₦airaland Forum

Lord_Reed: I already quoted a scripture for you:



Is Jesus talking of Heaven? Why does He say "Today....."? If there is no consciousness after death why would time and place be important?

Mr_Anony: It breaks my heart to have brothers who look the scripture in the eye and deny it. Thankfully, we have gotten rid of the emotional argument of a loving cuddly teddybear kind of God who won't hurt a fly.

Mr_Anony: One thing with scripture is that scripture is one. It is either all of it makes sense or none of it does. The validity of a post is not based on how many verses the poster was able to spit out but on whether the post is in alignment with what the scripture is saying.
It is bad practice to argue based on "I have 3 verses while you have 2 therefore I win" That is an insult to scripture. Scripture must be as a whole.

Mr_Anony: When we argue about hell and we raise the parable of the rich man and lazarus, and also the parables Jesus always ends with the sinner being thrown into the outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Some of us immediately write it off as if it being a parable somehow makes it less true. What is even more surprising is that these same people quote a psalm (a song) or a proverb (which can also be called a parable) in order to make their points. As if a psalm and proverb are somehow more literal.
When we talk about the book of Revelations or souls and spirits of men, they say oh it is a "vision" only to quote a prophecy (which is also a vision).

Mr_Anony: Another tactic which I find equally puzzling is when they ask "what is the rich man's name?", "where are adam and eve","did fire burn Jesus", "who will torment the devil" (even when the bible clearly says that he will be tormented forever)etc. As if these irrelevant questions somehow mean anything or make a narrative any less valid.

Lord_Reed: One thing is clear from scriptures that men are conscious after they die.




.

KDK: Please bothers and sisters, could any of you tell me Why is God not called the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel? But rather He says 'I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob'. Afterall ,He changed Jacob to Israel.

cyrexx: You dishonestly neglect the next verse which says. "Yea, better is he than both they, which hath not yet been, who hath not seen the evil work that is done under the sun".
So does it mean that the unborn are also alive somewhere else?

Even a non-believer like me can see thru your shortsighted bigotry

.

Ihedinobi: ^^^ I don't care for running circles around Scriptures so I do not intend to interpret Isaiah 34:9,10. I would rather ask what you think of Isaiah 14:4-23. Who is the subject of that prophecy? Consider also Ezekiel 28:11-19 and answer the same question for me regarding it.

Edited.

Logicboy03: Stalk you? Sorry men, you are not interesting, you dont have tithe money like Oyedepo

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.


§§ God is utterly just.

§§ God is utterly merciful.

§§ When God saves, He saves to the uttermost.

§§ When God destroys, He destroys utterly.

§§ When God's Mercy has been rejected, only His Wrath can be had and it will be had without respite.

§§ God is no respecter of persons.


What I think about hellfire or the lake of fire or the Second Death is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 which in the RSV reads thus



And because of the tendency to read termination into the word, "destruction", which tendency should normally be checked by the words, "vengeance", "affliction", and "exclusion", I proceed to point out the following verse in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John also reading from the RSV



Already, I am fully aware of the arguments that may be raised against the passage in Revelation, but the thing that I think does clinch the discussion is the nature and purpose of man. It is easy to forget that sin or corruption or that departure from the correct and the normal is the aberration, not the normal. Man is first a man, before he is a sinner. What a sinner is is essentially a corruption of the entity called man. Therefore, if man is to be correctly analysed, sin must be put in its correct place: that of an aberration.

Having said so, I think it necessary to address the nature of man. What is man? The clearest statement in the Scriptures about man is that in Genesis 1:27 viz "in the image of God he created him". Man is that which was created to be like God. In other words, Man is what God would be if God were a creature. Sin is a corruption of the Reality called Man.

Man as Man, I declare, was built to last. Why? Because he was created for dominion. He was created to be God's means of government over His whole creation. What we see in the beginning of Genesis is Man in potential, what follows is Man failing to reach full potential and essentially losing character. What we find finally in Revelation is Man, not only restored but in full actualization of his potentials. I have said this to point out that even though God knew that the entity called Man would be corrupted and therefore prepared beforehand to correct the anomaly when it happened, He still created Man to be Man.

Man is, in a sense, eternal. The sense in which I mean is that he was a thought from eternity, an actuality in time and a perpetuation in eternity. He will continue to exist because he was made to. Sin only redirects his existence, it does not "delete" it. This is why the Salvation offered in Jesus Christ is such a big deal in the first instance. Man will go on either in actualizing all that he was created for or in failing utterly of it all, either way, he will continue to exist.

Physical Death is a condition that exists, just like time, to correct the issue of Sin. Without it, the corruption reigns unchecked. Consider Jeremiah 18:1-17 especially verse 4 as an illustration of this point. If within the time frame alloted a given individual is reclaimed, wonderful, if not, too bad. But the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with flesh forever. At a point, the man must be left to his fate. Said condition exists to truncate this strife for the stiff-necked and to reap the harvest of fruitful work.

TBC

Ihedinobi: I really cannot add much to Lord Reed's, Image123's, Reyginius's and Mr Anony's intro, to mention the few believers I remember here represented. They fully capture my stand on the matter at hand. However, I will point out the following.


§§ God is utterly just.

§§ God is utterly merciful.

§§ When God saves, He saves to the uttermost.

§§ When God destroys, He destroys utterly.

§§ When God's Mercy has been rejected, only His Wrath can be had and it will be had without respite.

§§ God is no respecter of persons.


What I think about hellfire or the lake of fire or the Second Death is recorded in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10 which in the RSV reads thus



And because of the tendency to read termination into the word, "destruction", which tendency should normally be checked by the words, "vengeance", "affliction", and "exclusion", I proceed to point out the following verse in the Revelation of Jesus Christ as given to John also reading from the RSV



Already, I am fully aware of the arguments that may be raised against the passage in Revelation, but the thing that I think does clinch the discussion is the nature and purpose of man. It is easy to forget that sin or corruption or that departure from the correct and the normal is the aberration, not the normal. Man is first a man, before he is a sinner. What a sinner is is essentially a corruption of the entity called man. Therefore, if man is to be correctly analysed, sin must be put in its correct place: that of an aberration.

Having said so, I think it necessary to address the nature of man. What is man? The clearest statement in the Scriptures about man is that in Genesis 1:27 viz "in the image of God he created him". Man is that which was created to be like God. In other words, Man is what God would be if God were a creature. Sin is a corruption of the Reality called Man.

Man as Man, I declare, was built to last. Why? Because he was created for dominion. He was created to be God's means of government over His whole creation. What we see in the beginning of Genesis is Man in potential, what follows is Man failing to reach full potential and essentially losing character. What we find finally in Revelation is Man, not only restored but in full actualization of his potentials. I have said this to point out that even though God knew that the entity called Man would be corrupted and therefore prepared beforehand to correct the anomaly when it happened, He still created Man to be Man.

Man is, in a sense, eternal. The sense in which I mean is that he was a thought from eternity, an actuality in time and a perpetuation in eternity. He will continue to exist because he was made to. Sin only redirects his existence, it does not "delete" it. This is why the Salvation offered in Jesus Christ is such a big deal in the first instance. Man will go on either in actualizing all that he was created for or in failing utterly of it all, either way, he will continue to exist.

Physical Death is a condition that exists, just like time, to correct the issue of Sin. Without it, the corruption reigns unchecked. Consider Jeremiah 18:1-17 especially verse 4 as an illustration of this point. If within the time frame alloted a given individual is reclaimed, wonderful, if not, too bad. But the Spirit of the Lord will not strive with flesh forever. At a point, the man must be left to his fate. Said condition exists to truncate this strife for the stiff-necked and to reap the harvest of fruitful work.

TBC

Ihedinobi: Twin bro, I get this tendency to civility, but I would rather you do not condone evil especially when it is evident in them who claim Christ. It will probably portray you as intolerant but it does pay to be on the Lord's side regardless who is on the other.

The antecedents of truthislight's crew is completely in agreement with what he said: they use Scriptures to refute Scriptures. He may have not meant to say that, or he may have but it is in fact what they do and why I do not hide the fact that I cannot tolerate their arguments. My first experience of such foolishness was with frosbel who would throw Scriptures at you when you questioned any position he held that appeared to contradict a particular Scripture. I warned him then that it is antichrist to pit Scriptures against themselves. Then I saw the liberality with which truthislight dispensed such wickedness.

True, there is a great deal that we do not know, especially what goes on in the heart of a man. But we may see what a man does and deal with him accordingly. These "brethren" hold no respect for the Bible and probably never will. Do not ever excuse them, I beg you, that you may not be taken in their snare. If they change, we will rejoice in the blessing of added brethren. But until they do, I beg you, cease from reckoning with them as brethren. It will only have you standing contrary to Christ in the most subtle ways.

obadiah777: very true. the church cannot be prostituting and fornicating with other philosophies like politics. it has to remain a virgin even as we are expected to remain virgins

Logicboy03: Hypocritical coming from a Jehovah witness, dont you think?

CrazyMan: Why can't you understand that passage.

It was a parable...it didn't actually happen. Jesus told that story for the purpose of giving; he wants us to have compassion on the poor.

brainpulse: Because you have seen yourself as to question God's judgement.

Was Christ capable of knowing what really happened after death? YES
Was He capable of knowing what happened doing the time of Moses? YES- because he knew what was going to happened to him even after His death.

CrazyMan: Try reading a second time...and I believe you would understand it much better.

I was a parable...

[b] Luke 16:19-31.  There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. [/b]

CrazyMan: I gave a passage luke 16:24...it proved that the dead was actually kept in a hilding place pending the final punishment.

obadiah777: ALL SINS ARE NOT EQUAL. THERE ARE SOME SINS UNTO DEATH

1 JOHN 5 VS 16 If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that.

1 CORINTHIANS 6 VS 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

OLAADEGBU: This OT verse in Isaiah 48:16 gives a hint of the trinity:

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God and His Spirit, hath sent me.

Only those with who the Lord has revealed this to would see it.

Mr_Anony: Interestingly Fresky, you omitted a large part of Christ talking about a suffering after judgment. What you are proposing sounds like this: Man sins and dies, God resurrects him and says something along the lines of "you have been a very bad boy haven't you? Now go back to sleep".

Annihilation is not preached in the scripture. It is only something you have assumed. It is special pleading to say that though the bible says that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, that man thrown into the same lake of fire will somehow be exempt from the same punishment but will simply go into another long eternal sleep. This is false.

The part you cited in the book of Psalms where the wicked will be cut off was referring to a physical death. How do I know? I read the whole Psalm and nothing about that verse seems to indicate an afterlife cutting off.


One more thing Fresky. please stick to KJV or RSV as we have agreed, NKJV is not one of the translations we agreed upon (yeah I know it is very similar to KJV and it is also my favoured translation but then an agreement is an agreement. Let's respect that).

obadiah777: http://www.informationnigeria.org/2012/09/bizarre-27-year-old-man-cuts-off-his-own-hands-to-prevent-him-from-stealing.html

Logicboy03: You are quite a fool, arent you?

Freksy: 1. Death is the opposite of life. It is a state of non-existent or inactivity. When I was not created, I did not exist. When I die I will exist no more.

God said to man: "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” -Genesis 2:17 (NKJV) "...For dust you are, And to dust you shall return.”-Genesis 3:19 (NKJV)

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. -Genesis 3:4 (NKJV)

In view of the above, it is either God or Satan is a liar. Well, Eve was quick to realize Satan is a liar.
"...The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.” -Genesis 3:13 (NKJV)

This seed of untruth about man continuous existence after sin and death was sown far back in the garden of Eden, it is almost as old as man. Since Satan is crafty and unrelenting he has re-packaged and re-presented same. Today we have this untruth in forms such as immortality of the soul of man, reincarnation of man, eternal torment of man in a fiery hell etc.

Considering the foregoing, on whose side are you? God's or Satan's?

2. Hell simply means grave. The Hebrew word for it is Sheol, the Greek word for it is Hades. It is not a literal place for torment. It is a place of inactivity. For example, Jesus was raised from the grave or Sheol or Hades or Hell. Compare the following quotations from the King James Versions:

"For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell ; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Psalms 16:10 (KJV)

"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell , neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption" - Acts 2:27 (KJV)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Psalms 16:10 (NKJV)

"For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
-Acts 2:27 (NKJV)

Conclussion: Hell = Sheol = Hades = Grave.

3. Fire is a symbol of annihilation. The lake of fire and sulphur is not a literal place of torment, but a symbol of everlasting death - the second death. Destruction by God is everlasting - no hope of recovery or resurrection. It's like incinerating an object.

Whenever the expression "everlasting/eternal torment, punishment, suffering etc is used, it's often symbolic, not literal. Consider the following:

"as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". -Jude 1:7 (NKJV)

Geographically and literally speaking, today the biblical cities of Sodom and Comorrah are believed to have been in the vicinity of southeastern Isreal, near the south end of the dead sea. They are industral sites.

If we take Jude's description of the destruction of the aforementioned cities literally, then either Jude lied or the incident never happened. The truth is, their death was final. Destruction of the wicked by God is often described symbolically as by fire. It's difference from destruction by others.

4. Will there be any retribution for unrepentant sinners? Yes!
Whatever means God will use, the wicked will be killed. I mean death, in the true sense of the word.
It will be total annihilation. They will exist no more.

"For evildoers shall be cut off;But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more;Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. -Psalms 37:9-10 (NKJV)

5. Is there any hope for the dead? Yes, the hope of resurrection! God made man from dust and from dust faithful ones who died will be resurrected at His appointed time.

davidylan: Would you allow your kids to participate in egungun festivals in nigeria?

Image123: what's the definition of a good question, anything you don't have an answer for?

obadiah777: BUAHAHAHAHA YOU DONT SAY BRAH ? I DONT SEE ANYONE HERE THOUGH

obadiah777: WHAT TIME DOES THIS DEBATE START ?

Pastor Kun: So going by Abraham's example I can pay tithes only once in my life time when I get a windfall.