₦airaland Forum

asalimpo:
like i said,do your research. This is an open blatant secret just like the child pedophilia scandal and the reluctance of the watchtower to deliver the names of offenders to justice. Or will you say i should provide links for those too! You provide links from jw,what dyu expect them to say?

Hypocrite and lying Pharisee, I challenge you to name just one pedophile and rapist in your Church that you have exposed and brought to justice.

Also, show us strong evidence here that you have exposed and publicly reprimanded the serial adulterous pastorpreneurs in your Churches who defile young girls and defile the marriage beds of their gullible flocks.

Deluded bigot !

Emusan:
You should have posted some links to support your claim.

Anyways, I got these two!

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/scarlet-beast-of-revelation-17/


https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/united-nations-association.php

asalimpo:

Jehovah's Witnesses and the United
Nations: How the Watchtower Society
Fooled Millions (Paperback)


https://www.amazon.com/Jehovahs-Witnesses-United-Nations-Watchtower/dp/1466387602

Lying Pharisees and hypocrites una food dun done.

JW matter dey disturb una brain sottayy any copy and paste falsehood una see online go dey give una wet dream.

Isce:
Note that there is no justification for translating proskuneo as worship in contexts dealing with the Father and as obeisance in contexts dealing with Jesus.

Isce:
PROSKYNEO-Always "Worship"?

At Matthew 2:11 the American Standard Version reads:

"And they[the 'magi']came into the house and saw the young child with Mary his mother: and they fell down and worshipped[Gk: PROSKYNEO]him;..."

In a footnote they add:

"³The Greek word denotes an act of reverence whether paid to a creature(see ch. 4:19, 18, 26), or to the Creator(see ch. 4:10)."

Also at this place Weymouth's translation reads: "..they prostrated themselves and did Him homage...".

Again, in a footnote, we can read: "[vv]8, 11. Do him homage] Or perhaps 'worship' See John ix. 38.n."

An accusation of the New World Translation usually reads:

"Matthew 2:11: "Bowed down and worshipped him" changed to "did obeisance to it". The JWs evade recognizing Jesus as worthy of worship as a divine being by altering the form of honor that he receives from men and angels. The Greek word proskuneo literally means "worship." The use of "obeisance" is a NWT adaptation. (Same revision found in Matt. 8:2; 9:18, 14:33; 15:25; 28:9, 17; *Mark 5:6(see remark * below); 15:19; Luke 24:52; John 9:38; Heb. 1:6.)"

Rendering PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" can hardly be termed a "NWT adaptation!

Vines Expository Dictionary says under this word:

"1.PROSKUNEO...,to make obeisance, do reverence to(from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss)is the most frequent word rendered to worship."

A Manual Greek Lexicon of the New Testament, by G.Abbott-Smith, 3rd edition, p.386 says:

"[pros-kuneo],..(< kuneo,to kiss),....to make obeisance, do reverance to, worship.

A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, by William F.Arndt and F.Wilbur Gingrich, 1957, says on pages 723,724, under proskuneo:

"...used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before a person, and kissing his feet, the hem of his garment, the ground, etc, .....(fall down) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully.(see here Reinecker's Linguistic Key, p.2, where the above is quoted at Matthew 2:2)

"1 to human beings who, however, are to be recognised by this act as belonging to a supernatural realm...

"2 to God...a)of the God worshipped by monotheists...

"5)to Jesus, who is revered and worshipped as Messianic King and Divine Helper: Mt.2:2, 8, 11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; J 9:38.....-The risen Lord is esp.the object of worship: Mt.28:9,17; Lk 24:52..."

Lastly, The New Thayers Greek-Lexicon of the New Testament, Joseph Henry Thayer, p.548:

"[proskuneo]......to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence....hence in the N.T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage(to one)or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication...".

*Regarding Mark 5:6 where in the KJV we read "But when he[the demon-possessed man]saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him." Ralph Earle in his Word Meanings In The New Testament writes: "Worshipped It is true that proskyneo...means "to make obeisance, do reverence to, worship. The pertinent question remains: Would the demon-possessed man be worshipping Jesus, even though he called Him "Son of the Most High God"(NASB, NIV, RSV)? Probably "fell on his knees in front of him"(NIV) is a safer translation."-p.37, Hendrickson Publishers, 4th printing, June 2000.

We see here that _context_ can determine what kind of PROSKYNEO it is that is being rendered.

So "to do obeisance" is an acceptable rendition for PROSKYNEO. There is nothing in the word itself, when used in respect to Jesus, that it meant the worship of that one as God Almighty.

So that, while the New International Version says at Matthew 2:11:

"[the Magi] bowed down and worshipped him[the babe Jesus],"

the Revised English Bible (1990)reads here:

"they bowed low in homage to him."

Did the Magi do PROSKYNEO to the babe Jesus as to one born a King or as God Almighty? Surely it was the former. The word at Matthew 2:11 has the same sense of "worship" or "obeisance" that the Canaanites received from Abraham(Gen 23:7, 12.LXX),or that Esau received from his brother Jacob(Gen.33:3, 6, 7.LXX) and toward Daniel from King Nebuchadnezzar(Daniel 2:46,LXX). When we "bow down to," or do "worship"(PROSKYNEO) towards one that is not Jehovah God then that "worship" is different from that which we give to Him. But in the Bible the same word is used whether such "worship" is that directed toward God, or men, or angels(creatures).

The New World Translation is no more inconsistent in it's treatment of this word than the Revised English Bible.

Whilst the REV has "bowed down"[PROSKYNEO] at Matthew 2:11 in respect of the Magi towards Jesus, it renders PROSKYNEO at John 4:23,24 as "worship" when Jesus tells the Samaritan woman that :

"God is spirit,and those who worship[PROSKYNEO] him must worship[PROSKYNEO] in spirit and truth."

At Revelation 3:9 Jesus says, according to the King James Version:

"Behold, I will make them of the synogogue of Satan....behold, I will make them to come down and worship[PROSKYNEO] before thy feet."

Did Jesus mean to contradict himself here when earlier he had said that only God should be worshipped? (Matthew 4:10.) Of course not. It is simply that PROSKYNEO can be, as has already been shown, to have the sense of "bowing down" as to a superior or the giving of honour, respect. Hence, most modern Bible versions i.e. NIV, TEV, REB do not so render PROSKYNEO here, Rev.3:9, as "worship".

Therefore, at this point, we should be able to see that it would _not_ be inconsistent to render PROSKYNEO at times as "to do obeisance," or at times "worship".

The English word "worship" to a reader or the Bible _might_ lead them to think that that in itself is 'proof' that Jesus is God for only God should be "worshipped". They might consider when coming across "worship" toward Jesus(in any translation that does so)as "adoration paid to God."-The New Universal Dictionary. That is the first definition given. But not the only one. This same dictionary also defines the English word "worship" as "the quality of being worthy; honour, respect, reverence...submissive respect." Hence, even though a translator would choose to always translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" this would be no proof that Jesus is God and hence, consequently, the converse would also be true: That to render PROSKYNEO as "obeisance" when given to Jesus would not be "remov[ing] every reference to Jesus' being worshiped." What this means is that we must not read too much into translations that choose to translate PROSKYNEO as "worship" in reference to Jesus as if that then shows that Jesus, the Son, must be God. The Greek word itself does not show this. Hence, the translator's theology has a rightful role to play in the choice of the English rendering of PROSKYNEO.

Some would object to the New World Translation's position here because they believe that Jesus is God. But it has first to be accepted that the word PROSKYNEO can be rendered the way the NWT, and indeed others, have so done. And that it is wholly incorrect to call it a "NWT adaptation" or an "inconsistency"! But the question remains:

Why has the NWT rendered it as "obeisance" when it is used in reference to Jesus?

It would be best here to let The Watchtower magazine of November 15th, 1970 answer. It says, partly:

" While some translators use the word "worship" in the majority of cases where proskyneo describes persons' actions toward Jesus, the evidence does not warrant one's reading too much into this rendering. Rather, the circumstances that evoked the obeisance correspond very closely with those producing obeisance to the earlier prophets and kings. (Compare Matthew 8:2; 9:18; 15:25; 20:20 with 1 Samuel 25:23, 24; 2 Samuel 14:4-7; 1 Kings 1:16; 2 Kings 4:36, 37.)

"The very expressions of those involved often reveal that, while they clearly recognized Jesus as God's representative, they rendered obeisance to him, not as to God or a deity, but as "God's Son," the foretold "Son of man," the Messiah with divine authority.- Matt. 14:32, 33; 28:5-10, 16-18; Luke 24:50-52; John 9:35, 38. While earlier prophets and also angels had accepted obeisance, Peter stopped Cornelius from rendering such to him. And the angel (or angels) of John's vision twice stopped John from doing so, referring to himself as a "fellow slave"and concluding with the exhortation to "worship God."-Acts 10:25, 26; Rev. 19:10; 22:8, 9.

"Evidently Christ's coming had brought in new relationships affecting standards of conduct toward others of God's servants. He taught his disciples that "one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers . . . your Leader is one, the Christ." (Matt. 23:8-12) For it was in him that the prophetic figures and types found their fulfillment, even as the angel told John that "the bearing witness to Jesus is what inspires prophesying." (Rev. 19:10) Jesus was David's Lord, the greater than Solomon, the prophet greater than Moses. (Luke 20:41-43; Matt. 12:42; Acts 3:19-24) The obeisance rendered those men prefigured that due Christ. Peter therefore rightly refused to let Cornelius make too much of him. So, too, John, by virtue of having been declared righteous or justified by God as an anointed Christian, called to be a heavenly son of God and a member of his Son's kingdom, was in a different relationship to the angel(s) of the revelation than were the Israelites to whom angels earlier appeared. As the apostle Paul had written: "Do you not know that we shall judge angels?" (1 Cor. 6:3) The angel(s) evidently recognized this change of relationship when rejecting John's obeisance. On the other hand, Christ Jesus has been exalted by his Father to a position second only to God, so that "in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father."- Phil. 2:9-11; compare Daniel 7:13, 14, 27."

One Catholic critic has recently stated:

"The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning - which can mean either our traditional use of the word today - being ‘adoration’ or simply just ‘obeisance’. My point is that the NWT should not impose its theology by dicing up ‘proskuneo’ between obeisance and worship - one to apply to Jesus and other creatures and the other to God. Translate the Greek word consistently, and then try and explain passages that appear to go against your interpretation. The Watchtower does the exact opposite. It imposes its theology on ‘proskuneo’ to take the ‘difficulty’ out of the interpretation. To me, that is an abomination"

He said this after quoting the Jerusalem Bible in passages in Matthew where proskyneo is used toward Jesus. But if this gentleman had checked this up with another Catholic translation the New American Bible of 1986 he might have been more restrained in his comments toward the WTB&TS and the New World Translation. In actual fact the New American Bible is not as consistent as he probably would like. Though the NAB does translate proskyneo as "homage" at Matthew 2:2,8,11; 8:2; 9:18: 14:33; 15:25; 18:26; 20:20; 28:9 it does not do so at Matthew 28:17. Would this critic call the NAB here at this place "an abomination" because of failing to be "consistent" with the other places it translates the word as "homage"? The Revised English Bible has done exactly the same. Another Bible translation that was also not "consistent" at Matthew 28:17 because it rendered proskyneo differently than the other places cited above? See also Barclay's translation. But going back to the New American Translation. If one looks up in how it has translated proskneo at Mark 5:6; Luke 24:52; John 9:38 we can see that it does not measure up to this critic level of consistency for in those places in Mark and Luke it is rendered as "prostrated" and "homage" respectively yet in John 9:38 as "worship." So when the critic says "The point is that legitimate bibles use the word[proskyneo]consistently, and let the reader interpret its meaning" has he not charged the Catholic New American Bible as one that is not "legitimate"? Does he feel that same way toward the New American Bible as he does toward the New World Translation : "To me, that is an abomination." Yet the New American Bible has the nihil obstat and imprimatuer of the Catholic Church. Has he not called an "abomination" that which has the witness of his own Catholic Church that it is a faithful translation of the Holy Word?

Of course, neither the New World Translation or any other Bible translation including the New American Bible "dices" up "'proskuneo’ between "obeisance" and "worship." Any glance at a good Greek lexicon as can be seen above will make that charge a lie.

Isce your 2nd post shows there is justification for translating proskuneo as worship in contexts dealing with the Father and as obeisance in contexts dealing with Jesus.
2nd post contradicts your first post . you're confused and lying.

johnw47:
i love repeating the truth and verses from God's word which you hate

whereas you say the same things and post the same verses over and over again which have been explained to you
more than once, but you in your confusion you do not understand or know anything

You and your father is one entity because you have lost your sense.
Johnw lying pharisee mumu is a non contagious chronic infection.
Lol.

johnw47:
blinded false jw winky max

Jesus is Jehovah

Jehovah
Deu 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Jesus
Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Incidentally, see at Deut 17:14 God is referred to as a mighty God, and we know that God is also referred to as Almighty God, they are not two gods, a mighty god jesus and a almighty god the father as false jw believe.

God is one, not two gods, oh duh duh

John lying Pharisee sounding like a broken record.
Men are mighty God too (Ps 82:1 ,6)
Jesus Christ is NOT and NEVER the Almighty God.
Jesus is son of God, Adam is, angels are too. (John1:49
Job38:7).

Jehovah is the only true God, so says Jesus Christ (John 17:3).
You can't worship some one Higher than you (John14:28) and you still claim to be that person you worship (John 20:17,30,31. 5:26, Phi2:9,10).

Christ received authority from his God and Father, yet you LIED he is God himself.
Your sense dey your an.u.s , that's so obvious for sure.

Emusan:
You've shifted the goal post to God's own blood.



JWs, you accused KJV of being fraudulent by inserting the word GOD which was not found in the original manuscript so that they can promote Trinity.

Isn't your own organization dubiously inserted the word Son in Acts 20:28 to promote their devil doctrines of Jesus not God?

.

Emusan lying Pharisee in sifia pains !

The most popular Bible verse condemns your senseless insensitivity to the truth....

"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son..."
John 3:16
God loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.... God sent his son as saviour of the world"
1John4:10,14.
Gal 1:3,4 keeps resetting your brain but you cherish your mumu more than truth.

God NEVER sent himself !
He ALWAYS sends his sons as his messengers John 7:16. Judges 6:11-22.

brocab:
Well if I am lying-then the bible must be lying too-everything we write is written down from manuscripts out of the bible!


Yes we do know the JW's refuse Christ-

who made Sir Isaac Newton 'God-that he feels he has the rights to Change the scriptures.

Emusan:
you accused KJV of being fraudulent by inserting the word GOD which was not found in the original manuscript so that they can promote Trinity.

The triple fraud of brocab lying Pharisee.

brocab post=Well if I am lying-then the bible must be lying too-

Brocab lying Pharisee, your fellow Pharisee disagrees with you...
that "the word GOD which was not found in the original manuscript" of 1Tim3:16.

"We do know the JWs refuse Christ"
-


Even though you read these words of Jesus Christ (Matt16:13-17 John 3:16. 5:26,37. 6:46. Rev3:5,12-14,21), in your Bible from today till kingdom come, you will still refuse to believe Jesus Christ (John 20:17,30,31).

Brocab lying Pharisee without sense

jahm4u@gmail.com

shadeyinka:

You have a good point @bolded.
However, there are some keywords which show the exclusiveness of Jehovah creating everything by Himself.

Who was with Me!
OR
Alone!


Isaiah 44:24:
‘This is what Jehovah says, your Repurchaser,+
Who formed you since you were in the womb:
“I am Jehovah, who made everything.
I stretched out the heavens by myself,+
And I spread out the earth.+
Who was with me?

The Question who was with Me? Excludes everyone else.

I built this business by myself is valid
However
I built this business alone is very very specific.

None of us existed when Jehovah created heaven and earth. We don't have ALL minute details of what occurred.
It's not about JWs sticking to scriptures that suit them, as you claimed.
The point is sticking with what the scriptures revealed to us.
In view of Prov 8:22-30, John 1:1-3 & Heb1:1-2, Jesus the son "through whom Jehovah made the universe"
*Jehovah's expression "who was with me?" is understood from the perspective of God taking the glory for His works. Heb3:4.
Since Jesus acknowledged his Father as the Creator, Christ accorded the glory to his Father he called " Lord of heaven and earth" Matt 11:25, (Eph3:14,15).
To cling to "who was with me?" statement is insignificant.

Isce:
. If they say proskuneo means do obeisance to Jesus and the same word means to worship Jehovah then that is what they will believe.



Matthew 2:2 Saying <lego>, Where <pou> is <esti> he that is born <tikto> King <basileus> of the Jews <Ioudaios>? for <gar> we have seen <eido> his <autos> star <aster> in <en> the east <anatole>, and <kai> are come <erchomai> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>. KJ

NWT; 2 saying: “Where is the one born king of the Jews? For we saw his star [when we were] in the east, and we have come to do him obeisance.”

As applied to the Father;

KJ John 4:23 But <alla> the hour <hora> cometh <erchomai>, and <kai> now <nun> is <esti>, when <hote> the true <alethinos> worshippers <proskunetes> shall worship <proskuneo> the Father <pater> in <en> spirit <pneuma> and <kai> in truth <aletheia>: for <kai> <gar> the Father <pater> seeketh <zeteo> such <toioutos> to worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT John 4: 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him.

Worship Jesus ; Hebrews 1:6 And <de> again <palin>, when <hotan> he bringeth in <eisago> the firstbegotten <prototokos> into <eis> the world <oikoumene>, he saith <lego>, And <kai> let <proskuneo> all <pas> the angels <aggelos> of God <theos> worship <proskuneo> him <autos>.

NWT; Hebrews 1: 6 But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

.

Janosky:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/Lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4353
Proskyneo definition:
"In New Testament, by kneeling or prostration to do homage whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
a) Of homage shown to men of superior rank.:Matt20:20.
Isce , did the mother of Zebedee's sons pay homage to Jesus ?
Your KJV deceived you that she "worshipped him"

KJV translated proskyneo 60 times as "worship".
That's very wrong and misleading to gullible folks like you.
Phil2:9,10 Jehovah "God exalted him ... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..." or pay homage , prostration to Jesus.
Therefore, to insert "worship" in hebrew 1:6 is criminal , misleading

Lying Pharisee, wey deceive himself.
Jesus quoted Deu6:13 "thou shalt worship Jehovah thy God and only him shalt thou serve..." in Matt 4:10.

Jesus says worship exclusively belongs to his God and Father.

Phil 2:9,10 & Matt4:10 was meant to reset your Pharisee brain.

In Hebrew1:6, proskyneo there means 'obeisance' , that's what Jehovah is saying.

Jesus says you're lying (Matt4:10).

Isce:
Let me put you through a test and see if you are not blind.

Bring scriptures of the Father testimony of the Son especially what he says about worship to his son.

KJV deceive me!!!
It is well.

Isce:
Let me put you through a test and see if you are not blind.

Bring scriptures of the Father testimony of the Son especially what he says about worship to his son.

KJV deceive me!!!
It is well.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/Lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4353
Proskyneo definition:
"In New Testament, by kneeling or prostration to do homage whether in order to express respect or to make supplication"
a) Of homage shown to men of superior rank.:Matt20:20.
Isce , did the mother of Zebedee's sons pay homage to Jesus ?
Your KJV deceived you that she "worshipped him"

KJV translated proskyneo 60 times as "worship".
That's very wrong and misleading to gullible folks like you.
Phil2:9,10 Jehovah "God exalted him ... that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow..." or pay homage , prostration to Jesus.
Therefore, to insert "worship" in hebrew 1:6 is criminal , misleading

Isce:
God Almighty is greater than Jesus as He says, yet Jesus is God as well

Jesus accepts worship all through his time on earth and even on departure


Matthew 2:11
And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2
And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18
While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33
Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25
Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 18:26
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

On his departure~~~~Luke 24:52
And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

Angel worshipped
Hebrews 1:6-8 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

This not a coincidence~ when it got to the turn of an apostle, this is what happened~~

Acts 10:25-26 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.
But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.



He is not Angel
Hebrews 1 explains this and some part of charter 2.

God and Jesus are co-creator
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made

God Almighty is GOD
Jesus Christ is GOD
The Holy Spirit is GOD

GOD ALMIGHTY can be worshipped
JESUS Christ can be worshipped
The Holy Spirit not to be worshipped

God Almighty is Head and Superior
Jesus Christ is the son

You're still confused.
Read Rev:5,12-14,21& other verses in my preceding post.
Greek proskyneo rendered "worship" in Matt2:11, 8:2, etc , the word also mean bow down, prostrate, pay homage, do obeisance etc.
Don't let. KJV deceive you , those men who visited the baby Jesus paid. homage, not actually worship , Jesus says worship is meant for his Father and God. Matt4:10.
Context is key.

Emusan:
You know it's an exclamation yet you're trying so hard to prove Thomas only called Jesus his God and not our God... isn't that stupidity

Besides, exclamation doesn't only mean the lies you people are claiming it to be always.

An exclamation is a sound, word, or sentence that is spoken suddenly, loudly, or emphatically and that expresses excitement, admiration, shock, or anger.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/exclamation

Even though exclamation was used by some versions doesn't erase the fact what Thomas said.

The scripture recorded "and Thomas said to him" which means Thomas directed his statement to Jesus and knew excertlly what he said.

Lastly, before you quote me, the person I replied said "Do you know what it means for someone to call another 'My God'? It means the person (called my God) received worship and prayers"

But after you erroneously jump into what doesn't concern you, you agreed Thomas called Jesus my God and that's only for Thomas and not us since he didn't say our God. You even went further to use "my president" as an example.


Shalom!

Janosky:
These lying Pharisees rejected the words Jesus himself spoke to them in John 14:28, 20:17. 5:37. 6:46 & 10:34-36. Rev 3:5,12-14,21 & Matt16:13-17.
Rather than listen to Jesus, they cherished the junk their pastors dish out to them.

The words Jesus spoke in the scriptures cited above are irrevocable, your buffoonish comments reflect what's in your unreceptive heart.

You're NOT a follower of Jesus, but a lying Pharisee pretending to be Christian.

Emusan, are you or Thomas more holier and perfect than Jesus?

Jesus says he himself has a God and Father he obeys, worships and is accountable to.
Pls swallow your pride and listen to Master Jesus.

herlecks:
Oh.. being not as a person.. Is that so?

Bring your words out of scripture, not those jargons your pastor taught you. If your argument is not based on scripture you speak falsehood.

As a person not in essence. Lies. But Jesus says the Father (Person) is His God (Essence). Ah! Jesus says His Father is supreme in every way, whether in person or in essence. He called the LORD GOD His Father to prove superiority of Person and also calls Him His God to prove superiority of Essence! How come you people claim they are equal in any way? You people would even say to the Lord Jesus to shut up, that He doesn't know himself, that you know Him better. The Lord Jesus knew hypocrites would come to twist God's word to their own destruction, so He often emphasizes "my God my God my Father my Father." What can be easier to understand than this? Who taught you people these nonsense you spew on net? Where is this in the scripture? Who is the Source of all things? Jesus says, "I have life because of my Father," meaning Jesus cannot exist without the Father Who is the Source of life, hypocrites say no, you have life because you are equal to the Father in essence. What is Person? What is essence? God is Spirit. That is the essence. Man has spirit, that makes him equal with God, right? of the same essence? Angels and demons are spirits too. Absolutely deluded folk and his pastor.

Folly. So Jesus is soul and Father Spirit? This is in fact demonic. Who taught you all these nonscriptural jargons? Were you never taught at Sundays school that God is Spirit? You want to add your little human soul to complete Him?

If Jesus has not another God, why does He always say "my God and my Father?" I thought essence was the same? The Father shouldn't be His God if they were equal in essence, right? Lest you don't know what essence is.

Was Jesus making jokes when He said He has a God and a Father? Oh! He was referring to? His other essence half in heaven?

Your standpoint is most erroneous here. Folks like you want to eradicate the Person of the Son, the Word of God who became flesh, and make Him in the most stupid way One with His Father, calling Him the Father. You are most confused or deceived in here, very confused. In truth, if anyone believes not the Son of God, he is none of his! If Jesus is equal to the Father, then you deny the Son of God, for He is Son, not Father. Whosoever denies the Son is condemned already because He believed not on the Son of God. So you all had better get it right in your minds, if you truly worship God or something you fabricate on your bed. Go study scripture afresh with all humility and simplicity of heart, maybe God will show you something besides the nonsense your pastor has fed you with.

These lying Pharisees rejected the words Jesus himself spoke to them in John 14:28, 20:17. 5:37. 6:46 &
Rev 3:5,12-14,21. Matt16:13-17.
Rather than listen to Jesus, they cherished the junk their pastors dish out to them.

Emusan:
If verse 28 is truly an expression of surprise, and exclamation!

Then, did Thomas actually called Jesus my God?

As you're trying to claim since.

In one breath you agreed that Thomas actually called Jesus my God but this only means Jesus is Thomas God alone and not our God in another breath you still want it to be Thomas statement was a surprise or exclamation which in real sense Thomas didn't mean what he said.

Liar, it is NOT my claim, it is a statement of Fact.
In many trinitarian Bible translations ,John 20:28 is an exclamation (!).
This is a solid fact.
https://biblehub.com/john/20-28.htm
Trinity worshippers are never in agreement regarding their satanic doctrine, unlike Jesus disciples, even if they disagree, they will reconcile & stand together on the same side on any issue.
1Cor1:10.




ht

Emusan:
It's no more president of everyone on earth....


Now you finally agreed that Thomas called Jesus "My God" no more it's just an exclamation.

Then if Jesus is Thomas God, is Jesus your God too?



The fact that Thomas called Jesus God in Jesus presence without Jesus rebuking him speaks a volume only a JWs deluded person will think such thing can happen.

You getting it wrong.
" My President" is an expression which does not cover everyone.

"My teacher is not the same as "our teacher" likewise "my God" is not " our God".
If you like argue till kingdom come.
Did Jesus ever say he is our God?

** Thomas say Jesus na him Oga,OK. Jesus say him get Oga for heaven and earth wey be him (Jesus) Oga and Thomas Oga.
John 20:17.
The God of Jesus & Thomas na their Oga for heaven.
Rev 3:5,12-14,21.

** Jesus say No human being done see him Oga for eye to eye. John 5:37. 6:46.
Jesus say you Emusan na unbeliever, lying Pharisee who listen & believe the junk from the stable of pastorpreneurs.
John 5:38-42.

* Why should Jesus rebuke Thomas , when it was obvious Thomas still doubted Jesus resurrection?
"Stop doubting and believe" John 20:24-28.

It's true that verse 28 is an expression of surprise, (an exclamation! ) that indeed, Jesus had resurrected.
v29 " Jesus said : because you have seen me you have believed, blessed are those who never saw Jesus resurrected but believe in his resurrection.
v30,31: these events occurred so you may believe Jesus is the Christ the son of God".
Shikena !!

Isce:
In my answer to this:
Lets see creator
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

This means Christ created you and I. God almighty didn't do it without Him


What you called Jesus, that is what He is to you, but for me, He is my God.

Your statement above you just confirmed Jesus your "God" is NOT Almighty God .
Trinity mumu doctrine dey thief your sense.

Your Bible says Jesus worships his God and Father.( John 20:17) to whom Jesus owes his name ( Ephesians 3:14,15. 1:3 .) & granted life to Jesus . John 5:26.
Phil 2:9 His God Jehovah "exalted Jesus and gave Jesus a name.." and authority in Phil2:10.

Receive sense.

Emusan:
If I say your intellectual is very low some people will think I'm abusing you.

Do you mean Thomas has two God?


Is there anything like World PRESIDENT?



We cling to Thomas's word because he said it in front of Jesus and as a Jew who knew, addressing someone other than God as God is blasphemy.

The problem you're having as well as other anti-trinitarian is that you failed to learn what you're arguing about.

Trinitarian didn't argue against John 20:17 but they know when the scripture talks about pre-human Jesus and when Jesus became part of His own creation.

But it's you lying JWs that is twisting the word of Thomas and make Thomas to have two Gods.

** Stop being foolish, to call Buhari "my President", you're talking about his authority relative to Nigeria & Nigerians.
Likewise , for Thomas to call Jesus "my God" is relative to Thomas's view of his relationship with Jesus.

Which other disciple called Jesus " my God" ? None !

Lying Pharisees everywhere.
John 20:17 "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, my God and your God" that statement has no twist and turns,except you're bereft of sense and deceive yourself.

In heaven and earth, the Father and God of Jesus is also the Father and God of his disciples .
Rev 3:5,12-14,21. Rom15:5,6.

Emusan:
If the older existing manuscripts rendered it "Church of the Lord" and your organization knows that the older manuscripts rendered it such way, why then did your own organization version still read CONGREGATION OF GOD?"

"Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers, to shepherd the congregation of God, which he purchased with the blood of his own Son." NWT








The question is, did the word SON appear in the original manuscript of Acts 20:28?

Why are you so idiotic ?


Galatians 1:3,4 says you're bereft of sense...


The phrase "your own blood"
OR
"his own blood (Acts20:28) " ,what does it actually mean?
** Answer: His offspring, his son.
"Your own blood" refers to your son and other blood relatives, not to you.

***## Idiotic Pharisee wey lost him sense, Jesus the son of God is God's own blood, so to speak.

** "God loved us and sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
1john4:10.

*** " We have seen and testify that the Father sent his son to be the saviour of the world" 1John4:14

Emusan lying Pharisee, say na the Father get blood for body and sent himself.

Lol.

Emusan:
Now he can oblige but can jump around peddling lie and call other fraud for what your organization also did.

Hypocrisy and JWs are 5&6

These are his word and compare it with the answers he had given:



Also;



His point was centered on the original manuscript not the reason why other translations inserted the word GOD and he went further to this a FRAUDULENT ATTITUDE.

Now this is the original Hebrew interliner of Acts 20:28:
"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which you to the Spirit has set overseers, to shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with the own"

Suddenly, he change his argument from how MSS should be translated literally to the reason why it should be translated that way.

Isn't this dishonesty and hypocrisy?

Obviously, what he accused other people for as fraud also applicable to his own translation...yet he couldn't hide his face in shame.

You are a fool show casing your ignorance here.
KJV is a Textus Receptus Bible based on 16th century manuscript added with maggi, dadawa and many spurious stuffs not found in older existing manuscripts which TR copied from.
Older existing manuscripts rendered Acts 20:28 "church of the lord " (Eph5:25 ,Galatians1:3,4 vindicates CEV,GNT, NWT, )keep shouting and ranting, every scriptures and Jesus himself says he is the son sent by God his Father to sacrifice his blood to redeem mankind.
Acts 20:28 has no hebrew interlinear. It's a Greek text.
The verdict of the horse's mouth - Jesus stated truth keeps speaking against your satanic fallacies

Isce:
...,

This is Russell's actual tomb not that pyramid crap you posted on this thread.
If that pyramid crap convinced you he is a cultist, your gable roof pyramid proves you are the
Chief Lord of cultist.
So called Christian, na wetin pyramid dey do for your gable roof?

Isce:
You are only repeating,coping your ~~~~
You are not original. Gable roof is not pyramid

Isce the bigoted liar and hypocrite. Carry your junk komot from here.
You can only deceive gullible folks like your self fed with junks from the stable of pastorpreneurs.

Isce:
News > UK > Home News
War of words breaks out among Jehovah's Witnesses
Attack on 'mentally diseased' worshippers who leave church provokes outcry

You are a disease to this thread as you cult thinks it.

You dey post story wey headlines dey North pole and the news story dey South pole.
You no even understand wetin you dey post.
Naso you get sense reach.


Trinity & Cross worshipper sounding like a cracked Compact Disk & deceiving himself.

The cross & pyramid symbols dey inside your house ,your church buildings.
Your bigotry and hypocrisy dey fry beans with your sense.

Emusan:
In defence of 1 Timothy 3:16 your point wasn't the list of others that translated it like KJV but the word GOD was dubiously inserted because it's not in the original manuscript.

Here you come, listing other versions having the same interpretation with the nwt, hypocrite!

I can give you different reasons why the word GOD was inserted in 1 Tim 3:16 and other translations other than KJV that have the word GOD in them.

But see how you keep exposing your fraudulent hypocritical attitude to the world.

Tell us why the word "SON" in Acts 20:28 which was not in the original manuscript was dubiously inserted by your organization?

* Jesus the son of his Father told you God sent him to offer his blood as a ransom to save mankind ,John 3:16.
Your fictitious claims gives you away as unbeliever , a pharisee who disdain Jesus words in John 3:16. in other words, you're saying Jesus lied in John 3:16.

*** Your fellow Trinitarians (GNT, NET Bible, CEV) studied the Bible thoroughly and found out that the KJV version of Acts20:28 is against Jesus revealed truth at John 3:16 which supports 1John 1:7. 4:9-11,14.
God NEVER offered his blood to sit at the right hand of himself.
Hebrew9 :9,12.
Or you mean that God was crying out to himself: "My God, my God why have you forsaken me ?" Matt27:46.
Mr lying Pharisee, scriptures confirms scriptures.- John 3:16, 1st John4:9-11& 1:7 supported each other.
No wonder that pagan Roman army officer & his fellow soldiers get sense pass you wey dey form Christian! Matt 27:54.
Lol.

[quote author=Emusan post=78251598

In defence of 1 Timothy 3:16 your point wasn't the list of others that translated it like KJV but the word GOD was dubiously inserted because it's not in the original manuscript.

Here you come, listing other versions having the same interpretation with the nwt, hypocrite!

I can give you different reasons why the word GOD was inserted in 1 Tim 3:16 and other translations other than KJV that have the word GOD in them.

But see how you keep exposing your fraudulent hypocritical attitude to the world.

Tell us why the word "SON" in Acts 20:28 which was not in the original manuscript was dubiously inserted by your organization?[/quote]Your fellow Trinitarians (GNT, NET Bible, CEV) studied the Bible thoroughly and found out that the KJV version of Acts20:28 is against Jesus revealed truth at John 3:16 which supports 1John 1:7. 4:9-11,14.
God NEVER offered his blood to sit at the right hand of himself.
Hebrew9 :9,12.
Or you mean that God was crying out to himself: "My God, my God why have you forsaken yourself?" Matt27:46.
Mr lying Pharisee, scriptures confirms scriptures.
No wonder that pagan Roman army officer & his fellow soldiers get sense pass you wey dey form Christian! Matt 27:54.
Lol.

Emusan:
Meanwhile, my question still remains.

Why did NWT insert the word SON in Acts 20:28 when it didn't appear in original manuscript?

After all, your brother is accusing someone of inserting the word GOD in 1 Tim 3:16 to propagate the doctrine of Trinity.

* Contemporary Engl version (CEV
"..it is the flock he bought with the blood of his own son" Acts 20:28

** NET Bible
" The church of God that he obtained with the blood of his own son" Acts 20:28

*** Good News Transl'n (GNT)
" Which he made his own through the blood of his son"

1 John 1:7. 4:10,14 proves why Acts20:28 must be rendered as it is in NWT.


" The blood of Jesus,his son,purifies us from sin" 1 John 1:7
** The Father has sent his son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins" .
1 John 4:10,14.

** It is noteworthy that GNT , CEV and NET Bible were published by Trinitarian translators but refused and rejected the trinitarian idea implied by KJV.

If you claim God bought his flock with his own blood you're saying that Jesus lied in John 3:16 which is confirmed by 1john1:7& 1John4:10,11

Shepherd00:
I'm ashamed on your behalf. You follow a cultist yet you carry your bag about town calling yourself Jehovah's Witnesses.

Did Jehovah ever called anyone His witness?

Lol.
You should be ashamed of yourself for lying Pharisee antics & bigotry.

***Jesus witnessed for Jehovah his Father and God (Rev 3:5,12,14. Acts 3:13.).
Every true servant of the Most High God is a Jehovah's witness.
Isaiah 43:10-12. Heb11:1-39. 12:1. Psalms 83:18 ( ASV)

Shepherd00:
Based on the symbols used by Charles, I say he was a Cultist, but you say that him using those symbols doesn't make him a mason because long before the Masons used the symbols, others have used them.

I say show me who did, instead of just posting a link you are here telling me to prove to you that Charles Tass Russel was not a Freemason member.

Lying Pharisees wey no know say the cross symbols inside his church and his house existed long ago even before Jesus came on earth.
Yet your Church buildings were built with occultist designs and shapes , even your house roofing is a pyramid .
You are even more occultist than you care to believe.
You are a bigot indeed.

cc: Isce , read this and receive sense

Isce:
Jesus is not Michael the Archangel. The Bible nowhere identifies Jesus as Michael (or any other angel for that matter). Hebrews 1:5-8 draws a clear distinction between Jesus and the angels, “For to which of the angels did God ever say, ‘You are my Son; today I have become your Father’? Or again, ‘I will be His Father, and He will be my Son’? And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says, ‘Let all God's angels worship Him.’ In speaking of the angels He says, ‘He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.’ But about the Son He says, ‘Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.’” The hierarchy of heaven beings is made clear in this passage—angels worship Jesus who, as God, is alone worthy of worship. No angel is ever worshipped in Scripture; therefore, Jesus (worthy of worship) cannot be Michael or any other angel (not worthy of worship). The angels are called sons of God (Genesis 6:2-4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7), but Jesus is THE Son of God (Hebrews 1:8; Matthew 4:3-6).

Michael the Archangel is perhaps the highest of all the angels. Michael is the only angel in the Bible who is designated “the Archangel” (Jude verse 9). Michael the Archangel, though, is only an angel. He is not God. The clear distinction in the power and authority of Michael and Jesus can be seen in comparing Matthew 4:10 where Jesus rebukes Satan, and Jude verse 9, where Michael the Archangel “dared not bring a judgment of blasphemy” against Satan and calls on the Lord to rebuke him. Jesus is God incarnate (John 1:1,14). Michael the Archangel is a powerful angel, but still only an angel.

Jude1:9 is a quote of Zech 3:2 " Jehovah rebuke you" is the actual statement there. " Lord" is a title, not the name of the "the only true God &Father of Jesus Christ.
Archangel Michael dared not bring abusive condemnation against Satan" Jude1:9.
" away from me Satan" (Matt4:10) is NOT an abusive condemnation.

** To which of the angels did God ever say "You are my Son" today I have become your Father "
Heb1:5 , Is that meaning that angels are not sons of God? No.
Job. 1:6: the sons of God came to present themselves before Jehovah "
Jehovah elevated Jesus above angels (Heb1:4-6,13 Jesus inherited a name more excellent than that of angels".
Heb1:9 "there God,your God has anointed you with oil of gladness above your companions (angels)"

*** Heb1:4-9,13 says Jehovah elevated Jesus above angels .
Who are Jesus companions in the spiritual realm where he was elevated ? Angels of course!
Jesus is the Archangel leading other angels in battle 2Thes1:7.
1Thes4:16. Matt 24:30,31.

Isce:
Until they give you his "No" show you his seat, or better still display hia activities there, thats when it will make sense. Forget it my dear and stick to your believe instead of coming here to argue. That's where your heart lies.

You have made search to keep you blind and it hurt you to see other not convinced, but sorry we are only comparing facts. The only facts you have is wiki and "Lies Lies Lies",
God bless you

Freemason fraternity everywhere - In Europe and America, they publicly responded to inquiries from different people in different continents, about Russell's membership, the Freemasons said the man is not their member neither is he affiliated to them in any way.
Proof - Isce & Shepherd00 are habitually chronic LIARs.

brocab:
Do you see the name Jehovah ''I think not-but ''Yahweh ''Lord'' is written in the scriptures!
This is a good reason why we don't believe in the Watchtower doctrines-you would prefer to believe Sir Isaac Newton, he didn't change anything-no one had taken him seriously, as we can see, the bible is still written just as God had written it Himself-you would prefer to believe a fraudster then believe the Word of God.
This is why we have so many disagreements, you can't accept the bible as it is, but you would rather look into someone else's backyard to find some tool to destroy the truth that God had written in His Word, 'if you knew God-you wouldn't try so hard to destroy Him-but you don't know God-this is why you find it so easy to be like Sir Isaac Newton, he tried to destroy God's Word 'not knowing the power that lay's within the Scriptures ....

** Whether you like it or not, everyone knows that Jehovah or Yahweh is transliteration of God's name ,written YHWH in Hebrew.
Lord is NOT YHWH anywhere.
But Jehovah & Yahweh is YHWH.

https://biblehub.com/1_timothy/3-16.htm

** LEXICON
" By common confession the mystery of godliness is great.
He appeared in the flesh......"

Here in the most ancient authorities, the word "God" does NOT occur.
We must, then,literally translate the Greek of the most famous and TRUSTWORTHY MSS as follows:
' He was manifested in the flesh'

Brocab lying Pharisee, Sir Isaac Newton spoke the truth.
You & your Trinity worshippers support your scam with the FALSIFIED version of 1 Tim 3:16.

Emusan:
Liars everywhere
If Jesus actually pronounced the name of God, how come both your organization and other people agreed that the pronunciation of the real name of God has been lost centuries before Jesus came?

Wouldn't the Pharisees and sadducees use that avenue to accuse Jesus the more, for pronouncing God's name when everyone is forbidden for doing so?

Apart from allege claim where Jesus quoted the old testament by JWs, why Jesus didn't personally address God as Jehovah any where in the scripture?

Isn't it better if Jesus himself addressed God as Jehovah rather than addressing Him through a quote?

Lastly, you people always leave the key point in Jesus statement.

The verse says: "I have manifested thy name UNTO THE MEN which thou gavest me..."

But JWs have to twist it to mean "I have manifested thy name THROUGH THE QUOTE OF THE OLD WRITINGS..."

Your statement" the verse says I have manifested thy name..."
and your false claims,
"But JWs have to twist it to mean " I have manifested thy name. ..."
That's the proof that some thing is wrong with your brain.
Lie lie full inside.


Lying Pharisee, Jesus knew the actual pronunciation of his Father's name & revealed it (Jesus said" I have made your name known to them" John 17:26, AMP) even if the actual pronunciation of God's name was lost centuries before he came.
*** Is Jesus a slave of Pharisees & Sadducees? Why should he obey a man made satanic law which forbids the pronunciation of God's name?
** John 17:26 is proof Jesus used & pronounced his Father's name.
Not everything Jesus did is written in the Bible ( John 20:30) but he himself confirmed he made known his Father's name (John 17:26).