₦airaland Forum

Ihedinobi: I'm so glad that I'm still following this thread. Image123, may the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be multiplied to you. Mr Anony, my beloved twin, may the Lord increase you evermore in wisdom. Reyginus, beloved brother, may you be strengthened even more with the might of Christ in the inward man. The rest of my brothers here, may the Lord bless you.

I think that there is a connection between Matthew 27:52-53, 1 Peter 3:19-20 and the question of what happens between death and the last day.

And what is your point from matthew and 1 peter??...

Eternal torment or??

Mr_Anony: As I have always maintained, it may or may not be a literal fire, it may or may not be "day and night" as we know it, but one thing is sure: The wicked will suffer for eternity just as the righteous will rejoice for eternity.

For the wicked and satan to suffer excrutiating torture eternally it means that God will have to preserve them alive forever to keep torturing them....

And that goes contrary to the scriptures and Gods standard....

LIFE is a gift and not a ""purnishment""

It is either one is dead forever or that one keeps living forever.......

Satan cannot live forever...immortality is what God gives to those who served him faithfully and not to satan and his cohorts.....

Mr_Anony: Oh by the way, I have addressed Ezekiel 28 a number of pages back. You probably skipped it. Interestingly that prophecy is not "literally" talking about satan but about Tyre and Sidon. It is interesting how you don't contest how "vividly" it talks about satan but are quick write of Revelations as too figurative to mean anything.



"

For you to deny that the dirge directed to the human ""kings of tyre"" doesn't have a parallel to the course taken by the spirit son of God who first sinned who is now called ""satan"" would be one big lie.....

There are so many parallels....
How would you actually run away from these clear verses..

Ezekiel 28:13-15....
13 Thou hast been in"" Eden the garden of God""; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the"" anointed cherub"" that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast"" perfect"" in thy ways from the daythat thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee

.........

Let me point out the similarities...

1.....Eden the garden of God....that certainly corresponds to biblical information concerning satan the devil,who became puffed up with pride,and linked to the serpent in EDEN...

2.....""Annointed cherub"".....
We all know who cherubs are and ofcus satan was one........infact the king of tyre couldn't have literally been a cherub......satan was one...

3.....Verse 15 says ""thou was perfect in thy ways from the daythat thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.....

Satan was infact created a perfect being....satan was a perfect angel before his rebellion........the kings of tyre literally speaking weren't created perfect,they all were filled with adamic sin.....

...........

I know you would deny these parallels because the thought of satan being"" destroyed"" just as the kings of tyre and sidon were is so far off from your perception......

Jesus and his apostles never spoke or emphasized on tithes neither did they recieve tithes.....

Mr_Anony: Interesting, I think you need to brush up your english literature skills (or better yet, look up the meaning of personification in a dictionary)
The moment you start giving an abstract concept personal attributes like it being an enemy who is defeated and thrown into a fire, you have personified it. (For reference compare this to how Love is personified in 1 Corinthians 13).

But you were the one who indeed personified those abstracts terms ""death"" and ""Hell"
.......All I did was tell you that for "" death"" to be thrown into the lake of fire,it only means that the lake of fire is symbolic and not a literal location were persons would be burning for all eternity.......remember I always stood by the fact that the lake of fire is a symbol of complete destruction....you were the one not agreeing.....
The bible has many times refered to ""death""as if it was a person,,.but we all know death still remains what it is..""DEATH""...and death would be thrown in the lake of fire.......completely brought to nothing............

Mr_Anony: It is very simple, in Revelations 21:4 God is talking to those who have been redeemed and telling them that they will not die anymore neither will anyone weep or cry anymore or be in pain because they have passed on to eternal life.

Interestingly, we are not told anywhere that "Sorrow", "Tears" and "Pain" have been cast into any fire somewhere. You just managed to single out "death" to force into your theology.

Now my question is why will ""death "" be no more??where did death go to??I thought death would continue to be purnished in a fiery Hell..living forever...right??....a previous chapter showed you how death was thrown into the lake of fire,and now @ revelation 21:4 it is said death will be no more....how does that sound to you??....what does that tell you about the lake of fire??its a symbol of complete destruction and obliteration.....but you would continue to argue because you are bent on clinging to your eternal torment dogma.....
You asked why wasn't pain,sorrow and tears thrown into the lake of fire??....

It is simple...adamic death is the cause and the reason why we experience pain,sorrow and tears.........when death is destroyed symbolically the rest of its progeny would be gone forever too as well...

Mr_Anony: Again, you are also personifying death by calling it an enemy to be destroyed.

You know what, I agree with you when we talk about destruction. All I keep pointing at is the nature of this destruction we are talking about. Is it a disappearance or is it eternal torment or as Ihedinobi put it eternal chaos.

We are told clearly that the devil will be tormented forever. Next we are told that death and hades will be thrown into the fire.

Let us even say that death is not personified i.e. it is the concept of death that is eliminated, wouldn't this also mean that those whose names are not found in the book of life will equally be incapable of dying?

Why are you so hellbent on forcing the same fate for an abstract concept upon distinct beings? Your reading lacks consistency because if the devil which is a distinct being suffers eternally, it also follows that the sinner who is equally a distinct being should have the same fate.

I know hell is a very terrible thing and I wish it didn't exist but then what I won't do is to force the scripture to say something else just because I am uncomfortable with hell.

By the way, try not to read me wrong. I have never said that the occupants of hell would "burn" in the literal sense of the word. What I have insisted is that the suffering (in whatever form it will take) is for sure and it is forever. That is the nature of the second death.

I didn't personify death...the bible did....death is called an enemy in the bible......


And that enemy death is to be destroyed,not literally tormented forever....


That's how serious the concept of death is...it has plagued mankind for too long,and that is what Gods king designate would do away with.....

Wether death is personified or not it still remains ""DEATH"".......

I will like to quote what you wrote down in your earlier posts...

""I hold that Revelations personifies death
and hades (my understanding is that you
don't think they are personified but rather
you interpret it as the concept of death
itself being annihilated)""
.......

You were even the one insisting that revelation personified death....and now you are accusing me of personifying ""death""
........
............
Fortunately the bible does personify death too....
But wether death is personified or not,it still remains death.....you can keep comparing 1 corinthians 15:24-28,revelation 21:4,revelation 20:14 until you come to an agreement that the lake of fire is a symbol of total destruction.....


Those persons whose names are found in the book of life ofcus will receive the gift of everlasting life(immortality)...why would there names be found in the book of life if not to gain eternal life??.....or did you expect they be thrown into the lake of fire to be destroyed??

Now these are my points that you seem to not understand ......

1....The lake of fire is a symbol of complete destruction and not a place......

That is why both abstract and real elements are thrown into it....

The minute you understand this, your whole misconceptions and mysteries would come to an end..........

The problem you guys are having is that ,you feel that the lake of fire is literal and does have a location.........

No!!!!!!!!!!!.....

Its a symbol of complete and absolute destruction,annihilation, etc............



That is why
Satan,(person)
Demons(persons),
Death(abstract),
Wrongdoers(persons),
Wild beast(abstract),
Hades(grave)(abstract)
Etc

Are thrown into it.....

...........

Mr anony you can do better........

The gift God gives is immortality,and that gift is what satan and his cohorts can never attain........

Image123: @Anony

Well said.

@ijawk

you seem to be attacking something else outside the post, perhaps your preconceived notion of my personality. The Bible teaches that when a man dies, his flesh or body decays(goes to the dust), but that the spirit goes up.

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
if you notice, there is a separation. that is what death is, a separation.


i didn't ask for this, i wonder why you are bringing it up. i agree with most of what is written here. though souls can also refe to other things. this is not a thread for soul education though.



in addition to my reply to frosb on this issue, your post, and the relevance to this thread. The remaining points to be grasped are that dead people are not inactive, but have parts that can hear, speak, receive robes, and be told to rest. Why would they be told to rest if it was automatic for all dead people. And what of the other posts that i gave you guys showing that dead people are not inactive, like the passages from Ecclesiastes, and the words of Jesus.



Many things don't have an exact explanation in the Bible. If i asked you to define hell, or heaven, or God, or born again, we could have a thread for each with many views. So don't derail the thread. if you so need the definition, you may open another thread. I have already stated that paradise, abraham's bosom, under the altar, sleeping in Jesus are all phrases used to describe the state of dead believers. They are all the same thing expressed in different names to show us a more thorough view. just like god's Word is described in different ways, as a fire, a hammer, truth, light, sword etc to teach us different aspects of describing it. No sane christian gets up and says is the Word of God fire or sword or water, choose one. Or is God a buckler, or a sun, or love or holy, choose one or stop confusing us. That's why we emphasize reading things in totality, the Word of God, people's posts, etc.


Dead christians are WITH CHRIST, get that into your skull.
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.


Abraham and co are not dead. God is not a God of the dead. They are conscious. Elijah is conscious, Moses is conscious. they are all a cloud of WITNESSES that can see us. they can't fully participate, hence the need for a later resurrection where they will be changed and given heavenly bodies.

1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The soul and spirit will be joined to a spiritual body. It is resurrection that takes them from under the altar. that is what they were essentially told to wait for.

Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
The souls lived and reigned with Christ after they were resurrected. Of course, you are expected to say the souls are blood and they are symbolic with joining the blood of the lamb and metaphoric to abel and levi and zacharias, and all other cock and bull you want to present next. Please, try to learn something from the thread.

The problem you are having right now is that you are just confused......

First ressurection or last ressurection .RESSURECTION is RESSURECTION....

If the saints are not ressurected they have no business leaving there graves to strole in the heavens.......

The spirit that goes back to God after ones death,is the ""breathe of life"".....

This is onÉ simple truth you guys have been finding hard to grasp..........

All persons that die,there spirits(breath of life) returns to God the source of it.....

If not by yoÙr definitioÑ of spirit§,it will mean the spirit of all wrongdoers too are in heaven......

Abraham and co are all dead and unconscious as we speak......

God is a God of the living in the sense that he ressurects all those who were faithful to Him back to life.....ressurection is the reason why God is called the God of the living,not because when we die our spirits start running around the place.........get that pagan supersticious belief off your system..........

And we had all confirmed from the scriptures long ago that abraham and all faithful patriarchs are not in heaven(john 3:13),rather they are in there graves awaiting ressurection.......

And I can see how you skillfully dodged the pertinent question I asked....

I asked if underneath the altar in heaven where those souls are found is the paradise you've been referring to....??

Your answer becomes shaky......

That is why I gave you a biblical answer to tell you what the souls of those saints that is underneath the altar symbolizes....but again you refuse to learn..........

If only you knew that all what John saw at revelation were future events you won't be here mis-construing verses to suit your belief that spirits of the dead(which is the samÉ as that person) are there in the heavens even before there ressurection...........

If Jesus himself had to wait for his ressurection before ascending to the heavens,who are we humans to run away to heaven before we are ressurected??.....

Remember what returns to God after we return to dust,is the breath of life which was given to us by God and not some spirit who is a replica of us......

If not you must start explaining to all of us where the spirit of adam is.........in heaven or still in the grave??

Because all spirits(wether that of the good or bad) return back to God after ones death......

[quote author=frosbel][/quote]Good question...

Why must the ""spirit"" of all(both good and bad) go back to God the source of it......??

Why doesn't some spirits like our colleagues here are insinuating go to Hell.....??

This is simply because they have not really defined what the ""spirit""that returns to God is.......

Ubenedictus: egba mi o! Ijawkid y are u puting words in my mouth, i talked about a reality, i didnt mention anything like "cause". Ijawkid these are your words, i tag them back at ya.

you are d person wu did, adam sin and brought temporal suffering on humanity by each man sin he make himself a debtor of divine justice


man

HehehÉhehehehe.......

The way u easily made eternal torment as real as mans temporal sufferings got me wondering...

Because according to you guys God would be the one tormenting those who wiLl be thrown in hell fire....abi??no be Him??

If God can torment one for all eternity,then it simply means God is the same one purnishing us now as we speak.......

Abi now God don good not to fit purnish us temporarily before the everlasting torment ??......

chukwudi44: @ogoamaka

Please baptism is same thing as born again.it is not just one of those ritual.Any unbaptised person is not born again no matter the no of verbal 'confessions' being made by that person.you must be baptised with water and receive the holy spirit before you are born again

You are correct.....

That is why persons or servants of God who existed before Jesu§ aren't born agains...

They never experienced baptism by water.....

Chukwu u correct joor......

Reyginus: haba! Sanu!

DE ZUAAAAA......lol

Many forget that immortality is a gift The almighty Gives.......

And that gift is what satan and his cohorts can never attain....

Reyginus: The head of the congregation of the word.
The Pope.

Oboy no do o.....

Reyginus: He came in human form but was he trully a 'man' by the things he did?

Jesus was a man when on earth...that was why he could bleed and die.....

With Gods power in Him Jesus could do all he did when on earth.....

Reyginus: Before you start joking around, where is your spirit now?

My spirit??

I no get o....rather it is Gods breath in me that is keeping me alive......

I aint a spirit,I am flesh and blood......

obadiah777: LOL YEAH HE A COOL BREDA. JUST MESSING WITH HIM. ME AND REYGINUS GO WAY BACK LIKE BABY AND DIAPERS

Lol....you too funny....

obadiah777: REYGINUS SPIRIT IS ROAMING AROUND SEEKING FOR WHOM TO DEVOUR

Lol.....

Abeg o......

Na only satan dey rove about seeking for whom to devour.....

Reyginus is my dear brother.....

obadiah777: WHAT IT DO BRAH ? TRUST ALL IS WELL. FUNNY COMMENT

Lol....

Its really funny...

If hell is a place of torment then it means Jesus was tormented because Jesus went to Hell.......lol...

Abi??

This is what happens when sheol and hades are mistranslated as"" HELL""

Reyginus: Within. Yours?

Oh its within you??

And what is it doing??is it a seperate part of you that is you??

Its waiting to escape and rove about after you return to the ground abi??

SMH!!!!.......

Reyginus: Lolol. How can you compare the son of God with mere mortals?
He is not subject to the laws of hell.

Lol....now I got you....

Jesus was flesh and blood in order for his death to be sacrificial.....

Jesus was put to death in the flesh......and Jesus spent 3 good days in HELL just like every human would.....

If you always think HELL is a place of torment,then be ready to agree that Jesus was tormented in Hell.....

The KJV is what has landed each and every one in this wahala...

That's why I asked you if you are familiar with words like sheol and hades....those were the words that the KJV transliterated as HELL.......

We have read from revelation that both HELL(grave) which Jesus went to and death were thrown into the lake of fire.......

sheol and hades are the greek and hebrew words used in the scriptures,not HELL.....

Reyginus: Wonderful lecture.
Your mastery of using scriptures selectively knows no bound.
If we are same with beasts, that beasts must be tripartite in nature as well.
Like I asked initially, do animals have spirit?

Mr Reyginus where is your spirit right now as we speak??.......

Reyginus: You can do better.
Can someone be in hell and not be tormented?

Was Jesus tormented in Hell??

Since when ever you hear the word Hell,torment always runs through your hellish mind...lol.....

Image123: Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
In this passage, please note that some people had died, but their SOULS are at place called under the altar. These souls can actually speak, no, even cry aloud or shout. They are not totally unconscious. this period is BEFORE the Lord Judges, before judgement. these souls are even given white robes. they are in a place of rest. This agrees with common thoughts of Resting in peace after death, and the position of Sleeping or been asleep. this is what is said in the scriptures of believers that die. they are safe in the arms of Jesus, in Abraham's bosom as it were, asleep, in paradise. they are entered into Rest, unlike the sinner who has no rest. there is no peace for the sinner, infact, he runs even when nobody is pursuing.

We are told from revelations that underneath this altar are "" the souls of them[/b] that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:""..............
Because of your pre-concieved notion that "" the soul"" is a disembodied part of a Human that escapes at one's death,you tend to conclude that definitly the dead are concious of there surrounding.....
I'll like to take you to the scriptures for us to see what the word ""soul"" stands for......

John knew that the soul or ""life"" is symbolized by the"" blood"",and when the priests at the ancient Jewish tabernacle slaughtered a sacrificial animal.they sprinkled the blood ""round about upon the altar"" or poured it ""at the base of the altar of burnt offering""...

We can see this from leveticus 4:7 and 17:11-12 respectively
........
Leviticus 4:7
And the priest shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar of sweet incense before the LORD, which is in the tabernacle of the congregation; and shall pour all the blood of the bullock atthe"" bottom of the altar of the burnt offering"", which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
.............
Leviticus 17:11-12
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh [is] in the ""blood"": and Ihave given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul.
Lev 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat"" blood"", neither shall anystranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

................
So the life of those animals was in there ""blood"".....but here we are talking about souls or blood of these particular servants of God been seen underneath a symbolic altar in heaven....why??
..Because their deaths are viewed as sacrificial.....

Let's read phillipians 3:9-10....
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;............
..........
So john in a real sense was correct to had seen the souls( blood)of these matyrs underneath that symbolic altar.........these faithful ones in their day were matyred for their zealous ministry in upholding Gods word........

..............

In what sense were these souls crying out to GOD to avenge those who killed them??

Frosbel gave a perfect rebuttal by using ABEL as an example.......

ABels blood cried out after cain murdered Him....genesis 4:10-11 has that record......

It was not that abels blood literally was uttering words,rather abel had died as an innocent victim and justice called out for his murderer to be purnished.........

Similarly those christian matyrs are innocent,and in justice they must be avenged.......

These are the points you have to grasp..
1...There souls signifies there blood which was spilled
2....There souls(blood) being underneath that symbolic altar shows those faithful ones died a sacrificial death..
3....There souls crying out just as abels own did,shows they are waiting for justice to be done to there murderers...

Image123: 1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
When believers die, they are in a place of rest. They are in paradise. they are sleeping IN JESUS. i'm highlighting IN JESUS so that you can see that they are in 'heaven', as you know, Jesus is in heaven. like the souls under the altar in heaven, they are in heaven. Hear apostle Paul
Phi 1:21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Paul knew that death for him was not inactivity, it was a gain. A place to be. A better place than this earth. paradise, Abraham's bosom is a better place than this earth, even though it is not the final destination. We'll still be raptured and changed.
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Paul knew that if he died, he would immediately BE WITH CHRIST. He said it is far better. it is not an empty state of waiting, it is a place of RESTing for a while. This is where believers go when they die. When sinners die, they go to a place of torment, darkness and weeping, hell. i expect some folks to deceive themselves as if they've not read the previous posts i made, and make remarks on a few sentences or phrases i just made. that's the same way they treat God's Word, in part, cherry picking, not in the whole.

Now please can you define paradise??

Is it the altar that is the paradise or what??

In case you've forgotten these faithful christians were to experience exactly the same ressurection Jesus underwent......

Until Jesus was ressurected he was no where to be found in heaven.......neither was Jesus running around the whole place aimlessly from his Grave...he waited until his Father ressurected Him...

Don't expect anything different when it comes to the ressurection of those who also died in the same manner Jesus did.....

Image123: To be fair on my pesin Solomon, lets briefly look at Eccl.
Ecclesiastes as a whole should be taken in its proper context. It is the words of the preacher, and the core message he is giving is that this world/life is vanity. And that each individual should be wise BECAUSE OF THE COMING JUDGEMENT. He is not trivialising judgement and saying sinners will die and nothing will happen, then God will wake them up and they will die again. No, He is warning man to see himself as fallen, just like or close to the animal. he should not be overcome by pride or learning. There is nothing new. here is a cross section

Ecc 1:1 The words of the Preacher, the son of David, king in Jerusalem.
Ecc 1:2 Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity.
If you read the book, it will be good you note the contexts, and several hints to show that man is limited, and the unOBVIOUS context of "upon the earth" or "under the sun". It is not everything that applies under the sun/on the earth that applies in the afterlife or in Heaven or in Hell.


Ecc 3:17 I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
i've highlighted some not so obviousES. One, he is going to theme on Judgement and Vanity, God will judge. Then he tells man, he is but a man. he is in a fallen state. he will die like an animal dies, like the fish doesn't know when it will die. he is not so intelligent or preeminent as to know even this basics. Please note the last verse where he makes a distinction. Man is not completely equal to animals. Animals won't fac judgement or go to heaven and hell. he says 'the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward'
for time and space purpose,
Ecc 8:6 Because to every purpose there is time and judgment, therefore the misery of man is great upon him.
there is your judgement and vanity theme again,

Ecc 11:9 Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment.
Up here again, and

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
and there again. So to some other passages to help with our thread,


Ecc 6:3 If a man beget a hundred children, and live many years, so that the days of his years be many, and his soul be not filled with good, and also that he have no burial; I say, that an untimely birth is better than he.
Ecc 6:4 For he cometh in with vanity, and departeth in darkness, and his name shall be covered with darkness.
Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good: do not all go to one place?
this passage tells us that there is life after death. he compares the state of rest of the dead, this hath more rest than the other
What the passage is saying, incase you are not too accustomed to the style of writing is this. If a man achieves much on earth, lives many years, gives birth to many children, and yet loses his soul(in the words of Jesus) i.e his soul not filled with good. he says a dead baby is better than him. for the old man came in with vanity and departed earth in darkness. but the baby has not seen the sun or known anything. He has MORE REST than the other.do not all go to one place?, as in, is everybody not going to die. But one has MORE REST than the other. they are not all just unconscious and inactive.

then He asks a question,
Ecc 6:12 For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?
who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun? Even Solomon did not know. But Jesus knew Still, we see Solomon used by divine inspiration to still reveal truths though with limited understanding.
Let me speak briefly on the star passage though,

Ecc 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun.
In summary, he is saying that after death, it is judgement. there is no repentance in the grave. there is no i'm sorry. It is like when you submit your answer in an exam. There is still hope for one who is alive, the living can still erase something, re-spell or shade something, but not the dead. the dead don submit answer as it were. there is nothing they can do again to get a reward. neither have they any more a reward. he is not literally saying they will not be rewarded again. Folks pick up know not any thing but won't pick up 'neither have they any more a reward'. They will ALL be rewarded ACCORDING TO their works. But once dead, there is no more love, or hatred or envy to demonstrate. nothing new to learn, you don buy am literally. they don't have a say, or any more a portion forever in any thing that is done under the sun. this is why he exhorts later on in the chapter that,

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Ecc 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
Ecc 9:12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. So please, stop misunderstanding my pal King Solomon. There is life after death, and hell awaits all sinners, whatever hell now means.

There is life after death after one is ressurected......

Don't you get it??

Ressurection is the word.....

David,abraham etc are all In there graves waiting until they are ressurected....

pastormustwacc: That was a parable now. Did you read my thread that Jesus did not go to heaven on friday? He was sleeping in the grave until God woke him up. And when Lazarus was dead, Jesus knowing he was dead said he was asleep.

And when the trumpet shall sound, did it say that the dead christians will come down from heaven? Must i go on before you understand?? hun?

You get sense well well......thumbs up....

Reyginus: He was in a grave for sure. But not in hell.
Hell is a place of torment. Is their any form of torture in the graves?
Compare it with what the nature of hell is.

Have you ever heard of the words sheol and hades before??

Bravo frosbel.....

This whole exposition is just perfect!!!!!.......

Acts 2:29 $ 34 hits the nail on the head........

This whole immortality of the soul/eternal roasting in a fire saga can't be over-discussed.....

Truths are scattered all over the bible for every one to see.......

It is either life or death.....

Reyginus: how can something which you claim has a limit have an eternal result?

I guess we are still discussing about sodom and gomorrah today as a lesson for the ungodly.....aren't we??

That's the effect........

Reyginus: The issue is not where they are now, but where they would be in the time to come.
If the grave is hell, that also entails that the righteous who have died are in hell as we speak.

Ofcus....righteous persons who have died are waiting in there graves(Hell,hades,sheol) waiting for when they'll be ressurected......

Oh yes they are in HELL waiting for ressurection......

Where do you think lazarus was before Jesus ressurected Him??....

cyrexx: hope you are not confusing an eternal duration in years with an eternal result of an action

Now this is perfect!!!!!!.....

I hope reygius can see this......

Reyginus: Gosh! This is ridiculous.
Tell me it's a joke.

Its not a joke man....

Its result will be everlasting..

That is why Jesus could still make reference to that city and its inhabitants.......

Reyginus: If I join you in this game we will end not discovering any truth.

I'm not here to play games bro.....

Traditions of men have made simple things turn into absurdities.......

If adam died why should I be here debating what happens to his offsprings when they die??

You should also start wondering where adam and eve are right now as we speak......

Where are they??.....

Reyginus: hmmm. We still have a long way to go. What is meaning of the words 'eternal' and 'everlasting'?

Eternal and everlasting means that the destructions of this elements,nations and individuals would never be forgotten....

That is what happened with sodom and gomorrah...while that city and its rebellious inhabitants were destroyed totally a long time ago,its still been talked about till this moment to serve as warning and to show that God would always bring an end to wickedness...

If you are still doubting that sodom and gomorrah experienced total complete destruction,but rather transcended to some fiery hot place to be literally tormented eternally hear what Jesus has to say about that city......

Read luke 17:29

American King James Version
But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom
it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and
""destroyed"" them all.

So Jesus and his apostles understood eternal fire to mean complete destruction and vice versa.......

Let's also see what peter says about the city of sodom and gomorrah...

2 peter 2:5-6

5 And spared not the old world, but saved
Noah the eighth person, a preacher of
righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the
world of the ungodly;
6 And [turning the cities of Sodom and
Gomorrha into ""ashes"" condemned them with an
overthrow, making them an ensample unto
those that after should live ungodly];


........

Sodom and gomorrah was turned and brought to ashes...

They were completely obliterated......

for you to think that that city after suffering complete burning,transcended to another fiery Hell to continue burning for all eternity would be madness ......

Reyginus: I called it a weak dodge for a purpose. You replied with the same scenario from which the question was caused.

And that question I asked you is suppose to answer the question you asked me.......

If you can answer what part of adam was buried or stayed in the grave then you've answered your question....

Reyginus: Very good. That goes to show that the punishment for sodom and gomorah was beyond the events that happened in the city. It transcended to hell. If the word 'eternal' is defined as a limit, it ceases to be original and lose meaning.

Transcended to hell??and I believe that is what your bible told you......

And How many times do I have to tell you that hell is grave??...

I want you to show me where and how sodom and gomorrah is still burning right now as we speak......

Bible truths are in front of you ,but you are still bent on believing in this literal eternal torment gibberish....

Sodom and gomorah and those who perpetrated evil in that city are no where to be found my bro....they faced everlasting and total destruction...........

And that is what satan and his cohorts will face....

It will be like telling us that all those in noahs day that were destroyed by the deluge are still floating somewhere in a watery HELL......