₦airaland Forum

Lord_Reed: First off, read this:

then read this:

Then tell me how this event could possibly be any other time than at the time of His death.

Why would He need to preach to fallen angels? Was it for them He died?

Then of what use is the ressurection of Jesus if he was able to escape from the grave to visit spirits in prison??

It was after Jesus' ""ressurection"" he visited those spirits in prison,not while he was in the grave........

It seems you people barely understand the meaning of the word ""ressurection"".......

What is ressurection??......

Reyginus: Weak dodge.

You call it weak dodge??

When adam died the breath of life that made him a living soul was no longer in Him.....

And so the dust he was made from,was the dust he returned to ..........

Dust to dust bro.....

Reyginus: That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

Can you please compare matthew 25:41 and jude 7??....

1....Matthew 25:41
American King James Version
Then shall he say also to them on the left hand,
Depart from me, you cursed, into ""everlasting
fire"", prepared for the devil and his angels:

2....
King James Version (KJV)
7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities
about them in like manner, giving themselves
over to fornication, and going after strange
flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering
the vengeance of ""eternal fire""

Sodom and gomorah was an example of those who suffered the vengeance of ""eternal fire""......

If satan and his angels would suffer the same(eternal or everlasting fire) that sodom and gomorah under went,then ofcus we know what the end result would be......we know sodom and gomarrah isn't still burning till this moment.....

Sodom and gomorah was brought to nothing,completely destroyed....so it will be with satan and his cohorts......

Reyginus: That's not the question.
If you insist that grave is hell, what part of the nature of man stay buried? That aside.
If their is eternal torment like you would want me believe, what is this passage talking about. Mattew 25:41

You should ask what part of adam stayed buried in HELL...I think that will answer your question........


And it seems you've been mistaken me for some one else.......

I don't believe in a literal torment of wrong doers in a fiery place,I believe in total destruction......

Reyginus: .

And what is it??

That people would be literally tormented day and night in a fiery HELL and that there smoke will continue to rise up forever??.....

Logicboy03: This thread is hilarious.


Christians ask the funniest things


-Is it a sin to self-service?

That got me laughn too

Ubenedictus: d. I've got news for u guyz eternal punishment is as real as temporal suffering, airbrushing it wont help.

From this your statement you are indirectly telling us that God is the cause of everybody's temporal suffering right now on earth.....abi??......

For you to say that"" eternal torment"" is as real as ""temporal suffering"" is so preposterous.....you just completely pÀinted God the evil guy who keeps on suffering peoplÉ for all eternity......


Even the now suffering we experience today has an end when we die......so why insinuate God would suffer persons for all eternity??....


So I'll ask you::::

1...Who is the cause of our temporal sufferiÑgs??

2......Who will be the cause of everlasting torment and suffering??

obadiah777: VERY TRUE. ECCLESISTES 12 VS 7. HOWEVER THE ENERGY IS NOT TRANSFORMED. WATCH THIS

2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35 For after death shall the judgment come, when we shall live again: and then shall the names of the righteous be manifest, and the works of the ungodly shall be declared. AFTER DEATH > JUDGEMENT > THEN YOU LIVE AGAIN. MY POINT IS, AND I RESPECT YOUR OPINION, BUT I DONT THINK SPIRITS EVER GET COMPLETELY DESTROYED. SPIRITS ARE HUMANS BUT WITHOUT THE BODY. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE DO THEY GET DESTROYED. I HAVE NOT SEEN ANYWHERE IN THE BIBLE WHERE IT SAYS SPIRITS ARE TOTALLY ANNIHILATED AFTER SECOND DEATH.

Now the question is:::::

In ecclesiastes 12:7 what is the" spirit" that returns back to God who gave it??

And please which bible chapte® and verse is this 2 ESDRAS 14 VS 35??

obadiah777: VERY TRUE. HOWEVER THE SPIRIT IS ENERGY. ENERGY CANT BE DESTROYED.

That energy goes back to God who is the source of it.....:-)

obadiah777: *PUFF* JUST VANISH INTO THIN AIR LIKE DAT ? EVEN PROFESSOR PELLER CANNOT PULL THAT KIND OF TRICK MY BROTHER

Lol....

Dust he was and to dust he did return.....

Adam is nothing else but dust.....

Freksy: Guy, I don't understand you. In other words, do you mean if Adam did not sin all men would still be subject to physical death but remain alive spiritually?

A very good sweet question......

They forget adam died both ways...

Both physically and spiritually....

In all adam ""DIED""

Ceased to exist.....

Mr_Anony: Reading Revelations 20, there is one thing we know for sure that will happen to the false prophet, the antichrist and the devil; they will be tormented forever.
Next to join them in the lake of fire are death and hades. We are told that the the state of being thrown into the lake of fire is the second death.
I hold that Revelations personifies death and hades (my understanding is that you don't think they are personified but rather you interpret it as the concept of death itself being annihilated)
After that, people whose names are not written in the book of life get thrown in lake and experience the second death too. If you hold that death does not exist anymore, how do these people now die? (this should be a pointer to you that the definition of the second death cannot be the same as what you nominally know as dying).
If the devil is to be tormented forever, I see no reason why sinners who the bible makes it clear that they will share the same inheritance with him will somehow become exempt from his suffering.
My point is simple. The second death is defined as eternal torment in the lake of fire.

Ask yourself: Why would Jesus hint at suffering after physical death at all if the notion is entirely false?


Please quote a particular verse and I'll try and find the Greek of it.

How on earth would you tell me death and Hell are personified??

How else do you think the last enemy ""DEATH"" would be brought to nothing if not being thrown in the lake of Fire..??

Can you please juxtapose revelation 20:14 where"" death"" is said to be thrown into the lake of fire and revelation 21:4 where we are told that ""Death"" would be no more??

Let's read revelation 21:4...
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And God shall wipe away all tears from their
eyes; and there shall be no more"" death"",
neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there
be any more pain: for the former things are
passed away.

.....

Also compare 1 corinthians 15:26..
American King James Version
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is
""death"".


......
For you to say"" death"" is personified and so would be tormented literally alongside satan and his cohorts forever would be the greatest lie ever told.....that bible you are holding never supports your view.....

If you had noticed death and hades are the last of Gods enemies.......

Revelation 20 clearly shows that ""death and hades"" were the last enemies to be thrown into the lake of fire....satan even was thrown into the lake of fire before death...death and hades was the last......that agrees with 1 corinthians 15:26 that calls ""death"" the last enemy.....

And we all know from 1 corinthians 15:26 what the fate of ""death"" is.....total destruction...

Anything or anybody that is thrown into the lake of fire faces complete ""destruction""......

Now thats the point you have to understand....

For you to be dodging this lucid truth by personifying death has got me worried......

I think you should read 1 corinthians 15:24-28 critically,it would help you a lot.....

If you would understand that ""death"" is the last of Gods enemy,then you wouldn't have to worry about how every other thing that would be thrown into the lake of fire would experience death and total destruction....

DEATH is last on the list of things/persons to face destruction.....

Mr anony embrace truth...its staring right at you......

Mr_Anony: Wrong. If it is a mere literal grave, why then would the bible make references to the fire of it?

I want you to go back and check out the greek word that was rendered HELL fire in the KJV.......

And let's discuss it......

Mr_Anony: The nature of the devil's destruction is him in torment forever. (see Rev 20:10) Don't try to airbrush it out.

And verse 14 tells you it is the second death.....DEATH!!!!!!!!.....

If satan does not die then God lied to us.....

I have shown from other scriptures to show explicitly what eternal fire symbolizes....but you are closing your eyes to it....

DEATH and HELL itself will be thrown into that same lake of fire that satan is......

I want you to tell me how you would seperate the purnishment of"" death and hell" from satan and his cohorts there in the lake of fire.........

..........

Now I'll tell you this::::......what ever is the fate of ""death and hell"" would also be the same with satan and his cohorts....

Because they are all occupants in that LAKE of fire......

Reyginus: No. I get . The description is not what matters for now, but its existence.
Except you are speaking of a literal grave?

Yeah that is what HELL is....(literal grave).....

Reyginus: As it stands now, it seems we all have agreed to the existence of a place like hell.
The problem now is the nature of hell.
Anybody who is yet to agree should indicate.

HELL is the common grave of man......

It seems you've not been getting the point....

Mr_Anony: And this is the point I keep hammering on: The Second Death is Eternal Torment and Eternal Separation from God it is not an annihilation/diappearance.

What other seperation does a person like satan need from God??

Has satan not being seperate from GOD for aeons??......remember satan will undergo this second death(lake of fire) alongside wrongdeors....you mean satan will be alife forever too??

Second death is total destruction .....that is the penalty dished out to satan and his cohorts.....

Death without the hope of rejuvenation/ressurection......DEATH!!!!!!........

Like I said earlier the nations of EDOM and babylon under went the purnishment or torment of eternal fire....

They are perfect examples of what awaits satan and his cohorts.......

If the person of satan is granted immortality then it means satan has proved God a liar.....

obadiah777: HEAVY WEIGHTS DUKING IT OUT. AM ENJOYING YALL. KEEP BRINGING OUT THESE POSTS. I MAY NEED TO GET SOME WINE FOR THIS HERE LOL. HOLY-TEXTUAL-PUGILISM. HTP.

Lol......

Stay of that wine...I thought your whole mouth had been cut off and thrown into gehenna....lol..

I've got orange juice for YA......

We are aLl here to learn my bro......

frosbel: If immortal souls have bodies -- fingers, toes, eyes, etc.. - based upon Luke 16 and the parable of Lazarus and the rich man... then what use is there for a resurrected body? If the soul has a physical appearance, with human appendages, then the body rotting in the grave is of no further use, and reuniting the immortal soul with its resurrected body at a future date would be useless.

William Tyndale, who first translated the Bible into English made the point:
"And ye, in putting them (the dead) in heaven, hell and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection....if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good a case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of a resurrection.... The true faith puteth forth the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshy doctrine of philosophers together: things so contrary that they cannot agree....And because the fleshy-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."

William Tyndale was able to see what most in our day cannot. A resurrection of those who are still alive (in heaven or hell) is no resurrection at all but an empty show.

Consider what the Apostle Paul had to say concerning the necessity of the resurrection:
But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 1 Cor 15:13-18

The belief that the righteous and wicked go to their reward in heaven or hell not only destroys the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, but it destroys the core doctrine of the necessity of Jesus' death. If Abraham and Lazarus and all the ancient faithful were rewarded for their lives of righteousness BEFORE Jesus was even born and died, then why did Jesus have to die in the first place? Obviously Abraham got to "paradise" without Jesus, so why does one need Jesus in the first place?

Source

Sweeet points.......

Perfect points.....

Pertinent points....

obadiah777: OYEDEPO

Lwkmd!!!!!.....

Buzugee o....you won't kill me....

Mr_Anony: I agree that the more verses the better. All I am saying is that verse do not nullify other verses, rather they complement them. Also neither I nor Ihedinobi necessarily hold that Hell is a literal fire however we hold that the torment is undeniable. Please endeavor to get our position right before your critique.

And that's exactly what we are trying to do here...letting the scriptures explain itself.....that's how it works bro.....

One thing I know about your position is that both the righteous and unrighteous would spend eternity in different abodes....isn't it??

Now that's what I am against.....it is either one gains everlasting life or ceases to exist(perish).......that's how it has always been right from adam and eve.......

Mr_Anony: The question before us is what is the nature of that destruction? It is eternal torment and chaos not annihilation or disappearance so to speak.

But from other verses it is well proven that torment in an eternal fire signifies eternal destruction....complete obliteration of the object,nation or person under consideartion....

Mr_Anony: No they are not. They are irrelevant questions. For instance, you didn't ask the name of the paralytic that Jesus told to take up his bed and walk in order to prove whether it was literal or not. A name is irrelevant to a story's literalism.

How would you tell me questions like
[1..Where is adam and eve??
2..Was abraham in heaven when Jesus uttered that parable??]Etc....
Are not relevant to a story's literalism??....

Even if we decide to shun the name of the rich man there are many thougth provoking questions that should be asked to verify if Jesus' parable is to be taken literally or not....

Try to look into those questions,not discarding them....then you can rationally come to a conclusion.....

mkmyers45: Buzugee drop me here o

Hahahahahaha......

Lord_Reed: On what basis are you making that change? Where is the evidence?



Here you go:

Lol.....

So while in the grave Christ went to visit the spirits in prison??is that what you are saying??

If Christs spirit had already started roving about before his ressurection,then of what use was God ressurecting him again??

Why ressuect someone who doesn't need ressurection??


Chei I don die ooooo.............

obadiah777: HEHE YOU KNOW THE KJV IS ONE VERSION OF THE BIBLE THAT YOU RESIST BECAUSE OF THE COMPLEXITY OF THE ENGLISH. I KNOW I RESISTED IT FOR A LONG TIME. BUT ONCE YOU EMBRACE IT, IT TAKES ROUGHLY ABOUT ONE WEEK TO GET ACCUSTOMED TO THE ENGLISH BEING USED AND THEN AFTER THAT YOU CAN NEVER GO BACK TO THE NEWER VERSIONS BECAUSE THE NEWER VERSIONS ARE CLEAR DISTORTIONS FROM THE ORIGINAL GREEK AND HEBREW TEXTS

The english isn't really my problem.....

Certain words weren't rendered right...after all the KJV isn't infallible is it??it didn't fall from heaven......lol.....

But in all I got a Kjv by my side.....its a constant of proportionality....lol....

Ihedinobi: I only asked who you thought was the subject of those two prophecies Anyway, you said Babylon.

You know, if you guys stopped thinking for a minute that someone is trying to defeat you in an argument, you might actually start saying things that really make sense. The question was not a trap. It was meant to see what you really know about prophecies. For instance, for whom were the words in Ezekiel 28 about being full of wisdom and beauty etc etc meant? That would help me deal with Isaiah 34:9, 10 without ripping Scriptures apart.

Don't bother about teaching me, just provide simple answers and I'll do my best to understand you.

Edited for word correction.

Ok sorry my comrade....I"m loyal......

I just added those few details to just give an over view of that chapter......

We are both learning....thanks.....

The KJV man....lol...

I love the translation too...

Ubenedictus: he didnt just mention 'wife'. He said God can only create he cant beget because he doesnt have a wife. That is nonesense

Ubenidictus why u dey talk like this??

I was only trying to tell you that you are left with 2 option...

1....Its either Jesus was created...

2...Or God married a wife and gave birth to Him(Jesus).....

Its up to you to discern how and what the word begot,beget means......

I think I can aDd a 3rd option..

3.....Or God adopted Jesus from another God who is greater than both the Son and the Father........

Its up to you.......

Because it is clear Jesus' existence and life's sustenance was caused and has a source......

cyrexx: Too bad. Cos i am far away in one of the big cities in the southwestern zone of Nigeria. But notwithstanding, we can still manage to do some e-jollification.


Cheers, bro

E-jollification??lmao.....

Don't worry...we'll drink some rum eeeeeely....lol....

cyrexx:

LOL

so where can collect it, make we jollificate?

If you dey the niger delta zone I go locate you come......lol.....

Did you consider verse 14 of that same chapter??

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And death and hell were cast into the lake of
fire. This is the second death.
....

Satan would be completely annihilated and destroyed ........

Satan wouldn't be given the gift of immortality.....

seriallink: Thanks bro.



Thanks for the passages you posted. But I still think he is allowed in and out of Heaven anytime, according to what the book of Job says!

The occurence in revelation happened after Jesus' ressurection and ascension....

So there is no way satan has access to the heavens any longer...he has been cast down for good....

cyrexx: i hope you know that that statement was originally a spoken word by Jesus, not a written word. The comma was inserted later by scholars based on their understanding.
The comma could as well be placed elsewhere and the verse could equally have read like this
"I say unto you today, you shall be with me in paradise"

Cyrexx you are a very good bible student.....

I go buy you 1 carton of beer......:-)