₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus:
what reality shows otherwise?
and i'll say YES. Nobody venerate images 4 their own sake, the church is clear on that, what we have is relative honor, ie we honor what d image represent and not just d image 4 itself. That is what joshua did.

I've shown you what joshua did, ive shown you , using the scriptures, why he did that. now tell us, what does the ark represent?
joshua bowed before the ark cus he is sure that he can get to hear from jehovah there. He did not just do it on his own volition, his actions was based on precedence, an action accepted by God, an action that was recorded, an action that has divine directives.
1. The construction of the ark was by Jehovahs directive.
2. the details where recorded.
3. Jehovah showed his approval of the construction physically and it was recorded.
4. Jehovah told then to approach him before the ark and only those ordained to do so did.
5. Jehovah presence is with the ark, it was seen and recorded.

ube, can you align any image constructed today with these points above? Take the points one by one, and tell us if any image you bow down to fulfill these things .
If it can't, then it shows you can't compare the image joshua bowed before, and the reason he bowed before it, with the images you bow before, and the reasons you bow before it.

weldone now u are helping me make my point. Joshua lies down b4 an image cos it represents d power of God

Lets for the mean time take this as true.
1. The power was physically manifest.
2. the promise of the physical manifestation was given
3. everything that joshua did had divine aprovAl, directive, and precedence.

THe bowing down to the image today, do not have those things!

this is non seqitur, it doesnt matter whether or not joshua could see d image, the issue is dat he prostrated b4 it.

it's just to show you that the images today do not follow precedence or directives, the images God commanded to be made where not kept in the open or doorways where anyone could see them. only very very very very few people could see them. 99% of isrealites did not see these images.
Do you cover your images up?

brocab:
Amplified bible-{John 4:23} "But the time is coming, and is already here when the true worshippers will worship the Father in Spirit {From the heart the inner self} and in truth, the Father seeks such people to be His worshippers. God is Spirit {The source of life, yet invisible to mankind} And those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

and do you see who true worshipers worship? The verse you quotes said they worship " THE FATHER".
A big question I've been asking you for ages now is: is jesus same person as the father?

As I had said from the beginning God is Spirit, and no one has seen God at any time.
KJ Bible-{Matthew 10:19-20} But when they hand you over, do not worry but how or what you are to say, for what you are to say, will be given you WITHIN that {very} hour. For it is not you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
{The Spirit of God speaks through us, like He did with Peter}
If God was another man, then how can another man speak through another man?

with your lies and refusal to quote and explain scriptures put to you, I dnt think you are part of the people jesus was talking to.
1. I've never told you that God was a man, therefore your question is not for me.
2. you claim that Jesus in you, now does jesus speak through you?, is jesus not a man?
(another question I know you wunt respond to )

{John 15:26} "When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father the Spirit of truth who go's out from the Father-He will testify about Me.
If the Father was another human being, as you Jw's believe He is, Then Jesus would see God, and God wouldn't send Moses and Elijah who stood in Spirit with Jesus on the mount. He would come Himself.

WHY DO YOU ALWAYS LIE BROCAB!

So this proves Jesus can only speak to God through word, Not as a Spirit being like Moses and Elijah had come.

you want to extablish a theory through lies right!. If you do small research and check if jesus was a spirit or not when he came to earth and after he went to heaven, it will help a lot.

And if God was a man like being, then How does one man speak through another, if God is a man Himself? Would God not Have a spirit form like Moses and Elijah? Did Jesus only speak to God in Spirit, that no-man has seen at any time. Jesus had always spoke of God as a Spirit, He never spoke of God as a second man.

wow!, I'm waiting for you to tell me who ever told you the father was ever a man!

And if God is the Spirit, and Jesus came to earth as a man, filled with the Holy spirit that proceeded out from the Father God, then one spirit and one man equals one being working together in Spirit and in truth.

Haba!, brocab, before jesus came to earth as a man, what form or nature was he? answer that and you'll stop this "one spirit, one man", false theory. even you do not believe it, that's why you can't answer where you place the soul in all these your theory. I asked you several questions on these, but you failed to answer. Any theory built on lies, when it's tested with questions, will fail woefully!

Like in a marriage we become one.

do they become one person? no!
do they become one man? no!
do their bodies merge and become just one entity? no!
therefore to become one means they are united, having same purpose!

{1 John 5:7} "For theirs three that bear record in heaven, The Father the word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are ONE.
But because your NWT bible had removed many of these scriptures, It makes it difficult for you to understand, what we understand.

It is very difficult for me to understand false doctrines based on additions and insertions into the scriptures.

brocab, go and do a research on those scriptures you say where omitted, ive given you some reasons, but you did not reply them. I even told you to check the footnote of the nkiv, at least you believe those versions , this you refuse to do. How do you want to now learn the truth when you refuse to do simple research.

"The Comma Johanneum (or Johannine Comma or Heavenly Witnesses) is a comma (a short clause) in the First Epistle of John, 1 John 5:7–8 . The scholarly consensus is that that passage is a Latin corruption that entered the Greek manuscript tradition in subsequent copies.
The passage in question, 1 John 5:7–8 (KJV), with the Comma in bold print , reads:
7. For there are three that bear record in heaven ,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost:
and these three are one.
8. And there are three that bear witness in earth ,
the spirit, and the water, and the blood:
and these three agree in one. [a]
The Comma and the question of its authenticity have particular bearing on the development of the doctrine of the Trinity , which is central to most mainstream......."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

No-one is denying the Father, but in your case-you believe the father is like another human being, when the bible clearly states He is not.

stop lying brocab!, it does not help.
You are not denying the Father , but you can't answer the question if jesus is the same person as the father?
you are not denying the Father, but you can't quote where Jesus and the disciples refered to the father as his and their God!
you are not denying the Father, but you can't quote where Jesus said the father is the only true God!

So Jesus was not denying that God existed {Philippians 2:5-11} Having this mind amongst yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though He was in the form of God, did not account equality with God, a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, by taking the form of a servant being born in the likeness of men, and being found in human form, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death. even death on the cross. Therefore God has highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth. and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

you read this scriptures and yet you spill falsehood?, do you not understand what you are being told there?
can you not see that the God being refered to in those verses is a different person from Jesus?
The verses tell you who God is, it tells you that that God exalted jesus, yet you do not want to believe.

He and the Father are one, one Spirit one man. John 20:28 When Thomas said My Lord and My God, why didn't Jesus correct Him?

I've answered you already, you did not respond, now you are repeating the question.

Acts 7:59-60 Why did Steven call upon God, and saying Lord Jesus receive my spirit?

Because he saw Jesus, who he recognises as one sent to save him, standing by God's right side!
Ac 7:55,56 (kjv)-But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
Ro 8:34Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

remember, by these time, Jesus had been given all authority, including the authority to resurected to eternal life.

And why did Jesus say before Abraham I am?

he said so because he so because he existed before Abraham!

So theirs a lot to answer for, and your bible removing these missing links sure makes a difference in word.

I've answered your questions including the additions to the scriptures. hope you can answer some of mine stated below.


[b]
(1)Just tell us the name of the church you associate with, that you are a member of!. If possible you can include its official website, at least you surpport using technology in Gods work.

(2) bring out one thing that I wrote that the organization denied!
Note: the organization, and not a third party, or outsider must deny it. It must be from official sources.
Your failure to do so will comfirm to all that you are a liar, someone who use lies to respond to the truth being shown to him.

(3)Tell us, do you know that Jesus Christ told someone that he has a God? And that statement was recorded in the kjv.? Can you tell us where this can be found?
If you can't answer this question brocab, then you dnt know the truth about Christ!.
Expecially. The one spoken by Jesus himself.

(4) Tell me brocad, which organization today does these(the preaching work) best, the way Jesus proscribed and the disciples practised. I know you know it, but hatred will now allow you mention them.

(5)You are a systemic liar, the God I worship was never a human and I never said or implied so!.

You cannot attempt to answer the questions :
When you say he is spirit, are you saying God is the spirit in Jesus when he was here on earth?
Pls say yes and ill show you how much of your doctrines is full of falsehood.
Saying no will show that your doctrine lacks prove.(I believe you wunt answer anyway)
Examine this questions brocab 1. If you say one body, one spirit, was Jesus a spirit before he came to earth?
2. When Jesus was on earth, was the spirit in him his, the father or the holy spirit.?
3. After Jesus left the earth, did he remain in the body or became a spirit?
4. What does Jesus mean by " the father is greater than I am"
5. Why does Jesus say he is going to the father when you are trying to say he is spirit.
6. You asked a question, the answer is yes, but ill like to ask you, what about the soul, why did you remove the soul when fomulating your question.

You cannot answer if Jesus is the same person as the father.

You cannot respond ;
Liar, liar, liar! Show where I said so. Show where I used the words " Jesus isn't a God".

You can't do this :
Simply quote and explain rev 1:1-6 from any translation of your choice
Explain verses 1 and 6....
Tell use who is talking in rev 3:2,12.....


brocab , readers will note(again and again) that you have NOT quoted and explained ANY of the following scriptures :

1.rev 1:1,6
2. Rev 3, 2,13
3. John 17:1-3
4. Heb 1:1 -9
5. John 20:17
6. 1 cor 11:3
7 . 1 ti 2 :5,6
8.Acts 4:10
9. Acts 2:36
10. Acts 2:24
11. Acts 5:30
12.Acts 10:38,40,43
11. Phil 2:9:11
12. john 14:6
13. Acts 4 : 26,27, 30
14. 1 john 4:14
15. Heb 5:7
16. ps 28:18

And a host of others ill add later.

Brocab , examine these scripture
Acts 5: 31.
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
John 3:16.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten
Son, that whosoever believeth
in him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.

Jesus is Gods only begotten son, Jesus is not God almighty ![/b]

[quote author=Ubenedictus post=44167931][/quote]you don't need to continue arguing , the facts , using the scriptures has been presented to you.
Good to know that you have accepted that the miracle in Cana was the first jesus ever performed.

Ubenedictus:
i actually quoted the verse here

the bible says
"joshua...prostrated himself before the ark" joshua 7:6


who is lying, you accuse
catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated before an image.

first thing first, pls dnt lie against me, on this thread, ive not accused anyone of bowing to any image. so pls dnt use a lie to claim that I lied.

now to the issue of the ark and joshua." Bowing before" is different from "bowing to". If you bow before something it means you are using that thing to achieve something, it does not mean you are venerating it. but if you bow to it, it means you are venerating/ worshiping it!

now the questions are:
1. did joshua bow before or to the ark
2. why did joshua do such
3. did joshua see the ark?

1. joshua did not bow to the ark , he bowed before the ark
Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the LORD, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads.

one can claim that catholics bow before the image of Mary but not to the image of Mary using joshuas example as basis, but reality shows otherwise.
I'll like to ask, do they do it the same way as joshua did his bowing down!

2. why did joshua bow before the ark.
The answers are partly answered by the next verse
Jos 7:7Joshua said: “Alas, Sovereign Lord Jehovah, why did you bring this people all the way across the Jordan just to hand us over to the Amʹor·ites to be destroyed? If only we had been satisfied to remain on the other side of the Jordan!

joshua was praying to Jehovah before the ark , lamenting their predicament that was stated in the previous verses.
but praying to Jehovah before the ark does not fully answer why he did so, why does joshua feel it is ok to pray to Jehovah before that particular image.? The scriptures gives us the answer below.
ex 25:22 - There, above the cover between the two cherubim that are over the ark of the covenant law, I will meet with you and give you all my commands for the Israelites.

lev 16:2- The LORD said to Moses: "Tell your brother Aaron that he is not to come whenever he chooses into the Most Holy Place behind the curtain in front of the atonement cover on the ark, or else he will die. For I will appear in the cloud over the atonement cover.

with this scriptures above , we can see that joshua is right to seek jehovah before the ark because jehovah has stated and had it recorded that his presence is with the ark!
Read judges 20:27,28, ; num 20:6

so bro joshua did not venerate the ark because of bowing down before it, but he was seeking the presence of jehovah. same as moses and Aaron.

3. could joshua see the ark when he bowed down before it?
Noo, the ark was always covered when moved, and was always in the tebanacle or tent when not in motion.

Nu 4:5,6,15- Aaron and his sons will come in when the camp is departing and take down the screening curtain and cover the ark of the Testimony with it.
6They will put a sealskin covering over it and spread out a solid blue cloth over it and put its carrying poles in place.
15.“Aaron and his sons must finish covering the holy place and all the utensils of the holy place when the camp is departing. Then the sons of Koʹhath will come in to carry them, but they must not touch the holy place or they will die. These things are the responsibility of the sons of Koʹhath in connection with the tent of meeting.

could joshua enter the tent/tebanacle to see the ark when it was not in motion?
no ooooo! joshua was not a Levites, not a son of Aaron. If he had seen the ark , he would be dead!

now, a wise man will consider these scriptures above and compare how they treated the ark to how the images in churches today are being treated. The following questions should come to a wise ones heart.
1. is there a record that gives details of the construction of these images , even if the records are just f mentioned but the real record is lost?
2. is there any mention that their is physical evidence to show that God is with these physical image or approves of it?
3. is there any record of divine instruction as to the construction of the image.
4. is there any record on the name of the person(s) who will oversee the making of these images.
5. are these images kept from popular viewing
6. how have God viewed images kept in places where all can see?

answers to this questions will help a wise one to see if the making of the images used for religious purposes today is right or wrong.

Ubenedictus:
that is the problem, what the bible says and what u understand are different. The bible says "do not make any graven image unto thyself", ie do not make any graven image For urself, u understand it as, do not make image without command. Sorry but ur understanding is not what is written there.

ube, if you had read my explanation about my understanding, an explanation which was listed, and if you had not deliberately omitted it when quoting my post, maybe you would have seen that there is no problem!. that you omitted it shows that you have nothing to use to counter it, you just want to argue and not discuss.
I gave you an explanation, go back to it, quote it and tell if I'm right or wrong (with reasons). pls stop cutting important parts of my post off

" , I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.
1. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where approved by jehovah for religious purpose.
2. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where not approved by jehovah.
3. All the images approved by jehovah had a prior command approving it's construction
4. All the images not aproved by jehovah did not have a prior command.
5. There fore "do not make for yourself" could not mean "do not make for yourself any image at all" Since there is evidence to show that they did made images(for there own use) that has gods approval.
6. looking at the images God approved and disproved , we can conclude that "do not make for yourselves" mean "do not make for yourself any image without prior approval or command" as all image maDe without this where rejected by jehovah."

here we go.

Below is what you said

"For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God
had it recorded and
preserved."
you claim God did this for every image, ie "had it instruction recorded and preserved" the above passages talk abt d achitectural plan of d temple and it utensils, it didnt mention a single thing about the images i asked about, the trees and d winged creature i ask about, remember you said details were given and d instruction was RECORDED and PRESERVED.

Why did you cut part of my post, cus you know reading it will not allow you ask these questions, I'll answer you, but you need to quote my post again, leaving everything INTACT! cus the answers are in the part you deliberately omitted.

by the way, why did you refuse to respond to the points I showed to you, are they true or false?[/quote]

Ubenedictus:
u are d one making the claim that the scripture i quoted and the one jusmudi alluded to a different, it is ur work to show that they are.

I like keeping things in a right formal way, I wunt use what you posted to argue against what jusmudi posted. If you want me to show you the differences, pls quote what jusmudi stated and defend it by quoting the scripture you want to use to defend it. or jusmudi can he himself quote the scriptures to defend his post.
note: I did not say post the scripture, I said quote the scripture, I'm tired of going through posted scriptures that do not correspond with what the person is saying.

Ubenedictus:
i'll give u d right interpretation as a favour.

A sign in biblical terms, is what a prophet do or even a prophesy that must be fulfilled to show Gods power and dat he is frm God. That is why the jews asked Jesus for signs to show he is d messiah, it was like a public proof, something a prophet does to make others believe.

Put simply miracle does not mean exactly d same thing as a sign. A miracle is about God suspending d natural laws to intervene, a sign is a miracle 4 others to believe.

The bible says dat was Jesus first sign it didnt say it was the first miracle he performed. There is a difference.

by the bolded above, you are telling us that if you perform a sign, you have performed a miracle.
I wunt go into the definition or differences between miracles and signs, I just want you to look at the same verse from other translations and tell me they are wrong to use the word "miracles" in that verse.
ube, if the translations are not wrong, then it means your explanation is false and you need to retract it!

King James Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

NET Bible
Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This first miracle Yeshua did in Qatna of Galilee and he manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Cana in Galilee was the place where Jesus began to perform miracles. He made his glory public there, and his disciples believed in him.

Douay-Rheims Bible
This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee; and manifested his glory, and his disciples believed in him

Webster's Bible Translation
This beginning of miracles Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him.

Weymouth New Testament
This, the first of His miracles, Jesus performed at Cana in Galilee, and thus displayed His glorious power; and His disciples believed in Him.

Besides are you bold enough to tell us which bible or bibles translations that you use?

I'll await your response.

When some want to find fault, they need to dig false or manipulated stories of people that existed when my father was not even born. I ju ba for una. If you cant present facts using the scriptures that counters someones beliefs, why present stories of the past, the answer is that you are just desperate to make them look bad!

I tell me you what I believe now, you want to counter it with what others who lived before I was born believed. I tell you what I do now, but you want talk about what some people who died before I was born did.

You say their believes where wrong, I say my believes are different, yet you are angry with me for adjusting the believes you claim where wrong.
If you believe my present beliefs are wrong,why can't you bring up facts to counter what I believe in.

Jusmudi:
.

Bros free style. D dude is very correct. Dn't add anything to d bible oooo, dey just told us d role mary played.. Just accept it dt way.. Is nt novel dt u ll try to criticise because dis is word of GOD.

if you had not jumped in, you would have known the discussion is not based on doctrine, or meant to pass on any spiritual message, we where just discussing on our personal view of why Mary could have such authority at the wedding. my views should not be taken as a true ocurrence of events . my explanations has in no way What so ever denied or criticised the role Mary played at the wedding!, in fact it supports it!

If u can''t understand meet sm1 dt can put u 2ru

if I can't understand what? what scripture have you presented to me on the issue of the wedding that I've posted something contrary to?

Ubenedictus:
that is ur own opinion not in d bible

Well that's my understanding of the scriptures.
can you give your understanding of these verse?
New International Version
john 2:11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
are you saying jesus had performed miracle(s) before these and Mary had seen he could perform miracles?

note my statement:

, let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

Jusmudi:
Bros my broda just gave U d verse wat do u want me to do

1. you did not state that the verse he quoted is the same as one I asked you to present
2. the content of that verse and what you said do not correspond !

Ubenedictus:
you are trying to lie with th bible.
The words are "do not make for yourself" not "do not make for urself witout my command" that is how people add things to the bible, "do not make for urself" is clear enough unles u have problem with comprehesion, it simply means do not make any image FOR yourself, ie do not make any image for ur own use, it is a blanket rule and there is nothing about "without my command there" the passage doesnt say that whether u read it in greek or hebrew or english.

I believe that you just want to accuse me of something that's why you said this. pls read my post again , I did not twist the scriptures, I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.
1. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where approved by jehovah for religious purpose.
2. The scriptures shows that the isrealites made images that where not approved by jehovah.
3. All the images approved by jehovah had a prior command approving it's construction
4. All the images not aproved by jehovah did not have a prior command.
5. There fore "do not make for yourself" could not mean "do not make for yourself any image at all" Since there is evidence to show that they did made images(for there own use) that has gods approval.
6. looking at the images God approved and disproved , we can conclude that "do not make for yourselves" mean "do not make for yourself any image without prior approval or command" as all image maDe without this where rejected by jehovah.

u said every image had detailed command for it given by God, please show me where God gave the directive for the above image! The passage above tell us that they were made, now show me d scripture that says God gave a detail directive for them. For ur info d above images werent hidden.

1Ch 28:6“He said to me, ‘Your son Solʹo·mon is the one who will build my house and my courtyards, for I have chosen him as my son and I will become his father.
(you can also read 1 sam 7:13)

as you can see from the above scriptures, Jehovah specified who will construct the house, like all other images,e.g the ark, Jehovah mentioned the person who will do or oversee the construction. The scriptures let us know that David, a loyal servant of jehovah had a lot of things ready so as to start the construction, but he obeyed jehovah.

]1Ch 28:10- 19: See, now, for Jehovah has chosen you to build a house as a sanctuary. Be courageous and go to work.”
11. David then gave to his son Solʹo·mon the architectural plan of the porch and of its houses, its storerooms, its roof chambers, its inner rooms, and the house of the propitiatory cover.
12. He gave him the architectural plan of everything that had been conveyed to him through inspiration for the courtyards of Jehovah’s house, for all the dining rooms around it, for the treasuries of the house of the true God, and for the treasuries of the things made holy;
13 .also for the divisions of the priests and of the Levites, for all the duties of the service of Jehovah’s house, and for all the utensils of the service of Jehovah’s house;
14. also for the weight of the gold, the gold for all the utensils for the different services, the weight of all the utensils of silver, and for all the utensils for the different services;
15. also the weight for the gold lampstands and their gold lamps, the weight of the different lampstands and their lamps, and the weight of the silver lampstands, for each lampstand and its lamps according to its use;
16. also the weight of the gold for the tables of the layer bread, for each table, as well as the silver for the tables of silver,
17. for the forks, the bowls, the pitchers of pure gold, and the weight of the small gold bowls, for each small bowl, and the weight of the small silver bowls, for each small bowl.
18. he also gave the weight for the refined gold for the incense altar and for the representation of the chariot, namely, the cherubs of gold that spread their wings out and overshadow the ark of the covenant of Jehovah.
19. David said: “The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he gave me insight to put all the details of the architectural plan in writing.”

1Ki 6:1,11,12: In the 480th year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year after Solʹo·mon became king over Israel, in the month of Ziv (that is, the second month), he began to build the house of Jehovah.
11. Meanwhile, the word of Jehovah came to Solʹo·mon, saying:
12“As for this house that you are building, if you walk in my statutes and carry out my judgments and observe all my commandments by walking in them, I will also carry out with you my promise that I made to David your father,

2Ch 4:19,20,22: Solʹo·mon made all the utensils for the house of the true God: the altar of gold; the tables with the showbread on them;
20. the lampstands and their lamps of pure gold, to burn before the innermost room according to the requirements;
22. the extinguishers, the bowls, the cups, and the fire holders, of pure gold; and the entrance of the house, its inner doors for the Most Holy, and the doors of the house of the temple, of gold.

1Ki 6:38and in the 11th year, in the month of Bul (that is, the eighth month), the house was finished in all its details and according to its plan. So he spent seven years building it.

Ubene,pls tell if any of my following points is or are false.
1.the scriptures tell us that God commanded that Solomon built the temple, and the scriptures tell us that Solomon built temple.
2.The scriptures tell that the details of these temple construction where given to david by inspiration, I'll leave to speculate where the inspiration came from.
3. The scriptures tell us that David recorded the inspiration " in written".
4. The scriptures tells us that David gave the details of the temple construction to solomon(the only he was inspired to right down.
5. The scriptures tells you that Solomon constructed the temple according to its requirements/ details/ plans.
6. The scriptures tells you that this temple, inclusive of all the images in it met God's approval, which was even physically manifest.

you see all these in these scriptures , yet you are asking where and when the directives was given to make the images.
Your aim is to find fault with images made by Solomon, so as to find similarity with the images of Jesus made today. but the scriptures has shown that the image in the temple follow the construction of other images.
1. The command for the construction of the ark, copper snake and image in temple is given by God and recorded.
2. the person who is to carry out that command to construct, the ark, snake and images in temple are given and recorded.
3. The approval of God to those images was shown physically. God showed his presence in the ark and temple, and the copper snake served it's purpose.

The construction of the images of Jesus today does not follow or have anything in comMon with these points above.
Ubene, the scriptures are there for a protection, to protect us from people who make false images of Jesus!

where is d directive given for that particular image? U claim all images were from divine directive, where did God command that the above image be made.

when God has shown you he approved of the construction of the temple,you are asking about a particular image, when solomon had given you the details, you now want to claim it's not part of the details given to him by David.
Some of these scriptures will help your research sha.
ex 26:1
ex 27:9
2 chr 5:7
eze 41:24, 25
heb 8:5

as to the issue of the images being hidden. you did not qoute what I said. I stated that less than 1% of the isrealites could see these images, in an essence they(the images) where hidden from them.
check the location of each image, and then check if the isrealites can easily enter their or not.
tion

2Ch 5:8Thus the wings of the cherubs were spread out over the place of the Ark, so that the cherubs covered over the Ark and its poles from above.
2Ch 5:9The poles were so long that the tips of the poles were visible from the Holy in front of the innermost room, but they were not visible from outside. And they are there to this day.

have u lost ur bible?

Bro , if you dnt want to quote the scripture pls let us know.

Ubenedictus:
you can xplain how they dont correspond.

simple, what jusmudi said is different from the scriptures you quoted. you can quote what he said and quote the scripture you gave and compare the two, they are not saying the same thing!

Nairaland111:
what is family ? Do u know we ar xam family because we are serving xam God? Do u know we ar family because we ar in xam blog? So do u know we ar family because we ar 4rn xam tribe or state or country D relationship I ll agree is dt dey maybe jews which d gentiles ll nt agree to attend because of discrimination, so wat relationship ar u talkin abt?? my Bros 4get dis argument because I Dn't c ur stand

pls go to a fellow nairalander's wedding , or even go to your church member's wedding and start giving commands, na their you go know say una no be family.

Ubenedictus:
hahaha

dolphinheart says "they did not venerate the ark"

the bible says "joshua...prostrated himself before the ark"

who is lying, you accuse catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated befor an image.

Have a good day trying to explain how u are contradicting scriptures.

just qoute those verses and we will examine.

Ubenedictus:
john 3:14

I would have preffered if jusmudi provided the scriptures himself, cus what he said and the scripture you provided do not correspond.

Ubenedictus:
hahahb, do not make for urself simply means "do not make for your own use", it has nothing to do with whether a thing was commanded or not, stop spilting hairs.

No Bro, "do not make for yourself" means "do not make for yourself" . its like saying " let me determine, how when and what images you should make, and who should make it, dnt make this decision by yourself". All the images made for religious purpose then followed this discription. No image was made without command!, so in essence " do not make for yourself any image without my command!
As explained earlier,
1. no image was made without jehovahs directive.
2. No image was made by anyone but the person jehovah directed to make it.
3. No extra image was made for religous purpose anywhere else.
4. The details where given
5. The details where recorded.
6. The images where not kept in the open.

Images used for religous purposes today do not follow the examples and instructions layed down before now.

Since u claim every temple image was given in well detailed instruction, please show me the detail instruction 4 d great winged creature in 1kg 6:32,

1 ki 6:32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and
palm trees and open flowers,
and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.
Ube, this is detailed enough!

As to the great winged creature, you would not have known that the creatures wings are great, or the materials used to make them if details where not given. Read 1 kings chapter 6.

wat about d images of trees we find in 1 kgs 7:41,42

Pls quote the verses for us to see!

Ubenedictus:
who told u neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform a miracle? Dat isnt in my bible oh!

Bro, I did not say "neither mary Or anyone had seen jesus perform a miracle" , let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

analice107:
So you want to build a doctrine on probability? You will ignore clear commands and go with probability.

The disscussion about the wedding is not a doctrine, we are just sharing personal opinions

Jusmudi:
I bow my head in respect nd speak ntnin bt truth.,... My Bros do u remember when Jesus said in book of john , just as d copper snake is lifted up so ll d son of man b lifted up dt any1 wu look @him ll b saved.. So my Bros Jesus is sayin d use of symbols by using d cross 2 illustrate his death on d cross nd 2day we hv cross either @home or church or even ur pastor use to bless u in d church by sayin ''''' I bless in d name of father, son, nd d holy spirit '''''' which is also d cross. So U c dt d use of symbols or images ar nt only done by catholics bt everybody.. Which even our Lord Jesus illustrated

Can you direct me to where that is written in the book of john?

Jusmudi:
Nd u ll agree wit me dt anybody dt is invited ar nt mere invitees. For u 2 b invited makes U special

It was the person I replied that used the words " mere invitees" .
Inviting someone to a wedding does not make someone special. The person is already special, that's why he or she is invited.

Buy mary's invitation is different, she is probably family to the couple for her to have such influence.
Someone who you invited to your wedding, who is not part of the organizing committee cannot be giving your ushers command na. Unless that person has the authority due to his or her closeness to the couple . Likewise you can't go a wedding you are invited to and tell the ushers to go and fetch water. But you can do so if you are related or very close to those doing the wedding.


On the issue of the organizers asking mary to ask jesus. This I dnt believe, mary would probably have noticed herself and gone to meet jesus. If the organizers have asked mary, the head would have been aware and would not have made the statement he made when he tasted the wine later.

Jusmudi:
[quote author=dolphinheart post=4406


Bros i marry my hands 4 u. Bt on d oda hand, GOD gave us fOOD bt did he mention EbA? Since God has permitted d use of images, Hw do U still want God to repeat xam word by sayin ''' go nd hv d image of Mary nd JESUS''' ?? Bros its sounds 4ni u know.................... Bt i must commend ur effort in trying 2 learn.................... Kudos to u

I believe you read my post, we are talking about using image for religious purpose ,you eba theory does not count.
For if it counts , the isrealites would have brought any animal to the temple to be sacrificed, instead of bringing the ones God specified. Anyone could have done the sacrifice , instead of a levite.

Those who made the images, having received directives from God, did not continue to make different other images. They did not even make a replica of the image they where directed by God to do for religious purpose, they did as God as directed them to do and stopped immediately after they completed their work.

Because God had commanded a copper serpent to be made does not mean Solomon could do it too.
This was done to protect us from all these false image of one long haired jesus and mary that is everywhere today. Anyone who makes any image for religious purpose must show proof that he is divinely ordained to do such image. It must be recorded with the details stated their.

If one who makes such image does not do so. He is same as a person who makes the image of any man, and calls it the image of jesus. God had not given the command for the image of jesus to be made, therefore " do not make for yourself any graven image" calling it jesus for religious purpose .

Jusmudi:
Sir no mara ur relationship wit sm1, he or she must invite u. Bros sorry 2 say dt base on dis ur point, ur argument lacks base

My explanation did not mean they where not invited, its to show you they where not mere invitees.

Jusmudi:
Oga if God commanded dem 2 mak images like ark of d covenant, d copper snake etc, he did nt nd ll nt 4bid d use of images bt he ll nt b api if pipo worship dos images. It bcoms an insult 2 God.................... If God does nt allow d use of images dt means we hvin d picture of our love ones,@home is nw a sin

Bro, God did not forbid the use of images, king Solomon had images in his house na. God did not forbid the use of images for religious purposes, as there are images in the temple. what God forbids is the use or creation of images by oneself for any religious purpose. All images used for religious purpose must come from God.
God did not say "do not make images", he said, " do not make for yourselves".
God has been specific on these, the maker, the purpose, the structure and the location have been specified by God prior to the making of such images for religious purpose.
If someone else makes it, Who is not the same person as the person God said should make it, God will not accept it. If the person who God said should make it, makes it, but does not follow gods direct instruction on its details, God will not accept it. so you can see how strict these issue is.

For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God had it recorded and preserved.

to now even protect the people from wrong use of these images, God had them placed in a location where less than 1% of the isrealites could see it.

It is wrong to say that since God approved that images could be made for religious purpose then, one can also do so now. even those who God gave command to make images did not make any other image apart from the one God commanded.

so it is important that those who make the image of Mary and Jesus for religious purpose must first tell
1. who gave them the command to do so
2. details about the command
3. who the command was given to(who was told to make the image)
4. and why it's put in a public place instead of somewhere private.

If this can't be provided, then the image is false, and you have no right to blame someone who makes an image of Jesus and put two horns on his head, or an image of Mary with very big nose.

Peritus:
No sir. They were mere invitees just like others. It has nothing to do with their family. Remember, this wedding took place in Cana (Galilee). There was no obligation on them to provide wine or take care of entertainments. Mary knew who Christ was, right from conception. Note that Jesus asked her if she did not know that his time hasn't come. Meaning that she ought to have known.

you are right to a very large extent,but I personally feel that they are more than just invitees these are my reasons.
1. The influence Mary and Jesus had at the wedding. Mary told them to do whatever jesus commands, and Jesus told the servants at the wedding to fill large jars with water. These commands would not have been possible without influence, mere invited guests cannot do that.
2. second personal reason is that I believe Jesus went to the wedding with his family members, both mother and brothers, such kind of invitation can only occur if those getting married are family(extended) to jesus' family, or if they are friends to jesus family.

taking those two into account ,adding jesus age and the probability of being the head of his family, I think I'm right to say that Mary went to jesus, not for a miracle, but for something to be done about the wine situation.

yes, mary knew who Jesus is from birth, but she was not aware of the fact that Jesus could perform miracles. she did not tell jesus what to do, but she just informed jesus that there is no more wine, and as head of the family, he should do something about it.
Even when Jesus answered her, her next statement shows she did not know how jesus will handle the situation, unless you want to say she is aware of the process by which the miracle will be performed, and that she wanted jesus to turn water into wine.

Jusmudi:
Bros read am again na

sir, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intervene

Peritus:
First, the wedding organizers did not ask her to intercede, instead she spoke to the son on her own and asked the stewards to do whatever the son says. This is because, she knew that only her son has the power to pass instructions. This is inline with what God said during transfiguration, "this is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. LISTEN TO HIM". Christ has already passed the instructions on how to worship God in spirit and truth. All we have to do is "listen to him" without adding our own.
See, I love Mary so much, but I can't misplace her position. Until we understand that Christ lives in us and listens to our heart beats, we may not get to know how ready he is to listen to us.

I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

BLINGZ88:
the same reason the wedding organisers asked her to interces on their behalf ( new testament)

that is not true!

truthman2013:
Hahaha you just won it..

when someone has nothing to say, na to dey post pictures remain

Now, as to the explanation of the other verse;
Eccl 12v7 -Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
That is very true. After death, every spirit returns to God who gave it -for judgment. Now, whether they will be sent to heaven or be cast intto hell after judgment is another issue.
Scriptures says;
Hebrews 9v27 -And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
After death, the next thing is judgment. When someone dies, his spirit returns to God for judgment; they will be judged relative to their right-standing with God.

yes you are right, it is said that the spirit returns to God , but the scriptures never said it's for judgement!. that is an addition by you. Secondly, that judgement comes after death is correct, but the scriptures never said it's your spirit that will be judged!
There is no verse that says the spirit in man will be judged and later sent to heaven or hell.
eccle 12:7 states that at death the person’s body returns to the dust, “and the spirit itself returns to the true God who gave it.” The person himself was never in heaven with God; what “returns” to God is therefore the vital force that enabled the person to lIve!.

I'll like to ask you, if you believe that the spirit is judged immediately after death, and then sent to hell or heaven, does this mean that the boy that Elijah raised was in heaven or hell before he was raised back to life? same with the issue of Lazarus.?

This explanation of yours also contradicts the issue of Lazarus, cus Lazarus was in hell with the rich man! , and not in heaven. so to believe this is to believe that Lazarus spirit went to hell after judgement! , I'll await your response to this.
Also can you add this scriptures when you respond?(This is in relation to the spirit in animals)
1.gen 6:17; 7:15,22
eccle 3:18-22
18. I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.[/b]So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. [b]All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust. Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth? And I saw that there is nothing better than for a man to find enjoyment in his work, because that is his reward; for who can enable him to see what will happen after he is gone?

It is obviously clear that some are sent to hell after judgment, just as the story of the rich man and Lazarus made very clear.
The rich man's soul ended up in hell.
Luke 16v22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; AND IN HELL he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
So, that every spirit returns to God after death for judgment is true (according to Eccl 12v7 and Hebrews 9v27); and that some souls are sent into hell after judgment is also true (according to Luke 16v23).
The word of God is one, they don't contradict eachother. When two scriptures em contradictory, it is because we are yet to find the adjoining scripture that reconciles the two verse.

1. that the spirit is being judged is by your word, not by the scriptures
2. that spirits goes to hell is also by your words ,the scriptures never said so.
joining judgement and spirit goes to God to say spirits that go to God are judged is wrong bro.
unless you want agree that Lazarus has been judged and sent to hell!
This also goes contrary to jesus words that no one has been to heaven!

pls can you tell , when God puts one spirit and soul in him, at conception or at birth? cus this your judgement of spirit makes it look like each ones spirit is different from the other. But the scriptures say they are the same. when even talking about more than one person it says "spirit" and not "spirits".

note:

*sorry, had to cut this part of cus post is too long.

taking the parable literally will contradict what the scriptures says about what happens to man when he dies.

sorry for squeezing the words together.

I will merge the two posts together and tell you my views, there will be some questions in between which if you want to , you can answer . I'll be stating my views on the scriptures you quoted and the one I will add.

ayoku777:
Haba, the scriptures are self-explanatory na.
2Cor 5v8 -We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and to be present with the Lord.
When he says "to be absent from the body", which part of him gets absent from the body at death to be present with the Lord? His ears and nose? Ofcourse it is his soul and spirit.

We all know man is spirit, soul and body.
1Thess 5v23 -...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 cor 5:8 does not tell us what will be absent from the body, that is very clear. Moreover, I do not believe that is the soul and spirit that will be absent from the body(referring to Pauls statement)

to explain my view ill have to quote some verses before verse 8
2 cor 5: 1-8:
1. For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be torn down, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens.
2.For in this house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven,
3. so that when we do put it on, we will not be found naked.
4. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down, because we do not want to put this one off, but we want to put the other on, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5.Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.
6. So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord,
7.for we are walking by faith, not by sight.
8.But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord.

in this verses, Paul was talking about his present human body, and the body he desires, in which he was promised. This body will be theirs in heaven.
Paul was not talking about death perse, but was talking about a transformation of his body from the one he has to the one God gives him, from a mortal body to an immortal one, from a physical body to a spirit body. verse 8 is part of Pauls statement which had started from verse one , he was expressing his earnest desire to take up heavenly life, Paul showed that it was not death itself that was wanted by spirit-begotten Christians, nor to lie “naked” in death, but the ‘putting on’ of a heavenly body in order to be at “home with the Lord.
So being absent from this body means you have another body, not that your soul and spirit have left your body.
There are other scriptures that surpport my views which I'll post below.
2Pe 1:13, 14:But I consider it right, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you with reminders,
14knowing as I do that my tabernacle is soon to be removed, just as also our Lord Jesus Christ made clear to me.
1Co 15:50But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Php 3:20, 21But our citizenship exists in the heavens, and we are eagerly waiting for a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ,
21[u]who will transform our humble body to be like his glorious body[/u] by his great power that enables him to subject all things to himself.
Ro 6:5If we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united with him in the likeness of his resurrection.
Ro 8:23Not only that, but we ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely, the spirit, yes, we ourselves groan within ourselves while we are earnestly waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.
1Co 15:48, 49Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly.
49And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.
So Paul was talking about his desire for his body to be transformed(this must occur through death anyway)

And Jesus also said it that it is only the body that dies or can be killed by man, and that the soul stays alive and can only be sent to the lake of fire.
Matthew 10v28 -And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

your explanation goes contrary to the scripture you quoted. first the verse did not say lake of fire, some Translations translate it as hell(which is wrong anyway,we can discuss this if you want to)while some say "gehenna".
also jesus did not say the soul cannot be killed, he was stating that it cannot be killed by some.
luke 12:4,5 helps us to understand this better

Lu 12:4Moreover, I say to you, my friends, do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more
Lu 12:5But I will show you whom to fear: Fear the One who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·henʹna. Yes, I tell you, fear this One.

you also removed part of what jesus said will go to gehenna, Jesus said "body and soul" can be destroyed in gehenna , he did not state that only soul is kept alive and only soul goes there.
therfore , in a more literal sense, the soul and the body goes to the same place!. now you need to give us further explanation.
Now does the soul stay alive after death? I'll get to that soon.

Its clear the soul stays alive even after the body is killed, so when Paul talks about departing from the body after death, it can only be the soul -the part of man that stays alive after the body is killed.
And this verse confirms it fully that it is the soul that indeed departs from the body after death.
1Kings 17v21 -And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this CHILD'S SOUL come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and THE SOUL OF THE CHILD came into him again, and he revived.
Can you see? The boy's soul departed from his body after death. Is this proof enough now?

to tell you my view on these, one would first need to clear some issues on what the soul is.
I do not believe the soul leaves the body after death for another place, or that the soul goes somewhere separate from where the body goes.
when we read 1king 17:21, we will find out that different translations did not use the word "soul" in those verses, they said "life". This other translations throws out your explanation that the soul departed the body and the prophet prayed for it to be brought back into him.
Before you say these translations are wrong, i did a quick check and found out that the kjv translated this same hebrew word that is translated as "soul" in 1Ki 17:23 as "life" in gen1:30.
therefore, those other translations are correct!. The only conclusion I can now derive from these is that the soul that came back into the boy is the life of that boy. so the boy was given life, not that a seperate entity that departed earlier now came back.
These explanation goes along with other occurrence of the Hebrew word "nephesh"

at this junction I need to now ask you, since you say souls are alive after death, and they go somewhere, where are the souls of animals that are dead? (gen 1:20- 24)

And for your other question. Soul and Spirit, most times are used interchangeably in the new testament, because they never get separated even after the death of the body. They are inseparable even though the two are distinct.

Bro, soul and spirit are never used interchangeably, they have different meaning. even we are not allowed to change them. If I'm wrong, pls supply scripture in which they are used interchangeably.

The spirit controls the life of the person and the soul controls the consciousness of the person. And where one is the other is, even after death.

this statement does not have scripture to surpport it.
using scientific, physical and Scriptural views, I believe our consciousness is our body, it is not seperated from the functions of our brain(which is part of our body). In short it's our body that determines our consciousness.
These explanation above goes along with the scriptures where God described how he made man, and how man came to be a living soul.
Ge 2:7And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living person(or soul).
look at the verse again, man was made from dust, man was not living until the breathe of life came into him, after the spirit entered him, man became a living soul.
to tell us what man really is , God told adam(the man):
Ge 3:19In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until YOU return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

examining what God told adam, this facts comes out.
1. The "you"in that verse is talking about the person, his consciousness.
2. The "you" will return to the dust.
3. The you is from the dust, the "you" is dust.
therefore, our consciousnness is part of our body. This consciousness become active when the spirit activates the body. If the spirit departs/leaves the man, the man becomes unconscious and knows nothing as the bible tells us, cus his body is no longer functioning as a living soul.

A question to you, where do you thing Adam went to when he died, to heaven, to hell, or to the ground as stated by his Creator?

It was both the soul and spirit of Jesus that went to sheol after He died on the cross.
Acts 2v27 - Because thou wilt not leave MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1Peter 3v18 -18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by THE SPIRIT: 19 BY WHICH ALSO HE WENT and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Both His soul and spirit departed into sheol after He died on the cross until His resurrection.
The spirit and the soul are distinct, but they depart the body together after death to heaven or hell.
All these verses are very self-explanatory. If they look confusing, its because you want them to mean something else other than the obvious.
Shalom!

Bro, Jesus, Jesus and the scriptures both tell us the body goes to hell, why dnt you add that to the case of Jesus going to hell.?
it is quite evident that soul goes to hell(I'm using the word hell for now so as not to create confusion), the issue now is if it's just soul and spirit, minus body, or if it's just soul alone.
The scriptures never said that the spirit goes to hell. Jesus, before he died said " into your hands I entrust my spirit.
examining 1 peter 3:18,19 further, we can see that it did not say that Jesus went to hell to preach/give proclamation to the spirits, it says that jesus went to preach/ give proclamation to those in prison!. that Jesus could go there means that jesus was not there after he died.
This event also occured after he was ressurected or raised.
Peter said he died in the body, but was raised as a spirit.(The kind of ressurection that those with heavinly hope , hope for.)
so when Jesus went to sheol, he did so in acordance with what the scriptures says will happen when one goes there. After he was ressurected , he now went to meet the spirits in prison, now having all authority to do so.
Peter 3: 18-20: For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit.
19[b] After being made alive,[/b]he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water.
Jesus does not need to be made alive in hell, cus according to you, his soul and spirit are alive!, therefore peter was talking about his resurrection.

the question to you now is, why did Jesus go to preach to the spirits you claim to be in hell, remember, you later said judgement has been passed on these spirits before going to hell?

ayoku777:
You didn't really digress. These are inclusive points in what we've been discussing.
Psalm 146v4 - His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
This verse is straight forward. It said when the spirit of a man leaves, he returns to the earth.
It is clear from the context of this verse that the "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the body of the man that was from the dust, not the man's soul or spirit.

no sir, "he" that "returneth to his earth" is the man himself!. These shows that the body is "he". "he" is the man, and where it is said that "he " goes is clearly where the man, his consciousness, physical attributes and feelings will go!. For as his body perishes, likewise is thoughts or conciousness.
as explained earlier, from accounts of the creation of the first man, we learnt that the soul is not a seperate entity in man, but rather man is a soul!(A living being) living or alive if the spirit is active in the body and dead if the spirit goes out of the body.
so Psalms is telling us that when man dies, his spirit leaves him, and he(ill use the word dead soul here) goes to sheol. and in sheol, he is inactive!

These verses establish that claim;
Eccl 12v7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
And these;
Genesis 3v19 -In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

those verses clearly shows us that man is dust, and man returns to dust when man dies, therefore man is the body that turns to dust.
It did not state that part of man (the body) turns to dust. therefore from all these verses together, inclusive of the account of the creation of man, we know that man is a combination of spirit and body, which makes man become a living soul!
man will not become dust as long as the Spirit is active in him.!

So the part of man that returns to dust or to the earth is the part of man that was taken from dust -his human body.
So the verse actually interpretes;
Psalm 146v4 - His breath (or spirit) goeth forth (leaves), he (the body) returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. - (words in bracket mine)

the scriptures never said so bro, it never said or implied that part of man turns to dust after the spirit has left. The "he" There is in reference to the man himself. notice that you made no remark to his thoughts, which perishes. That part of the verse would have shown you that he is no longer conscious when he returned to the dust.
Ps 104:29When you hide your face, they are disturbed. If you take away their spirit, they die and return to the dust.
job 34:14,15: If it were his intention and he withdrew his spirit a and breath,
15 all humanity would perish together and mankind would return to the dust.
the scriptures are plain on what turns to dust, it says man!, and not part of man!

* had to cut it here cus nairaland keep saying" post too long. It continues in the next post

@ ayoku777. pls no vex for me, ill reply you later today hopefully