₦airaland Forum

IsaacBuchi:
JMAN05, dolphinheart

Nothing to say here Bro, until she gives details(not copied details o) .
Most people hailing her sef do not support some of her views and cannot answer her questions . She wants a God that will leave you to do ur will.
Reminds me of eve!

Got some nice games from charlyG1 . Nice one Bro. for anyone living in lagos, u can get in touch with him

moski5:
its 5books find the remaining 4

Was interested so I checked it out , its actually going to be 7 books, but I think only 5 are available now , gonna try and read em all.

Ayomivic:
i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

This is my answer to question 5

You stated :
5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.




We dnt need to go deep into this verse(in relation to if "jesus is God" . Pls do a research on if the word "God" is present in the sentence " God was manifested in the flesh " in 1 Tim 3:16 . Pls do so and reply

Answer to question 6 is next

Teekrayne:
........... So sorry jare bro... I have been very busy.... U can ask me any question. For now I have no question

1. What is ur view on appstacy
2. Do you support these hadiths below as true:

Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three
cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits
illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."
— Sahih al-Bukhari,
9:83:17

Alli burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish
(anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a
Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'
— Sahih al-Bukhari,
4:52:260

A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa
replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle.
— Sahih al-Bukhari,
9:89:271

Ayomivic:
i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

(4) this is my answer on question 4

You asked :
(4.) philipian 2 5-7:
Let this mind be in you, which
was also in Christ Jesus : who
being in form of God,thought it
not robbery to be equal with
God: but made himself of no
reputation and took upon him
the form of a servant, and was
made in likeness of men"



Philippians 2:3-8;
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
"Do nothing fromselfishness or conceit, but in humility count others better than yourselves. Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the
interests of others. Have this mind among yourselves,
which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.

NET
"who though he existed
in the form of God ,did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,"


NAB
Who, though he was in the
form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied
himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human
likeness; and found human in
appearance,,

NASB
" who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard
equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the
likeness of men. "


Sourced( "He did not think to snatch at [harpagmos, ἁρπαγμὸς ] equality with God"[1] - NEB.

"He did not think that by force
[harpagmos] he should try to
become equal with God" - TEV
(and GNB).))

KJ reads: “Let this mind be in
you, which was also in Christ
Jesus: Who, being in the form
of God, thought it not robbery
to be equal with God.”




Which thought agrees with
the context? Verse 5 counsels Christians to imitate Christ in the matter here being discussed. Could they be urged to consider it “not robbery,” but their right, “to be
equal with God”? Surely not!
However, they can imitate
one who “ did not regard
equality with God a thing to be grasped/siezed," namely, that he should be equal to God.”

Such translations also agrees with Jesus Christ himself, who said: “The Father is greater than I.”— John 14:28.


The Expositor’s Greek
Testament says: “We cannot
find any passage where
[har·paʹzo] or any of its
derivatives [including har·pag·monʹ] has the sense
of ‘holding in possession,’
‘retaining’. It seems invariably
to mean ‘seize,’ ‘snatch
violently’. Thus it is not
permissible to glide from the
true sense ‘grasp at’ into one
which is totally different, ‘hold
fast.’”—(Grand Rapids, Mich.;
1967), edited by W. Robertson Nicoll, Vol. III, pp. 436, 437.

Think about what Satan told eve .
Some people say jesus has two natures, but the bible said he emptied himself from one and took another . To find himself(note that word ) in the form of man .

Will answer question 5 next

Hello guys, I was in this group a while ago , ppsspp,ds3 and tweaks. I have not been active, maybe that's why I was delected.

Not been active for 3 reasons
1. My tab is not rooted
2. My watsapp hangs like crazy
3. My tab rejects, corrupts my sd card .

So I was not able to get ppsspp games . But I've fixed the sd card issue now and i need those games, can i come back into the group or any new group available ? My number is

@teekrayne , no more questions?

Ayomivic:
i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

(3).
This is ur question 3 :
John 8:58 :Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM
Why would Jesus says this? Is
it true Jesus was before
Abraham? If yes how? If No
explain?

Jesus did exist as a spirit creature before abraham was born. Even angels existed before abraham.

Let's look at the context .

John 8:56-58. :
"56 Your father Abraham
rejoiced that he would see my
day. He saw it and was glad.”
57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” ( you can see here that jesus response in verse 58 is on age and not on deity)
58 Jesus said to them, “Truly,
truly, I say to you, before
Abraham was, I am.”

Some translations say " before abraham was born" to emphasis that the issue is on age.

Did "I am " in verse 58 signify that jesus is God . Absolutely no , to follow that view one has to proof that jesus is the father , that jesus is also jehovah.
If "I am " signifies "jesus is God" . Then you have to accept that asahel is also God below.

King James Bible
Then Abner looked behind him, and said, Art thou Asahel? And he answered, I am. - 2 Sam 2:20


The "I am" there in john means that jesus is simply telling then that he existed before abraham . Not all translations use "I am" , some use " I have been" and "I exist .

KJV (1611) RV, RSV, NRSV,
ESV, NIV: "Before Abraham
was, I am."


ASV, NASB (1995): "before
Abraham was born, I am."
"...I have been"

However in John 8:58 a few
Bibles have renderings of eimi
in past tenses:
The United Bible Societies
Hebrew New Testament has
ani hayiti "I was" not ani hu "I
am".

George R. Noyes, Unitarian -
The New Testament (Boston,
1871). “Before Abraham was
born I was already what I am”
and (in the 1904 edition) “I was”

The Twentieth Century New
Testament (TCNT) supervised
by J. Rendel Harris and
Richard Francis Weymouth
(Britain, 1900). “I have existed
before Abraham was born”

James Moffatt, The Bible A
New Translation (New York,
1935). “I am here – and I was
before Abraham!”

J. M. P. Smith and E. J.
Goodspeed An American
Translation (1935) "I existed
before Abraham was born!"

The New World Translation
(1950, 1984) "before Abraham
came to be, I have been."“From
before Abraham was, I have
been”

J. A. Kleist S.J. and J. L. Lilly
C.M., Roman Catholic - The
New Testament (Milwaukee,
1956). “I was before Abraham”

William F. Beck, Lutheran -
The New Testament in the
Language of Today (St. Louis,
1963). “I was in existence
before Abraham was ever born”

Kenneth N. Taylor, The Living
Bible (Wheaton, 1979). “I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”

The poet Richard Lattimore,
The Four Gospels and the
Revelation (New York, 1979). “I
existed before Abraham was
born”

ed. Stanley L. Morris, The
Simple English Bible (1981) "I
was alive before Abraham was
born"

Check this webpage for further info :

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_eimi

My answer to question 4 will follow shortly

Ayomivic:
Ha ha! You sould'nt have stop there. It seem you have known the truth but you don't want to concede defeat.

Why do you have to jump that short, straightfowrd and simple question No 3(John8:58) and go for question No 6 (Titus 2-13) is that a way of covering the fact? That was how you did to John 1-14 ,you said to avoid long post, until now you have'nt answer it.

I want to see how you will answer those remaining questions. Let me list them for you.

1. John 1-14
2. John 8:58
3. Philipians 2:5-7
4. 1 Timothy 3:16
5. Hebrews 1:8-9
6. 2 John 1:7
9. Revelation 1:8

pls, if you can answer all those verses, bro! I thing is better you come openly that you concur.No big deal in saying that.

Bro , I did not jump o, I said ill answer ur questions one by one . I've answered number one and two and my next post will start from number 3.

I have not jumped to question 6 , if you read my post well, you will see that my answers on question 2 is were I stopped on that , that you see me quoting titus does not mean I've jumped. The titus quote is still part of my answer to question 2.
I'm sorry for not posting for a while, but I will continue shortly, starting from question 3 . That you did not say anything on my answers on question 1 and 2 shows me you are in agreement with my reply .

@ jeromejnr
@ jozzy4
@ mizjanet
@ muttleylaff


My understanding of who man is , the spirit in man and what happens at death. (part 3)


I've qouted this verse in my previous post but will start this verse with it .

"Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man, in whom
there is no help.
His breath goes forth, he
returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." -ps 146:4

I've learnt from this verse that (a)mans thought perish when he dies, mans thoughts perish when the spirit leaves him.
(b) that man uses his flesh(his brain) to think , and thus when his brain no longer functions as the spirit not longer makes it active, the thoughts. If man siezes.

Do I have any scripture to surpport my initial view on this verse ? I will do so by telling my views of death and what it does to man (flesh).

" See, I have set before thee
this day life and good, and death and evil;
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,
that both thou and thy seed may live: - deut 30 : 15,19

This verse let's me know that just as evil is the opposite of good ,blessing is the opposite of cursing , death is also the direct opposite of life, the effect causes man to " return " to his state where he was before his creation .

the Scriptures quoted earlier has shown that death in humans and animals follows the loss of the spirit (active force) of life — Ge 6:17, 7:15, 22; Ec 3:19;.

Taken from a source:
(( It is of interest to note the
correspondency of these Biblical points with what is known scientifically of the death process. In humans, for
example, when the heart stops
beating, the blood ceases to
circulate nourishment and
oxygen (obtained by breathing) to the billions of body cells.
However, The World Book
Encyclopedia (1987, Vol. 5,
p. 52b) pointed out: “A person
whose heart and lungs stop
working may be considered
clinically dead, but somatic death may not yet have occurred. The individual cells of the body continue to live for several minutes. The person may be revived if the heart and lungs start working again and give the cells the oxygen they need. After about three minutes, the brain cells—which are most sensitive to a lack of oxygen—begin to die. The person is soon dead beyond any possibility of revival.
Gradually, other cells of the body also die. The last ones to perish are the bone, hair, and skin cells, which may continue to grow for several hours.” Thus while the vital importance of breathing and of the blood in maintaining the active life-force (ruʹach chai·yimʹ) in the body cells is evident, at the
same time it is also clear that it is not the cessation of breathing or of heartbeat alone but the disappearance of the life-force or spirit from the body cells that brings death as referred to in the Scriptures.— Ps 104:29; *quoted earlier.

Ps146:4; * quoted earlier

Ec 8:8.: There is no man that hath power over the spirit to retain the spirit; neither hath he power in the day of death: and there is no discharge in that war; neither shall wickedness deliver those that are given to it.))

Since we now know what death is we will briefly look at what caused death in man(flesh ). What caused the spirit to stop being active on the body.

Ge 3:19;* quoted earlier

Jas 1:14, 15: But every man is
tempted, when he is drawn
away of his own lust, and
enticed. 15 Then when lust
hath conceived, it bringeth
forth sin: and sin, when it is
finished, bringeth forth death.

Ro 5:12; Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death
passed upon all men, for that
all have sinned

Ro 6:23.; King James Bible
For the wages of sin is death;
but the gift of God is eternal lifethrough Jesus Christ our Lord.

Note That romans 6:23 says the wages of sin is death , you pay no more wages after you have died.

One might ask, how does Adams sin affect us. The truth is that adam lost his perfect body that is able to retain spirit as long as it is sustained. It is only that imperfect body the is slave to sin that he can pass to his offpring, thus we can say his offspring's inherited sin as stated in romans .
Alienated from God by sin,
mankind in general is said to be in “enslavement to corruption.” ( Ro 8:21) This
enslavement is due to the
workings of sin in their bodies,
bringing forth its corrupting fruit, and all persons not obedient to God are under the rule of sin as its slaves “with death in view.” (Ro 6:12, 16, 19-21)

So what Condition of Humans when they are dead.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."


"For the living know that
they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
- Ec 9:5, 10

This verses let us know that
(a)the dead know nothing.
(b)there is no planning or knowledge or wisdom for the dead.
(c) this I feel as true cus except our flesh is being acted upon by an external spirit force e.g the holy spirit , its our physical flesh(brain) that does all the thinking, all the seeing and reading (eyes) the feeling (skin) the tasting etc. As these occurs over time , it determines our knowledge, thoughts, wills and emotions(which is already partially determined by the flesh *hormones and enzymes).

Does the writer have any surpport from other writers of the scriptures?

"His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish"
-Ps 146:4)

My strength is dried up like a
potsherd; and my tongue
cleaveth to my jaws; and thou
hast brought me into the dust
of death. - Ps 22:15)

They are dead, they shall not
live; they are deceased, they
shall not rise: therefore hast
thou visited and destroyed
them, and made all their
memory to perish "
-Isa 26:14.

"For in death there is no
remembrance of thee: in the
grave who shall give thee
thanks"

"For there is no remembrance
of You in death; who can thank
You in Sheol?"-Ps 6:5

"For the dead cannot praise
you; they cannot raise their
voices in praise.
Those who go down to the
grave can no longer hope in your faithfulness.
Only the living can praise you
as I do today.
Each generation tells of your
faithfulness to the next.
-Isa 38:18, 19)


To conclude, the question is, is there hope for the dead to live again ?

both the Hebrew and the Greek
Scriptures, death is likened to
sleep, a fitting comparison not
only because of the unconscious condition of the dead but also because of the hope of an awakening through the resurrection. ( Ps 13:3; Joh
11:11-14) The resurrected Jesus is spoken of as “the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep in
death.”— 1Co 15:20, 21;

@ jeromejnr
@ jozzy4
@ mizjanet
@ muttleylaff


My understanding of who man is , the spirit in man and what happens at death. (part 2)

Now that I've shown my view on man being flesh , ill go into my view of what the spirit in man really is.

In surpport and continuation of what is recorded in genesis 2:7 we read this in job

"The Spirit of God hath made
me, and the breath of the
Almighty hath given me life" - job 33: 4

Now is that breathe of life/ spirit the man, Part of man or just a force that enables man to be alive and live . Let's look at the scriptures for answer.

If he should set his heart
to it and gather to himself his spirit and his breath, all flesh would perish together, and man would return to dust. - job 34:14,15

From this verse I learn that
(a) God can gather the spirit he have man back to himself if he wants to , hence ending the life of such man (a view that goes along with death)
(b) flesh/ man will perish if God does this .
(c) for a fact that it says man will perish means the spirit is not man but a force that makes him to stay alive, not perish , not return to dust.
(d) I noticed that the word "spirit" is used here , not "spirits " when it was talking about men (more than one person) do humans have the same spirit ? I.e the spirit or force in me is the same spirit or force in you?


"When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath, they die and return to the dust.
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the ground.


I learnt here that
(a) man/ animals / living things that has the breathe in it die and return to the dust.
(b) it did not say "part of man returns to the dust" or "flesh of man returns to the dust" it said "they" in reference to all living thing with breath return to the dust.
(c ) this verses goes along with the issue of man in genesis and ecclestiastis .
(d) this verses goes along with the view that man is "flesh" and not "spirit" or "spirit in flesh"
(e) I noticed again that the word "spirit" is used and not "spirits " . Do we all have one spirit operating in all of us?.


"Thus saith God the LORD, he
that created the heavens, and
stretched them out; he that
spread forth the earth, and that
which cometh out of it; he that
giveth breath unto the people
upon it, and spirit to them that
walk therein:" -isa 42:5

I learnt here that
(a) the breathe of life is more than just breathe.I it includes a force that enables us to live.
(b) The breath sustains man
existence, the spirit energizes and is the life-force that enables man to be an animated creature, to move, walk, be actively alive. This is further butressed when we read acts 17: 25,28 .
(c) I noticed again here that the word "spirit" is used instead of "spirits". Does this mean that it is the same spirit that God gave all mankind .


Taken from a source:
(((While nesha·mahʹ (breath) and ruʹach (spirit; active force; life- force) are sometimes used in a parallel sense, they are not
identical. True, the “spirit,” or
ruʹach, is at times spoken of as
though it were the respiration
(nesha·mahʹ) itself, but this
seems to be simply because
breathing is the prime visible
evidence of the life-force in one’s body.— Job 9:18; 19:17; 27:3. Thus at Ezekiel 37:1-10 the symbolic vision of the valley of dry bones is presented, the bones coming together, becoming covered with sinews, flesh, and skin, but “as regards breath [weruʹach], there was none in them.” Ezekiel was told to prophesy to “the wind[ha·ruʹach],” saying, “From the
four winds [form of ruʹach] come in, O wind, and blow upon these killed people, that they may come to life.” The reference to the four winds shows that wind is the appropriate rendering for
ruʹach in this case. However,
when such “wind,” which is
simply air in motion, entered the nostrils of the dead persons of the vision, it became “breath,” which is also air in motion. Thus, the rendering of ruʹach as “breath” at this point of the account ( vs 10) is also more appropriate than “spirit” or “life- force.” Ezekiel also would be able to see the bodies begin to breathe, even though he could
not see the life-force, or spirit,
energizing their bodies. As
verses 11-14 show, this vision
was symbolic of a spiritual (not
physical) revivification of the
people of Israel who were for a
time in a spiritually dead state
due to their Babylonian exile.
Since they were already
physically alive and breathing, it is logical to render ruʹach as
“spirit” in verse 14, where God
states that he will put ‘his spirit’ in his people so that they would become alive, spiritually
speaking.)))






" And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." - Gen 6:17


"And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.- Gen 7 :15:22


The verses above shows us that the breathe of life/ spirit is present in both man and animals.
The verses below surpport, butress and cormfirm the on above .

"I said to myself, “This happens concerning people, so that God may test them and they may see for themselves that they are like animals.” For the fate of people and the fate of animals is the same. As one dies, so dies the other; they all have the same breath. People have. no advantage over animals since everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place; all come from dust, and all return to dust.

"I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves [are] beasts.
For an event [is to] the sons of man, and an event [is to] the beasts, even one event [is] to them; as the death of this, so [is] the death of that; and one spirit [is] to all, and the advantage of man above the beast is nothing, for the whole [is] vanity. 20 The whole are going unto one place, the whole have been from the dust, and the whole are turning back unto the dust.- eccl 3:18-20


From this verses I learned that
(a) the spirit, breathe God gave man is same as that of animals (b) there is only one spirit in all men, ur spirit/life force is no different from mine. Hence the use of the word "spirit" and not "spirits " when using it in reference to all mankind.
(c) the bible has been consistent with the fact that man is dust, man is flesh ,cus flesh is dust.
(d) it is clear that now that the
“spirit,” or life-force or breathe of life is impersonal(it is not the man)

With all the verses above I'm able to learn that the spirit in man , same spirit in all men is not man, but a force that enables that man to live, to become animate , to function, to move, to become a soul . Man must sustain that spirit in the body or that spirit in the body will not sustain man .

This view is further supported by the scriptures below.

"Do not trust in princes, In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
His spirit departs, he returns to the earth ; In that very day his thoughts perish".

"Put not your trust in princes,
nor in the son of man, in whom
there is no help.
His breath goes forth, he
returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish." -ps 146:4

I've learnt from this verse that
(a) these writer supports all the other writers quoted so far .
(b) that all of them mentioned who or what man is in relation to his spirit
(c)that none of them ever related man to be "spirit " or "spirit in a flesh "
(d) that all the writers surpport the fact that man as a being returns to dust when he dies.
(e) that the spirit (not man), goes out (some went further to say "goes to God who gave it! (the "it" there signifies its inpersonal.)

Will continue in my next post .

@ jeromejnr
@ jozzy4
@ mizjanet
@ muttleylaff

My understanding of who man is , the spirit in man and what happens at death. (part 1)

The scriptures says these at the creation of adam, the first man.

"And the LORD God formed
man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils
the breath of life; and man
became a living soul." -Gen 2:7
From this verse above, I Learnt the following.
(a) that man is formed from the dust.
(b)the verse did not say man came into the body or God blew man into the body.
(c) that the spirit in man can be described as the breathe of life (d) that man was in existence before breathe came into him , though he did not have life.
(e) that god formed our flesh from dust.
(that that man was not giving a soul but became a soul.

Later , after judgement was passed on to the man cus he sinned, the process at which he came alive was reversed which showed to me that death is the opposite of life.

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.” - Gen 3: 19.

I learnt that
(a) man came from the dust and no where else .for that verse says "from it you "(the man, adam) "where taken".
(b) the verse did not say "part of you came from the dust" nor did it say " I remove you from that dust I formed".
(c) the verse re emphasised the " you" and "dust" again by stating " for dust you are " .this shows again that the "you"(man/adam) is dust .
(d) this dust was formed into flesh by God and made a soul(become alive) by blowing the breathe of life into it .
(e)that this process is reversed when that breathe/spirit leaves the flesh and this process is called dying , with the end called death.
(f) that at death, man/adam returns to dust and no where else for God told adam in that verse " to dust you(adam/man) will return ".

With that understanding of the creation of man, what man is and what happens to him at death, I now go further into the scriptures to 1. Find additional points to surpport this views and 2. Find out the condition of man after death.

"And, behold, I, even I, do bring
a flood of waters upon the
earth, to destroy all flesh,
wherein is the breath of life,
from under heaven; and every
thing that is in the earth shall
die." - Gen 6:17.

The verse above shows that the flesh that is living has the breathe of life /spirit in it .

"And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years."- Gen 6:3

This verse shows me that
(a) God refers to man as "flesh", not as "spirit which is present in man" or as "spirit".
(b) other translations use " only flesh " "mortal " "he is flesh"



"And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.- Gen 6:12

This verse helps me understand that
(a) again God who created man called man "flesh" and not "spirit in flesh" or "spirit" . God specifically said "flesh"
(b) that it is the flesh that will be purnished .
(c) that adding this with the initial quotes , that flesh will be purnished with the reversal of live , which is death.

To surpport this view other writers said thus below:

"For he remembered that they
were but flesh; a wind that
passeth away, and cometh not
again."

"He remembered that they
were only flesh, a wind that
passes and does not return."- ps 78: 39

" as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed
our transgressions from us.
As a father has compassion on his children, so the LORD has
compassion on those who fear him; for he knows how we
are formed, he remembers that we are dust.
The life of mortals is like grass,
they flourish like a flower of the field;" - ps 103: 13-15

We are dust, we are mortals, we are flesh .

"For all flesh is as grass, and
all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord
endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you. - 1 pet 1: 24,25.

"For the LORD will execute
judgment by fire And by His
sword on all flesh, And those
slain by the LORD will be
many."

"For by fire and by his sword
will the LORD plead with all
flesh: and the slain of the
LORD shall be many." - isa 66 :16

"And all flesh shall see the
salvation of God." Luke 3:6

Note: it is not derived , god said man is flesh.

To be continued in my next post

Jeromejnr:
And I've long answered this question u asked. But you've refused to get it.

My spirit (the real me) came directly from God and existed in eternity before even creation of the world in the mind of God.

I was only just given a form in the flesh when I was In my Mothers womb.
As God said"before you were born I knew you and formed you in your mothers womb."

What is the second death? Final separation of spirits from God in the eternal lake of fire.

Death does not mean loss of consciousness as you are accustomed to, but falling from grace.

You talking that way because you are very used to physical death and all you think of is a loss of consciousness.

When Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus, were they unconscious?.

No you have not answered the questions sir.
Where does the bible say the spirit goes after death.

Does the bible say the spirit die?.

My question is, when did that your spirit enter ur form in flesh.
The scripture you quoted said nothing about ur spirit.

What does the bible say happens to you when you die ? Does the bible say you lose consciousness?

Jeromejnr:
You've not answered it sir.

And who do you know the writer of Job is? Scholars say it could be one of his friends.

And was it Solomon himself that took a pen and wrote down Eccl or was it someone else that wrote what he might have said?

You see there is no basis to what you've been saying. Your just assuming tins.

I've answered ur question on job.

I Wunt go into the issue of writers cus I feel it will only distract us from the main issue we are discussing . And that is where does the spirit go after death?.

Jeromejnr:
Lol.

Guy, ur understanding of scripture is

When I said spirits die, was there any mention of loss of consciousness?

Spiritual Death means separation from the life of God. (Very simple)

I have given you scriptures to show consciousness of people in hell or paradise.

BTW. Since you are using the internet. Why don't you google a study on the book of Ecclesiastics.

Don't compare Jesus with Solomon. And besides, No one has fully agreed that the writer of Eccl was Solomon.

And you skipped my argument on Job and his friends. Why don't you answer that?. Why will God be angry of something He inspired someone to say that covered chapters of the bible?. Why didn't He approve what they said but was ready to punish them until Job intervened?

So my broda, not all statements made in the Bible from an individual are directly inspired by God.

Sir, "spirtual dead " is totally different from 'spirit dying". Show me scripture that says spirit die.
So if spirit die and body dies, which one remains conscious after death.?

Note, you did not answer the question concerning the spirit in you.

I'm not comparing jesus with solomon, the question is , did jesus use the same method of asking questions as used by the writer of ecclestiatis?

I've answered ur question on job

Jeromejnr:
So lets look at it from your point:

If you say so, the why did God say this: Job 42:7

"It came about after the LORD had spoken these words to Job, that the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has. 8"Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has."…"

Since you said every statement was inspired, why was God angry with Jobs Friends for saying what they said?

I mean, these guys had whole chapters of what they said.

Sir, it is written by a writer that job "said" or jobs friends "said". Neither Job nor his friends wrote those verses. The writer was telling the truth about job and his friends, he was the one that was inspired to do so.
And the writer wrote enough so that we can know what to do and say about God. Can you see that the writer also wrote about the corrections they received?

So jobs friend where not inspired to say those things, but the writer was inspired to write those things down .
This is similar to what the writer of genesis wrote when he recorded the false words of Satan down in Eden. Can we say the writer was natural and not inspired cus satans words where wrong ?

Jeromejnr:
Yes sir, spirits die.

How? Separation from God. Those who don't have the life of God in them.

E.g In Genesis, God said to Adam, the day you eat of this fruit, you shall die.

That's why the white throne judgement is meant for only sinners not saints(I saw the dead, both small and great...) The saints judgement is called the judgement seat of Christ where reward is giving based on good or bad done in the body.2 Cor5:10.

As for the spirit returning to God,

Why should you not take what he said literally?

"For who can prove that the human spirit goes up and the spirit of animals goes down into the earth? Ecc 3:21"

The same person you want to take literally said that. He was even questioning where the spirits go.

You see why I said "he talked as a natural man trying to reason out things logically" . so don't take what he said literally.

I just gave you scripture. Or do animals have spirits and go down to earth and not upwards? Because upwards is where God is isn't it?.

Sir, spirit die? But I thought you guys say its the body that dies.? now the spirit is added to the things that die? This makes the statement in ecclestiatis true then, that "the dead are conscious of nothing! Right?
And again you forgot to put proof with the key word "spirit".
You said "sepiration from God, those who dnt have the life of God in them " without explaining how these affects the spirit in you and me.
Well this Brings about these questions : when did your spirit enter ur body? Did that spirit come from God and then became allienated from God?

You have not stated with proof where the scripture says spirit goes when man dies.

The wise man who wrote ecclestiatis used a method that another wise man who lived hundred of years later used. The second wise man jesus, also asked questions several times. Are we now saying that jesus does not know the answer to the questions he asked ? Or he was a natural man trying to reason out things logically too?

I believe the writer provided the answers to the question he asked: there is no difference between the spirit in animals and man, man and animals have the same spirit in them . These are from the inspired word of God and wateva these writers put down has Gods approval.

Jeromejnr:
The whole bible was inspired to be written, collated and canonized by God.

That doesn't mean all statement made from individuals in the bible were directly inspired by God.

When Satan quoted scriptures to Jesus, who inspired him?

Its not a trick question.

Even though some statements made by individuals were not directly inspired by God, God inspired the writers to put it down. Why? Because there was something to gain from it.

By now you're supposed to understand my point.

The whole scripture was inspired by God. Even though the writers might write their own opinnion or emotions , God inspired them to write those words down . This means that those words are true, and the writer wrote the truth.
The writer of ecclestiatis cannot or would not have been able to write the words of ecclestiatis down if these words where not inspired, no matter his personal views, emotions or thoughts.

For those words to be written down, it must be truth and must also be the word of God.
Satan quoted the inspired word of God, he did not write it or was inspired . Satan quoting any scriture does not make a scripture inspired .

Jeromejnr:
Its's not hard to understand. All sprits will one day stand before God. E.g The Judgement of the saints and also the White Throne Judgement.

"Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.… Rev 20:11"

And as for the return to God Issue, I have said the book of Ecclesiastics was writing from the standpoint of Man without God and purpose. He pondered on life from the Logical perspective and not the spiritual.

Look at this:

In discussing this matter I have found the quotation from President Brigham Young contained in his Discourses, which says: "[The scripture] reads that the spirit goes to God who gave it. Let me render this scripture a little plainer; when the spirits leave their bodies they are in the presence of our Father and God, they are prepared then to see, hear and understand spiritual things. But where is the spirit world?" He answers by saying this:

"If we go back to our mother country, the States, we there find the righteous, and we there find the wicked; if we go to California, we there find the righteous and the wicked, all dwelling together; and when we go beyond this veil, and leave our bodies which were taken from mother earth, and which must return, our spirits will pass beyond the veil; we go where both Saints and sinners go; they all go to one place.

"If the wicked wish to escape from his presence, they must go where he is not, where he does not live, where his influence does not preside. To find such a place is impossible, except they go beyond the bounds of time and space." (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1941], pp. 376-77.)

As I understand what President Young is saying, when we go home to God, it is just like going back to our home country. We may not go into the presence of the governor of the state where we live, but we will go to the home country, and there we shall find our level among the people with whom we are most accustomed to associate. (The Teachings of Harold B. Lee, pp. 57-58)

Sir, me and you will stick to the scriptures as the primary source of info. There are lots of books that one can find views on certain things on . But they are not inspired , or are they?

You quoted rev 20:11, that verse did not say "the spirit(s) stand" before the throne. It said "the dead".
Abi does the spirit die? So as to consider the spirit as dead.
Remember, the key word (spirit)I asked for when providing proof to ur statements .

The word "return" in genesis and the first part of eccl 12:7 is literal, why wunt the second "return be literal too?

Modified : pls also answer the question. Where does the scripture say the spirit goes to when man dies?.

Jeromejnr:
Did you even understand what we've been talking about since

Now get what I am saying from this point: Paul himself used Poems from Greek poets to help in teaching the word.

Was paul inspired by God to use poets?
Is all the scriptures inspired by God?
Are those verses by the writer of Ecclestiatis you mentioned not Inspired?

Ayomivic:
i like you style, you are just twisting my words. Ok, pls let limit this discussion to Jesus being God or not so there would not be mix up.

If we have not been in agreement, that mean i have'nt get your point on Isaiah 9.6 because there Jesus was call mighty God. May be you shoud read that post again ,i did not remove any word
I am expecting you to look at the word "God" in that Statement and if you compare it with John 1:14 then you will get the picture i am trying to paint

i have said it that Jesus is word of God and the word of God is God according to John 1 the word of God was made flesh and that was Jesus. God has power to do that .The bible told us that Jesus is God. If by word God created all he created and Jesus is word are you saying Jesus is not the creator? I want you to understand that this issue is hard to understand if we see God as man,if we limit is power to man.

if you are Christian and you said Jesus is not God then you will need to explaine these verses of Bible to us

1 Matthew 1:23
" Behold a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name EMMANUEL, which being interpreted is GOD WITH US.

Explaine why Jesus being call Emmanuel?

2 Isaiah 43:10-11
" you are my witneses, says the Lord, and my servant whom i have choosen: that you may know and believe me and understand that i am he: BEFORE ME THERE WAS NO GOD FORMED NEITHER SHALL THEIR BE AFTER ME. I, EVEN I, AM THE LORD, AND BESIDE ME THERE IS NO SAVIOUR.

Is Jesus our saviour ?If Jesus is saviour does this statement contradicted?

3. John 8:58
Jesus said unto them verily ,verily i said unto you before Abraham was, IAM

Why would Jesus says this? Is it true Jesus was before Abraham? If yes how? If No explain?

4. philipian 2 5-7
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus : who being in form of God,thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made himself of no reputation and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in likeness of men

5 1Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the MYSTERY OF GODLINESS. GOD WAS MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH,Justified in the spirit, seeing of angel, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

6 Titus 2:13
Looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our GREAT GOD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST

7 Hebrews 1:8 9
But unto son he said, YOUR THRONE, O GOD is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of your kingdom.You have loved righteousness and hated iniquity: therefore God, even your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above the fellows.

8 2 John 1:7
for many deceiver has entered into the word who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiever and an anticrist.

Which one are you, deceiver or antichrist?

9 Revelation 1:8
iam Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is and which was and which was to come the ALMIGHTY.

Who said the above statement and why does he refers to himself as Alpha and Omega, the beginning and ending?

Also check Revelation 22:13 if you don't know the speaker above.


After reading all these verses, i ask again is Jesus God or not?

I will reply you , answer with the scriptures you quoted and add mine.

First, I did not twist ur words, if I did, I bet you would have stated where I did it, I qouted you word for word and explained to you where one contradicts the other.

You removed the word "mighty" when using that verse to state that "jesus is God" . That verse says that jesus will be Called "mighty God".
I did look at the word "God" there , that's why I've been saying that "jesus is a God " which is different from ur own statement that "jesus is God"

You urself stated severally that jesus was created. The supreme God or any part of him is not created.

Now let Me go to the verses you said I should explain


(1 )Matthew 1:23: :
New International Version
"The virgin will conceive and
give birth to a son, and they
will call him Immanuel" (which
means "God with us".

As we both know, it is not mentioned that jesus was called by that name by his parents and those who knew him.
"Immanuel" was first mentioned by Isaiah in which I quote below:

Isaiah 7:14
New Living Translation
All right then, the Lord himself
will give you the sign. Look!
The virgin(actual word is young woman, maiden) will conceive a child! She will give birth to a son and will call him Immanuel (which means 'God is with us').

NET Bible
For this reason the sovereign
master himself will give you a
confirming sign. Look, this
young woman is about to
conceive and will give birth to
a son. You, young woman, will
name him Immanuel.

Circumstances and conditions sorrounding Isaiahs prophecy at that time did really show that there was an "immanuel " during that period. Cus the prophecy was initially fufilled during that period. (read chapter 7 and 8 of Isaiah )
Now if we literarily take it that God(the supreme being) changed form and came cus a prophecy says that that person will be called "immanuel " then we you should be ready to accept the fact that jesus was born twice on earth. If these is not accepted by you, then you can accept the other explanation of the word inmanuel.

The word "immanuel" can be taking as a sign that God is with mankind. The bearer can take it as a title name. But it does not mean that God literarily came as jesus.

This identity of Jesus Christ as
Immanuel did not mean he was
the incarnation of God. It was a common practice among Jews to embody the word “God,” even “Jehovah,” in Hebrew names. Even today Immanuel is the proper name of many men, none of whom are incarnations of God.
All the names giving to jesus apart from "jesus( in wish Mary was directly told ) were all
prophetic title-names by which
Messiah would be identified.
Jesus lived up to the meaning of these names in every respect, and that is the sense in which they were prophetically given, to show his qualities and the good offices he would perform toward all those accepting him as Messiah.
So also with his title Immanuel. He measured up to
and fulfilled its meaning.
Worshipers of Jehovah have
always desired God to be with
them, on their side, backing them up in their undertakings, and often he reassures them that he is, sometimes giving them visible signs to this effect.
Ge 28:10-20;
Ex 3:12;
Jos 1:5, 9;
Jos 5:13–6:2;
Ps 46:5-7; Jer 1:19

With the coming of his
beloved Son to earth as the
promised Messianic “seed” ( Ge 3:15) and rightful heir to the throne of David, God was furnishing his greatest sign that he had not forsaken mankind or his Kingdom covenant. The title-
name Immanuel, therefore, was
particularly appropriate to Christ, for his presence was indeed a sign from heaven. And with this foremost representative of God among mankind, Matthew under inspiration could truly say, “With Us Is God.
So I have explained why jesus is called inmanuel.


(2 )Isaiah 43:10-13:
NIV
10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed,
nor will there be one after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
12 I have revealed and saved and proclaimed— I, and not some foreign god among you.
You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “that I am God.
13 Yes, and from ancient days I am he. No one can deliver out of my hand.
When I act, who can
reverse it?”

ASV
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith
Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye
may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God
formed, neither shall there be
after me.
11 I, even I, am Jehovah; and
besides me there is no saviour.
12 I have declared, and I have
saved, and I have showed;
and there was no strange god
among you: therefore ye are
my witnesses, saith Jehovah,
and I am God.
13 Yea, since the day was I
am he; and there is none that
can deliver out of my hand: I
will work, and who can hinder
it?

( for my explanation , ill use the name of the God that was talking there)

At Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says: “Before me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after me.” Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah?
Again, the context answers,
No! None of the idolatrous
Gentile nations formed a god
before Jehovah, because no
one existed before Jehovah.
Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. (Isa. 46:9, 10) But that does not mean that Jehovah never caused to exist anyone who is properly referred to as a god.
(Ps. 82:1, 6; A psalm of Asaph.
God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
6 “I said, ‘You are “gods”; you are all sons of the Most High.’

So jesus is not jehovah or a part of him, jesus is "a God" Jesus is not "God".

Now to the issue of "savior".
The bible does not contradict itself . Instead we use the scripture to explain scripture.

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same?
Not at all. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks
of “God our Savior,” and then
of both “God the Father and
Christ Jesus our Savior.”

Titus 1:3, 4 :
NIV
and which now at his appointed season he has brought to light through the
preaching entrusted to me by
the command of God our
Savior,
4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.

So, both persons are saviors.
Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Jude 25 :
New International Version
to the only God our Savior be
glory, majesty, power and
authority, through Jesus Christ
our Lord, before all ages, now
and forevermore! Amen.

See also Acts 13:23.: “From this man’s descendants God has brought to Israel the Savior Jesus, as he promised.

At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shiʹa‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer”) that is used at
Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but
that certainly did not make
Othniel God , did it?

reading of Isaiah 43:1-12
shows that verse 11 means that Jehovah alone was the One who provided salvation,
or deliverance, for Israel; that
salvation did not come from
any of the gods of the
surrounding nations.

Ill stop here , will continue in my next post ( not to make my post too long )

c33b33:
Lol

IPOB Youth

No "lol" o. Unless you can tell me that these sepiration can occur with recourse to fight or war . Then ill "lol"-ly support anybody

Guys , is that part ^^^^ about love true? That it is not false accusation ?

Jeromejnr:
BTW.
Ecclesiastes 9:4, 6, 10 is written from the standpoint of knowledge "under the sun", from the viewpoint of natural man who lives without thoughts for God. This restates the philosophy of unbelievers that "when you're dead, you're dead."

That was why I said it is also know as a book of perspective. Perspective of a natural man.

So we must remove those verses as part of the inspired word of God?.

Jeromejnr:
All spirits belong to God. Why? He is known as the Father of spirits.

All spirits will one day stand before God. But not all will spend eternity with Him.

So in an expression, there is fact but not to be taking literally like the examples I gave you.

So it is not an issue of whether it is true or not. But on the point being passed across.

But if you believe all spirits go back to God in heaven then you contradict the scriptures.

So you are saying that that statement is true if its not taking literarily abi?
If so, then where did the bible tell us the spirit literarily goes? (key word, spirit)
Can you add scriptural proof to this statements of urs:
(a)"all spirits will one day stand before God"( key word, spirits).

Personal view(you can prove me wrong)
I do think the words used by the writer is "stand before God" he specifically stated " return to God " . The word "return" is used twice there, are we to take one literarily and the other not literarily?

I also think this statement goes along with the story of the literal creation of adam . Adam is said to come from dust, and the breathe if life came into him became a living creature, adam became a soul. Now when man dies, this two things seperate, the process is reversed, but according to how the process came to be in the first place and like genesis and eclle says , the dust, the flesh, man, adam returns to dust and that spirit ( the bible sometimes used "it" for the spirit in man) returns back to God who gave it!

So if Adams case is literal, why can't this reversal be literal.?

Pls note, we are not arguing , we are only having a discussion, learning from each other

Jeromejnr:
Neither.

It was an expression.

When God said, " I will whet my sword and exact vengeance...." Deut 32:41. Well did he actually use a sowrd there?

Was it a lie or truth? Or an expression?.

An expression of what! . Is it an expression of what he knows or what he feels. He made a statement , is that statement true or false. There is nothing like neither in determining if a statement is true or false

Jeromejnr:
He was Expressing his emotions and thoughts just like when he said:

"Money answereth all things...."

Well, was he lying or saying the Truth?.

Pls can you answer my questions, then ask urs !. When he was expressing his emotions was he telling us truth or was he telling us lies.

Jeromejnr:
There is no error anywhere.

The book of Ecclesiastics is also know as a book of Perspective. What does that mean? life as viewed from the one speaking.

You need to understand that not everyone that said something in the bible spoke from God. But in their own limited understanding.

That is why Paul advised us to learn to rightly divide the word of truth.

Example. Not everything in the book of Job is considered to be Truth. When job blamed God for his problems he faced. He wasn't right with that accusation because all the while it was the devil.

Now because that statement was recorded doesn't mean it was Truth.

And BTW, u Can't take everything literally. When David said one time God was angry and smoke came out of His nostrils, did that really happen or was it just an expression?

What you said up there is an expression as given by the writer of Eccl.

So the writer of ecclestiatis was lying ? As in he is not saying the truth?

Ayomivic:
It seems we were in agreement now since you have believed that Jesus is god .Only thing i see you were disputed about in your last post was that, God the father is greater than God the son. I wasn't disputed that, we all know the father is greater than Jesus. I said it before.
Jesus said it. He creats Jesus, He sent Jesus on a mission on earth, He has authority over Jesus. All christians believed in one Almighty God who created every thing include Jesus but that does not say Jesus is not God. I have not told you that God the father leaves his throne in heaven and came down to Earth. And I have shown to you in scripture which we all believed, both the Old Testament ( isaiah 9:6) and New Testament ( John 1:14) where Jesus called God and how he was God. If we say Jesus is not God then there is contradiction in scripture and if you say Jesus is not God then it mean Bible tells lie as some non-christians believed. If we believe like them, then we are ignorant of scripture and the Holy Spirit is not in us because that is what revealed him (Jesus) and the truth to us.

I am still waiting as you promised to read your explanation and understanding of the John 1:14 because without that you have not refuted anything .0

I do not like it when you try to ascribe to me statements that I did not make, I never said or agreed that "jesus is God". You would have known more about what I'm saying if you had attempted to answer my questions.

There are three issues we are discussing which I will number and reply on.

1. Who or what God/ GOD /god is .
2. Who jesus is
3 if the soul is immortal or not.


On number 1:

You made this statement, "God is a supreme being. The Almighty Creator."

I told you this was wrong as there are many Gods , but not all are supreme, almighty or creator. By the fact that there are many Gods, the question is now, why are there many Gods and why are they called Gods. The answer is simple , a God is anything you give veneration to and you worship. A stone can be a God if it is worshiped.
Using the bible as a guide , we can now know and decide which of these Gods deserve our worship and why. These is where the issue of creator, true God and supreme being comes in .

** On number 2
You made the statement "God is a supreme being. The
Almighty Creator." and these "jesus is God " earlier.

By these two statements above one can say or assume that "jesus is a supreme being , the almighty God". But you later rubished this statements with these other statements of urs: "jesus is created", the father has authority over jesus"

First, Most christians who believe in trinity will not support these statement of urs. If jesus is thus lesser than the father, it means jesus is not a supreme being, he is not "God", but rather "a God", going by my definition of God.
If jesus is created , that means he is not the creator , and since you say "God " is creator ,it means jesus is not "God".

You earlier gave an analogy of the ocean and water taken into a bottle out of the ocean. With these analogy, you stated that the water in the bottle was taken out of the ocean and have the same composition with the ocean. These goes contrary to the statement that "jesus was created ", cus if we go by ur analogy, jesus is part of God composition and taken out of God.

Where in the bible is these statement "God the son"?

Again you remove a word in Isaiah 9:6 to try and prove "jesus is God". That verse explains jesus will be called "mighty God". Why do you always remove the word "mighty there" to give a different meaning.
Is jesus the true God?

To talk about the book of john, you will first have to answer my previous questions which will be stated and restated in number 3 .

There is no contradiction in the bible to say "jesus is not God". In fact it makes other issues such as "who the lamb is" why "we can be brothers with jesus and not with God", why "jesus could die", why God could know something and jesus could not", why " jesus was later giving authority " better and clearer.

On number 3.

You say the soul does not die. I told you this is wrong that the bible says souls that is sinning shall die. It does not matter form, location or circumstances of death. The soul can die .

To affirm my views I asked the following question and other related questions .

(a)Is "spirit same as soul?

Pls show where it is said that (b)the soul is immortal
(c)that adam was giving a soul
(d) that the soul leaves the body at death? And where it goes?.

You said Jesus is the pure
word of God, that he was
created by word. That is why I ask,
(e)the other spirit creatures
in heaven, is it not by word
that they are created too? Can
We thus say that by virtue of
their mode of creation , they
are word of god too?

(f)The bible is "word of God,
Jesus is "word of God" right!
Why is this so?

When you answer these questions, we can then be in a right frame to go to john 1:14

dmandy:
Yes sir, the scriptures told me so. Ecc 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

Did this scripture tell you what happens to their soul ?

If man is the spirit , what then goes to hell, which of the two is conscious , the soul or the spirit after death?. Or are both conscious? Do they go to the same place ?

dmandy:
Ok at least you agree that the one that don't sin shall live.

For your example, none. For all have sinned..but by grace those that repent and believe are forgiven and saved. Is it not in your bible?

Yes I agree, if you are perfect and do not have any sin in you at birth, you can live forever. But answer the question , are ur saints of old born sinners or not?, are they perfect or not?. Did they die or not?

Have you not read jesus statement to his faithful disciples: "even if you die" . Answer the question, did ur saints die or not ?