₦airaland Forum

samuk:
So you have the prove of the name Ife being mentioned in European writings of Benin history between 1475 to 1897.

Please provide such reference, the prize of $2000 is available for you to win. Please don't embarrass yourself by running away.

People have been waiting since yesterday for this revelation.

We are all patiently waiting for you to show us the European writer that mentioned the name, Ife in Benin history.

You that is well read, please impress us with your knowledge.

Osayomre song adodo comes to mind


.... Lol youre waiting for insult if you push her to the wall she will come back angry and fire insult at you

MightySparrow:
Good, i have been reading accounts of two kingdoms especially those written more than 100 years or a little less by scholars not tale tellers and given them critical analysis. May be you should do same before coming to contribute on this platform.

Can you summit some links to read


And explain, am not really getting what you are trying to potray here

The yorubas here are derailing this thread....


Give me archeological evidence or still written document from 1400 to 1914 to make it less easier 1914 i said


Please no more derailing on this thread anymire

This thread does not give room for petty discussion like the ownership of the title oba


Get to the main point


gomojam
DonCandido
Amujale
macof
Sewgon79
lx3as
Opiletool
nisai
2fine2fast
Aphrygian
Olu317
Obalufon
geosegun

MightySparrow:
So, your arguement is about myths and not facts and logic? You are supposed to be educated right?

In your previous comment i read you talking about writing and scriptures i guess it what you're trying to communicate here



If it is am sorry i have heard of this version of history before

You need to enlighten me on this one

MightySparrow:
So, your arguement is about myths and not facts and logic? You are supposed to be educated right?

Nigga am not understanding you anymore

What fucking scripture

MightySparrow:
Agreed, the scripture talked about at Iledi in Ife is written in what language and what Benin religion?

I dont know any scripture ooh what scripture is that

OgboAto:
That guy is poorly read. If he was well read, he would know that the European accounts of the 1487 to 1897 he seems to have so much confidence in is filled with records of Europeans writing that the Bini people said to different explorers that their monarch was from Ife. The number of European accounts rehashing the Ife origins of their monarch as told by the Bini is larger than the few accounts that spoke of different origins. When I find the European paper that regards the Ekhaledehn story as nonsense, I'll share.

Can you share the link of the European account who wrote on benin-ife connection before 1897

OgboAto:
We're not in a contest of who revises the most, bro. I was just trying to tell you how Ife was brought into Bini history by your own selves
As for quote put the whatever you want to quote in between:
Make sure the text is between the

Can you explain more or give a screenshot of it on the double quoting


Thanks



Again like i have said i am not blaming the ife people for claiming benin it was our oba who wanted to exploit the political opportunities he saw

That is what i am trying to explain

MightySparrow:
Is ughoton the same as Ife?

Nope is a village in benin

MightySparrow:
You probably have read wrong history or you can't analyse history with common sense or read my response carefully. The Yoruba version says Oduduwa came to Ife with a piece of material with Quranic verse. Samuel Johnson said it is Biblical verse. whatever, none of the debated people had any writing skill before the advent British in 18th century. Ekaledan couldn't have taken a written document to Ife. Again, oromiyan missing in the annals of Benin is something to think about. There mighit not be any Oranmiyan or Izoduwa.

Yea, i want to believe there is no ekaladeran
But ekaladeran established a village in benin called ughoton anual right and ascension of the oba are been done at ughoton were ekaladeran had lived and died.....

benins didn't write but they were very organized
They motalized thier dead in a very organized manners

They were introduced to writings by the Europeans they felt no need because thier form of documentation was unique and they felt no need for writing


So there was ekaladeran who died at ughoton and not ife

OgboAto:
He did not give any conclusions. This is why the paper is regarded as speculative. The point however is that he questioned Bini's stories.

Are you even aware of the fact that ever since the Europeans began interacting with Bini since the 15th/16th century, it was the Bini who have told the Europeans they've come from Ife at different points?

Note that I did not say Portuguese, I said Europeans because after Portuguese, the British, Dutch, French & all sailors of different European nationalities visited and if you compare the accounts you'll see that the Bini themselves told the European their monarch & art had ties with Ife.

When colonial administration was put in place, the colonialists gathered native history to help them establish NA system. What your own people told the British then was that their monarch [and art] originated from Ife. This fact was reflected by your monarch in attending meetings of Yoruba kings; & one of them bringing a part of his dead father to Ife to make his enthronement known. It was what informed the grouping of Bini with Yoruba in Western region in the constitutional conferences. All of these & many other things your own people said & did was what informed grouping Bini with Yorubaland in the constitutional conferences.

When History became a thing in Nigeria, it was still your own people who told researchers at the time that you had ties with Ife. They told local & foreign researchers the same thong. The Yoruba/Ife only knew little about the whole Oranmiyan/Ogiamen issue & the Iguega gist. It was your own people who put all of that in the public NOT IFE/Yoruba people.

It was your own people who set off the gists about being connected to Ife & after the damage has been done, you all want to change story. This is why world over, scholars have regarded your new change of story has revisionism & not one scholar has thought of it as worthy of being taken seriously, not even scholars of Bini origins & there are a lot of them. And you'll be surprised that the first time your Ekhalederhan was published was in the 1970s & it has at different points continued to change with one Ekhalederhen being account different from the other.

The point here is, Bini started the whole thing. We were far away in the hinterlands when you were telling Europeans about Uhe at Ughoton port

See who is talking, yorubas history is full of revisionism

In one part youre correct please do you know how i can Double quote your writeup to explain my point accordingly

AreaFada2:
Ogie means Lord. While a king can be addressed as Lord but usually Ogie is reserved for chiefs. A Duke is called Enogie (The Lord roughly).

Being that Enigie/chiefs/chieftains (plural) are way below the King, Oba or Omonoba since centuries became the king's unique distinguishing title nobody else within Benin territories could use.

You have to thoroughly understand Benin language to get the logic. Just reading what people write about titles in Benin won't give you the full sense of it.
When prince Iginuwa was sent to the seaside now Warri, his father Oba Olua made him Ogie Ame (Lord or Duke of the sea or seaside). Ogiame remains the main title. Olu is just a latter addition.

That's the normal Benin culture of making the Oba's younger sons or younger brothers or those who will not be Oba the dukes in the provinces.
An Oba does not make his son another Oba in his life time. No two obas reign at the same time. So Oba Olua made him Ogie, not king. Though he was the first son, the nobility already made it clear that Iginuwa will never be king due to his "character".

Oba Olua decided to settle him on the seaside and avoid inevitable succession crisis in the future.

While Eweka l became the first Omo n' Oba (shinning child), Oba title already existed in Ogiso dynasty. Like Obagodo.

Oba means shining like heavenly bodies: stars, moon, sun, etc. In common speak it can mean bright read or such shiny colourful reddish stuff.
In many countries have culture of calling princes and princesses child or daughter or son of the land.
Infante or Infanta of Spain, Fils or Fille of France, etc.
Nothing at all difficult to understand there.

Dont mind the yorubas they will call

Olu lord and not king

And they will come and say the word ogie means king


Dont argue


Some even said oromiyan was a conqueror who conqured yoruba areas while approaching benin he heard his grandfather Oduduwa has been dethroned and he abandoned his trip to benin and face ife and never returned to benin


The benin changed the ekaladeran story of dieing at ughoton to migrating to ife to rule them so the oba can control ths entire western regions since he had controlled a part before

MightySparrow:
Either is distorting history or not honest. Each of these kingdoms affected themselves at their peaks. I was doing a research this week on this matter how these kingdoms affected each other culturally. I discovered that Benin worship three principal Yoruba gods: Ogun, Ifa, Olokun. and the name Oba for benin name for their monarch is not seemingly Benin word.
yet Lagos in Yorubaland has such name for their king. There seem to be no time yoruba invaded Benin kingdom but not same for yoruba as Lagos may not have similarities within Benin without a sort of conquest. Ikere in Ekiti has Ogoga as the titular name for their king following a raid of a benin man on the town.
Also, when Oranmiyan was going to revenge misson for the mistreatment of his grandfather, he didn't face benin but moved towards the north. The history of yoruba shows that Gogobiri and Kukawa followed Oduduwa. Their is no evidence Benin has any blood relationship with these tribes. The study is in progres

And our original history of ekaladeran said he died at ughoton aint you beging to see the political play here

Juliusmalema:
The argument just become useless and I am not going further.

Anioma is not an ethnic group or a tribe to even get name. Dennis Osadebe coined the name as an entry to be used in Ohanaeze ndigbo.

I wonder when Anioma became an ethnic group to have name. Wonders shall never cease on nairaland.

It is simply an Igbo name. Anioma is not an ethnicity.

We how the name came


But today it is used to refer to ethnicity........

And what he meant by anioma was the areas influenced by benin and igbo culture

MightySparrow:
Either is distorting history or not honest. Each of these kingdoms affected themselves at their peaks. I was doing a research this week on this matter how these kingdoms affected each other culturally. I discovered that Benin worship three principal Yoruba gods: Ogun, Ifa, Olokun. and the name Oba for benin name for their monarch is not seemingly Benin word.
yet Lagos in Yorubaland has such name for their king. There seem to be no time yoruba invaded Benin kingdom but not same for yoruba as Lagos may not have similarities within Benin without a sort of conquest. Ikere in Ekiti has Ogoga as the titular name for their king following a raid of a benin man on the town.
Also, when Oranmiyan was going to revenge misson for the mistreatment of his grandfather, he didn't face benin but moved towards the north. The history of yoruba shows that Gogobiri and Kukawa followed Oduduwa. Their is no evidence Benin has any blood relationship with these tribes. The study is in progres

Again the tilte of the lagos monarch was eleko n eko the British couldnt pronounce his title and since he traced his origin to benin the British decided to call him oba of lagos


Dont get this missed up oba was recently adopted by your people to mean king......


If the world meant king the ooni should have originally be crowned oba of ife and not ooni


Am still looking for the trace of oromiyan in benin

Juliusmalema:
He is right about the second explanation. Unless you want him to add Ifeanyi and EKWUEME to the explanation.


Okowa- Also, Oko Owa. In Igbo phonology, two syllabic vowels standing together leads to swallowing (Olulo uda ime) so the two /a/ syllables that ought to stand together has undergone this process. Youth of Owa. Oko or Okoro means young man in Igbo, while Owa means a kingdom, a land in present Delta State. It could be that the governor’s forefathers made in pact in their community and are honoured or are personally proud of their community. Other Igbo names with this projection of their town include Nworlu (Child of Orlu Kingdom).

Owa in benin mean house

Oko= meaning a spot, point

Okoro pronounced as oko means prince's


I wouldn't want to debate on this....

But what am seeing okowa is an anioma name and not an igbo name

OgboAto:
A civil response to my brash post? That was mature, I give it to you. I'll edit the expletives in my previous post. Note that, I reacted that way because of your dispositions in previous encounters. So apologies for the insults.

As for your response, you are the one who is misinterpreting. In history, when so much has been written about a subject that it seems over-flogged, there's usually a speculative angle meant to find gaps & raise a ? mark to indicate there's still something left out. This was what Professor Lawal did in that paper. He did not run with what Bini said about their art originating in Ife because he wanted the Bini to fix an error in their timeline of events & claims. If you look at the paper again, you'll see that he didn't necessarily say Bini art was homegrown either.

I won't lie to you, I personally place a question mark on the gist surrounding's presence in Benin.

And he also didnt conclude ife had brought the artwork to benin instead he disagreed on the benin narrative

Do you mean the gist surrounding ife in benin



We were never influenced by ife in anyway if someone say our oba came from owo it will look more presentable than ife


If benins could influence ekiti which is the closet neighbor to ife i dont see why they couldn't maintain a relationship the Portuguese couldn't see and write something about

[quote author=TAO11 post=89221047

TAO11:
Your illiteracy level is so high that you post the very things that refute the point you're defending.

You're defending a weird idea that Benin art was not imported from Ife.

Yet your attachment (on the same page) insists that the Benin art was imported from Ife (but at a date latter to the prior generally held date).

In other words, the author is simply making the case worse for Benin art by insisting that Benin art is not as antique as previously thought.


You've been refuted and embarrassed on this before (till you ran away), there is no point pretending. See link below for a reminder:

https://www.nairaland.com/5807254/politcs-behind-oduduwa-myth/2#88860914

cc: OgboAto

Even when i have a reasonable answer to give to this i would remain untill you learn how to speak

Get out......... You mannerless scornful fellow


Go and learn to speak to your elders first

TAO11:
And the only thing B. Lawal doubted here is the chronology.

He therefore proposed that the Ife people taught the Benin people bronze casting at a date latter than what was previously believed.

See below for a refresher of the embarrasment I made you face on this:
https://www.nairaland.com/5807254/politcs-behind-oduduwa-myth/2#88860914

I told you stop quoting me


You mannerless human being that lack any iota of respect.......

Go and learn how to respect your elders before you can speak to me......

I pity your future husband

lawani:
Do you know that agenebode is ago onibode is a Benin town with a Yoruba name?. So also ogotun. Benin kings were Yoruba people until recently when the edo people overwhelmed the town. The ugbodu people in delta state came from Benin and they are Yoruba's speaking olukunmi a Yoruba dialect today.

The outskirts of edo are mixed with not just benin but yoruba, igala, nupe and Fulani


You calling a mix of benin and yoruba makes you look foolish to me


Go back and bring more valif point......

OgboAto:
Contrary to your falsehood or ignorance, it is a journal article & not a book.
Here's the reference: Lawal, Babatunde , The Present State of Art Historical Research in Nigeria: Problems and Possibilities, The Journal of African History, Vol. 18, No. 2, 1977, pp. 193-216

The key thing in the journal title is 'Problems & Possibilities', meaning the content is not out to present facts but possibly create a new vista of study. Can you people not read & analyse? What exactly is wrong with you people & what school did you go to? This entire paper hovers around the space of Speculative History yet you're here bandying it as a 'New Testament'. For better understanding, see image 1

All of what Babatunde Lawal wrote in that page & the following are speculative [I truly hope you know what that means]. An extant repository of works have suggested & argued the Ife-Bini links in art and what B. Lawal did was an attempt to look for a gap. He did not necessarily dispute the widely agreed theory of Ife's influence on Bini art but sought for a re-adjustment in chronology in Bini history because the Bini themselves kept saying their art came from Ife with not much evidence to back it up - see image 2.

P.S: You a Benin man had to resort to the work of a Yoruba man. Now when we say the Benin are nothing without the Yoruba, you'll begin to bleat all over the place like a fxking Hot goat. All of you Bini, from your monarch to the least person are attached to the nut-sack of the Yoruba for every knowledge & relevance you have and we can see that in this thread

You're simply misinterpreting what he said deliberately


However what he meant was his intention was to shed light on the fact that benin account insisted the artworks came from ife....
He criticized that idea ife artwork came from ife and he wasnt a tribalist who quickly jumb
To the offer.....

Even i was shocked to read about this criticism coming from a Yoruba man.........


When we see the truth we should say it regardless of who we identify with



There was no oranmiyan in benin

Even when the oba his insisting there is but the truth is slaping them at thier face



Again no matter how convincing a scholar could have written he will always leave room for doubts by other writers

lawani:
It is the other way round. the word oba came to Benin through Yoruba influence. The Benin empire didn't speak edo as lingua franca but Yoruba.

Ok you have to prove it.....


You also have to prove benin have any connections with ife



If not run along

OgboAto:
You have?
Oya please mention just one so I can read-up.
Please?

Nope i have posted it before i wouldn't do that again


If i happened to come across it again

lawani:
Oba is the word for king in Yoruba language while Ogie is the Benin equivalent. Omonobanedo in yoruba means the child is king in edo in remembrance of when oranmiyan left his young son eweka to be oba in Benin. Your statement that oba usage started after 1960 in Yoruba land is totally wrong. Oba is a Yoruba word.

Ogie doesn't mean king

Here is it etymology

Ogie(sent)

The word ogie removing its etymology can stand for meaning king, royalty and what have you
This is to say the etymology of a word does not describe it meaning


The etymology of the world king means family

King (family)

Derived from kin

lawani:
Oba is the word for king in Yoruba language while Ogie is the Benin equivalent. Omonobanedo in yoruba means the child is king in edo in remembrance of when oranmiyan left his young son eweka to be oba in Benin. Your statement that oba usage started after 1960 in Yoruba land is totally wrong. Oba is a Yoruba word.

And i said the third party yorubas will equate it as directly meaning king.....
I never said the word oba is not king in Yoruba

I also believe the word oba came to yoruba through benin influence over yoruba people

Unless you want to prove oromiyan existence in benin

Even some yorubas belived oromiyan didn't step in benin and that oromiyan was a warlord who had fought the people who overthrown Oduduwa

OgboAto:
I beg you in the name of everything you believe in, please cite 5 peer reviewed journal articles discussing zero links between Ife-Bini arts. Please

I had posted several in my previous comments i dont have the time to do that again

Scholars have debunked the origin of benin artwork from ife and had agree nupe artwork resembles the ife-artworks.......


The reason scholars used to trace Beni-ife artwork was the fact they believe benin and ife had a connection but that has been proved otherwise

Lol

One thing i know his

History can never be rewritten but only can be corrected to reflect the true picture

The new generation will create a new history


Even though we lost our empire we lost our population the benin and edo people are still still very relevant in nigeria today

MightySparrow:
Either is distorting history or not honest. Each of these kingdoms affected themselves at their peaks. I was doing a research this week on this matter how these kingdoms affected each other culturally. I discovered that Benin worship three principal gods: Ogun, Ifa, Olokun. and the name Oba for benin name for their monarch is not seemingly Benin word.
yet Lagos in Yorubaland has such name for their king. There seem to be no time yoruba invaded Benin kingdom but not same for yoruba as Lagos may not have similarities within Benin without a sort of conquest. Ikere in Ekiti has Ogoga as the titular name for their king following a raid of a benin man on the town.
Also, when Oranmiyan was going to revenge misson for the mistreatment of his grandfather, he didn't face benin but moved towards the north. The history of yoruba shows that Gogobiri and other tribe followed Oduduwa. Their is no evidence Benin has any blood relationship with these tribes. The study is in progres

Thank you....

I dont know the tribe you are from but you seem to want the truth and not necessarily afraid to say it the way it is, gone are the days the truth was hidden because of lack of information to the populace

I personally dont know the Yoruba story it would have helped me better in explaining the benin-ife myth



The truth is the closest neighbor to the benins were the yorubas followed by the igbos, the benin shores were surrounded by the yoruba people i would say yorubas make up some percentage of benin population


Again the title oba was an abbreviation of the full title omo n' oba( the shinny child) to a third party like the yorubas who dont know the etymology would easily equate it as simply meaning king

Omo n' oba(shinny child) was the original full title of the oba of benin it shouldn't be interpreted as
Meaning kings child by the yorubas,
Kings child in benin will be called ovioba
The benin title omo n' oba was a praise title
Which the full name is omo n' oba nedo ukwakpolopolo the word oba was later shortened by the Portuguese for easy pronunciation


The word oba was recently used from 1960 to adress the yoruba obas before this time no yoruba kings were adressed as oba

The issue is if the world for king was oba and the language of Yoruba emerged from ife like they say then the ooni should have been crowned oba and not ooni


Your quest should be did oromiyan really reach benin or was it the benin influence on yorubas thst brought this similarities between both party


Check my comment here


https://www.nairaland.com/5835965/prove-benin-ife-connection-archeological#89203443



Samuk
Davidnazee
Ghostwon
AreaFada2

This is tribalism and bigotry in the highest form


Samuk
Davidnazee
Ghostwon
AreaFada2

OgboAto:
I'll begin with the second part I emboldened. The factor you stated as the cause of the gap between the Old & New Egypt is not only incorrect but an outright oversimplification of a historical process that took a long time.

The Egyptians were conquered & reconquered by several groups starting with the Greeks, to the Romans, to the Arabs, to the several Berber tribes & Mamluks, to the Ottomans & finally the British. However, the Greek & Roman invasions were recorded to have forced migration of Egyptians into Mid-East, Sahara belt & the West of North Africa for instance thereby leaving a gap between the monuments/arts from pre-historic times and the post-Rome Egypt. The gist is, at the time the Arabs and British got there, the gap between Old & New Egypt had already been created.

For the first emboldened line, the Ife made art works in Stones, Clay, Bronze & Iron. Several of the production sites have been discovered and written about extensively by archeologists, many who made their entire careers from studies on Ile-Ife.

I have attempted to provide a snapshot of some of the studies discussing production sites of some of these works in Ile-Ife. However, there are compounds in Ile-Ife today whose Oriki describe their exploits in Stone working, Iron working, Bronze working & Bead Industry. For instance, Hon Ajilesoro, a member of the HOR, is from Obalufon house but his name describes his ancestors' role in bead making industry - their oriki explores full gist. In fact, the name 'Ajilesoro' is derived from a process of bead making.

Anyway, a few of these compounds still hold on to & operate their ancestral professions today particularly in Bronze & Iron working today using the original sites they began from in pre-historic times. Be that as it may, there appears to be a gap between the many monuments from Ife & the Ife of today [like the Egyptian monuments & the Egyptians of today] and this is due to shifts in the items of value; each Ooni from the time past seemed to have a preference for certain professions which they served as patrons for; & the wars with Modakeke leading to the expulsion of Ife for about two consecutive times leading to the migration of Ife to Isoya, Oke Igbo, Ifewara, Ifetedo where a good number refused to return for fear of the war reoccurring. For instance, Ooni Obalufon sponsored Bronze industry; Ooni Lajamisan sponsored bead industry; Ooni Lafogido sponsored stone industry; and Ooni Okiti heavily promoted Iron industry. This state backing had effected on the line of profession and item of trade the people pursued thereby causing a shift in continuity of these things. Furthermore, if you've read Wydham's account of his visit to Ife, he saw so many monuments/artifacts abandoned and many carted of by the Modakeke during the wars.

Conversely, if you look at Bini, you'll find the Bronze and Bead works in that region appear to have been continuously sponsored by every of their Kings. This long term stability created some time of preservation of profession and continuity.

You should probably say nupe artwork is the closest to yoruba artwork not benin

Learn to read books ife-benin link holds ni ground anymore by scholars

RedboneSmith:
I have heard two explanations.

1. Oko + uwa. Oko is Igbo for man or male. Uwa is Edo for wealth. So it would mean man of wealth or wealthy man. I disagree with this explanation because Ika people do not say uwa but uwe. If the name was wealthy man, it would have been Okowe or Okuwe.

2. The second explanation which makes more sense to me is Oko + Owa, where Oko is still Igbo for man, and Owa is the name of the town. So that Okowa would mean man from Owa.

Ifeanyi Okowa is from Owa by the way.

I guess you are given your own possible explanation


Lets wait for any anioma from owa to tell us the meaning