₦airaland Forum

Ubenedictus: joshua PROSTRATED before a tablet inside a big ark and chanted "oh sovereign lord" haha is that also idolatry? Weytin dey wrong with ur head? (bact at ya).
If it isnt then u are a hypocrite.

Is mary the new ark of covenant??

Or is it the rosary??

Is marys image replacing the ark of covenant of old??

If Yes who gave the command for the transition to be made??

If No why bow down to a womans image??

Is that not insanity??

Please answer me.......

Ubenedictus: at d begining of d arguement ijawkid was against anything image, now he is only against marys image. Again i accuse u of hypocrisy.
If d image of a lion, cherubim, etc are commanded to be right there in d worship place, why wont d image of Jesus and his mum? U nid a passage that say "make an image of mary" show me one that say "make a new testament scripture" if u cant then u have no case.

But you read in the bible where it was Yahweh himself who gave the isrealites strict directives on how the temple should be built and all its interiors.......no isrealite presumptuously carved in images or objects in Gods temple...if it wasn't in Gods list of maxims then no isrealite tresppased...

when it comes to matters of worship,God always gave the commands not we humans assuming what should be done...

That is why I keep asking who gave the command for marys image and the cross to be used in worship??

You use the rosary,you make the cross sign while praying and you bow down to marys image......

That is blatant idolatry....

The one that annoys me more is marys image and when you pray through mary.....

I hate that act with all my strength...it shows gross disrespect for God and his son Jesus...

Who is mary that she should be a mediator of Christians??

Who even look mary face during the 1st century....

Ubenedictus: this is one reason i dont look forward to a discusion with you. You said it is wrong to use images, we have shown you legit use of images in d bible, u said it is wrong to bow near or around or facing them, we have shown u how joshua prostrated b4 them, u said it is wrong to talk b4 them, we showed u that joshua did that. At the end u are telling me about "MARY'S IMAGE" is mary's image or Jesus image an outcast? What is done b4 other images cant be done b4 them hahahaha. Ijawkid that is hypocrisy.
ijawkid wants a new revelation hahaha, the last revelation God did he spoke his all, infact he spoke his own Word, i believe that anyone looking for another revelation is simply joking with God. His word already told his church "whatever u bind on earth is bound in heaven" i have that beautiful authority to sleep on. If u are looking 4 a new wordwide revelation then u are luking 4 d anti christ. Gudluck finding that.

Ubenidictus follow Gods precepts......

The temple which God even commanded to be built is all gone......

Everything!!!!!....

The ark of covenant too is squashed and gone.........
Jesus has come and gone back......

Who started the use of marys image and the cross in worship??...

Who??

Was it Joshua that started it??..
Was it the 1st century christian??

Was it peter??

Was it paul??

Who?


who gave the injunction for you to make an image of mary,bow down to it and pray??

Who??

Did Jesus tell you to do that??

Who??

Please just tell me who and I'll leave this post.......

..........

Ubenedictus: u of all pipo is asking 4 biblical characters, is russel a biblical character? Yet he founded ur church.
Ur arguement says yahweh said dont make images then u even go futher and said "yahweh commanded them to make images" yet u cant see how ur interpretation contradicts u. Ha! Ijawkid read b4 u post.

My problem is you did read that Yahweh gave the command for the isrealites to make the ark of covenant.....

Who gave you guys the command to make all the images and carvings you have for worship??

Who??

Please just tell me and we will end this discussion........

Did Jesus give the go ahead??

Ubenedictus: hahaha, if God told you to make images it is right, if it isnt written in d bible that God said to make another image then it is wrong.
This is a st.upid arguement

And if at this age of christianity you don't know that matters involving worship to God has to be precepts that are set in the scriptures then I can't help...wait for God to decide how he should be worshipped,not we presuming......God is not our boy boy we choose to worship the way we like......

Don't let traditions of men beclowd your head,,,,

The use of the cross ,rosary,marys image,images of saints in worship is pure tradition of men...it never originated with the early apostles.......

Ubenidictus you dey fall my hand!!!!!!!.......

I can't believe that you would defend the use of marys image in worship....

I'm disappointed full time...

Ubenedictus: d same way i dont pray thru d image of mary, images do not interceed.

You bow down to marys image and recite""holy mary mother of God please pray for us""...

If this is not idolatry please tell me what is??


Who told you mary prays for you??

How can mary be praying for the 1 billion catholics worldwide??is she omniscient and present??

Wetin dey worry ona for head??

Image here and there......

Ubenedictus: and where did u hear that the catholic church said it is forbiding to pray without statue? If statues aid me in prayer i will use dem if nt i wont. Nobody needs images in d strict sense yet to claim it is against scriptures for images to be present in a place of worship, that is just nonesense

What does that dead rosary do for you??what does marys image do for you??

Why bow down to marys image??

It is idolatry....

Who commanded you to erect it??Jesus or some later pope??

This is so bad!!!!!....

when will the federal government arrest the spate of terrorist attacks on innocent nigerians....SMH!!!!........

Boomark: A catholic anteyist, wanting to force my brother to accept the possession of one idol or the other. E no go work for you!

My brother I weak no be small.....
Lol....

God4moi: Neither do you have anything in form of possesion or relationships that you adore?

Don't lie oh! Even the hoilest of us is like a filthy rage in God's presence. So your weakeness is your idol you don't have to display it before God can dectect what your idol is oh!

See o....

I don't have any my brother.....I worship straigth......I aint playing ""holier than thou"" here.....

I am saying the truth......

God4moi: And there he/she goes again. Sigh. Read my comment dear and understand before you respond. 'You' wasn't used in the context of my comment as a 'noun' I personified your religious practises and this was obvious when I stated that 'don't your religious leaders advertise by using their personal pic'.

Since you keep misunderstanding/misquoting/misjudging my simple comments, I can no longer take your understanding of God's words seriously as you have consitently shown lack of 'understanding' which is one of the fruits of the holy spirit.

'By their fruits you shall know them'

And my answer is NO they don't.......

Are you satisfied??......

I'm not an idolater you hear me?

I have no dealings with images or any religious carvings..


Thank you..

You can keep worshipping the cross and marys image..

Gibberish!!

Mr_Anony: Haba Bros, Have we started translation jumping already? I thought we agreed on only KJV and RSV?!

Lol....

I just had to chip in the darby translation for the sake of lucidity since the Kjv sometimes used the words (life) or (creature) when rendering the. Hebrew and greek word§ for """.soul"".


But the hebrew and greek words that are rendered as SOUL is what is used in all the verses I've quoted....

And they are NEPHESH $ PSUCHE respectively......

So I'm still on trÀck......lol.....

Goodmorning....

Image123: What is man? Man is created in the image of God. He is made a little lower than God. Made with spirit, soul and body. When man dies, he is separated i.e his spirit, soul and body are separated.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The passage tells us of the possibility of killing the body without killing the soul. When a man dies, the body dies and is separated from the soul and spirit. If the soul that sinneth will really die, what happens to the soul that did not sin? When any man dies, their body goes down to the dust, it rots. But the spirit and the soul go to another place.
When Jesus died, He had to give up His spirit.
Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
His Spirit went into God's hands but His body went to the grave. i'm trying to settle this point of separation before moving on. If you have been near someone about to die, say in the hospital, you may have better experience of what is being said. The spirit and the soul leave the body when someone dies. Recall the story of the dry bones in Ezekiel. Or better still, consider the below.

Jdg 15:19 But God cleaved a hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water therefrom; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof En-hakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.
This experience is common with people about to die, or women in labour. You can almost visibly see them 'going'.

1Ki 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
The soul of the child came into him again. The soul had left the body when the child died. this thing is a real life commonsense experience. Thank God, it's even recorded in scriptures, else some people no go accept. Even though its something easily observable.
That been said, the Resurrection is a future event. At the resurrection, spirit, soul and body will be re-joined together. At the resurrection however, the body will be a spiritual body, not dust or physical body. They become as the angels. Angels have a spiritual body, both good and evil angels. Satan has a spiritual body. Saints and sinners will be resurrected. The saints resurrection is termed the first resurrection. Jesus is the first to be resurrected. He was not just raised from the dead like Lazarus or Jarius' daughter, He was resurrected. Notice again in the passages below that the two parties of saints and sinners will be resurrected.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

That established, what happens to man between death and the resurrection? Like has been shown, during death, man is separated. Man's soul is the core, that's where his will and decision is. That is also where he experiences joy and sadness, it is the seat of emotions, it is the part of man that can best experience comfort or torment. When man dies, we say he is dead. God says he is sleeping or resting. The Bible reveals to us that there are varying degrees of this sleep or rest. Just like there are varying degrees of sleep, like a deep sleep and a light sleep, and one can have a good night rest. Not every man has a good rest. Sinners do not have a good rest, unlike believers. Believers enter into rest in the arms of Jesus. Believers sleep in Jesus when they die,
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Paul said "2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Believers rest in Christ when they die. Their sleep is not troubled but a place of rest. There is no such peace for the wicked. Paul called the dead believer's condition as a place to be desired, a position which is far better. Not which will be far better, but which is far better. If the dead stat of the believer was empty, it would then be better for Paul to be here on earth until the resurrection. The place of rest or sleep is a place of consciousness as evidenced by the Revelations 6 passage and the passage of the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
It should be observed that the souls of this set of dead saints were not yet resurrected, yet they could speak to God and hear from Him. They were not unaware or without sense. Also, they could rest as they were told to. It is also obseved from the rich man and Lazarus that they can hear, speak and see, thirst and rest. Ecclesiastes presents us with the state of two dead people.

Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
A baby and a man are contrasted after death. It is said that the baby HAS more rest than the man. Note that the tense is continuous, not past. Else, it may have read that 'this had more rest than the other'. All the dead are not all in the same state or even place. There is evidently a place of torment OUTSIDE the lake of fire or the grave. The devils know this. Compare the scriptures below.

2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Luk 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luk 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.

Image123 let me actually show you 3 aspects from the bibles view point of what “”SOUL””is...
And noÑe points to the fact that the soul is an immaterial part of the body that escapes to Hell or heaven before one is ressurected...



, Genesis 2:7 states: “American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of
the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the
breath of life; and man became a living "SOUL" .
.” The first man, Adam, was a soul.
The understanding that the word “soul” can mean the whole person is supported by other scriptures.
.....
For example, the Bible speaks of a soul’s doing work. (Leviticus 23:30)..
American King James Version
And whatever "soul" it be that does any work in
that same day, the same" soul" will I destroy
from among his people.

........


The soul is spoken of as being impatient, irritated, sleepless, fearful, . (Judges 16:16; Job 19:2; Psalm 119:28; Acts 2:43; )
.......
Judges 16:16.
American King James Version
And it came to pass, when she pressed him
daily with her words, and urged him, so that his
"soul" was vexed to death;

Job 19:2...
Douay-Rheims Bible
How long do you afflict my" soul", and break me
in pieces with words?

Psalm 119:28..

American King James Version
My "soul" melts for heaviness: strengthen you
me according to your word.

Acts 2:43..
American King James Version
And fear came on every" soul": and many
wonders and signs were done by the apostles.



.............
Referring to a soul as a person, Romans 13:1 states:
Darby Bible Translation
"Let every"" soul"" be subject to the authorities
that are above him. For there is no authority
except from God; and those that exist are set
up by God."




Also at 1 Peter 3:20, we read:


American King James Version
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once
the long-suffering of God waited in the days of
Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein
few, that is, eight"" souls"" were saved by water.
.”
........
Nothing in these scriptures indicates that the soul is some immaterial entity that lives on after death.
......

What about animals ? Are they souls? Consider how the Bible describes the creation of animals.
“.” (Genesis 1:20)
Darby Bible Translation
And God said, Let the waters swarm with
swarms of living ""souls"", and let fowl fly above
the earth in the expanse of the heavens...


(Genesis 1:24)
Darby Bible Translation
""And God said, Let the earth bring forth living
""souls"" after their kind, cattle, and creeping
thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind.
And it was so.""



Therefore, all living creatures—human or animal—are souls. .

Animals are infact living SOULs...

.............................
.............................
The word “soul” is used in yet another sense. At Job 33:22, we read:

“King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
"Yea, his" soul" draweth near unto the grave, and
his "life" to the destroyers.
.”

Here, the terms “soul” and “life” are used in parallel, one amplifying the meaning of the other. “Soul,” then, can also refer to the life that one enjoys as a living soul, or person. Hence, the Scriptures refer to Moses’ enemies who were seeking to take his life as “all the men who were hunting for [his] soul{PSUCHE}.” (Exodus 4:19) And concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible says: “The Son of man came . . . to give his soul [life]{PSUCHE} a ransom for many.”—Matthew 20:28.


The Bible’s definition of “soul” is simple and consistent. The word can refer to a human or an animal or to the life that a creature enjoys as a living soul..
.................
...................


Concerning what happened to the resurrection of a widow’s son, 1 Kings 17:22 states:King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and
the soul(life) of the child came into him again, and
he revived.

The widows son was ressurected when life came back to Him....

And as regards Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the
body, but are not able to kill the soul: but
rather fear him which is able to destroy both
soul and body in hell(gehenna)

Look at it from a well rendered translation...

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“And you shall not be afraid of those who kill
the body that are not able to kill the soul;
rather be afraid of him who can destroy soul
and body in (Gehenna).”


..........

That verse is simply saying we should be afraid of Yahweh who is the only one that can kill both our present existence and that to come...Yahweh is the only one that can kill us without the hope of ressurection...

Gods gift is eternal life,and he gives it to those who have been faithful....if we are rebellious then Yahweh can deprive us of eternal life,thereby being able to destroy body and soul.....



The lake of fire is there for complete destruction of those who disobeyed God....


Until an individual is ressurected he or she has no business in heaven....

Every ressurection after Jesus must follow the pattern of Jesus',who was in the tomb for 3days(without his Soul running to heaven),until he was ressurected.....





the analogy of ressurection =joining of soul,body and spirit.... is never a bible teaching but that of paganism....... ....

The teaching of the immortality of the soul totally negates the purpose of ressurection.....

If our souls are immortal then the doctrinÉ of ""ressurection"" would be a complete scam............

Segun agagu: PlSsssssssssss is alcohol a sin..it has really bothered my life.

Drunkenness/heavy drinking is what could be termed as sin...

God4moi: I must say this is the first real question you're asking.

I'll make your answer really simple. Who command you to bless water to use for healing or other activities? Who gave you the command to wear your religion crested tee, hand band, lapel... Who commanded you/religious leaders to use their photos to advertise the religion are these all in you version(s) of the bible?

Now don't you go saying but we don't bow to them. Huh! Huh! You revere them enough to wear them and paste it in your homes, on ur vehicles...

So I smell idolatry?! Hmm.

Sorrry you are talking to the wrong person...

I don't do all you listed .......

I don't believe in the healings of today....all those holy water gibberish and olive oil I detest......


I don't wear religious t-shirts ,I wear white plain shirts...lol.....

I don't have any images around me when I worship.....

And mind you I don't advertise any man of God,I advertise Gods kingdom...

God4moi: So he's not against puting up a snake shape to safe his pple. Tell me. Where they looking up to the bronze snake for healing or looking up to God. Hmm.

God commanded them,...let me be emphatic...God"" COMMANDED"" them to look up the bronze serpent.........

Who commanded you to use the cross in worship or marys image??

who gave the command in your case??

God4moi: Like the box of the convenant and the tabernacle and alter sacrifical materials were idolatry symbols ordained and designed by God?

You just said God designed the ark of covenant....God gave the directives on how it should be built...the isrealites didn't build those objects based on there instincts or out of there own originality...

Now my question....

Where is the command that the cross should be carved and used for worship??

What about marys image??

Who gave the injunction that marys image should be made and then used in prayer .??

Always wait for God or his son to give commands as regards worship instead of acting presumptuously........

God4moi: They didn't hang it, but they made references to it. The cross, death, and ressurection didn't they?

Hmm that reminds me. Putting a snake on the pole for isrealities to look up to for healing of snake bites in the desert too must have been idolatry ordained by God abi. Cos that statue must definitely be demonic. Hmm.

Smh. Igonoramus!

Thanks for calling me an ignoramus.....you are welcome...

You just agreed the early christians didn't hang the cross in there homes nor made the sign of the cross when praying....so can you tell me who started this whole worship of the cross and its use in worship since the apostles and 1st century christians didn't ??

And now you are up with the bronze snake saga....right??

If Yahweh had not commanded moses to erect that bronze serpent would moses have done it??

Besides is it the carved cross in your house,the rosary you wear,and the cross sign you make when you praying that will save you or when you exercise faith in Jesus??

Which saves??

The cross or Jesus??

If Jesus was killed with a cutlass would you wear the shape of a cutlass on your neck or hang in it in your house??

The tree on which Jesus was killed means nothing....other persons have been killed and impaled on trees prior to Jesus' death...its Jesus' shed blood that saves not what he was killed with....

It is plain idolatry when you insist you must use the instrument which Jesus was killed with in worship of God....

The cross you hang in your homes and also the rosary you use is useless....no early christian engaged in such practices....

chukwudi44: Adeboye should focus on his private jet and dumb congregation and leave catholics alone.

Lmao....chukwudi you are too funny...I can't stop laughing...

Na true you talk sha...

italo: That's not what you said. You said "show mw ANOTHER..." If you can't remember your own words how can you remember anyone else's? And when I made my 1st post I wasn't putting it to you categorically that the verse was talking about the crucifix. I was essentially asking: "isn't it talking about the crucifix?" You see, up till now, understanding that simple post is proving a herculean task for you.

I understood your post completely...

My point was for you to realize that your quoting galatians has no connection with our discussion..
Remember our discussion was on:: should the cross be used in worship??did the early christians use the cross in worship??

Those were my questions..

Pauls words to the galatians does not answer that question..

Learn to answer questions correctly..

italo: "Oh foolish Galatians" was what St Paul said. Not "oh foolish Jewish Galatians" as you are trying to force him to say.

Jesus wasn't crucified before the eyes of the Galatians. So how was he portrayed as crucified? Or are the translations that say this wrong? What translation should we use?

I am only saying some Jews were amongst the galatians who already knew about Jesus' death and ressurection......

italo: Very well. It means the cross is very inportant in Christianity. Symbolically and figuratively. Even when Jesus rose, he still had the wounds of the cross. Paul preached Christ crucified...even though he knew Christ was risen. Christ crucified - the power of God. And if Paul is talking about the crucifix, there you have the Biblical example you so badly seek.

All the apostles did was preach about Jesus's death on the cross and nothing more...they never made carvings of the cross and used it as an integral part of there worship...that would have been tantamount to idolatry...its not the cross that saves,its Jesus' sacrificial death...

The cross is not what is important......Jesus' death is what is important..if Jesus was killed with a gun,what more can you do other than preach Jesus was killed with or by a gun and move on??would the gun be the important thing or Jesus' death??
Or would you start hanging an ak47(assuming Jesus was killed with an ak47) on your neck,hanging it in your house and maybe making the gun sign when praying??


You guys have gone haywire with the use of the cross that you even make the cross sign when praying..

What would you call that if not idolatry??

Preaching about Jesus' death does not give us the leverage to make carvings and moulds of the cross and using it in worship,making rosaries and wearing them as tallisman, and making the cross sign when praying...

The early christians never did that...

italo: You didn't add "the Bible." Did they use the Bible?



So if no scripture supports the use of the Bible, why are you using it? That is paganistic, right?

The scriptures tells me I should read from Gods law day and night...Jesus did the same...

The scriptures is Gods laws...

Is it paganistic to read the scripturesna wa for you o

Mr_Anony: Now my friend don't get me wrong. I have never said that Ezekiel 28 does not refer to the devil. What I am annoyed about is how you and frosbel are trying to make it say what it is not saying.
For instance, you are pointing at references to "Eden" while ignoring references to "trading" in the same chapter and about the same person.

Now imagine I was arguing based on Psalm 89 that Jesus had children, you would immediately correct me by pointing out that the Psalm was of David. You will also try to show me other parts of scripture that paint a clearer picture so that I don't get it wrong. This is the same thing I am doing for you here.

It is amazing how you can read Revelations, see it clearly stated that the devil will be tormented forever but then instead of trying to at least reconcile it with other scripture, you write it of as "figurative" only for you to pull out another figurative verse which is even more vague than in Revelations and then build your theology upon a wrong interpretation of it. That is just wrong.

My brother the issue right here is that satan would definitly die..he won't live forever...he will be destroyed

Mr_Anony: This is untrue. I believe that satan will be destroyed and his destruction will be his everlasting torment.

Hmmm...satan would be destroyed??that sounds good to hear..

But you are still on the fence...

Who would be tormenting Him??
Destruction means destruction and not some literal torment......

One cannot be destroyed and still keep living..

Eternal torment is a purnishment many before satan had undergone..

And in all cases those entities were completely destroyed and not literally been tormented...



You seem to want to grasp the truth but @ the end of the day still holding on to the false notion that satan would continue to exist in order to be tormented even when satan you have confirmed that satan would die...

Mr_Anony: Let me make something clear to you: I couldn't really care less about the fate of satan. If God by some weird chance chooses to forgive him and make him an arch angel, I will still give God the glory. It won't change anything for me.

What I won't tolerate is when someone chooses to ignore the bible and force his own imagination on it. that's where we have a problem.

This statement is worth nothing because I can equally say that the anti-hell fire dogma is influencing you.

Let me get something straight with you again: I don't want anyone to go to hell, in fact I wish there was no hell, If I had my way I would literally drag people out of it but then one thing I will not do is to deny it's existence so that I can feel comfortable.

Can you please tell me which hell you are talking about??
Hell is the common grave of man...
If you want to talk about the lake of fire which is a symbol of complete destruction, then you are free...and we've talked about it...

Don't ever assume Hell is a place of torment...that is what gets me cracked up...Jesus himself went to hell for 3days..

Mr_Anony: If a person rejects God, it will be wicked of Him to force the person into His presence for all eternity. Hell is real, denying it(even after clear verses from the scripture) does not somehow make it go away.

You know what, I think we have thrashed this issue resoundingly and we have now come to a point where we'll only be talking in circles if we continue further. I'll leave you to make of this discussion whatever you may but one thing is sure; Hell is very very real and denying it won't make it any less real. You can have the last word if you like.

You are the one that has chosen to not accept the final truth..

You still think satans destruction = eternal torment...

You are still not sure if satan would die or not...

Now my job is to help you see satan would die,be destroyed and would cease to exist...

How hard is that for you to understand??...

The lake of fire solves everything..DEATH is what awaits satan and his cohorts...

When you understand that the lake of fire aint a place but a symbol of complete destruction this would be easier for you

Image123: One advice, please read through this whole post first before your attempt to reply, thanks. Your point is not scriptural. Paul said,

Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
maybe not for you, but for me also, to die is gain. He said
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
He knew that when he died, he would be with Christ. Christ is not in the grave. he spoke of other believers who are with Christ,
2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Believers are sleeping IN Jesus, not in the grave.

You are such a liar......believers are in there graves waiting until they are ressurected...that is why they'll be ressurected....this is what the teaching of the immortality of the soul is causing........you quoted 1 thessalonians 4:14 that confirms Jesus died and rose(ressurected)....now that is the pattern all faithfuls will experience...Jesus stayed in the grave for 3 days,he didn't run off to heaven without been ressurected,then later to be ressurected when his body meets up with his soul.. .....that is rubbish!!!!!!!!

Image123: if you truly bothered to read my posts instead of going on a monologue, you'd have observed that i'm not saying anything contrary to the resurrection. To help you, the bone of contention is that physically dead people are conscious. i've not said that they have resurrected. i've said that their activities are limited as they are in a state of rest(i.e the saints), but they are not unconscious.
Who says a person's soul cannot exist outside his body? Any scripture that says that? As far as we know, i have provided a scripture that states souls existing outside the body.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Notice the bolded phrases, and also notice that 'souls' and 'blood' are distinctly used in the passage, not equaled. Observe what later happens to this souls below, they are resurrected. the resurrection would involve the joining of the body to the soul.The souls existed outside their body, that's why they needed a resurrection. the resurrection joins them, death separates.

Now what you just wrote is one big hoax and not in line with the scriptures....where did you read in the bible that""the resurrection would involve the joining of the body to the soul.The souls existed outside their body, that's why they needed a resurrection. the resurrection joins them, death separates"""??

Are you reading a bible or a book on greek and roman myths??....
Please open a scripture that states the above......

All I did earlier was help you see what it means when it said the souls of the faithfulls are underneath an altar.....but you rather still insist that they(believers) were literally under an altar .........
And now in order to for your false reasoning to ryhme with the scriptures you are now saying those souls later experienced ""ressurection"" by there bodies joining there souls...rubbish!!!!!!!.....

Image123: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Verse 5 tells you that those persons experienced ressurection....there is no way persons can go to heaven without experiencing ressurection...that has been my stand...for you to say souls escape after ones death into the heaven,then later those same souls experiencing ressurection by there bodies joining to there souls is complete rubbish....that is not the kind of ressurection Jesus experienced.....try to clear paganism off your system......

Image123: you're such a nitpicker. What are you posting from, from your misunderstanding? Here is what Ecclesiastes tells us.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes mentions the spirit and the body(dust) going different directions, did you miss that yet again?. It doesn't mention the soul. The passage provides no viewpoint on the soul's destination. Looking cummulatively at the scriptures, we can easily learn that the soul of the saints go to where is called in Revelations as 'under the altar'. This is not my idea but scripture. You are the one trying to reinterprete the scriptures given to fit your misunderstandings.

How woÙld solomon had mentioned or talked about a soul living ones body when that concept was pagan..

All solomon said like you agree is that the spirit returns to God the Giver of it,while the body which is dust returns to dust..

Your problem till this moment is that you have not agreed that the spirit that leaves the body is the (breath of life) that makes man a living soul..it is what returns back to God the giver of life..

And again the souls lying underneath the altar signifies that those ressurected saints died sacrificial death...the altar is not a literal altar...altars are meant for sacrifices and not some literal abodes were persons inhabit...get this knowledge into your skull...

The altar is not a paradise or some literal temporary abode were souls are kept before they are ressurected...rather the altar symbolizes the kind of death the saints under went...

Solomon knew exactly that unless one is ressurected that person knows nothing @ all nor is he conscious of anything...

Image123: How is the statement a twist? Here is the statement again, from my understanding, man is a living soul essentially. So, when he dies, his body(all bodies) go down, his spirit(all spirits) go up
you have english troubles if you think the statement is different in meaning from Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Which BTW was a question, hence the needed phrase, from my understanding.

And what is the spirit that goes up??you still haven't defined it...
The spirit of both the bad and good(all) returns to God the giver of it...what is that spirit??

Image123: From studying the totality of scriptures, the lessons learnt show where the dead saints go to. The Bible teaches in different books and chapters that dead saints are sleeping in Jesus, under the altar, in paradise etc. We either say this passages are contradictory or understand that these passages refer to the same place in different descriptions. It is not uncommon of scriptures to describe a noun in different ways. The kingdom of heaven is described in different ways. God is described in different ways. Same goes for Jesus, The Scripture, the Holy Spirit, and same goes for the abode of dead saints. I said it twice already, why do you falsely say that i am not certain?

You are confused bro...
So sleeping in Jesus now means sleeping under a literal altar and not the graves of these dead person??

So Jesus is now the altar or the paradise like you said??you are day dreaming...wake up!!!!........

So may I ask you:::::which altar then did Jesus' soul go to when he died before his ressurection??


which altar??...image123's altar abi??...

Because as we know Jesus never got close to heaven until after his ressurection....

And exactly how Jesus' ressurection took place so also will the ressurection of the believers be...

They must follow the pattern of the 1st born from the dead....

Image123: Another proof that you have not bothered to listen to me, or read what i'm posting. You're more interested in a monologue, or milder still, a debate and not a discussion. i have explained earlier that the word 'hell' refers to different things in the Bible. Just like heaven refers to different things in the Bible. the context would help to know whether heaven is talking about our sky or whee God is. Hell may refer to the lake of fire, it may also refer to the grave/coffin. Jesus referred to hell, the place of judgement in His speeches. That is where the devil will be thrown in later. This hell/lake of fire is not where Jesus went when He died. he went to the grave. Nobody is in the lake of fire yet. The angels that sinned are not in the grave. they are not in the lake of fire yet, they are waiting for that. But they are somewhere that the Bible also refers to as hell.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;. Hell is not strictly the grave/coffin. you need to learn to read and study and understand scriptures cummulatively, not selectively.

Oh so now you know ""hell"" could mean grave right and that Jesus went to Hell?? Because you've seen clearly that Jesus himself went to Hell(which you always thought was a place of torment) you adjusted your definition of hell..

If you had checked your hebrew and greek texts you would have found out that the many times Hell was rendered in the bible ""sheol"" and ""hades"" was used which means grave....


Hell was a word coined by the KJV editors...that word is suppose to have no place in the bible...never has Hell ever meant the lake of fire... original words like GEHENNA,TARTARUS,PIT,lake of fire never do they mean Hell....

The lake of fire has never meant ""Hell""...maybe its in your dream it was termed ""hell""

You need to study the greek and hebrew words that were later rendered Hell to get the real meanings...you need to study hard...

The angels who sinned are in tartarus,a dark densed pit.....check the original greek word used and tell me if it means Hell...the KJV is deluding you totally...

Image123: Yet another proof that you've not been reading my posts, just eager to rebut. i've earlier quoted Ecclesiastes 6v3-6 and commented on it. You may care to back read. i brought up the key verse again to re-state the reality of a proportional rest. Your stance is that all the dead(saints and sinners) are in an equal state of unconsciousness. The verse shows that one has MORE rest than the other. The sinner cannot enjoy the rest promised by Jesus Christ. Try to get the basic point first on the reality of different levels of rest. Also notice the other scriptures posted tandem that show that saints are rest[/b]ing.

That is why I asked:::: where would you categorize still born children??

You used solomons words that has no dealing with this discussion to tell me the state of rests that exist between sinners and saints..
......
Can you define what rest is??both sinners and saints die while awaiting ressurection....

Image123: i have the right as a christian to quote from any scripture, you do not hold the copyrights. If you were sober enough, you will see that i LIKENED the saints to lazarus in the story of the rich man and lazarus. Ever heard of a simile before? iguessnot. Ever seen/read Jesus liken things before? (e.g Mat 22:2 The kingdom of heaven [b]is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son. ) and other numerous alikes. Focus on the point, not on the parable argument mr. Are we to delete the passage from our Bible now or what? Any mention or suggestion about the narrative, and all you churn out is that is a parable, like a parable is a sin or abomination. Again listen carefully,
The scripture teaches that dead saints have ability to receive good things, take robes, speak to God, and be sent on cameos as it were. They are in a better state than any living saint. i don't think to be 'dead and unconscious' is a better state than the potential and ability to do greater works than Jesus on earth. Don't tell us again that they are dead and unconscious, why build a doctrine on one misinterpreted and misunderstood verse in the old testament?


Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul in phillipians was anticipating when he'll be ressurected...only when he is ressurected can he go to heaven....don't you get it??


Once again I reiterate that those dead saints would get nothing in heaven until they are ressurected...they must be ressurected 1st just as Jesus was....

JesÙs was not giving anything nor did he accept anything while in his grave until he was ressurected...

Image123: Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Joh 12:33 This he said, signifying what death he should die.
Joh 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
Make your conclusions.

Matthew told us why those graves were opened...it said an earthquake occured...didn't you read that verse??

And can you please mention the persons who were ressurected if you insist those bodies were ressurected in the literal sense of ressurection??are they the same souls that were under the altar??...

And when Jesus said when he is lifted up just like the copper serpent he'll draw ""all"" men to himself ,how does that apply to the incident that occured in the book of matthew??...
The next verse says Jesus was infact telling the people the kind of death he'll face and that anyone who exercises faith in his sacrificial death would gain life just as the isrealites received life when they looked upon the bronze serpent....

The truth is those persons never experienced ressurection before Jesus who is the first born from the dead...

Besides where did the ressurect bodies of those persons go to??heaven or Hell fire??

Answer....

My freind the earth quake brought out those dead bodies from there tombs...

Image123: Can you prove this? Is there anything false about those statements? Does Jesus' authority supercede others? Did Jesus come from Heaven? Was Jesus teaching about the destination of man when he dies, in that passage?

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Fortunately for us, Jesus did not say the boldened. The boldened contradict other scriptures. Jesus said many things which should not be taken literally when other scriptures are considered CUMMULATIVELY. He said stuff such as,

Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live forever:
He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.
Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and His disciples. They came with a message from on His passion for Him and for His disciples. Elijah was taken to Heaven.

2Ki 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2Ki 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
Mar 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

I want you to do your home work to find out wether elijah really went to the heaven you are thinking of....I believe you know there are many heavens...

Jesus' singular word that no man has ascended into the heavens should ring a bell into your head....

To dispute Jesus' words shows you are blind to the truth..

What you should be asking is which heaven did elijah go to??

Is it the same heaven Jesus descended from??

if you had asked yourself such questions you won't run into the conclusion that elijah went to heaven,..that is why Jesus came to clear the air saying""no man has ascended to the heavens,except the son of man who came down.""

Jesus was not on cannabis when he said those words...


If you are thinking the heavens Jesus acsended to, to sit down at the right hand of God is the same heaven elijah was taken to,then you need serious help!!!!...:-)

Image123: Jesus raised many dead folks before He Himself was raised from the dead. Being the firstborn from the dead has to do with His resurrection. Resurrection involves the joiningg of the spirit, soul and body separated by death, in this case, never to die again. The dead saints are not yet joined together spirit, soul and body. They do not yet have a spiritual BODY. This is different from them being conscious, or being in heaven(under the altar, paradise, asleep in Jesus who is IN HEAVEN).

WhÉn you keep saying ""ressurection involves the joiningg of the spirit, soul and body separated by death, in this case, never to die again. The dead saints are not yet joined together spirit, soul and body. They do not yet have a spiritual BODY """ I can't help but shake my head at your pagan concept of ressurection...it just totally shows you don't even know what ressurection is..

Your definition of ressurection is one big fraud...how can the joining of the soul,body and spirit mean ressurection??

Can you apply this to Jesus' ressurection??
where was Jesus' soul before his ressurection??


For you to say the dead saints are not yet joined to there body ,soul and spirit is totally gibberish and not biblical...


1 corinthians 15:40-50 tells us that ressurection occurs when a body changes from its physical state to a spiritual state and not when body soul and spirit are joined together...

Where did you get this joining of body soul and spirit rubbish from??
Stop spreading pagan myths...

Image123: So why does the Spirit of God use the two words 'soul' and 'blood' in the same passage, if He meant them as the same thing? Why do this 'bloods' get to reign a thousand years?

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
In the ijawk version/translation, remember to write it as the below ehn!

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the bloods of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

OR

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our soul on them that dwell on the earth?

Look at this again.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

You fit put blood for your own Bible wey you wan write ehn!

Those souls of those death saints in revelation 6:9 contextually shows that those persons died sacrificial deaths...

Revelations 20:5-6 endorses my stand that those dead saints experienced ressurection before they could rule with Christ(1st ressurection)...

Your soul joining spirit and body is so false that I can stand it..

No where in revelation does it say the soul,spirit and body of those saints were joined together before they sat to rule as kings aand priests with Jesus..

Ressurection means bringing back one from the dead...

For you to say the saints experienced a transition and fusion process which Jesus didn't undergo would be a scam...

Image123: And what is the relevance of this question again?

The relevance of this question is for you to tell me where the spirit,body and soul of adam and eve is??

Where are they??..

Fine adams spirit went to the heavens..right??


His body to the dust...

Where is adams soul??

Mr_Anony: @frosbel and @Ijawkid

Ezekiel 26-28 (RSV)

Eze 26:1 In the eleventh year, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 26:2 "Son of man, because Tyre said concerning Jerusalem, 'Aha, the gate of the peoples is broken, it has swung open to me; I shall be replenished, now that she is laid waste,'
Eze 26:3 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am against you, O Tyre, and will bring up many nations against you, as the sea brings up its waves.
Eze 26:4 They shall destroy the walls of Tyre, and break down her towers; and I will scrape her soil from her, and make her a bare rock.
Eze 26:5 She shall be in the midst of the sea a place for the spreading of nets; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD; and she shall become a spoil to the nations;
Eze 26:6 and her daughters on the mainland shall be slain by the sword. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 26:7 "For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a host of many soldiers.
Eze 26:8 He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a siege wall against you, and throw up a mound against you, and raise a roof of shields against you.
Eze 26:9 He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers.
Eze 26:10 His horses will be so many that their dust will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of the horsemen and wagons and chariots, when he enters your gates as one enters a city which has been breached.
Eze 26:11 With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword; and your mighty pillars will fall to the ground.
Eze 26:12 They will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise; they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses; your stones and timber and soil they will cast into the midst of the waters.
Eze 26:13 And I will stop the music of your songs, and the sound of your lyres shall be heard no more.
Eze 26:14 I will make you a bare rock; you shall be a place for the spreading of nets; you shall never be rebuilt; for I the LORD have spoken, says the Lord GOD.
Eze 26:15 "Thus says the Lord GOD to Tyre: Will not the coastlands shake at the sound of your fall, when the wounded groan, when slaughter is made in the midst of you?
Eze 26:16 Then all the princes of the sea will step down from their thrones, and remove their robes, and strip off their embroidered garments; they will clothe themselves with trembling; they will sit upon the ground and tremble every moment, and be appalled at you.
Eze 26:17 And they will raise a lamentation over you, and say to you, 'How you have vanished from the seas, O city renowned, that was mighty on the sea, you and your inhabitants, who imposed your terror on all the mainland!
Eze 26:18 Now the isles tremble on the day of your fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea are dismayed at your passing.'
Eze 26:19 "For thus says the Lord GOD: When I make you a city laid waste, like the cities that are not inhabited, when I bring up the deep over you, and the great waters cover you,
Eze 26:20 then I will thrust you down with those who descend into the Pit, to the people of old, and I will make you to dwell in the nether world, among primeval ruins, with those who go down to the Pit, so that you will not be inhabited or have a place in the land of the living.
Eze 26:21 I will bring you to a dreadful end, and you shall be no more; though you be sought for, you will never be found again, says the Lord GOD."

Eze 27:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 27:2 "Now you, son of man, raise a lamentation over Tyre,
Eze 27:3 and say to Tyre, who dwells at the entrance to the sea, merchant of the peoples on many coastlands, thus says the Lord GOD: "O Tyre, you have said, 'I am perfect in beauty.'
Eze 27:4 Your borders are in the heart of the seas; your builders made perfect your beauty.
Eze 27:5 They made all your planks of fir trees from Senir; they took a cedar from Lebanon to make a mast for you.
Eze 27:6 Of oaks of Bashan they made your oars; they made your deck of pines from the coasts of Cyprus, inlaid with ivory.
Eze 27:7 Of fine embroidered linen from Egypt was your sail, serving as your ensign; blue and purple from the coasts of Elishah was your awning.
Eze 27:8 The inhabitants of Sidon and Arvad were your rowers; skilled men of Zemer were in you, they were your pilots.
Eze 27:9 The elders of Gebal and her skilled men were in you, caulking your seams; all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in you, to barter for your wares.
Eze 27:10 "Persia and Lud and Put were in your army as your men of war; they hung the shield and helmet in you; they gave you splendor.
Eze 27:11 The men of Arvad and Helech were upon your walls round about, and men of Gamad were in your towers; they hung their shields upon your walls round about; they made perfect your beauty.
Eze 27:12 "Tarshish trafficked with you because of your great wealth of every kind; silver, iron, tin, and lead they exchanged for your wares.
Eze 27:13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech traded with you; they exchanged the persons of men and vessels of bronze for your merchandise.
Eze 27:14 Beth-togarmah exchanged for your wares horses, war horses, and mules.
Eze 27:15 The men of Rhodes traded with you; many coastlands were your own special markets, they brought you in payment ivory tusks and ebony.
Eze 27:16 Edom trafficked with you because of your abundant goods; they exchanged for your wares emeralds, purple, embroidered work, fine linen, coral, and agate.
Eze 27:17 Judah and the land of Israel traded with you; they exchanged for your merchandise wheat, olives and early figs, honey, oil, and balm.
Eze 27:18 Damascus trafficked with you for your abundant goods, because of your great wealth of every kind; wine of Helbon, and white wool,
Eze 27:19 and wine from Uzal they exchanged for your wares; wrought iron, cassia, and calamus were bartered for your merchandise.
Eze 27:20 Dedan traded with you in saddlecloths for riding.
Eze 27:21 Arabia and all the princes of Kedar were your favored dealers in lambs, rams, and goats; in these they trafficked with you.
Eze 27:22 The traders of Sheba and Raamah traded with you; they exchanged for your wares the best of all kinds of spices, and all precious stones, and gold.
Eze 27:23 Haran, Canneh, Eden, Asshur, and Chilmad traded with you.
Eze 27:24 These traded with you in choice garments, in clothes of blue and embroidered work, and in carpets of colored stuff, bound with cords and made secure; in these they traded with you.
Eze 27:25 The ships of Tarshish traveled for you with your merchandise. "So you were filled and heavily laden in the heart of the seas.
Eze 27:26 Your rowers have brought you out into the high seas. The east wind has wrecked you in the heart of the seas.
Eze 27:27 Your riches, your wares, your merchandise, your mariners and your pilots, your caulkers, your dealers in merchandise, and all your men of war who are in you, with all your company that is in your midst, sink into the heart of the seas on the day of your ruin.
Eze 27:28 At the sound of the cry of your pilots the countryside shakes,
Eze 27:29 and down from their ships come all that handle the oar. The mariners and all the pilots of the sea stand on the shore
Eze 27:30 and wail aloud over you, and cry bitterly. They cast dust on their heads and wallow in ashes;
Eze 27:31 they make themselves bald for you, and gird themselves with sackcloth, and they weep over you in bitterness of soul, with bitter mourning.
Eze 27:32 In their wailing they raise a lamentation for you, and lament over you: 'Who was ever destroyed like Tyre in the midst of the sea?
Eze 27:33 When your wares came from the seas, you satisfied many peoples; with your abundant wealth and merchandise you enriched the kings of the earth.
Eze 27:34 Now you are wrecked by the seas, in the depths of the waters; your merchandise and all your crew have sunk with you.
Eze 27:35 All the inhabitants of the coastlands are appalled at you; and their kings are horribly afraid, their faces are convulsed.
Eze 27:36 The merchants among the peoples hiss at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever.'"


Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:2 "Son of man, say to the prince of Tyre, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Because your heart is proud, and you have said, 'I am a god, I sit in the seat of the gods, in the heart of the seas,' yet you are but a man, and no god, though you consider yourself as wise as a god--
Eze 28:3 you are indeed wiser than Daniel; no secret is hidden from you;
Eze 28:4 by your wisdom and your understanding you have gotten wealth for yourself, and have gathered gold and silver into your treasuries;
Eze 28:5 by your great wisdom in trade you have increased your wealth, and your heart has become proud in your wealth--
Eze 28:6 therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Because you consider yourself as wise as a god,
Eze 28:7 therefore, behold, I will bring strangers upon you, the most terrible of the nations; and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom and defile your splendor.
Eze 28:8 They shall thrust you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the heart of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Will you still say, 'I am a god,' in the presence of those who slay you, though you are but a man, and no god, in the hands of those who wound you?
Eze 28:10 You shall die the death of the uncircumcised by the hand of foreigners; for I have spoken, says the Lord GOD."
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:12 "Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord GOD: "You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, topaz, and jasper, chrysolite, beryl, and onyx, sapphire, carbuncle, and emerald; and wrought in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared.
Eze 28:14 With an anointed guardian cherub I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.
Eze 28:15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you.
Eze 28:16 In the abundance of your trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned; so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God, and the guardian cherub drove you out from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Your heart was proud because of your beauty; you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor. I cast you to the ground; I exposed you before kings, to feast their eyes on you.
Eze 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade you profaned your sanctuaries; so I brought forth fire from the midst of you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you.
Eze 28:19 All who know you among the peoples are appalled at you; you have come to a dreadful end and shall be no more for ever."
Eze 28:20 The word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 28:21 "Son of man, set your face toward Sidon, and prophesy against her
Eze 28:22 and say, Thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I am against you, O Sidon, and I will manifest my glory in the midst of you. And they shall know that I am the LORD when I execute judgments in her, and manifest my holiness in her;
Eze 28:23 for I will send pestilence into her, and blood into her streets; and the slain shall fall in the midst of her, by the sword that is against her on every side. Then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 28:24 "And for the house of Israel there shall be no more a brier to prick or a thorn to hurt them among all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD.
Eze 28:25 "Thus says the Lord GOD: When I gather the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and manifest my holiness in them in the sight of the nations, then they shall dwell in their own land which I gave to my servant Jacob.
Eze 28:26 And they shall dwell securely in it, and they shall build houses and plant vineyards. They shall dwell securely, when I execute judgments upon all their neighbors who have treated them with contempt. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God."


I have taken the time now to paste the whole prophecy here. This prophecy is tangential to our discussion so I don't really want to pursue it on here. However, I would like you guys (and everyone else who is interested) to take the time and read it.
As I have said, the subject of the prophecy is Tyre and Sidon. The devil is referred to but he is used as a metaphor to show what will be the extent of Tyre and Sidon's destruction.
All the same, don't take my word for it. Read it and find out yourself what it is really saying.

It is funny how you guys (frosbel and Ijawkid) will happily overlook the book of Revelations where the devil's fate is described in vivid colorful detail only to come to Ezekiel 28(where the devil isn't even mentioned by name) and try to use one prophecy to cancel another out.

It is bad practice to write of Revelations as figurative only to attempt to use an even more figurative prophecy in Ezekiel to cancel out another prophecy (God forbid!)

MR anony you act like you have not seen many prophecies in the bible that although when directed to a particular person or nation at a particular moment ,its fulfillment projects also to other persons....that is why we have the word ""antitype""...



......
What would you say about psalms chapter 89.??

That whole psalms was directed to david,but at some point we could also see that it was applying to Jesus even when his name wasn't mentioned.......

Jesus' name was never mentioned in the book of psalms...was it??
.
Now that is how the bible is.....

There in ezekiel chapter 28,although a dirge was directed straigth at tyre and sidon.we could see how the disobedient son of God(satan) was incorporated into that same prophecy...when you hear words like ""cherub"",created ""perfect"",you were in ""EDEN""
One whÓ is a bÍble student would know that,that chapter was also giving a gist of how satan who had a perfect standing and beginning with God,but have now turned into a renegade would meet his end...which is??total destruction......

I and frosbel were not doing selective hearing or comparing scriptures and twisting its context,rather we've used the scriptures to prove that the lake of fire is a symbol of total destruction and not some literal lake or place were persons would be wallowing in torment for all eternity...
.........
The truth that is so hard for you to accept is that satan would be ""destroyed"".....
........
The hell fire dogma has totally made you reject truths staring right @ you....

italo: First you want a verse. Then I give you a verse, then you want another one. My friend, quit these childish pranks.

I said show me scriptures were the early christians used the cross in worship...how does galatians prove it??.......eh??.....show me where the apostles and early christians carried along with them the crucifix abi cross around...wearing them on the necks and using them in worship...venerating them........

Show me.....

italo: But did St. Paul say "oh foolish Jews in Galatia" or "oh foolish Galatians"?

Jews were in galatia......abi you been evict them??

italo: Firstly you have to make up your mind which translation you believe, because the translations you mentioned are saying three different things so they cannot all be correct.

Not any translation tells me that the cross was used in worship ot that early christians made signs of the cross in worship......galatians says nothing of that sort...don't twist the scriptures...

italo: St Paul didn't say all these. You are the one adding it.

PaÙl had no dealings with any mÓÙlding ,image wh
atsoever....

italo: Did I say it did. You just like to type many irrelevant things. Perhaps that's how you were taught to win arguments. I said if it isn't talking about the crucifix, tell me what it is talking about.

ok so paul talking about the crucifix means what??....hope you still remember our discussion.....

my question still remains::::biblically did the early christians use the cross in worship??did they use the rosaries??did they make the sign of the cross when praying??....

These are questions that no scripture supports.......

Thank you....

Logicboy03: lol.......stop spinning!

Drinking blood and transfusing blood are two different things. If you lose a lot of blood, would you refuse to take a blood transfusion and die?

how is Ðrinking bloÓd and t®ansfusing blood 2 different things??

Is it the mode by which it gets into the body that is different or the fact that external blood found its way into the body??

Drinking or transfusion are both modes by whÍch one can take in blood....

Na lie??

I won't die if I refuse to take blood...

There are alternatives to blood transfusion........

italo: @ Ijawkid

Sorry, I meant Gal 3:1:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."

How was Jesus portrayed as crucified before the eyes of the Galatians?

Can you use another scripture to tell me how Jesus was portrayed as crucified other than that paul preached about the messiah??

And remember amongst the galatians were Jews who did witness Jesus' impalement....

Let's see from the galatians 3:1....

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Oh stupid Galatians! Who has rivaled you? For
behold, The Fashioner was portrayed before
your eyes, Yeshua The Messiah, when he was
crucified.
............

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
You stupid people of Galatia! Who put you
under an evil spell? Wasn't Christ Jesus'
crucifixion clearly described to you?

..............

New Living Translation (©2007)
Oh, foolish Galatians! Who has cast an evil spell
on you? For the meaning of Jesus Christ's
death was made as clear to you as if you had
seen a picture of his death on the cross.

......

How does this verse support your stand that the apostle paul made a wooden cross and used it in worship??.......

I tire for you o ITALO .........

The apostle paul had clearly explained all about Jesus and reminded the Jews amongst the gentiles who were there in galatia about how Jesus died and how they should not relapse into the beggarly elementary things which they had abandoned earlier to follow Christ.......read galatians 4:9-11....

Does this verse say the early christians erected the cross ,manufactured rosaries and made marys image all in the name of worshipping God??....

SMH!!!!!.....

Enigma: But plappville if you can say all of these, then what is your problem or fight with "Trinitarians" ---- you are not much different from them afterall!

The bit that I've bolded in blue is basically saying the same thing as the "Trinitarians".

The bit that I've bolded in red will need adjustment. The "Trinitarians" put it this way: the Father is one Person, Jesus is one Person but both of them are of one Being or of one substance or of one essence ---- so they are not "two separate Beings".





Notice that I have marked the word "Being" in red three times; from the point of view of the "Trinitarians", the word "Being" should be replaced with "Person".

Consider the words of that song:

Holy Holy Holy
Lord God Almighty
. . . .
God in Three Persons
Blessed Trinity.

SMH!!!!!!

italo: For me it is not a nice discussion o, pardon me. I can't be having a "nice discussion" when I think someone is being hypocritical with issues that can make or mar other people's souls.

Just read Matthew 23 to see what Jesus had to say about hypocrites.

I think those were some of Jesus' harshest comments and they weren't addressed to murderers or thieves or fornicators, not even to idol worshippers, they were addressed to hypocrites.

I have only love for everyone but hatred for sin and error.

See o!!!!!!!!!!.........

No vex na......

My point is where precepts are not laid down we should not act presumpteously...this is what I always tell you......

If you have to imitate Joshua and moses wait until Yahweh or his son Jesus commands you to make images of mary and the cross in order to use them in worship......

italo: You are trying to prove that you understood my post by you are only succeeding in showing that you still don't understand my post. You didn't even read it thoroughly so how can you understand. If this is the way I read the mis-read and misunderstand the Bible, perhaps I would be a 'Jehovah's witness' too.

Let me show that you didn't even read through my post.

Nowhere did I say that the cross is the power of God. I said St Paul said Christ crucified is the power of God. But you made up what you wanted to make up so that you can disprove it.

Perhaps you might want to tell me what was portrayed before the eyes of the Galatians in Gal 1:1...assuming it is not a crucifix.

Thanks for the correction...

But I still don't know how galatians 1:1 and 1 corinthians you quoted supports your stand on the fact that the early christians erected the image of the cross as a medium for worship....

This is galatians 1:1....

New International Version (©1984)
Paul, an apostle--sent not from men nor by
man, but by Jesus Christ and God the Father,
who raised him from the dead--
.........

New Living Translation (©2007)
This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not
appointed by any group of people or any human
authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by
God the Father, who raised Jesus from the
dead.


I don't see how people been reminded of Christs ressurection by the Father would mean they carved the cross and hung them in there homes or make rosaries that would be used for worship....

No scripture supports your making the cross and using it for worship....

No apostle or early christians used any carved image....no one!!!!!

Zikkyy: Okay. I be think say na fight una dey

Lol...no o.....

Na so me and italo discussion dey be...e go be like we dey fight kong fu....lol...