₦airaland Forum

Don't judge what you know nothing about.

1. I had a prior agreement with JMAN05 before opening that thread.

2. I deliberately mentioned his moniker because the thread arose from his constant attacks on the Catholic faith and I wanted to take my issues up with him personally, not all JWs. Many of them do not necessarily go about demonizing my faith like him and I didnt want them to feel I was attacking all of them as Iindividuals.

3. JMAN05 practically asked for that thread. I kept warning him as he attacked my faith: "don't make me do this." He was like 'go ahead and do it., invite me when you do because i might not see it'

4. JMAN05 hasn't complained to me about his moniker on the title...he obviously is okay with it.

So please, I beg you once again, take off my moniker from the topic.

The way you have started out, it seems you are here for a confrontation. I don't want a confrontation.

@ Amara and Macof, I never said i was angry or pained. I dont even think the OP has necessarily done a bad thing. I'm just not COMFORTABLE with it and i have given my reasons.

[quote author=amara.lizzy%40y]But u started it wen u wrote anoda person's name for JW thread. First 2 do no dey pain but second 2 do dey pain most.[/quote]

Mrlouis: young man.. After creating this thread,. I stumbled on one which you created
https://www.nairaland.com/1506699/jman05-please-defend-jehovahs-witnesses

so pls dnt be a hypocrite bro and answer my questions accordingly. And no diversions. Am waiting.

Thank you.

macof: Italo you are a very big Hypocrite. you do something and get angry that someone else does it to u

typical christian attitude

^^^ see hypocrite complaining about provocation.

Well, it is obvious that a human being needs a brain first, then a Bible.

When a human being has a Bible without a brain, the result is this kind of threads.

#ignored

adsonstone: Yes, that what's taught in his church....just as Italo said.
He probably meant Christ's 1000-year started when the church started.
Infact, lemme repost the conversation and when he was refuted.




From all the story he wrote, I intentionally brought out the bold and asked....



....and here was his answer



You can check page 28 of this thread to see it.



....and here, he was refuted.
I had not even mentioned the other points that proved the catholic teaching false.
....Immediately he was refuted, being in shame, he cunningly quoted all my statement and diverted what's on hand.

This was what he said



....and when this was also clarified, he claimed he's ignoring.

Smh for liars and false teachers.

What makes it wrong?

JMAN05: Italo don smell am. if he sees you again, e go dodge. instead of him to sincerely say it is an unbiblical tradition, he is here looking for a scripture to twist it into. dey made the bible and forgot to insert purgatory.

oh! so catholic teach the bolded? so so so you mean that infallible catholic teach that bolded? so you mean they teach the bolded? ah!!! people like italo are the MOST insincere people on earth. I know you also believe that lie italo, not so?

please when did they say this rulership of christ began?

JMAN05: Maybe YOU should clarify your apostolic succession. You believe that Charles Russell the false prophet is a product of apostolic succession...so tell us who ordained him.

JMAN05: I don't believe the bonded. sorry, no road, divert to the other road.

Oh yeah? This is straight from your organization's publication:

"Jehovah's witnesses have a history almost 6,000 years long, beginning while the first man, Adam, was still alive ... [Abel was] the first of an unbroken line of Witnesses ... Jesus' disciples were all Jehovah's witnesses ..." Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose pp.8-9

So who's lying?

JMAN05 or his Watchtower Society?

It doesnt matter how hard you try, i will only answer you if and when i feel like..until you tell me what 1 Cor 3 is talking about, and show me where i said Atheists believe in God

adsonstone: yes, simply because you have no more lies to put foward.

The first that says the Hades/Purgatorium
inhabitants are judged before going there (a future judgment) has been refuted because It has been clearly shown that they are judged in the second judgment.

The second lie that states that Jesus's 1000-year reign has started has also been refuted (with just a point found in rev 20:2-3)....and immdiately you were refuted, refusing to own up or bow in shame, you diverted to this one that has just been clarified.

No more lies to put foward! Now claiming to be 'ignoring'.....mtcheeew....smh for your ignorance.

I mentioned earlier that you'll eventually shy away claiming you're ignoring.....and thats whats happening.

No problem anyway. Its the normal thing you do.

"Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood,you will never have life in you"--Jesus Christ.

"My flesh is real food; my blood is real drink."--Jesus Christ.


We shouldn't keep and obey these sayings too?

OLAADEGBU: You should rather listen to our Lord Jesus Christ and live. Here He stresses again and I quote:

"Verily, verily I say to you, If a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death" (John 8:51)

You find it difficult to understand the spiritual sayings of our Lord Jesus Christ just as His detractors in those days.

Anyone who obeys Him would not die. This is not advocating works as a means of salvation, but obedience as a sign of our salvation. We keep His word because we love Him (John 14:23).

God bless the Pope.

Your state of maturity has been noticed. Thanks.

KraticKratus: of course you can't deny it.

your real name is probably something like david, or solomon, or john, or samson, or samuel, or moses, or peter or gideon some other jewish name.

You're not making a sensible point. The researchers didnt say religious people dont ever commit suicide.

It says you Atheists and you families are more likely to destroy your lives than believers.

KraticKratus: https://www.nairaland.com/1515628/pastor-commits-suicide-after-sunday

I'm not the one calling you suicidal. Scientific research calls you suicidal.

KraticKratus:

ever heard of projection?

you lot worship a depressed suicidal fellow and you call others suicidal.

Logicboy03: Italo has a problem with levels....

The levels of sanctioned/approved infanticides have gone down

Levels of abortion, forced abortion has gone up.

Logicboy03: Chattel slavery is over and abolished....stop lying. In any developed country, you have minimum wages.

In every corner of the world, especially developed countries, there are modern day slaves who have little or no control over their labour and wages. As we speak, our Nigerian sisters are giving out their bodies all over the developed while pimps (slavemasters) smile to the bank. Go and learn about modern day slavery allover the world. Stop embarassing yourself.

Logicboy03: No more polio in developed countries.

Small pox is a thing of the past

Olodo. Go and read about new diseases caused by smoking, global warming etc. The ---------------------------------

Logicboy03: Furthermore, Italo, have planes and buses caused more harm than good? If the answer is that they have caused more good, why then would you claim that humans havent progressed? Are you just a liar?

I think you should ask the ozone layer. Is there any human being who isnt suffering from the effects of the depletion of the Ozone layer. Ask the Philippinos who are complaining about the role that global warming has played in disasters like the last typhoon, hurricane Sandy etc.

Where really is the progress?

And what will you say if technological advancement introduces or magnifies the danger of a new disease?

What will you say if the US drops a bomb that wipes off Syria from the world map?

You would call it progress?

There's no need to involve Yahweh in this. It seems that even you cannot have an intellectual discussion without involving God: the same thing you accuse religious people of.

Mr Troll: i'm sure if we finally eradicate malaria, Italo will still claim, NO PROGRESS. Lie for Yahweh, you will make heaven.

That is another topic. That would be going into spirituality.

I choose to talk with you about things you can understand/relate to, for now.

Mr Troll: lets say i agree with you. No progress().


SO WHAT THE HECK IS JOSH PRATTLING ABOUT THE FALL OF MAN!!!?

[/quote]

adsonstone: Not you and Peter.
You alone....because Peter believes that its some parts.

The bold in what I quoted in your statement reads
"You believe the Bible is easy to understand?"

Did that refer to some parts in your understanding?

Thank God you now agree that itz some parts.

Some things in Paul's letters AND "the other scriptures."

Do you know the "some things?"

If you dont know the things that are hard to understand in Paul's letters, doesnt that make the whole complicated?

Add the other scriptures which are hard to understand and tell me the Bible is easy to understand.

adsonstone: So, who did Peter say will not understand?
....and how can it be understood?


Honest answers.

Ignorant and unstable. It says they should flee the errors of lawless men and grow in grace.

Who has ever agreed that he is ignorant?

Adeboye, Kumuyi, Oyakhilome are all wise and they're teaching different things.

I dont know for sure. I'd say we're fairly equal.

There are many areas in which we are better off and there are many ways in which they were better off.

No progress. At least, no one here has been able to show that we've progressed overall.

Mr Troll: no. now let me ask you, overall do you think ancient men were better of than you now?

Go get a brain...

Ukuts gp: now, agree with me that it is a pagan gods u people are worshipping that day and i would rest my case. Simple.

*Ignored*

adsonstone: Come back here!

Are you trying to escape?

You have started you dishonesty again. Where did i say they believe God exists. Pls, if i outrightly ignore your posts in future, know that im just not ready to waste time on your dishonesty.

adsonstone: The bold isn't true.
They believe there exist no such person as God.

That's the point. Italo is a son of the Catholic Church.

We Catholics dont like personal recognition as many non-Catholics do.

"Catholics" already covers "italo."

My opinion is the opinion of the Church.

No need to single me out.

adsonstone: Following this thread.

I have similar questions too (not any form of critic though)....just to be clear about some things you do.

Regarding the thread title;
Are you not proud of being a catholic?
However, if you want it removed, I urge the op to pls, do so.

"it looks like" to you. If that were true, you'd only be corroborating the result of the research.

KraticKratus: Did I deny the scientific evidence? No.

I just applied it to your saviour and it look[color=#990000][/color]s like your saviour was scientifically an unbeliever.

Grow up naa

KraticKratus: that is not your name.

your mama probably gave you a jewish name.

Atheists know there is such a thing as religion and faith Iin the true God but they know there are many claims to it, though they dont believe in lt like you dont believe in apostolic succession.

Why should I clarify true apostolic succession to you if you dont want to clarify true religion to Atheists?

adsonstone: Atheists?
Much more different.

We both know that:
They don't even understand why they don't believe in God, they can't even explain what they believe in (especially the cause of the big bang).....how do you expect them to believe what's in the bible?

So, I don't waste time with them though I leave them with puzzling questions that shows them that they are without reason for not believing in God.


Our own discussion;
I know there such thing as apostolic succession but do you know how many claims are linked with it?
If that can be cleared, it would be much more better.

Just like the same way I know that there's a God approved religion and there are several claims as to which one is.

Mtchew!

adsonstone: That's no deceit.

It would be wrong for me to say that the whole passage talks about judgment and aftermath- which you may misunderstand my opinion.

That's why I separated them and showed what each talks about.

Get a brain, then we can discuss.

Ukuts gp: with the help of the holyspirit u can understand the bible perfectly. I know u are nt an unlearned person, the only thing is dat u always twist scripture to cover the truth. If nt, u know the truth but u are bias.

2 Peter 3:15 - And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you:16 - As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter and I never said Scripture cannot be understood, like you are trying to make sound.

We say there are certain things hard to understand.

It seems, even this, is hard for you to understand, much less scripture.

adsonstone: If the catholic church believes the Catholic Church believes the bible to be hard, Fine.
The Apostles Paul and Peter do not believe this. Their positions are clear.


Similarly, I (personally) don't believe that the bible is hard to understand because it is not a piece of riddle neither is it a pair of puzzle....though there are some parts that may be difficult but with proper study, it becomes easy.

We'll analyse this with reason....

Ephesians 3:3-4

Apostle Paul said:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto
me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand
my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

Here, the Apostle Paul shows He believes that you'll understand His writings to the Church.

Let's examine Apostle Peter's words.
1 Peter 3:16

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of
these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Here, He believes some things (not all) are hard to be understood in the 'bible' (see the first bold), He further says that they that are 'unlearned and unstable' (which I believe no Christian is....perhaps atheists and some other mischievous people) wrest....not all the scriptures and epistles (Bible) as Italo suggested.

Wrest according to Merriam Webster dictionary means:

1. to pull, force, or move by violent
wringing or twisting movements
2. to gain with difficulty by or as if by force,
violence, or determined labor

So, in that context of the Apostles message (wrest simply mean 'understand with difficulty') so, we can conclude that only the 'unlearned and unstable' misunderstand or understand the scriptures and epistles with difficulty. as Apostle Peter did.

....and if there's any Christian that is 'unlearned', here's apostle Paul's message of advice.

2 Timothy 2:15

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Chikena!

If the apostles believe (and say) you can do it (understand the bible), then you truly can (don't be deceived you can't).

Logicboy03: As usual, you see everyone who doesnt agree with you as crazy.

You are yet to show me how we're better off than the people of old.

[quote author=Logicboy03]You are talking nonsense as usual

1) Technology and information- do you have any idea how many would have not died if the isrealites had google maps to avoid using the long route to the promised land from Egypt? Furthermore, buses and aeroplanes could have helped them

The same google maps that are used to guide missiles to destroy humans. The same buses and airplanes that have crashed to kill millions and contribute to climate change that continues to kill many. The same airplanes that are used to kill millions in wars.

Logicboy03: 2) Infanticide has been around since the early ages. It is illegal almost everywhere on the planet. So you are chatting nonsense

It is happening. So where is the progress.

Logicboy03: 3) Chattel slavery is over compared to the old testament

Go and learn about modern day slavery. It is just as bad. There's no progress.


[quote author=Logicboy03]4) Molesters are no more married to their victims as in the old testament

There are many molesters within homes. There was even a case of a man who kept his daughter hostage and was having children by her. Domestic violence and molestation is just as bad as it has ever been. Where's the progress?

Logicboy03: 5) As a black man, are you telling me that you dont know your father or do not eat with your family? The situation of blacks is as a result of corruption and religion.....yes, religion

I do, but many dont. Why are they in that situation if we've progressed as Mr Troll says?

You dont want scientific evidence anymore?

Here's scientific research showing you're more likely to destroy yourself than me and you're going back to the Bible.

When believers quote from the Bible, you mock them saying their only proof of the Bible is the Bible.

When Believers cite scientific evidence, you start to quote the Bible.

That is hypocrisy!

KraticKratus: I wonder how Jesus would have fared if tested for depression and suicidal tendencies.

All through the gospels, we never once saw a passage where it said Jesus smiled or Jesus laughed or Jesus danced. Instead all we had was Jesus wept, Jesus got angry, Jesus got violent, Jesus cursed, Jesus prefered alcohol to water, Jesus was hungry, Jesus got himself killed. etc. etc. All charateristics of chronic depression with suicidal tendencies.

Makes me wonder if Jesus was an atheist.

I'd love to explain the Catholic faith to you, but first I have a request to make.

Can you please take my name off the title of the thread?

I'm not comfortable with it.

"Catholics please defend your doctrines here" wouldn't be bad, would it?

Thanks and God bless you.

Was Angel Michael existing in the form of God?

Emusan: I've compiled these verses for you and your Co who rejected the deity of Yehshua in different versions including yours.

AMP: Who, although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,
7 But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being.
8 And after He had appeared in human form, He abased and humbled Himself [still further] and carried His obedience to the extreme of death, even the death of the cross!


ESV: who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.


KJV: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


NASB: who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— even death on a cross!


CJB: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are.
8 And when he appeared as a human being, he humbled himself still more by becoming obedient even to death -death on a stake as a criminal!

NWT: 6 "Who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God."

Both agreed that Jesus exists in the form God, AMP inserted (possessing all fullness that makes God God) for simple logic.

What did you understand from these verses especially verse 6?

Verse6 talks about His early life.
Verse7 talks about the process of His incarnation into human.
Verse8 talks about His obedient.

I dey come, i go give you quotes my MB is too low for me to be searching now. Patience.

BERNIMOORE: @ italo, (only italo should respond to this querry pls )

i just saw this thread today,

and im picking just your very first allegation, and note pls that im not a jehovahs witnesses, but I am interested because i want someone to convince me and not beign myopic or adamant, but beyond all reasonable doubt, I am not here to defend the jehovahs witnesses, but to evaluate your claims and how substantial they are, and see to it wheather there was a publication of which you can make a full page available here on the thread or a PDF or even a screenshut ......where russel did actually said that

1, jesus had phisically return to the earth in 1914 and gone

Like you said, its in black and white.

Your explanation of first and last holds no water.

God is the first and the last.

Jesus is the first and the last.

Jesus is God.

truthislight: @Italo

You have certain beliefs that is preventing you from seeying one basic truth, that the act of Going to heaven has not always been available befor the coming of Jesus christ,

infact, the act of Going to heaven is a new thing in Gods arrangement. Do you think that those that died befor Jesus death went to heaven ? No, they did not, the way to heaven was open by Jesus.

Infact, he promised it first to his disciples, that he has to first go and prepare a place for them.

If there was already a place for humans, why did he has to go first to "prepare a place" ?

Now, read this scriptures concerning Jesus statement in relation to his father and resurrection/judgement:

"Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. " (John 5:19-27).
...................................

Now, lets look into what you wrote below in the light of the scriptures above.



you need to get the sense of that ^ scripture.
Read the below my friend:

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24).

It was God that resurrected Jesus.



it is like you did not understand what i had posted befor, i had said to "immortal heavenly life", all those resurrected people did not go to heaven, as such, there is a big difference between Jesus resurrection to heavenly life and their own resurrection.
Jesus kind of resurrection was something special and unique. No human have ever experience such befor > immortal heavenly resurrection.


what Jesus did was Yahweh's, since Jesus is Yahweh's representative. He is a messenger of Yahweh.



all other heavenly resurrection is done by Jesus.



none of the dead befor Jesus death went to heaven/immotality. So, it is not the same, Jesus is the first of its kind, and the last to be so resurrected.




Hehehehe, cool down
you did not understand what i had written.




Yahweh is not the first from the dead and had no need to be resurrected.




Yes, first from the dead-colossians 2:18.
The last to be so resurrected to heavenly life by Yahweh to Immortal heavenly life.




Hehehe, jesus is a messanger of Yahweh.

I keep on telling you to cool down, cool down, you will not agree, so, cool down.