₦airaland Forum

rastamouse: Sorry JeSoul. I understand perfectly...thanks

No problem my brother, Logicboy says its okay so pls carry on.

logicboy: It is Okay. Rastamouse is just surprised that I left christianity after 22 years. He is afraid that some will follow my example and leave christianity

Thanks for being a good sport dude. I'd be very interested to see what your definition & understanding is of a "Christian". I tried unsuccessfully to pull this out of you a few threads ago.

Sorry Rastamouse but topics like these are generally not allowed.

But I see Logicboy is enjoying the popularity, so I'll let him make the call on this one. Logicboy, you want the thread left?

ProPastorChris: @ all

pray or stay away please, this topic is not for arguments or abuses.

if you do not feel like praying please buzz off!

thank you moderator for job well done.

No problem. Pls carry on with your thread in peace. Cheers.

Reminder to all: Trolls will not be tolerated. If anyone has any questions pls refer to the rules of the forum:

https://www.nairaland.com/1026/nairaland-forum-rules-regulations

Nairaland is first of all a privately owned website, then a discussion forum.  We strive to ensure that anything published on our Nairaland.com domain is up to a certain standard, and a number of times we have to use our discretion.  Regardless of whether you agree with administrative decisions or not, we require you be fully cooperative with us at all times, else refrain from posting or sending messages on the site.  Disputes or disagreements with the administrator(s) must be handled privately.

Logic Mind: there you go.
i like making it easy for you.
oya, hit the button.
i'm tired of hypocrites.

Thanks! And done. Refer to the rules to see how you've been banned for. Its clearly listed there. Cheers.

logicboy: Come on. Jesoul, everyone was having a good laugh!

Or are Joagbaje and Propastorchris now untouchables?



Oh and to be on topic and avoiding getting banned, I LOVE PASTOR CHRIS (not)

[quote author=logicboy]Everyone except the owner of the thread as u can see. I stay out of it as long as the original poster is fine with it and clearly he wasnt. Thanks.

^Highly appreciated! Thanks sir.

logicboy, thanks as well.

^Might I suggest the beautiful city of San Francisco?

San Francisco has long had an LGBT-friendly history. It was home to the first lesbian-rights organization in the United States, Daughters of Bilitis; the first openly gay person to run for public office in the U.S., José Sarria; the first openly gay man to be elected to public office in the U.S., Harvey Milk; the first openly lesbian judge appointed in the U.S., Mary C. Morgan; and the first transgender police commissioner, Theresa Sparks. The city's large gay population has created and sustained a politically and culturally active community over many decades, developing a powerful presence in San Francisco's civic life. One of the most popular destinations for gay tourists internationally, the city hosts San Francisco Pride, one of the largest and oldest pride parades.

Public nudity is legal so long as the individual is not sexually aroused and places a towel on their seat.[102]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco

Happy touring Muskeeto

^lol. Nor vex. Like I said, open a new thread and you two can go at it, I won't interfere. Just leave other posters threads in peace ehn. Tank u.

musKeeto: Information Techonology (B.Tech).. that info's not too personal, is it?

Could've guessed. The IT boom seems to have India as its captain. lol.

It's simple. I know of parents of parents who trained their children to be non-smokers and non-alcoholics. You don't need me to tell you how that turned out..
I think the role of parents is to provide the tools necessary for children to grow up in an environment such that they are able to accommodate not necessarily accept divergent views. I think the family as a unit(not society) legislates morals to a degree as society is made up of families...

Isn't that the same thing? lol. The father may also be the district judge, his views won't change simply because he put on a black robe. See that Emofine's answer on church and state. Seperation of the two is tricky because the state is made up by members of the society - and so is the church. And as she put it, its whomever is weiling more power that wins the battle for the law books. Just like it would've been illegal for you not to be a christian once lol... aren't you glad you live in the 21st century?

I repeat for the final time. Stay on the topic or else.

@subsequent posters, please respect the topic.

booqee: Thank you logic boy. Weldone! You've successfully derailed my thread! Mtcheww......! Rubbish.....

David & Logicboy, please fellas, I'm going to have to ask you both to open another thread and leave Bogee's thread to continue. Thanks. And David, you know you can do better than the language here...

logicboy: Kai!
Jesoul and Muskeeto! Una don finish me!

Lol. I'm guessing you're a very emotional guy. Gets fired up but also able to take a good joke.

musKeeto: lol. doing my degree...
hmm the place to be? well, na her country...

You learn a lot about the effects of religion, you admire culture sometimes up to the point of envy, and then plenty girls to confuse you

It's a great place although the culture shock at first almost made me mad

Quite agree. There's nothing like travelling to a different part of the world to really expand your horizons...I wouldn't know about the girls part tho . I'm tempted to ask what you're studying...but pls don't disclose any personal info you don't wanna.

musKeeto: Any examples?

Like what we're discussing here. Society makes laws that may or may not affect your ability to practice religious beliefs. Whether or not gays get the marriage tag is a decision that affects those who care, those who have families and want to raise their children a certain way. We can even say society legislates morals to a degree .... or else an action like necrophilia would not be a crime in cerain places.

musKeeto: I grew up in Nigeria, currently living in India. In Nigeria, gay rights is not really an issue, gays don't even have 'lefts' yet

Abi oh. lol. Africa in general has very little tolerance for behavior they deem deviant as a culture. We hold on to tradition much more fiercely. Its good in many regards and not so good in others. I'm glad they won't be legalizing gay marriage, but it is horrendous gays have to fear for their lives in public.

In India, homosexuality was made legal some years back, there have gay pride parades in Delhi, but in Chennai (where I stay), most gays remain closeted..
So I'm really not bothered about it. But I believe everyone should mind their businesses.. One's sexual preferences has no effect on me whatsoever, when compared to the actions of a rapist or those currently looting the national coffers

Hmm...I'm quite suprised, didn't particularly know that about India as a whole. I guess it being such a huge huge country, you're bound to see some variation from region to region - more acceptance in the capital cities and less as you go 'inside'. I'm with you though, if everyone minded their business this would be a whole lot easier. But its hard to 'mind your business' when laws are being made that will affect your 'business'. You sef, wetin you dey find for india? lol. A close indian friend of mine has been telling me its the place to be. I keep asking her what she's doing here then lol.

[quote author=emöfine2]Lol I never saw your post earlier on, ok.

Yes I agree that gays are a relative minority in most societies.

To be honest I’m not sure of the percentages but I am aware that reserved and/or hostile attitudes towards gays outside religious institutions even in secular societies still persist but at least there are laws in those secular societies that protect gays as a minority and don’t criminalize them.[/quote]Thanks for the reply. Very well put.

Well I believe the views of minorities (depending on their views i.e extremists excluded) should not be marginalized and their rights too should be upheld; the majority doesn't even have to “like” the views of the minority, just don’t disrespect and discriminate against them. But that’s not to say that the views of a minority should be “imposed” on the majority unless there is no credible means of marginalization and yes if the minority is being threatened. Minorities need to be heard and not silenced and sometimes even protected. I maintain that our differences should be equally respected. Besides the majority is not always right or should remain unchallenged.

Honestly, you should be in leadership & government. This is about as well as I've heard it put and I think is fair to both sides of the issue. One issue though would be how would you determine what is "an extremist" view?

It’s interesting because I don’t regard any sexuality or religion as innate attributes so this is definitely one thing I believe society should consider before discriminating on the grounds of “unnatural” behaviour.

Okay, that's fair.

Such religious people should also remember that they were not born as an adherent to a particular faith (maybe under a religious household but religion is not hereditary) so by that same token religion is just as “unnatural” yet such individuals claim their religion is integral to their being.
Gays won’t be marginalized just because they are a minority (just like left handed people) or concealed for fear of treading on the sensibilities of particular groups, religious or not.
Although recognizing the rights of the religious populace (such populace will be free to practice their religion) the influence of religion in the politics of the state will pale - so I suppose you can say it will be a secular society.

Thanks for this. Makes sense andd I think in the world we have today is a very reasonable position. I would lean right a bit because of my religious beliefs. Cheers!

^thanks Muskeeto, exactly! lol

logicboy: Huh? I wasnt saying that we should have granchildren together! Jesus Christ! Sorry, I am not like those perverts that toast you here on NL.

Reread my comment- I was saying by the time our generation have granchildren, gay rights would be accpeted

Geez! I think I need to adjust my writing style ... that is not what I meant either lol. I simply meant "I rebuke you" saying gay marriage would be accepted that widely in just a few generations. No insult intended LB. Lol.

And oh btw, generous estimates of the gay population has it at about 3-5%... doesn't seem like a takeover is imminent.

Duplicate thread. Pls continue here: https://www.nairaland.com/931356/isnt-it-funny

Muskeeto whut up? no comment on gay rights?

logicboy: There is no debate between me and you. We already agree on most parts on this issue. My only issue is the small difference between civil unions and full marriage.

As for gay people being a minority, it is irrelevant. Gay marriage will be accepted fully in Europe before we both have grandchildren that can vote.

As for evolution being a theory, a scientific theory has a more precise defintion compared to the general defintion of theory.

Sorry for the Hitler comparision

It pains me that I can't exactly bash you since we both agree to a certain degree. I'm off to troll strong-headed christians, they always like a good bashing before they grudgingly accept they're wrong!

Ehen I know now, you're looking for fight . David is around today. He never fails to give a good one lol.

As for this part:

As for gay people being a minority, it is irrelevant. Gay marriage will be accepted fully in Europe before we both have grandchildren that can vote.

Lol. I rebuke you.

bluecole2: Emotional, sad for the poor families. Regardless of what the offences might be, people deserve to have a fair trial, be it in Nigeria, China or elsewhere around the world.

It's a shame some of the members of this forum don't understand what's is like to be in trouble thousands of miles away from home. Being in a better jail doesn't change anything, knowing you don't have a voice.

Human right of every nationality has to be up-helpd and that includes getting a fair trial. And it's the least our government should do for it's citizens. If we keep pointing fingers, especially in the wrong direction, our government will continue to be inconpetent and we the citizen will be the one to suffer the consequences of their inaction to fight for the rights of it's citizens.

Think brothers and sister, don't be in a rush to judge. Try to see things from a different view.

You do make a good point. And at the same time it is the overwhelming responsibility of any individual heading to foreign soil, to examine his decision soberly. How many people are flocking to Afghanistan? Pakistan? it is for a reason. Despite the fact being known worldwide about the brutality of the chinese justice system, nigerians are still going there. Honestly, how can one feel sad for a mn who got burned for putting his hand on the stove when it is common knowledge stoves burns hands?

Many Nigerians head abroad, thinking the same quick, fast, short-cut, bribe-your-way-out lifestyle that prevails in naija will be tolerated in other countries only to find out otherwise.

logicboy: 1) Yes, a minority

Good.

2) I'm guessing a very high percentage if not all gays that would support gay marriage. Who wants to be alone?

You may have mis-read my question. I meant percentage of non-gays that support gay marriage. Or else America would be a gay paradise which is obviously isn't.

3) Blacks are also minorities. They "imposed" their views to get equal rights too. MLK (Luther King) had a black agenda which majority of whites did not agree with for years

Honestly, I almost put "pls don't refer to the civil rights as an example" when I posted that question. lol. Its not the same issue - especially as long as I've agreed I have no desire to deny them equal rights as married couples.

4) Ideal society;

a) Gay marriage allowed and given same status with marriage. Gay couples having the same right to adopt.

Ai! the second part of your answer...to be discussed later.

b)Religion should not interfere with politics. Separation of church and state. People can worship how they like without oppressing other people. Evolution in schools while creationism thrown out.

See Emofine's last post on the issue of church & state seperation. I take some issue with your stance to teach evolution (as a fact despite its many flaws). It should be presented as a scientific theory not fact. I do think creationism should be taught - but not as a scientific course. Stripping schools of religious-flavored ideas is not the way forward.

---

logicboy: You know what I mean. I am not forcing you. You just seem like someone that is enlightened about this issue.

Anyway, this is what gave Hitler rise to power. There were people in government who didnt like him but left him to rise in power as long as they lost nothing. There is no harm in having a simple discussion withsome of your close friends on this issue when they break out in homophobic tirades.

Please, I am not forcing you. I accept your position on this issue but only as a compromise

I know you are not 'forcing' me...I was just kidding around. I pay attention to politics & interact with all kinds of people so it helps inform (not necessarily shape) my 'religious beliefs'. Someone who's lived in a village in Ogun state, it'd be hard to expect them to take all these other aspects into consideration. Make sense? And trust me, there are way more ppl who read on NL than comment so threads like this one you made helps, so you too, keep it up .
And dude, you're not comparing fighting for gay marriage even close to the league of Hitlers murderous reign? stop it oh lol.

logicboy: Thank you for your input. However, I wold like you to take your belief on gay marriage just one little step further; move from civil unions to full marriage please.

but why? why don't you instead ask the other side to come closer to my belief? I'm for live & let live - and don't force me to believe what you believe - which is exactly what gay marriage proponents are demanding of the general populace.

Also, please try to educate some of our christian brothers on this issue. Please.

Ah! wetin concern agbero with overload? Haven't you seen how many issues christians disagree amongst themselves? tithes, speaking in tongues, sabbath, women, etc etc. abeg oh, me I prefer to mind my business and stay out of the firing range for sanity sake.

[quote author=emöfine2]Kinda reminds me of a debate I once heard about heterosexual “unbelievers” being given grace to marry in church but none dispensed for a particular homosexual couple who were “believers” attending that actual church for years.[/quote]Very good point and is part of the 'hypocrisy' of some churches. Homosexuality is unfortunately viewed as a 'pedestal' sin. It is raised far and high above other infractions. A man can divorce and re-marry 5 times without reprimand, but a gay dude will be kept at pole's length. The double standard certainly doesn't help.

But in the same manner just as the secular populace resent the church and other religious institution interfering with the laws and politics of the state I can understand the religious populace not wanting the secular populace interfering with the laws of their beliefs.
But seeing that none is independent of each other (the happenings that occur in both the state and the church directly affects each other) the body that carries the most clout will eventually impact on the laws governing the other.
I appreciate your honest response, thanks.

This is an exquisite paragraph and I agree completely. The Roman Catholic Church in particular is a very very very powerful entity in politics all around the world. And like you said, each side is vying for power - that is natural. There's no true line that seperates church & state.

You guys have been asking all the questions, my turn.

Emofine & Logicboy,
1- Do you agree that gays are a relative minority in most soceities? (pls discount their capital of San Franscisco ).
2- What percentage of non-gays fully support the gay agenda? (lets use the western world for this part)
2- What do you think about minority views being imposed on a majority that may not agree?
3- What would your "ideal" soceity look like in regards to a)gay rights and b)religion

Cheers.

logicboy: Well, you are more civil than some christains on this issue.

Lol. I'll take that

However, a civil union is not the same as marriage as civil unions have less rights in America. Civil unions do not have access to federal benefits since states that offer civil unions can only give state rights.

And with good reason. If Massachusetts wants to recognize gay couples - great for us. But we cannot force Northcarolinans to accept what we have deemed "marriage". Let every society decide for themselves, not a minority imposing their choices on others. Revert back to what I said about supporting individual states making their own laws.

Furthermore, let's breakdown yourstatement;

I am not for re-defining the term marriage, it should remain "a man and a woman". This gives them the rights they clamour for, while maintaining the integrity of a institution that has been in place since the stone-age.


a) Marriage has not always been between a man and a woman, even in the bible. Solomon and other people had more than one wives. They were polygamous

Oh common now Logic, you're being nitpicky. lol. Those kinds of looseness was reserved for powerful kings - one out of 1 million. The average dude (not necessarily jews) had just a dudette. Plus don't get me started on some aspects of culture of the ancient jews, I'm not their biggest fan.

b) Who has the right to define the term? Is it you? Your God? Your government? The people? Everyone? Your definition might not be the proper definition

The people living within the society have right to define for themselves - and so we see different states & even countries making up their own different rules. I'm fine with that. My personal opinion was what I gave in the second paragraph.

c)Marriage has had no integrity since the stoneage;
-there were religions before the bible or judaism which would have their own marriage rites
-there was polygamy in the bible by the wisest man in the bible (no integrity there)
-there was incest marriage in the bible (Abraham and Sarah were step brother and sister)
-there have always been gay couples since the stoneage
-christians have higher divorce rates in America

You're touching on several different issues here that will lead us elsewhere. Divorce rates have nothing in particular to do with the issue. If we were to go there I'd simply tell you a good majority of people who label themselves 'christian' are really not when looked at from the biblical definition. Hence we can easily adjust those rates to truly represent the actual figures...but I digress.

Yes gay couples have always been around - my point was two-fold. One about the occurence of it being much much greater and two, (and I guess this has been fueled by) societal 'acceptance' of it. Again on jewish culture - not the best standard for the rest of us to emulate.

However, I am happy with your stance since you recognise the rights of gay people. Kudos

One of the people who had an incredible influence on me and was just an all around wonderful human being was a white gay dude, a co-worker of mine years ago. It helped me go beyond defining people by mere labels.

[quote author=emöfine2]Jesoul, just curious...do you believe marriage is the sole property of the church or any other religious institution?[/quote]Of just the church? Why would I believe that? Non-religious people have been getting married for centuries and centuries long before an organized 'church' ever existed. I do not think they should be subject to the 'leanings' or 'beliefs' of any church. As a society, historically, it has always been between a man and a woman - that is what I primarily mean. Even areligious people have always found gay unions to be 'unnatural' (excuse my use of the term). It is with the changing of times (and mostly in 'western' societies) that it has become more & more acceptable mainstream. Cheers.

logicboy: You are right on this issue. However, what do you personally think about gay marriage?

I support the rights of individual states to decide for themselves. As long as the people vote and decide - not over-reaching Justices in courts making their own personal amendments to the constitution. In my own state of Mass, we were the first to legalize gay marriage in the country.

What do I personally think? I support Civil Unions - so they can enjoy the same societal 'rights' and 'priviledges' married heterosexual couples enjoy - insurance, healthcare etc etc. I am not for re-defining the term marriage, it should remain "a man and a woman". This gives them the rights they clamour for, while maintaining the integrity of a institution that has been in place since the stone-age.

@topic,

funny enough I watched some detailed coverage on this story on CNN just this past saturday morning - including an interview with that pastor from NC.

logicboy: What do you think about this shift in christianity and black people towards gay rights?

Let me first guarantee you, in spite of what the media might say, there is no "shift" towards "accepting" "gay rights" by the black church. That is merely wishful propaganda from the media that is not representative of the entire AA populace. See a quote from your own link:

Most black churches consider homosexuality a sin, and have resisted any attempt to reinterpret biblical passages condemning it. But some pastors are finding ways to skirt — for now — the theological issue, and support equal treatment of gays and lesbians as a legislative concern.

While attitudes toward homosexuality have softened among many religious groups, black Protestants remain among the most resistant. A recent analysis by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life shows that just 33 percent of African-American churchgoers support same-sex marriage, a position that has barely moved since 2001 when 30 percent supported it. Support for gay marriage among white evangelical Christians has remained flat as well.

30 to 33 percent in 11 years is barely a "shift" wouldn't you say? and it probably falls within the %error of the polls (most polls have at least a 3-4% error). But, the key question in that quote above is why are a few pastors against the legislation?
#1- They choose to see it as a political rather than religious issue.
#2- and most most importantly - they see it as a republican bill.

Everyone knows rocks will bleed blue before blacks who are I think ~90% democrat will lend their support to a republican legislation - furthermore a republican legislation initiated by Tea Party activists! AA's vote democrat - overwhelmingly and even when there's a bill they might support, they won't simply becos its a republican one. The pastor interviewed on CNN pretty much said as much and I paraphrase "we should be very careful about giving our support to groups who have historically been against us regardless of the bill". That said, from your link, looks like NC AA's will be siding with the repubs on this one:

In North Carolina, where blacks make up 21 percent of the population (nearly double the 12 percent nationwide), the amendment has solid support among many African-Americans.

Modified.

Naija na wa. Hospitals, doctors, nurses are one sector of the govt that should never be allowed to strike. I can only imagine the unold hardship the people are going through and the lives that are being lost. This is too sad.

Luka316: Pls I need help.

They started as a small pimples on my chest it keep on growing and it etching me time to time but no pains except if I press it with my fingers although the pain is not much

Initially it was one but another one which is smaller than the first one is coming up too and they both of them keep on growing only God know how big they could b4 they stop growing.

Iam scared pls I need help I know nairaland is my solution ground pls doctors in the help me

Thx

Please please and please again, do NOT self-medicate. Especially with 'medication' that you bought/got over the internet. GO AND SEE A DOCTOR to confirm what is really the problem. If there is no dermatologist around, see a general physician to give you instructions on what/who to see next. Again please do not try to treat yourself with medication you got over the internet.

Wonderful topic for all of us to watch & learn. May God guide all the pregnancies thru to delivery. Amen!

buzugee: i beg to differ with pastor Chris

EXODUS 4 VS 11 And the LORD said unto him, Who hath made man's mouth? or who maketh the dumb, or deaf, or the seeing, or the blind? have not I the LORD?

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 59[b] Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.[/b]

Buzugee, thanks for your scriptures on that other thread, I did see them.
There's something very direct and unapologetic about the way you use and post scripture verses - though I don't always agree with you but I still find it quite fascinating .