₦airaland Forum

italo: Show us where Christians used the Bible for worship in the Bible... Since you say you are talking about worship.

If you cannot show me, should we take it that using the Bible in worship has pagan origins?

I believe the holy spirit was not sent to play football with the apostles......

The early christians followed every principle and precept that was given to the apostles....

And I can't find mary worship as part of it......

I know you know when the use of marys image in worship started......you know the history..it has no link with the scriptures.........

Zikkyy: This man you no dey tire? It's either you are just having fun or you are a potential suicide bomber (you will be useful next time boko boys decides to blow up a catholic church).

I don't see how you will be able to convince italo & co with this your "if it ain't in the bible, it is a sin" approach. An act should not be considered a sin simply because it was not recorded in the bible. If you can show that the act is not in line with the teachings of Christ & the apostles, am sure they will agree with you.

Zikkky my bro...are you a catholic??....

I'm just having a nice discussion with my brothers...that aint bad....

italo: I did! Only you didn't understand a word of it.

E.g: I said St Paul called Christ crucified the "power of God" in 1 Cor 1:24.

...And you said I shouldn't call the "cross" the power of God.

This is 1 corinthians 1:24..

New International Version (©1984)
but to those whom God has called, both Jews
and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the
wisdom of God.
.....
New Living Translation (©2007)
But to those called by God to salvation, both
Jews and Gentiles, Christ is the power of God
and the wisdom of God.
.....
English Standard Version (©2001)
but to those who are called, both Jews and
Greeks, Christ the power of God and the
wisdom of God.
..........


I don't see from that scripture the ""cross"" being the power of God....or is it my sight that is impaired??

Christ is the one called the power and wisdom of God and not the ""CROSS""....

Is the cross Jesus??

Italo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hmmmm.....

italo: Why do you feel it is better or easier to argue with a Catholic than an Atheist?

Afterall, you say that we are pagans and don't believe in the Bible too. You say that we worship Mary, Saints, statues, Crucifix, Rosaries and everything but God. Why then do you feel that a Catholic will know the importance or (lack of it) of the cross in Christian worship more than an Atheist? Afterall, you consider both of us as non-Christians.

The discussion here is about the crucifix and its use in worship....if logic boy hates God and his son then I wonder if he still knows what is right or wrong......

I never said you are a non-christian....when did I say that??

Italo no blackmail me o.....

My problem is logicboy would soon abuse you and the catholic church on another post but come here to act like he is still a catholic....

Let him decide where he wants to be....not sit on the fence...

italo: Your whole post shows that you didn't understand my post. But I am not surprised. If you don't understand the meaning of 'my God', 'everlasting father', 'alpha and omega', 'the beginning and the end', 'the first and the last', as short and simple as they are, I cannot expect you to understand my post.

I understood your post completely...and it didn't show me where the apostles made an image of the Cross and used it in worship.....

And for you to say the cross is the power of God is one big heresy......

The simple question I asked is:::::

Did the apostles carry around with them images of the cross or used the rosary in worship??did they have moulds of the cross??

You quoted so many scriptures and not one showed that....

chukwudi44: Show me this!!show me that!! Why don't you show me from the scriptures where it is written we should not make images of mary.

For the record catholics don't practice sola bible.you are the one who does and all I have been asking is the biblical basis for you saying mary's image is forbidden

Why should I show you something that is not found in the bible??......

The base on which christianity stands is on Jesus and the apostles..........

Did they use marys image in worship??

Is it not christianity we are talking about??

The bible should be our basis for discussion....I am against bowing down to mary because early christians never had records of doing that.....you insist it is very good to bow down and pray through mary.....oya show me how it all started you are asking me to open the scriptures.....

Show me how and where this whole pray ""through marys image"" saga started....

Logicboy03: 1) There is truth in the bible. Yes, I admit. However, there are also lies, bigotry and nonsense in the bible.

2) I am an atheist. I dont hate God. I just dont believe in him


3) I dont know when christians started using crosses as a symbol but I believe it is a good idea even though the bible does not clearly command it. The cross is now a universal symbol.

4) Dont drink blood. The bible was saying that people should not drink blood or use it for sacrifice. In modern times, we use blood for an exra reason- to save lives who have lost bllod


5) Will you commit suicide if you have lost blood by rejecting stored blood from a hostpital?

The bible says simply abstain from blood.......

What's the difference between drinking and transfusing blood into ones system...

If on was to contract AIDS would blood transfusion be different from when one drinks blood??

ABSTAIN from blood....that's the precept.....

I know its hard for you to keep up with precepts even the simplest.....

If that command was not in the scriptures we won't bother about it.....

You can as well call early christians suicidal for dying as matyrs when they simply could have denounced there faith in Christ and LIVE!!!!.......live for how long sef??

chukwudi44: @ijawkid

Assuming this is a law court you would have been the prosecution counsel and catholics as defendants.The onus would be on you to proove your case beyond reasonable doubt.

First you claimed catholics use images in contravention of God's law and after having been provided with irrefutable evidence of God commanding the use of images you are now saying catholics should provide where God commanded them to use mary's images.can you also provide any refernce in the bible where God said we should not use mary images?can you provide any reference where God commanded you to browse on the internet or even drive cars?

Your arguments are just puerile and devoid of logic

Who ordered the making of the image of mary??answer me.....we have seen from scriptures that the ark of covenant which is no more,the bronze serpent which was later destroyed were all made because God himself instructed its making.........

Who gave the instruction for marys image to be used as a central part of a christians worship to God.......

did Jesus give the instruction??...

We are working with precepts here and not out of our own intuition.....

How you tend to compare the use of cars and the internet with marys image in which you pray through has got me thinking if you really understand what we are talking about....

Do I pray through my car or through the internet??

Do I use my car in worship??....

Ask pertinent questions and not irrelevant questions..

We are discussing ""worship"" and not mode of transportation.......

italo: My friend, I don't know your age but I assume you are an adult so stop being childish. You thought it was only Catholics that pray and bow before images and I just showed you where Joshua did that. So in order to do it right, we have to say "alas Sovereign Lord?" If not it would be idolatry? Please if you have nothing meaningful to say, you can be quiet.

You recite words of devotion right at marys image.....did Joshua and the elders do that??that's the simple question I'm asking.....was the ark a mediator between the isrealites and God ??

italo: You didn't quote any scripture that says the apostles never bowed to any image.

The apostles never had a ny items clung to themselves that were used in worship...never.....even converts to christianity in the first century burnt there items when they learnt about Christ.......once again you need scriptures for what never took place in the NT....now that is some fraud.....you expect me to open the bible to show you were the apostles never bowed down to images....ofcus they didn't...they were Christ followers not pagans.......the worship of mary had a start....if you need me to write out how it was instigated,I would.....the bible is not its origin

italo: But it helps me do that all the time. Or do you now know what goes on in my mind more than me? Maybe it has deluded me into Joshua's kind of idolatry. I'll gladly imitate Joshua, thank you.

The ark of convenant was just a for-shadow of Christs coming...Christ has come,we don't need that ark anymore...except you are saying marys image has come to replace the ark of covenant....is that it??if it has who ordered its usage??that is my question.........

italo: Mary's image is Mary's image. I don't know any female goddesses, you are the one who knows them and how they look, so if there is an idol worshipper here, it is you.

The thought of making marys image a central part of your worship had its start with paganism and not with the scriptures....once again I'll ask...did the apostles make an image of mary and prayed through it?? Yes or No....use the scriptures....

italo: How do you know that God has healed no one through Mary's image. God who healed people through the bronze serpent, Peter's shadow and Paul's handkerchief... Are you God?

No record of persons been healed by praying through mary from the scriptures......God healed people through the bronze serpent,as a for gleam of what his son who would be hung will do for mankind.....mary was not in that equation...besides exercising Faith in the son of God is what heals and not marys image .......
Peters shadow healed people it was recorded,pauls handkerchief healed people it was recorded...where is marys own healing example??any scripture to show mary healed people??....in all the miracles performed by servants of God through Gods spirit,none was performed by Mary.....NONE!!!!!!!......mention one miracle mary performed.....

italo: I don't think Mary heals me or solves my problem, that is what YOU THINK I think...and you are wrong as usual.

Mary has healed nobody......nobody!!!!!....prove me wrong with the scriptures....

italo: Also, you haven't answered my questions.

Where did you get the information that the early Christians burned Crucifixes, Rosaries and other sacramentals?

Were the Ark and Bronze Serpent lifeless and useless?

I was saying early christians who had dealings with any article or object in there former way of worship destroyed them...abi I dey talk lie??

The ark and bronze serpents were direct commands from God,and so they were useful at the moment....marys image is 100 % useless because God nor His son gave the go ahead for marys image to be made and to act as a medium of worship.....

Remember God gave the isrealites strict commands and mensurations on how he wanted the ark of covenant built .....

Show me were the same is said of marys image in the bible....

Besides Jesus dying flushed away the temple and all its utensils,ark of covenant.......

The apostles never used images in worship......

Logicboy03: 1) The truth remains true whether I am a catholic or not.

2) Italo made sense with his arguyment about the cross. Jesus died on a cross and there are biblical quotes on carrying a cross. Yes, the bible doesnt say that we should put crosses in our houses or churches. However, the significance of the cross remains important in chriatianity and there is no surprise why christians use it as a symbol.

3)I was talking about christianity from a logical or academic point of view. You hate logic so much that you are ignorant to realise that there are bible scholars who arent christain or religious.

4) The command does not say anything about blood tranfusion whic was non-existent at biblical times. You are taking a fundamentalis and hardcore literalist interpretation that you accuse Italo of.

My question to you heathen is how would you know if the use of the cross in worship is important or not when to start with you hate God and Jesus Christ.....and what is truth to you when it comes to the bible......



Let the catholics who are still catholics keep defending there faith......

you know nothing nor appreciate bible truths so its easy for you to just say what is true from your atheist point of view........

If early christians used images in worship can mr italo kindly show me from the bible??

@ least I have foLlow precepts from the bible to abstain from blood....if taking in blood through blood transfusion isn't imbibing blood into my system then I wonder what is....

Can you teach me how I should abstain from blood??

chukwudi44: @ijawkid

Stop spewing rubbish.The use of image was not part of the mosaic law that was done away by the death of Jesus.Even the commandment that thou shall not make idols was given in the OT so your claim does not hold any water.

Yahweh gave the command before the isrealites made the ark of covenant...Yahweh gave the command before moses erected the copper abi bronze serpent........faithfull isrealites didn't presumpteously carved images to please God...they didn't....you guys have presupmteously made an image of mary and bowing down to it day and night....who gave you the command to make marys image??did Jesus give that command??who instigated it??..........no early christian had marys image nor prayed through mary......you guys haven't opened one scripture...

chukwudi44: You were asking where God healed people through mary in the bible. Well you can find that @ the wedding feast in cana where he changed water into wine.
There exists millions of miraculous intervention by mary throughout the globe that if I begin to list them here nairaland would not be able to contain them.

Did Jesus heal anybody at that wedding at cana??Jesus just changed water into wine....


And did the persons who came to meet mary,pray through mary??did they pray??



Is mary still pleading for the water in your house to turn into shepke??....

Can you again please give another instance were people had to run to mary to plead on there behalf for Jesus to heal them or solve
there problems??

I don't believe in online stories of miracles...I need biblical examples....show me were people prayed through mary to get healings in bible times........I'm waiting......

chukwudi44: Even God has used other saints like st Anthony of Padua to work more miracles after his death than when he was still here in this physical world.

And who is anthony of padua..is that a scriptural character??...open the bible .....

chukwudi44: NB:images and idols do not mean the same thing as idols refers to images that are worshipped.This implies that images that are not worshipped do not fall into this category and that is why God commanded and approved the use of images.There is no commandment stopping the use of images in both the OT and the NT.I challenege you to so provide it here if it so exists.

When one makes images outside Gods direct instructions and commands its tantamount to idolatry....show me from the bible who told you to make marys image and pray through it....its simple...open the scritpures....

Logicboy03: The cross is only a symbol at the end of the day. Italo made a reasonable argument why many churches choose to use it as a symbol.



Unlike you and your false church. Tell me, are the failed predictions of your church biblical? Jehovah's Witnesses failed predictions, that is.




You complain about Italo taking a metaphorical cross literally but then the Jehovah's Witnesse take the bible's prescription of not eating blood literally and ban blood transfusion!

If you were a catholic I would reply you...are you one now??.....

Or you still got the cross in your house
bowing down to it??.....

If you want to be a full catholic apologist abandon atheism and come let's discuss fully..rather than hanging on the fence....later you'll go put up a post deriding the catholics....

Let me know where you stand.......


Clear cut commands are there in the scriptures both Old and new for christians to abstain from blood....abi your eye no read reach there for bible??..........

Italo made no defense as regards using the cross in worship with the scriptures.......

Early christians did nothing of that sort.....

italo: Perhaps you should check out 1 Cor 1:23. Paul says, "...but we preach Christ crucified..." Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn't he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the "power of God".
1 Cor 2:2, "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Again, didn't Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the "power of God". This is why, we "keep Jesus on the cross," because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God's power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their "eyes", as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn't it?

From biblechristiansociety.com

Hahahahahaha.....

So you are telling me the apostles had moulds of the cross and also images??.......and also the rosary??

Italo now I know you are bent on following the traditions of men....

For you to force the use of the cross in worship on the bible shows how much you are willing to wallow in idolatry...

And so at your age you still don't know what Jesus meants when he said ""we should pick up our cross" and follow Him.....
So from your infantile assertions we are to literally pick up a wooden cross hang it in our homes.wrap it around our necks as rosaries and then follow Jesus??....is that what early christians did??

I am sure you know how big the cross(although he died on a tree) Jesus was hung on is.....and I hope you carry such big gigantic cross when you walk on the road.....SMH!!!!!!

My brother no scripture supports the carving and making of the image of the cross in worship....

And never you say the cross ""is the power of God"".....that is blasphemy and heresy.......

No 1st century christian used the cross in worship......history and the bible tells us that.....

chukwudi44: @ijawkid

Maybe I am missing it.Kindly provide me a biblical verse that says we sould not make any image of mary or Jesus nor pray in front of them just like Joshua did.

Are you trying to impose your biblical interpretion on the rest of us.You have been given explicit instances of the use of image in the bible yet you are still blabbing.

Who told you God has not healed anyone through mary? Have you heard about the healing water @ lourdes nor the myriads of mary's other miraculous intervention of which I am a beneficiary.Abeg don't talk about what you don't know.

Mention one person God has healed through mary........??

Do we have any instance in the bible....??

My question is who gave you guys the command to make marys image and bow down to it.....

You have been running around opening verses from the OT,but none from the NT....

Something must be wrong......

Now I realize that you guys barely know why Jesus was sent in the 1st place.........

Joshua bowed in front of the ark of covenant which is now defunct because of Jesus' death,.......we have no more temples,holy of holies etc............kindly tell me who instigated the use of marys image in worship....

Tell us the origin......and use the bible......

Simple!!!!!!!........

And don't ask me to show you where the bible says you shuldnt use marys image in worship.the evidence is all over the scriptures that no sane christian in the 1st century made any image,let alone marys image and bowed down to it...

Some one started the use of marys image in worship...who and when was that??

italo: Joshua 7: 6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! 8 Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? 9 The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?”

That looks like prayer to me, and it was said after he had prostrated "face down" before the Ark till evening.

Joshua went on to say ""alas sovereign LORD""

I didn't hear Joshua and those people mention words like the ark of covenant was a medium through which they could get to God.....

How does that relate with when you bow down in front of marys image and say ""Holy mary mother of God please pray for us""??....

Did Joshua mention the ark of covenant in his prayer??....did he??.......rather he said ""alas oh LORD"".

italo: And you didn't answer me, where the Ark and bronze serpent lifeless and useless?

And You didn't quote a scripture to show me where we are commanded to make an image of mary.....did you??.......God commanded that a corper serpent be made so that all those bitten would be healed,where are u commanded to make an image of mary??
Do you know why I need scriptures??because the apostles who were christians never bowed down to any image let alone the image of mary..... So who started the use of marys image in worship??it has no connection with the scriptures....

italo: No. They help us bring our minds to God. And I haven't heard where the early Christians did that. Can you show me where?

marys image can't help you or bring your minds back to God,rather it has deluded you into idolatry....you can't tell me @ your age and with a complete bible you still need images to remind you of God....you be pikin??

Besides only pagans bowed down to the images of female godesses......marys image is a replica of that....no spiritually balanced apostle would make an image of mary and bow down to it...except that 1st century christian was drunk on paganism....

italo: If they didn't see the bronze serpent as a means of worshipping God, then neither do we see statues as a means of worshipping God... God healed them by using the bronze serpent, didn't he? So God can heal us by using an image as a point of contact.

God has healed no one through marys image..now this statement of yours is one big heresy.....you think the white mary you bow down to heals or solves your problem...??you must be joking...I thought I had told you that the copper bronze serpent hung on a stake for-shadowed Jesus being hung on a stake..in which any one who exercises faith in him might not be destroyed but have eternal life.....

Now I didn't hear about marys image been erected to heal or save persons......

italo: [quote author=italo]God...through his Church. "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven."

Which church??so God told catholics to make an image of mary and bow down to it,but forgot to tell peter,paul,james and all 1st century christians??.....abeg carry this rubbish comot for my front....
We read specific commands from God himself as regards the making of the bronze serpent,the ark of covenant.....show us from the scriptures and not from some tradition of men how the use of marys image in worship came about.....

italo: There's no difference. God also recommends the use of our images through his Church... And did God tell the Israelites to bow to the image and Ark and pray to it?

God recommends no image for christians...open a scripture from after Jesus' death were servants of God used images in worship..just one scripture and I'll surrender......if not you are spewing lies......

italo: The problem is that you keep asking me to quote scripture and I keep quoting but you haven't quoted one single verse to back up all the claims you have been making since.

I've showed you where Mary made Jesus perform a miracle even when he didn't want to, you are asking me for another one. Mary is not dead but Alive. John 11:26 says that if you believe in Jesus, you will never die. Do you believe that?

John 11:26 in no way supports mary being an intercessor.....so u mean all those who begged Jesus to perform miracles on behalf of other persons all became intercessors??....

Mention one verse were the apostles prayed through mary to get to Jesus after Jesus' ascension....infact 1st century christians had no dealings with mary more or else praying through her....

Show me!!!!!!!!!!......

I have never beheld such heresy in my life before......

italo: The same thing that set the Israelites apart. They also bowed before the Ark of the covenant.



That's exactly what we do. We worship like Jesus who didn't need images to intercede for him because images cannot intercede, but saints can.

Don't let me catch you bowing down in front of marys image and chanting ""holy mary mother of God please pray for us"".....

If that isn't idolatry,then what is??...

The isrealites didn't pray through the ark of covenant......get that!!!!!....

italo: But it's not against what Joshua and the leaders of Israel did.

You mean Joshua and the leaders of isreal chanted in front of images??......please what did they say??

italo: Catholics don't believe we need the help of an image before we can approach God. That is an argument you built up by yourself on behalf of Catholics...and we didn't ask you to be our spokesperson on what we believe.

Then discard the images of the cross,the rosary,and marys image....throw them into the receptacle..burn them just as the early christians did........

italo: So the Ark of the covenant was also lifeless and useless then? The bronze serpent that God told the Israelites to construct were lifeless and useless?

what was the instruction God gave moses as regards the bronze serpent??didn't God instruct moses on what to do??....God himself gave the instruction in order for the lives of the isrealites who had been bitten by snakes to be revived.....and that act for-shadowed the messiah been hung on a stake.....Jesus himself refered to that incident....
The isrealites didn't see the copper serpent as a means of worshipping God,,,,....infact later on that bronze serpent was destroyed by God.....

And as regards the ark of covenant,its making was as a result of Gods instruction...and that ark of covenant represented Gods prescence....and it was kept in the most holy.....all that was given because of the physical temple......
Today ofcus God does not dwell in temples....Jesus died to squash the physical temples and all its items......

I wonder how come we are having new images in churches....who instructed the making of those images??God??or man??.....

italo: When you say we are to worship by faith not by sight, you should know that it is not by the "sight" of the statue that we commune with God, it is by FAITH that the Saint is alive in heaven and God will hear and answer his prayer.

When the Israelites bowed before the Ark, they knew that the Ark wasn't God but it brought their minds to God in a very powerful way. When we look at the Statue of Mary, we know that it is not Mary but it brings our mind to the Mother of God who is not dead but alive in heaven, and who can hear us and help us like she helped the couple in Cana talk to Jesus to provide wine.

She hasn't stopped interceding for mankind.

Now the difference between you and an ancient isrealite was that that ark of covenant was made because God himself instructed them to make it......

Who instructed the catholics to make an image of mary and to bow down to it and infact pray through it??who??

In your case presumpteousness and idolatry is what is eating you up....


Did the isrealites pray through the ark of covenant??

How can you quote what happened @ cana as a prop for indulging in prayers through mary??

So because mary helped a couple beg Jesus to turn water into wine,it then also means mary is interceding for all Christians after her death??......wonders shall never end!!!!!!!!!!........

And I believe till today you are still begging mary to beg Jesus to turn all the water in your house to wine or maybe VODKA this time......
.......
And how many times did the apostles or early christians pray thru mary even when mary was alive ??can you please spot a verse from acts to revelations where early christians prayed through mary??....



How can you use just that one singular act to term mary as an intercessor.....SMH!!!!!!!.....



Now this is why we say you guys worship mary.....

""HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD PLEASE PRAY FOR US""...

This is what no early christian did or said.........

Logicboy03: lol....and the Protestants have the nerve to call catholic pagans.


Bunch of hypocrites, you christians.



Serioulsy, how are you winning souls for the faith when you are divided and hypocritical?

Lol......

Ask them o no ask me....cross no hang for my house.....

chukwudi44: @ijawkid

God did not condemn use of images but rather worship of images.God recomended use of images in several instances in the bible.Key among them being the bronze serpent,cherubims e.t.c

Now you go way back to the times of the isrealites that were dealing with the ancient temple and its holy of holies and shoved aside what is right in front of you........... What you should have asked is if Jesus and early christians used images In worship??...




Like you said GOD recommended and commanded them(the isrealites) right??@ least you can open the bible to show were God gave this short term commands to the isrealites......and if you had completely read your bible you would have found out that the bronze serpent was later destroyed by God himself......
The cherubs alongside with the mouldings of lions etc that were sculptured in the temple solomon built were never mediums of worshipping or getting to God ....

And no isrealite prayed through dead saints....


...........
1.....Who gave the command that the image of the cross,mary and of saints be made and bowed down to all in the name of worshipping God??open one scripture to support it....

I need scriptures for your stand on making the image of the cross and mary and saints....

Logicboy03: Really? I wonder what the crucifixes or statues of Jesus on the cross in churches are about then or how it changes the fact that the cross is the symbol of christianity?

I still don't know how the cross became the symbol of christianity......the early christians and the apostles never used that item in worship nor hung it around there homes....

The use of the cross in worship is pure idolatry......

obadiah777: OGA JO HAS A SPECIAL BIBLE CALLED 'THE LANDLORDS MANUAL'

Lol....I can see that......

tobechi20: Someone told me the other day that Catholics are idolaters because we kneel in front of statues to pray, which means we are worshipping the statue.



I told him that meant kneeling by your bed to pray is worshipping your bed, and praying at the table before meals must be worshipping your food. That actually helped him understand that you aren't always praying to whatever is in front of you, and I used the opportunity to tell him that we worship God, but we simply ask saints to worship God on our behalf.

Of course this individual was not converted, but I honestly think he has more understanding of our faith than before. I always find it useful to use humor to get people to see your side of an issue. I just thought I'd like to share that, and see what others have experienced in issues like this.



What do you tell someone who accuses you of worshipping statues?

So can you please tell me what sets you apart from one who practices hindiusm or buddhism who believes that through an image he or she can get to the supreme God??...

Have you ever tried imitating Jesus who worshipped the almighty without the need of images interceding for Him??.......

Ubenedictus: dont try d above with ijawkid and frosbel, they are more interested in condemning u than in seeing ur perspective.
No offence meant to ijawkid and frosbel bt d truth is what it is.

Lol....we aint angry bro....

I'm not in any battle with the catholics actually.....its just that bowing down and chanting before images is just against what Jesus would do...its plain idolatry......Jesus didn't need the help of an image before he could approach his Father....we don't need items to be right in front of us before we can approach our heavenly Father.....

As I can see the catholics are not confident enough that Jesus can do his mediator Job any longer and so bowing down before marys image becomes important.....need I remind you guys that we are to worship God by Faith and not by sight.......we don't need images to help us get to God...images are inanimate objects made by the hands of man........they are lifeless and USELESS........

Joagbaje: Satan is the land lord of hell. It's only a temporary abode.

Now where in the bible is it written that satan is the landlord of Hell??

Who rent the Hell to am??lol

Image123: @ijawk


You seem to be the confused fellow. It is the Bible that talks of a first resurrection, not me. If resurrection is resurrection, the Spirit of God will not classify it differently.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

No you are the confused one.........if you can't comprehend what the term ""ressurection"" means irrespective of wether its first or second.......

My point if you have noticed is that until one is ressurected(just as Jesus was) that fellow can never be in any other place other than his or her grave.....now that one fact is what you are dodging from.........to you when we die,our souls escape to its various abode before an individual is ressurected...now isn't that false??..........

Image123: Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.



Nobody mentioned a 'strole' in the heavens, except of course you and your fellows.

Now can you please compare daniel 12:2 and john 5:28-29??
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, inthe which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
.......
Again those in there graves have to wait till they receive the command of ressurection.....
This still supports my stance that if on isn't ressurected,that persons soul cannot exist outside his or her body....
I am pro-ressurection,not pro immortality of the soul.......

Don't you get it??

Image123: You're in a monologue here right? i don't recall any conversation between me and you on definition of spirits or anything of such.
Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
Ecc 3:21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
from my understanding, man is a living soul essentially. So, when he dies, his body(all bodies) go down, his spirit(all spirits) go up, he the soul goes to heaven(paradise, under the altar, abraham's bosom) or to hell(a place of darkness and torment).

Its good you are saying from your understanding!!!!.....and your understanding is warped completely from the bibles point of view.......

EcclesÍastes plainly tells us where all ""spirits"" go to after they a person returns to the dust....it is you
and your trickery that has assumed that whÉn man dies his soul goes to heavÉn (altar) or Hell,body to ground and spirit go up....



if I may ask you where does the spirit go up to??to NASA or some astronauts up there in outer space??there you go again twisting plain scriptures to fit into your pagan belief.......solomon says all spirits regardless of whose(bad or good) spirit goes back to the source(God)...now what is that spirit??

.you also said the soul either goes to the altar and then you equally a
ssumed that the alter is paradise,or the soul goes to Hell.....


And you are not still certain if abraham is in heaven or not.....!!!!!!!!!!!


Even after learning that the word"" Hell"" is grave you are still holding on to the false notion of it because as I can see your life depends on it.....
Jesus went to"" HELL"" and stayed there for 3days,so I wonder how we are going to handle your issue........

And again if these souls run to heaven or hell before they are eventually ressurected of what use is the word ressurection??God would be wasting his time ressurecting persons who by default according to you and your cohorts are in either heaven or Hell fire already imme.diately afte.r death..........

Image123: i have reasons to disagree. Reasons like Enoch, Abraham, Moses and Elijah. they are not unconscious but in a position of rest. And like Solomon said, there are varying proportions of rest. Sinners and saints are not enjoying equal rest. Dead people do not have the same level of rest.

Ecc 6:5 Moreover he hath not seen the sun, nor known any thing: this hath more rest than the other.
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
Heb 4:11 Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

these are all scriptures that you need to go and digest cummulatively, instead of your usual cherry pick style of making scriptures to conform to your ideas. Study scriptures, and learn to rightly divide them. Scripture is complete.

Now I know you got a very big problem understanding scriptures........

I can't believe you will quote a scripture like eccl 6:5 to support your yeye stance on this discussion.....

How wayo of you not to had read from verse 3 to find out who these persons are that will have more rest than a man who has toiled all is life in world of vanity....
........
Eccl 6:3-5
3 A man may have a hundred children and live many years; yet no matter how long he lives, if he cannot enjoy his prosperity and does not receive proper burial, I say that a"" stillborn"" child is better off than he. 4 It comes without meaning, it departs in darkness, and in darkness its name is shrouded. 5 Though it never saw the sun or knew anything, it has more rest than does that man—


.......

Do you see that ecclesiastes was talking about a still born child??

Please image123 I would want you to define who a still born child is and please tell me how this verses supports your definition of rest.........the way you have twisted the words of solomon just to let it fit into your spurious belief has left me bewildered....do you even understand what solomon was talking about??
SMH!!!!!!!!.......

So from your false assertions under what group would we categorize children who are born dead?? Sinners or saints??so that we can tell who rests more or who rests less....

Image123 Please always make it your aim to read your bible complete before coming here to post myths......

Image123: Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

All dead saints, just like Lazarus in the parable not to be mentioned, are in a state of rest, in the bosom. they are conscious even though lazarus seemed inactive compared to the rich man. They have ability to receive good things, take robes, speak to God, and be sent on cameos as it were. They are in a better state than any living saint. i don't think to be 'dead and unconscious' is a better state than the potential and ability to do greater works than Jesus on earth. Don't tell us again that they are dead and unconscious, why build a doctrine on one misinterpreted and misunderstood verse in the old testament?
Phi 1:23 For I am in a strait between two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

You are once again quoting a parable as a real life event.....when would you actually wake up to the fact that it was a parable??....

And again I'll say that the dead are consious of nothing @ all until they are ressurected.....

And if I may ask what do you understand from matthew 27:52-53 that you had to juxtapose with john 12:32??

Jesus said when he is lifted up from the earth,he'll draw men unto himself....right??

Now let me ask you:::::: had Jesus been raised from the earth when that incident recorded in matthew 27:52-53 occured??

What brought out those bodies from the graves??

Image123: Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
The Bible doesn't say like you that God will be the God of the living. No, it says God is the God of the living. i never mentioned 'spirits running around the place', dunno where you get that idea from, maybe frosb.

Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Now, this is controversial and unpopular, but i'll advise that you take that statement and its likes in the context of living men. Actually, the fact Christ was trying to pass across was that His authority supercedes others because He had come from heaven unlike other men who had not been there. he wasn't teaching on where men go to when they die. Obviously, Moses and Elijah later appeared to Jesus and spoke to Him of what He was to face. These are faithful patriachs that are not in their graves but in glory.

Image123 for you to make this statement """""Actually, the fact Christ was trying to pass across was that His authority supercedes others because He had come from heaven unlike other men who had not been there. he wasn't teaching on where men go to when they die""""" shows that you are a hater of truths and a lover of human traditions and lies ..
.......



.........

For you to refute Jesus' clear statement in john 3:13 is what might make me truncate this discussion I'm having with you...if Jesus said before I came to the earth from heaven I never saw anybody ascend to the heavens, why can't you just believe Him.......except you are insinuating that Jesus didn't check the heavens very well before his descension to the earth.......

From Jesus' clear words @ john 3:13,elisha and moses are right in there graves waiting for when Jesus would ressurect them.......

It seems you still haven't come to the reality that Jesus is the first born from the dead.......the more you push that moses ,elijah and all faithful partriarchs are in heaven and not in there graves the more you are negating Jesus as the first born from the dead.........

I believe you did read about the ""transfiguration""....and a transfiguration it was........nothing more nothing less....continue to re-read john 3:13 until you balance your beliefs with the scriptures.....

Image123: i answered your question as clearly as i could. i even gave other examples to help you, you may re-read it if you please. here though was the direct answer i gave, i find nothing shaky in it.
if you so need the definition, you may open another thread. I have already stated that paradise, abraham's bosom, under the altar, sleeping in Jesus are all phrases used to describe the state of dead believers. They are all the same thing expressed in different names to show us a more thorough view.

Staying. Under an altÀr is not synonymous to paradise.........there souls(blood) being under that §ymbolic or figurative altar shows that those matyrs died a sacrificial death.....I had pointed out this trÙth that corresponds with the ancient temple in Jerusalem.......but you would rather hold on to believe that the blood of those saints are infact the saints themselves in paradise,,,,,

Blood is what is put around or underneath an altar and not humans.....

I had earlier told you that the soul in that context is the blood which is equal to LIFE......

...........

I would like to ask you one good question::::

WHERE IS THE SOUL,BODY,and SPIRIT of adam and eve our first parents who landed us in this predicaments we are facing??

Buzugee abeg leave my elder brother goshen for me o.......:-)....

I think he is a lil busy...

obadiah777: YOU AINT NO ATHEIST. STOP LYING. THERE ARE NO BLACK ATHEISTS. JUST CONFUSED BLACK MEN

Seconded

And the hell fire figment continues.......

Who told this OP that MJ and the pope are in Hell fire.....

They are both in there graves......

SMH!!!!!!.....

If adam and eve had not sinned the argument of the immortality of the soul and hell fire would not exist.....lol...

ATMC: Lol, i sha will like to be mary, martha's sister so i get to chat with jesus u know...and sit on his lap, dt'll definitely make sense

Why would you wanna sit on Jesus' lap??

Lol....

Abeg o...

cyrexx: who is frosbella? Is that frosbel's daughter?

Hi, bella, good to see you here. Hope you are not bored with all these back and forth. Daddy is doing so well knocking some sense into the the thick skull of these hellists.

Lol...

Frosbel needs to clear us on this.....

It seems there is a female frosbel in da house....lol...

Ihedinobi: @bolded, how again does something perfect become less than perfect? And if that is a possibility, what guarantee do we have that our perfect God will not become imperfect?

Are you asking me this question??.....

Were the angels created imperfect??


My point is that satans beginning was perfect in contrast to the kings of tyre and sidon who were humans that had inherited sinfulness and imperfection from adam........but as we all know he(satan) became rebellious made him fall short of Gods glory.... .......