1955 “so the Word was divine” - The Authentic New Testament, by Hugh J. Schonfield , Aberdeen.

1956 The Wuest Expanded Translation reads: “In the beginning the Word was existing. And the Word was in fellowship with God the Father. And the Word was as to His essence absolute deity”

1958 "and the Word was a god." - The New Testament of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Anointed" (J. L. Tomanec, 1958);

1962, 1979 "'the word was God.' Or, more literally, 'God was the word.'" The Four Gospels and the Revelation (R. Lattimore, 1979)

1966, 2001 The Good News Bible reads: "...and he was the same as God."

1970, 1989 The Revised English Bible reads: "...and what God was, the Word was."

1975 " and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word" Das Evangelium nach Johnnes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany

1975 "and the Word was a god." - Das Evangelium nach Johannes (S. Schulz, 1975);

1978 “and godlike sort was the Logos” - Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1993 The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God, in readiness for God from day one. - The Message, by Eugene H. Peterson.


one thing is sure , the apostles told us who our God is , and they recorded it, so that we can be protected from man made doctrines. and as christians we should follow what the scriptures says.

King James Version
Eph 4:6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

King James Version
1Co 8:5For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
1Co 8:6But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

King James Version
1Co 11:3But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God

do you know and accept the God is the head of christ?

Surely if you accept, you would also accept when the apostles told us who that God is


King James Version
Eph 1:17That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him


Col 1:3We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,

johnw74:
Of course dolphinheart is such a perverter of the truth, that he called the Christian God:

who is the Christian God ?

King James Bible
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

King James Bible
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to MY GOD, AND YOUR GOD.!

King James Bible
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

those that believe in 2 headed god , two persons in 1 god, can never ever adress those scriptures, they will always act as if it did not exist.

analice107:
@Dolphineheart, I said am done wasting my time on you JW. You know why? You can never see anything differently. Watchtower is your final authority, so why waste my time answering you? You use Watchtower to discuss the Bible rather than use the Bible to study the Watchtower. Pls enjoy.

I've quoted from the scriptures to you, not from any other book. its the scriptures I quoted that I'm asking you to share your views on, not on the Watchtower.
We are discussing the scripture before, how has it now turn to where one gets its authority from.

Thank God I was able to break free from this Web, before it was too late. This is how I would have been possessed with the negative spirit of argument.
Guy, since I joined NL and met you guys. Only Watchtower guides your reasons. You know what? That's enough.
You don't get tired of argument. Smh

are we arguing? I do not think asking for your vieW's over scriptures I quoted to you as argument.
your personal opinion on how I reason have prevented your from telling your views about scriptures quoted to you. It's ok, I accept your stand.

but I do hope you will stop claiming that the scriptures where twisted when you can't offer any prove to surpport such twisting.
takin, hope you have a nice evening

excerpts from John chapter 17
(my views are in brackets* blue colour)

[b]
4.I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.(read John 4: 34)

6. “I have made your name(a name that some Translations have tried to remove) manifest to the men whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours, and you gave them to me, and they have observed your word.

7. Now they have come to know that all the things you gave me are from you;

8. because I have given them the sayings that you gave me, and they have accepted them and have certainly come to know that I came as your representative, and they have believed that you sent me.

9. I make request concerning them; I make request, not concerning the world, but concerning those whom you have given me, because they are yours;

11. “I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me, so that they may be one just as we are one.

12. When I was with them, I used to watch over them on account of your own name, which you have given me; and I have protected them, and not one of them is destroyed except the son of destruction, so that the scripture might be fulfilled.

14. I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.

18. Just as you sent me into the world, I also sent them into the world.
21. so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me.

22. I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.

23. I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, so that the world may know that you sent me and that you loved them [color=red]just as you loved me.

24. Father, I want those whom you have given me to be with me where I am, in order that they may look upon my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world.

25. Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you, but I know you, and these have come to know that you sent me.

26. I have made your name known to them and will make it known, so that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”[/b]

the question to you is, do you know the name of the righteous father? what is that name?

King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone
is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Glory belongs to our God and Father forever! Amen.

analice107:
My brother I tire for these people. They read their minds into the scriptures, seeing what they want to see in the scriptures.
I can't waste my time on them anymore.

you have been asked several times to tell what your own understandings of the scriptures posted to you are. You have been given an opportunity to counter my views and explain the scriptures I quoted to you. You have been given an opportunity to prove my understandings of those scriptures wrong. You refuse to do so , you say it's a waste of time, yet you have the time to say some one read his or her mind into the scriptures.
thE scriptures are explicitely plain, straight forward and easy to understand when it talked about the condition of a dead person. The scriptures tells us how man was made, what man really is, and what happened to man when he died. I did show you from the scriptures what the creator of man said will happen to Adam when hi died.

I dnt think it's time you dnt have, I think it's a response to those scriptures that you can't cook up. cus I do believe that if you have a contrary view, you would have been eager to respond.

dolphinheart:
Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

the above will continue to stand as the truth, and surporters of false doctrine will continue to run away from it!
Re 1:1A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,

Re 1:5and from Jesus Christ, “the Faithful Witness,” “the firstborn from the dead,” and “the Ruler of the kings of the earth.” To him who loves us and who set us free from our sins by means of his own blood—
yes
Re 1:6and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father—yes, to him be the glory and the might forever. Amen.

King James Version
Joh 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Jesus has told us countless of times who my God is, he prayed to that God, thought me how to pray to that God, told us about his relationship with that God who exalted him above his companions.
I will not worship a man made God, a two or three headed God, for Jesus has told me , the father is the only true god!

Joh 17:1Jesus spoke these things, and raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son so that your son may glorify you,
Joh 17:2just as you have given him authority over all flesh, so that he may give everlasting life to all those whom you have given to him.
Joh 17:3This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

one should read John chapter 17, it tells you more about the relationship between jesus and God.

dolphinheart:
Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

@ johnw74 , the above are absolute truths, that's why you can't refute any of them. you want to post about your doctrines, those scriptures I posted show's your doctrines are false!. that's y you can never ever explain those scriptures.

Jozzy4:
my Bro, because someone is an atheist does not mean some of the things he/she said is not true . that lady know the bible much more than this fellows who claimed to go to church .. have watched her scatter them using the bible many times . even analice107 cant deny , no wonder she ran away from her logical question : hOw many body have been disposed to hell ? how would she answer when its clear hell was smuggled into the verse .

I think I do understand where analice107 is coming from. Im of the view that she has spent so much energy and pummeled herself to do what she thinks is right before God, and anyone who has not done so deserves to be punished with evalasting pain.
being told that no one will be punished by being thrown into fire to burn for a bilion years and much more will affect her zeal to serve God. She might not believe that their are those who serve God , based on their love for him, not based on a promise of immediate physical reward or fear of being burnt forever.

I once asked the question , which do you think God prefers, those who serve him out of love for him or those who serve him out of fear for what will happen to them if they dnt serve him.

imagine, humans created by God in his image subscribe life sentence for criminals, but they never ever thought of burning them perpetually and inflicting pain continually while they where incaserated.

note: my reference to analice107 is just a view, not a fact.

analice107:
It's a total waste of time answering you all over again. This is not the first time we have done this. Plain scriptures are presented to you, but you twist them to mean what you want them to mean. That's fine. The means determine the end.

you have not answered me anytime I present my views. If you feel that I twist them, then post those scriptures I twisted and eX plain how I twisted them and how we are supposed to understand them.
I've given my views on what happened to Peter, ive also shown you that your views are wrong, i did all that using the words found in the scriptures, if you feel I got the understanding of those words wrong, then state those words and tell us your understanding.

When we all stand before Yahweh all we have done is doing will be clearly before us.
If I have mislead anyone by using this scriptures I will be rewarded accordingly. And if you have used this same words also to mislead anyone, you will also be rewarded accordingly.

good, but that does not stop me and you from discussing those words , or does it?

MizJanet is a rebel and a blasphemer. She doesn't have contrary views. But if you see her views and the views of atheists as just contrary fine.

I dnt know MizJanet, I'm not in a position or authority to condemn or approve her character.

Besides, am beginning to have this inner feeling that the JW subtly stand with the Atheists disbelieving the supernatural. Your views seems to align.
Let me leave you. But let this sink into our consciousness, WE WILL ALL ANSWER. YOUNG OR OLD. I take that back, there's no young or old spirit.

can you give just one instance in which our views seem to align.
The search for evalasting life is done while we are alive, this we still have some authority and control over, why dnt we discuss that and leave for a while, issues we can't control it's outcome.

analice107:
LOL. he/she knows who or what he/she is. She knows what the Word of God says but she rebels. Am Happy that no man will be able to escape standing before God to answer for what they did.
See what gives me this assurance. From the day Adam Fell, a Seed which will bruise the head of the serpent was prophesied, it took along time for that to manifest, but it manifested. Christ was born, spiritually Satan has been terribly bruised.
Again, we are told that they will be a day of judgement for evil, let them rebel, a day of judgement will come. Although, the JW who am beginning to feel stands with the Atheist opposing the supernatural and what the word says about it, are all out to urge the sinners to feel good in their sins, without the consciousness that we will all stand and answer.
I apologised to MizJanet because her rebellion is against God not against me, I have no right to condemn her. But she knows who she is.
Nobody who is not possessed with a demon rebels and blasphemed against God as she does. But over to God I hand her.

Because someone has a different understanding of the scriptures does not mean one is taking a stand with atheists, and because someone is an atheist does not mean some of the things he/she said is not true. one should examine each view carefully and seperately. I for one have shown you my views, explained why it's different from yours and supported it with scriptures, you are yet to reply on that one.

Is the son the same person as the father ? no

is the son equal to the father? no, "the father is greater than i" the son says

did the son ever claim to be God almighty, God of isreal, the most high God? ? no, he only claimed to be the Son of God!

does the son sit on the same throne and have same authority as the father? no he sits at the right hand of God .

was the son given commands? yes, the almighty God cannot be given commands

does the son have a god (someone he worships ) ? yes, " I ascend to my Father... and to my God " he says.

does the son do things on his own? no , he does what the father tells him to do.

does the son show subjection to the father? absolutely yes

does the son have a beginning ? yes
does the father have? no

does the Scriptures seperate the person of God from the person of Jesus ? yes, all the time

has jesus described God? yes , he called him the father, " the only true god"

has God described jesus? yes , he called him " my son, in whom I'm well pleased"

is jesus subjected to God? yes

can you be with someone and be that same person? no

it has been established that God and Jesus are two different persons, there if you make jesus to be that same God, then your God is two persons in one!, a two headed God!.
you also thus claim that Jesus and God are equal, something the scriptures never mentioned nor surpport.

for those who seek life, listen to this words

[b]Joh 3:16“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.

Joh 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who recognizes the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day.”

Joh 20:31But these have been written down so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and because of believing, you may have life by means of his name.

Eph 1:3Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ,

1Ti 2:5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus,

1Co 8:5For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,”
1Co 8:6there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.

Eph 4:6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all[/b]

These are the scriptures in which those who believe in Jesus and the father being the same God would not want to discuss with you , they prefer that the scriptures contradict itself so as to be able to hold on to their false beliefs.

The scriptures explains itself , after reading about the relationship between God and Jesus, it is left for us to now decide if the word is the same God it was with, or if he was a god who was with a much superior God, the almighty.

heb 1:9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with the oil of exultation more than your companions.”

analice107:
Ahh. Na waoo. Plans, purposes and thoughts ceases to exist where nah?
The earth we live in is a realm. It's called the realm of the physical. Where you and I exists in right now. When we die everything about this physical world terminates. Example. This present riot in the University of Port Harcourt. Peter, the dead victim got into the front line, he is dead.
Peter's plans, his purpose on earth, his aspirations, every of his thoughts. Ends on the day he gave up the ghost. But does that mean in the spiritual realm Peter ceases to exist? No.

your thoughts and purpose ceases to exist not only on earth, but anywhere you might think the dead goes.

King James Version
Ec 9:5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not ANY THING, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dead dnt know anything at all, where they are, why they are there, no thoughts, no thinking, no existence, no pain.
you where not alive before you became alive, such experience is what you will get when you lose the life you where given.

King James Version
Ec 9:6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

This personal feelings of man does not exist in him after death, because at death, his feelings ceases to exist!
King James Version
Ec 9:10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest .

not only is there no thoughts or feelings when someone dies, the scriptures also includes no actions whatsoever. It states that there is no knowledge in the place where one goes at death.

note what that verse says again, it says "you", not "part of you" goes to the grave/realm of the death/ sheol/ hell. and when you are there, you know nothing, feel nothing, do nothing, NO KNOWLEDGE, NO WISDOM, NO DEVISE IN HELL!

part of your post, which i underlined above, supports these view: peters thoughts ceases to exist when he died! unless you want to say god gave him a new thought in hell and he cant think about what happened when he was alive.
There are other verses which supports this and which I'll quote as we go along.

The scriptures I gave earlier pointing to the common grave which every man must be buried in. Does our soul which is attached to our spirit stays there with the body? No. The Bible says, the body returns to the ground from where it came, but the spirit returns to his maker to awaiting judgement.

the underlined parts of your statements does not have Scriptural surpport, and cannot be found anywhere in the scriptures.
The scriptures never said our soul is attached to our spirits, it never says the spirit leaves our body and returns to the maker to await judgement.(will also come back to this later)

He ceases to exist amongst us the living. But what happens to his sprit? Remember, he is also a spirit?

not according to the creator and not according to the scriptures.

King James Version
Ge 2:7And the LORD God FORMED MAN OF THE DUST OF THE GROUND, and breathed into HIS nostrils the breath of life; and man BECAME a living soul.

the scriptures tell us that man was formed from the ground, it did not say that man is spirit, it continues by saying " and breathed into his( the man) nostrils" the breathe of life. This spirit is not the man , this spirit is the means, force, power by which the man came to be a LIVING SOUL!.
The man was not giving a soul, he is a soul, a living one
like the animals God had created before him, they too had the spirit in them, and are called souls or living things.

God comfirmed these makeup of man when Adam sinned, he told adam:

]Ge 3:19In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, FOR OUT OF IT YOU WHERE TAKEN. FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN.”

can you see what God , man's maker , called man in that verse? God said " DUST YOU ARE" not "spirit you are"
can you also see where God said man will return to ? he said " and to dust you will return to".
What should one expect when one returns to dust, he ceases to exist!
Adam did not go back to God, Adam is not a spirit, he is a physical being animated by the spirit in him, when such spirits leaves him, the animation stops, and he dies!, returning to what he really is , dust!

do we have other scriptures to surpport these?
Ps 104:29When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
Ec 3:20All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.
Ec 12:7Then the dust returns to the earth, just as it was, and the spirit returns to the true God who gave it.

Let me explain what just happened to Peter. Peter has just been evicted from his house, because his physical body was his house.

Amplified Bible 2 Corinthians 5:1-4
For we know that if the tent which is our earthly (body) is destroyed (dissolved), we have from God a building (Spirit) , a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. Here indeed, in this [present abode, body], we sigh and groan inwardly, because we yearn to be clothed over [we yearn to put on our celestial body like a garment, to be fitted out] with our heavenly dwelling, So that by putting it on we may not be found naked (without a body). For while we are still in this tent, we groan under the burden and sigh deeply (weighed down, depressed, oppressed)—not that we want to put off the body (the clothing of the spirit), but rather that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal (our dying body) may be swallowed up by life [after the resurrection].

Pls note the use of the TENT. Tent here means this flesh which houses our soul and spirit. When the body is put down in death, there's where our souls which is attached to out spirit goes.

do you know where you got it wrong, the verses where talking about those who where promised heavenly hope, those who will live in heaven, not those who will go to your hell fire.
It is also talking about there body after the resurrection, not before the resurrection. so these verses does not surpport your view that man will have a celestial body in hell prior to resurrection.
If you believe that Peter who died, and is in hell before resurrection, has a celestial body, what body do you think he will now receive after resurrection, another celestial body, or no body at all?
The use of tent shows the writers view of being in existence in a physical, human body as temporary. His aim is for his body to be changed from a physical one to a celestial one.

Luke 16:19-30
There was a certain rich man who [habitually] clothed himself in purple and fine linen and reveled and feasted and made merry in splendor every day.

And at his gate there was [carelessly] dropped down and left a certain utterly destitute man named Lazarus, [reduced to begging alms and] covered with [ulcerated] sores.

He [eagerly] desired to be satisfied with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover, the dogs even came and licked his sores.

And it occurred that the man [reduced to] begging died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom.

The rich man also died and was buried. And in Hades (the realm of the dead), being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.

And he cried out and said, Father Abraham, have pity and mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.

But Abraham said, Child, remember that you in your lifetime fully received [what is due you in] comforts and delights, and Lazarus in like manner the discomforts and distresses; but now he is comforted here and you are in anguish.

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who want to pass from this [place] to you may not be able, and no one may pass from there to us. And [the man] said, Then, father, I beseech you to send him to my father’s house— For I have five brothers—so that he may give [solemn] testimony and warn them, lest they too come into this place of torment.

But Abraham said, They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear and listen to them. But he answered, No, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent (change their minds for the better and heartily amend their ways, with abhorrence of their past sins).

Jesus used the known to reveal the unknown to us.

Hades, which is also referred to as Hell, is a location, a place. This realm of the dead is where the souls of men are kept AWAITING judgement. Here, everyone dies goes here according to the passage above. Nobody gets judged immediately they die.
And this realm comprises of two chasms, Paradise for those who lived right on earth like Lazarus, and Hades("hell", where there's torment but, the torment here can not be compared to the torment in the lake of fire).

if we follow your explanation, it means there is a pre judgment before actual judgement, some will be tomented before there case comes up for judgement.

taking the parable about lararus literally shows that the scriptures contracdict itself, ive shown you the condition of the dead earlier, and it does not correspond with the literal condition of lazarus and the rich man.
You ones said man is spirit which returns to God for judgment, this does not correspond with your literal belief in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.
Lazarus died, his spirit goes to God, then gets judged, then gets sent to a part of hell.
Yet you said, while in hell, Lazarus has not yet been judged. can you see how your views contradict each other!

you mentioned paradise, by your explanation, it means paradise is in hell right?
1. can you surpport this with scripture
2. what happens to that paradise when hell is being thrown into the lake of fire?

have you ever read about the spirits going to hell? no.

are there other scriptures that do not surpport your views? yes.
King James Version
Ps 88:10Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

King James Version
Ps 115:17The dead PRAISE NOT the LORD, neither ANY that go down into SILENCE.

Ps 115:17The dead do not praise Jah; Nor do any who go down into the silence of death.

the dead are silent, no discussion in hell. The dead are silent, Lazarus could not have been able to talk about God.


King James Version
Isa 38:18For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

When resurrection takes place, everyone, both good and bad shall be taken up out of this realm, place, location, and be judged. Some to everlasting life and some to the lake of fire. And Hades, which is also called hell, which is a location, or a place, shall also be cast into the lake of fire.

What happens to Hades in the lake of fire, why does God throw the paradise into the lake of fire?

Pls what do you mean by 'If we live after resurrection, the hope of resurrection is meaningless?" So when we resurrect we don't
Continue to live on?
Young man, Spirits don't die. We die only in our bodies. Our spirits forever, either in Hellfire or in Heaven with Christ.

the scriptures does not surpport your views.
do you know that the scriptures does not teach that we have individual spirits? , all our spirits(breathe of life are the same) . that's why when talking about that spirit, the scriptures use "spirit"and not "spirits" even when talking about more than one person.
The scriptures even went on to state that the spirit in you and I and animals are the same.

Ec 3:19for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile.
So what happens to the spirit in animals when they die?

The issues of Hellfire starts breaking apart when one looks at what burns there, the soul, the spirit , or the body. Some claim it's the spirit, some claim it's the soul, some claim it's the spirit and soul, while some claim it's the three, but they cannot surpport such views using the scriptures.

discussing what the soul really is gives credence to the bibles statement " adam became a living soul".[/quote]