₦airaland Forum

benalvino: One there is only one beginning... I don't know where ur logic is coming from...
there is life in the word in the beginning.

Find out when Jesus became the beginning of Gods creation and find out the beginning which Jesus was when the world was created through him...........

shdemidemi: I am sure we both understand He was not a servant but He humbled himself as such for us. Referring to Christ as the son of God does not mean an offspring of God but He is the son as part of the Godhead.

Nobody is part of any Godhead......I don't even know what you think God head is......

And as we see from ask Jesus was already in heaven when peter said those words......

God hath ressurected his holy servant......

Now may I ask you....

Why are the angels and adam called sons of God??.....

On what basis are they called Sons of God....

Bidam: Even if Jesus was a servant then. Can a servant not be like His MASTER?

Read well......the apostles still called Jesus Gods servant well after his ascension......

benalvino: I don't get you...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

the above verse shows that in the beginning jesus was with God and he is God... it didn't say any creation took place before the beginning... more contradiction for your rev 3:14

Now it should have occured to you that we don't have just one beginning in the scriptures.....

Now which beginning was Jesus with GOD?.....

Was it the same beginning Jesus became the beginning of Gods creation??........

And john 1:4 just sums up what I have bEen telling you....it says in him was life.....

Who granted Jesus that life to have in himself??.......

The same question has come back to you....

benalvino: where the father gave him to do it before the creation... just as in the beginning... jesus was with the father... the word. it should have said he was created then the father gave him right or power to create

But abeg you Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation answers the above.....

You think all the things Jesus talk for earth na for play??....

My ba3 was die.....

benalvino: ijawkid just choose one... abeg been asking for more than 1 week with no answer... is jesus

man in heaven
angel
a god?

why you they fear this question.

Oboy I don answer this question na.......wetin I dey fear for.........

This question is not even close to being important as far as this thread is concerned.....

benalvino: Philippians 2:5-11

New International Version (NIV)


5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:


6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!

jesus gave up the above... so he depended on the father. Before that there was nothing like he gave jesus authority to create. that teaching not found anywhere

Did Jesus say those words just because he came down to the earth and was in human form or because it is just what it is??......

I'm only just showing why Jesus could engage in creation....

The Father gave him the right and the power to......

Now there's not one single thing that Jesus does that he didn't receive authority frm the Father or was given to him by the Father......

Read Jesus' own words....

benalvino: that's not during the creation... it was during when jesus came to earth

What else do you think makes The Father to be able to create..??.....to animate things??.....

Is it not the life he has in himself??.......

benalvino: where did that happen in the bible?

New International Version
(©2011)
For as the Father has life in
himself, so he has granted the Son
also to have life in himself.

New Living Translation (©2007)
The Father has life in himself, and
he has granted that same life-
giving power to his Son.

benalvino: that's why a created cant be a creator

Hmmm......even when that created is granted to have life in himself by his God and Father??......

benalvino: nope other no exist at all for that passage

But na him make e dey bracket na.....

Abi e no dey bracket??.....

benalvino: and you say where the bible calls Jesus God and I should you... you want more?

aside that there is only one God... this I have been saying from day one... and the bible says one Lord also Jesus Christ... yet the father is Lord also.

The Father appointed Jesus as Lord that is why it is boldly stated in 1 corinthians 8:6......

The Father is Lord over Jesus.......the Father excepted once again............

Remember when Jesus said call no one Father except the one GOD the Father??....and also when he said call no one master except him Jesus??....

My bro the difference is clear.......

benalvino: if he is a thing he had to create all other things and not all things... that is why NWT add other in the verse.

The other in bracket only shows Jesus himself had a beginning...

Because the Jesus himself had a start.....

U dig??.....

benalvino: Yet only God can create... isn't it? bible says through Jesus. its you who cant bear that Jesus is God despite bible said it in many verses...

Creating Jesus will be so important that the bible cant miss it simple. you use firstborn, begotten etc all that have been debunked. fact is if Jesus is a thing they he cant be a creator... if he was created he cant even create all things... that is the contradiction. and many more... you wont even admit jesus was a man in heaven or angel or an ordinary god as you no gree say him Be GOD... despite John 1:1 and many verses

Which God??....is he The Father......

And may I call your attention back...you have actually debunked nothing.....infact your very understanding of Jesus being the beginning of Gods creation is about to be debunked ....

And when it says Jesus created all things it excepts the Father who have Jesus what ever ability or power he has ,while Jesus himself was formed.......had a begiNning.....






I answered your question by saying Jesus is Gods first spirit son......

That answer covers everything......

And like I said earlier you never considered all the definition of firstborn....

Plus scriptures that are replica of what we are considering you haven't explained.......

deSika: What i dont understand is why the bible calls Jesus God in Isaiah 9:6 but you IJAWKID refuse to call him God. Why the bible calls Jesus God in John 20:28, titus 2:13, heb 1 :8 but you refuse to call him that.

Pls can you explain how God used his own blood to buy the church in Acts 20:28

Acts ofcourse is a wrong rendering....

I would advice you read other renditions to get the real rendering of that verse......

God does not have blood.....

stop mocking God .....

The scriptures call all of us GOD......

The one GOD is what is in question...

And he is the Father alone......

benalvino: nope it means he is not telling the truth or you result to other contradictions... Let us create man... then from let us bible said so God create man in his image... the thing is If jesus is not GOD the universe wont be holding because of him... he cant create. the scriptures says Jesus is God then it says there is one God then it says only God created everything. fact is if Jesus is not God then their is contradiction. period... so many contradiction coming out from your belief. If God created jesus the bible would make it so clear that we wont be here debating about it.

No contradicition bro..it is because u just can't bear to see that Jesus was Gods agent in creation but Jesus being the first of Gods creation.......

From the scriptures the one GOD is the Father......

Everybody(including Jesus) came from that Father.......

There is another post where this genesis 1:26/27 issue is being discussed......would like you to check it out...it is desika's thread....

A perfect example was used to explain that verse.......

Now Jesus can hold the universe but surely his own life(Jesus' life) is dependent on the Father who kick started Jesus' life..........

That is why he is called the beginning of Gods creation.........

Simple and clear........

benalvino: Isa 44:24, "I am the LORD, who makes all things, who stretches out the heavens all alone, who spreads abroad the earth by myself." Chapter 45:12, "I have made the earth, And created man on it. I; My hands; stretched out the heavens, And all their host I have commanded." Chapter 40:12,13, "Who has measured the waters in the hollow of His hand, Measured heaven with a span And calculated the dust of the earth in a measure? Weighed the mountains in scales And the hills in a balance? Who has directed the Spirit of the LORD, or as his counselor has taught him?" Job 9:8, "He alone spreads out the heavens, and treads on the waves of the sea." These are magnificent descriptions of the creating power of God, and exceed every thing of the kind that has been attempted by the pens of the greatest sages of antiquity. By this operation God is distinguished from all the false gods and fictitious deities which the blinded nations adored, and shows himself to be the true God. Jer 10:11 "Thus you shall say to them: "The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth shall perish from the earth and from under these heavens. He has made the earth by His power, He has established the world by His wisdom, And has stretched out the heavens at His discretion." Psalm 96:5, " All the gods of the nations are idols: but the Lord made the heavens." Isa 37:16, "You are God, You alone, of all the kingdoms of the earth. You have made heaven and earth." None could make the world but God, because creation is a work of infinite power, and could not be produced by any finite cause: For the distance between being and not being is truly infinite, which could not be removed by any finite agent, or the activity of all finite agents united.

This verses are clear proof that Jesus is God... the Word is GOD. the only thing you can say is that Jesus did not take part in the creation

Please how does the above solve the problem of Jesus not being the first of Gods creation??......

God is over all and so can make that statement.....if God says he single handedly carried his people through the hard times from egypt to isreal,how does that contradict the fact that he did it through an agent MOSES

How does the scripture u quoted remedy you from the fact that Jesus existence is linked to his Father and that Jesus had a beginning.......

deSika: would you do me a favour. Would you show me where Jesus was given ability to create.

When God says let us make man. He was definitely talking to persons who already had the ability to create.

My point is simple. Any person that has the ability to create life is a God. Only a God can create

so when God was talking he was not talking to angels, as angels dont have ability to create,

do you agree with me that its only a God that has the exclusive ability to create life

Godhead means the divine essence of God. It means deity.

You can as well ask the scriptures who granted the son to have life in himself........

There is nothing Jesus does or can do that was not given to him by his Father..

1.Creation
2..Ressurection..
3..Rulership


And as regards the Godhead definition...

Is God the Father part of a Godhead or he grants it to whom ever wishes??.....

Uyi Iredia: I'll be 23 this years ending. Funny though, cuz people say I'm appear older than my age.

What!!!!!!!..

UYI are you for real??.......

benalvino: that's a silly question. the father is the beginning and the end... beginner of existence... same with Jesus. Jesus is GOD... he has all the features of God... Only God creates... nothing was created by angels man or whatever... only God alone creates. So Jesus is GOD.

Ahhh I see....


I can see that you can't provide the right answer.....

And now you are hearing that Jesus' own life was kick started.....

He is the very beginning of Gods creation.....

Your case would have been remedied if revelation says Jesus Christ is the beginning of Jesus' creation.....

But as it is he is the beginning of someone elses creation.......

Now answer my question...

From your stiff necked definition of Christ being the beginning of Gods creation,can we also say the Father is the beginning of Gods creation.....??....

And mind you:::....the Father is greater than Jesus.....

benalvino: Can we conclude that Jesus create him self? since you want the bible to contradict it self

Naaa....Jesus was created by the Father whom he owes his life and existence to....

Thank you....

You still can't answer why the Father can't be the beginning of Gods creation.....or maybe the holy spirit....

Mighty Sparrow: The thread is not worth arguing about. If you have problem about Jesus' identity get to reading the Bible alone and get rid of books and interpretations of Bible by so called teachers they mislead. Jesus said ' the word I speak unto you are spirit and truth....' I John 2: 27 you do not need any teacher to mislead you. Do not be lazy start from Genesis through revelation and again, One JW was taunting me years ago. That led my into the scriptures without reading any other books or very few books. By the time I read seven times I made up my mind to join a denomination I found out is in line with the meaning of scriptures. I found out if you read to argue or criticise you WILL see the beauty, the intent and content of the Bible. I await your testimony if you follow this humble advice.

And which denomination are you with now??.....

The discussion is still on o....

Please read what the supposed source of all life said.......

New International Version
(©2011)
Just as the living Father sent me
and I live because of the Father,
so the one who feeds on me will
live because of me.

New Living Translation (©2007)
I live because of the living Father
who sent me; in the same way,
anyone who feeds on me will live
because of me.

benalvino: read my original post... you will see the beginning explained using your bible... I should you all the definition which include source and origin also... they quote verses parallel to rev 3:14 like john 1:1-3 colo 1:15. yet you take meaning that contradict the whole thing... from your bible beginning is rendered as Government(ruler ship) it obvious you running away from fact.

Naaa........

Beginning of someone elses work,acts and doings is what we are looking at and not just the mere word beginning...........

Please open your eyes.....

I would show you something now...so that even the chief of Gods creation you are holding on to still boils down to the fact that Jesus is part of things created but the first....

Let's consider psalm 78:51 where this same expression is used...I want you to compare these scriptures and see the point I'm making.....



New International Version
(©2011)
He struck down all the firstborn
of Egypt, the firstfruits of
manhood in the tents of Ham.

New Living Translation (©2007)
He killed the oldest son in each
Egyptian family, the flower of
youth throughout the land of
Egypt.

English Standard Version
(©2001)
He struck down every firstborn in
Egypt, the firstfruits of their
strength in the tents of Ham.

New American Standard Bible
(©1995)
And smote all the firstborn in
Egypt, The first issue of their
virility in the tents of Ham.

King James Bible (Cambridge
Ed.)
And smote all the firstborn in
Egypt; the chief of their strength
in the tabernacles of Ham:

Holman Christian Standard Bible
(©2009)
He struck all the firstborn in
Egypt, the first progeny of the
tents of Ham.

International Standard Version
(©2012)
He struck every firstborn in
Egypt, the first fruits of their
manhood in the tents of Ham.

NET Bible (©2006)
He struck down all the firstborn
in Egypt, the firstfruits of their
reproductive power in the tents
of Ham.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
(©2010)
He killed all the firstborn of
Egypt, the first of all their
children in the tents of Ham.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
(©1995)
He slaughtered every firstborn in
Egypt, the ones born in the tents
of Ham when their fathers were
young.



American Standard Version
And smote all the first-born in
Egypt, The chief of their strength
in the tents of Ham.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he killed all the firstborn in
the land of Egypt: the firstfruits
of all their labour in the
tabernacles of Cham.

Darby Bible Translation
And he smote all the firstborn in
Egypt, the first-fruits of their
vigour in the tents of Ham.

English Revised Version
And smote all the firstborn in
Egypt, the chief of their strength
in the tents of Ham:

Webster's Bible Translation
And smote all the first-born in
Egypt; the chief of their strength
in the tabernacles of Ham:

World English Bible
and struck all the firstborn in
Egypt, the chief of their strength
in the tents of Ham.

Young's Literal Translation
And He smiteth every first-born
in Egypt, The first-fruit of the
strong in tents of Ham



Now juxtapose all the other renderings with the KJV who used chief of

The literal word there projects arche of,but all these renderings have even gone further to explain it......

These firstborns were the first of or the beginning of(chief of) the reproductive powers of the egyptians.....

They were amongst the begeted sons of the egyptians but the first.....

My point:::.....

Even if we say Jesus is the chief of Gods creation it doesn't exempt him from being part of Gods creation,it only shows he is the first of it.....

For goodness sake we are talking about Gods creation and not Jesus' creation.....

I want you to use scriptures to project meanings not just what you have done...

Remember we are not defining just the single word arche,we are considering this word when used in an expression(beginning of) addressed to someone who is tied up to someone elses activity.......

benalvino: I have told you he is the Source of the creation of God... it goes with colossians and John 1:1-3

Now you forgot about 1 corinthians 8:6

Which emphasizes on the Fact I'm harping on.....

1 Corinthians 8:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father,
of whom are all things, and we in him; and one
Lord Jesus Christ, by(through) whom are all things, and
we by him.


Now I want you to notice what I'm noticing.....

The son isn't the source of all things because Jesus himself has his own source as the Father.......


Now this is why Jesus can rightly be called the beginning of the creation of God....

benalvino: this are all definition from dictionary. in my original post I made research for "ar-khay' which means source, origin and in this dictionary meaning you see source and origin is there...
1. The act or process of bringing or being brought into being; a start.
2. The time when something begins or is begun: the beginning of the war.
3. The place where something begins or is begun: at the beginning of the road.
4. A source; an origin: What was the beginning of the dispute?
5. The first part: The front matter is at the beginning of the book.
6. An early or rudimentary phase. Often used in the plural

Now from the bolded can't we say Jesus is part of the things created but the first??....

When we say the beginning of the war.....can we say the starting point of that war isn't part of the war ??......


If I say the front matter is at the beginning of the book...isn't the front matter part of the book but at the first part??..is the front matter outside the book??...

How can Jesus be the beginning of Gods creation and not be part of the creation but the first of it....

benalvino: again he wasn't the first from the dead... you can say the first that resurrected with eternal life... ok why didn't the bible just say first from the dead? if you read further you will see "in everything he will have preeminence" he conquered death that is it... he is above death. see the example when God made david his firstborn... it means David was above all the Kings and Israel was above all the nations when God made Israel his firstborn.

One side of your argument firstborn means First created or birth. another side of your argument it means first to raise up from the dead... then why still use firstborn in that case?

Now I'm showing you what firstborn means in all its sense when applied to Jesus......


Now let us analyze isreal being Gods firstborn....isn't isreal the first nation God had ever dealt with??....uh??....

God created that nation but the first...

Now when it is said Jesus is firstborn from the dead it simply means he is the first person God ever resurrected to immortality and also to heavenly life....he is the firstfruit of those who have died and who would expereince ressurection....now I wouldn't exempt Jesus as someone who didn't taste death all in the end just to name him firstborn.....Jesus didn't conquer death by just sitting in heaven with his Father..he tasted death and was ressurected by his Father that is why he is rightly called firsborn(first fruit) from the dead...read 1 corinthians 15:20,23

Remember colossians was all about Jesus being firstborn in all ramifications....

benalvino: When Jesus was in Heaven he was a spirit when he came to earth he was describe as the exact representation of GOD image. So?
he has all the authority... the church is his bride. the church is the body and he is the head.

And he still is the image of God in heaven...how about that??....and guess who made him the head of the church.??....his Father...I hope you know??...

And God his Father gave him the authority....and ofcousre his Father who gave him the authority is excepted,while Jesus is under his authority...don't forget to add that clause....

benalvino: Jesus is the source of all creation the father is the source of all creation too... Jesus is the beginning and end so is the father... the bible says the whole universe heaven and earth is intact because of him.

Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation....the Father isn't and can't be.....he is the source of Jesus' life and existence......

The scriptures says the whole universe came through him....the Jesus himself lives because of the Father...

benalvino: New American Standard Bible (©1995)
He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

When it says all things it excepts the Father who isn't the beginning of Gods creation but includes Jesus who was formed but first......

benalvino: Rev 3:14 you problem is that you want jesus to be created so seeing beginning you want to use it... I don explain to you that its source, ruler or oringin of GOD's creation... Oringin and Source equals beginning... now lets look at all the translation and see how they did it. and if KJV they try to play wayo them go be the last people to put beginning there... which means KJV is not biased.

You only explained with the dictionary alone...I explained with a juxtaposed verse with the same exact words and expressions coupled with your dictionary meaning..........

You never answerd my question as to how reuben is the beginning of jacobs reproductive strenght....is he the source or a part of jacobs progeny but the first??

Remember the Jw's have allinged this expression with other exisiting expressions to get the full gist......

benalvino: New International Version (©2011)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation.

New Living Translation (©2007)
"Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's new creation:

English Standard Version (©2001)
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[/b]Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"Write to the angel of the church in Laodicea: "The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, [b]the Originator of God's creation says:

International Standard Version (©2012)
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: 'The Amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the originator of God's creation, says this:

NET Bible (©2006)
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write the following: "This is the solemn pronouncement of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the originator of God's creation:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
“And to The Messenger of the assembly of the Laidiqians write: “Thus says The Eternal, The Trustworthy and True Witness, and The Source of The Creation of God:”

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"To the messenger of the church in Laodicea, write: The amen, the witness who is faithful and true, the source of God's creation, says:

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

[/b]American King James Version
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things said the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the [b]beginning of the creation of God;

American Standard Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Douay-Rheims Bible
And to the angel of the church of Laodicea, write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, who is the beginning of the creation of God:

Darby Bible Translation
And to the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

English Revised Version
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God:

Webster's Bible Translation
And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Weymouth New Testament
"And to the minister of the Church at Laodicea write as follows: "'This is what the Amen says--the true and faithful witness, the Beginning and Lord of God's Creation.

World English Bible
"To the angel of the assembly in Laodicea write: "The Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Head of God's creation, says these things:

Young's Literal Translation
'And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness -- the faithful and true -- the chief of the creation of God;

Now they have translated the beginning of Gods creation to mean the head of Gods creation....and how sweet of you to use other renditions.....

Now can we apply this rendered verses to other verses which existed before this verse that used the expression beginning of and still get the same meaning??........


Please read genesis 49:3 and also deuteronomy 21:15-17 and apply your definition of beginning of and let's get the true meaning......

Please open these same translations and do the research .......

The scriptures must explain itself and not some greek philosphical base doing it for us.....

Let us consider in all of the scriptures where this expression is used and get the meaning.....

Thank you...

benalvino: it shows that he is the Lord of Creation of God... he created all things he starts all things he is the source in which the universe came to be.

can the father be the beginning of God creation? how can he? it doesn't say he created Jesus in rev 3:14.

the bible says Jesus is his word his power and wisdom... I cant tell when God didn't have all this attribute. if you still think Jesus was created by God then the contradiction that arise you have to clear them here... Let me quote

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.

and

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

That is why I am asking when Jesus is said to be the wisdom,power and word of God is it trying to tell us that Jesus was in Gods brain and was in Gods vocal cords or he was literally Gods power??......

Now we have still not analyzed the genesis case study I brought up so that we can get to the main meaning of Jesus being the beginning of Gods(another persons) creation........I want you to critically analyze that well brought out scripture so that we can reach a concensus

It is obvious Jesus isn't the God mentioned in revelation 3:14 of which he is the beginning of the creation of that GOD...

And how does the expression lord of creation of God sound in your ears??

The Lord of the creation of GOD contradicts what ever you are supporting......

the truth is this expression should never have been used on Jesus if he never had a beginning......

Colossians says he is the

## head of the church
##firstborn from among the dead(did Jesus not die being part of the class of the dead so as to become firstborn among those who died and who will test ressurection)
##the image of God..
##..firstborn of all creation....

Now the question comes......

1..Who made Jesus head of the church??...
2...How is Jesus the firstborn among the dead??.....

I can see you concured to the fact that the Father can't be the beginning of Gods creation even when you boldy stick to the definition that beginning of means source.......

Now the question is why can't the Father be the beginning of Gods creation from your definition of beginning of and your belief in the trinity....??.....

obadiah777: THIS MATTER NO BE SMALL MATTER MY BROTHER IJAWKID. I SEE HEAVY NUKES TWO DAYS STRAIGHT SIRE. HEAVY FIRE POWER AND MUSHROOM CLOUDS

E remain me wey never begin dream o.....

Maybe I go activate that dreaming part of my brain.........

Let all of us dream dreams bro.....

Buzu man are you still seeing nukes in ya dream??..........

And please be ready to tell us if these expressions can be said of the Father....

Can the Father be the firstborn of all creation since he and the son are co-equal...

Can the Father be the beginning of Gods creation??.........

Oyaaa.....

Let us look at these scriptures critically and apply it to all members of the Godhead so to speak.....

benalvino: That becoming of my strength should read source of my strength... Beginning of my strength doesn't make sense... Translation wahala... Arch means source also. I explained it well on the post. If it says GOD is the beginning whether creation or not it doesn't mean he has a beginning and it doesn't mean he has end too... The post made it clear. That verse should read source

Please let's discuss a replica in the greek septuagint.....

I have brought out a perfect replica...infact both firstborn of and beginning of is used for reuben.....

I quoted another rendition alongside it for you to get the main point.....

Now I would ask again...

If u insist reuben is the source of Jacobs virility how does that make sense??......

Does it exempt reuben from Jacobs kids??......

You can't just say that verse should read source and then you run away.....

Let us use this genesis 49:3 as a case syudy and get down to business....

The Jw's have considered similar use of such expressions in the scriptures to aRrive at the results they have today....

Nobody assumed it......juxtapositions brought it out........

The expression beginning of is not new to the scriptures...it had occured several times before it was used on Jesus in revelation 3:14....

Oya let's consider reuben then we get back to Jesus.......

And I noticed u never brought out all the examples of the use of firstborn.....

We will get to that...

frosbel: Both you and the JWs have missed it, Jesus was born through a woman, end of.

We are goint to drive home the same point that Jesus had a beginning......

Now let us consider the revelation 3:14....

You did well by defining what beginning is (arche) and also stating God is said to be the alpha and omega.......

Correct......

But like I have asked you before can we say the Father is the beginning of Gods creation??....can we say God is the beginning of Gods creation??....you failed to see that point with all the rant in this post....

Now when it is said the Father is the beginning and the end what does it mean??.....

Does it mean the same thing when it is said Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation??......

Now let's look at scriptures from which the expreSsion is taken from...

Remember,the scriptures explains itself....

I had quoted these scriptures before but you found it very very hard to explain,infact you were confused while answering them.....

King James Bible (Cambridge
Ed.)
Reuben, thou art my firstborn, my
might, and the beginning of my
strength, the excellency of
dignity, and the excellency of
power:


Holman Christian Standard Bible
(©2009)
Reuben, you are my firstborn, my
strength and the firstfruits of my
virility, excelling in prominence,
excelling in power.


I have brought out a verse to juxtapose with revelation 3:14....you have not done it but rather defined what beginning means only......

Now from the scripture quoted what does reuben being the beginning of Jacobs strength or virility mean??....may I remind you that the same greek words occur in the greek septuagint translation at the above gen 49:3 quoted....

1...Is reuben the source of jacobs reproductive powers or the first product of jacobs reproductive powers??.....



The Father is said to be the beginning and end ....Jesus is said to be the beginning of Gods creation.......totally different things......



Please let us use scriptures to answer scriptures....

After this I'll come to firstborn....we go dey do am small small.....