₦airaland Forum

roymary: Logic has failed the world. Its not one-dimensional. Lets talk about homosexuality---America which you admire so much acknowledge the act and sees nothing wrong in it. Logically, is homosexuality appropriate? Stop the false alarm and face whats vital- the problem with Nigeria is bad governance! Put the basic amenities in place in Ikeja and you'll have a city more beautiful than you have in Downtown Chicago. This has little or nothing to do with religion. I do not need God to tell me to train and feed my kids properly.

Logic has failed the world. Lets talk about War. The NWO invaded Iraq , i thought that would stop the bombing and killing--million of dollars down the drain, thousands of human lives lost. Where is the successful logic here??

I dunno how y'all grew up but someone did not do a great job telling most kids about Christ hence we have men and women from Christian homes who turned out to be atheists. Its disgraceful but it is what it is.

Mate you reek of bigotry. Someone did not do a great job telling most kids about tolerance and mutual respect, hence we have men and women from Religious homes who turned out to be homophobes, and religious bigots. Its disgraceful but it is what it is.

And with all due respect, you don't know zilch about logic, as you can't grasp it's fundamental tenets. Which is why it is insulting to read your comment.

KenGali: It will be inimical to blame the corrupt mindset that pave Nigeria on religion. Half the people that say they are religious are there only for the social benefits. I think it is either a sociological defect or a genetic defect.

Need I remind you that almost all the principles that define the modern world, from Democracy, to freedom, and human rights are rooted from the Judeo Christian religion, Not to talk of even legal processes. What has failed woefully is the Nigerian brand of religion, not the existence of God.

What we are sure off is that some countries have succeeded with religion. What is to be tested in the next century is whether these countries can succeed again without religion. Can men show empathy and compassion at the level required for a society to survive, without having a religious conviction prompting them to do so. The next 50 to 100 years will tell.

I admit you argue your point quite literary, but you miss important minutiae. The principles that define the modern world are products of secularism not a Judeo-Christian baseline. The fundamental belief of democracy and equality has been in man from the beginning of known history, a few advanced Greeks confounded this concept before Abraham Lincoln was cradled. The history books will enlighten you.

All enviable periods of human achievement has been at the times of more secularism and less astuteness to religion. The Islamic Golden Age was during the time of peaceful co-habitation between the prevailing Muslims and subordinate religions. Same as the renaissance was fueled by the increasing gap between religion and state.

It is not surprising that many of the OECD countries have a high number of non-religious people. Even the Scandinavians with established church states have a very open secular society.

Basing modern achievements on religion is a fallacy. Take out the religious bashing in the world, and this world would make more sense. There's no misrepresentation in the fact that third-world countries and high conflict incident areas are predominantly religious.

Atheists and people without religious convictions pay taxes, are environmental conscious, are charitable, are law-abiding, and are capable of compassion and empathy. The idea that the non-existence of religion would lead to a fatal doom of the present world order is as disturbing as it is ignoble. The opposite is true, rather unfortunately.

KenGali: You need to go research on this your atheism, Atheism refers to the lack of deities, Theism refers to the existence of at least one deity. If you do not believe a conscious super being exist, then you only believe in random processing that are unconscious. I think you are confused as to what atheism is, do not just adopt the lastest buzz word coming from Wall Street. You need to find out exactly what it is before spreading the word like you are doing.

The dude sounds like an Agnostic. Although his view is quite unique, he subscribes to the premise of creationism, just not by a being deemed to be revered as "God". It's a mixed bag, but that's an Agnostic signature right there.

Ahem, about intelligent design. It's very compelling on both the macro and micro level of observation that the intricacies are too complex to be ascribed to mere chance. But that's just it, nothing more than a statement of logic. A simple 'what if', pulls the curtain on this surprising conclusion.

Because on both ends of the scale, life and the universe or universes (if the multi-verse theory deserves recognition) are (as far as we know) self-sustaining. Where did Intelligent design start, and when did it end? Evidently, the universe is still expanding, new galaxies are forming as old ones are being obliterated at a bewildering rate at incomprehensible locations. Even at that, new species, strains and adaptations on both the macro- and microscopic scale are evident on life forms on this planet, who then can rule out the possibility of life elsewhere in contrasting living conditions. What if life as we know it is not same somewhere else, do we ascribe it to a deft being or simply a process that seems to hinge on luck and chance.

The only critter of sanity is postulating that unless there's justifiable proof, demonstrative rather than implicating: we stick to what we know. Some evolution theories are frankly hilarious or dead-beat ludicrous, but the religious accounts are more absurd.

Intelligent design is compelling, but it does not prove the existence of God, if anything it only explicates the need for us to understand our immediate environment because there's a lot to learn.

tonididdy: i have no religious affiliation...i just know whats good and whats evil, whats right and whats wrong...and YES! I bELEIVE iN GOd

I'm in denial here. Once, I've been asked--on Nairaland--how it is possible to be a theist and not have a religious affiliation. I doubt I was convincing, maybe you could be. It's always good to hear from a person who shares the same fundamental logical patterns as mine.

Oh, and as I observed, there are quite a few female viewers. Nonetheless, I've not had the grim opportunity to read the post of an atheist female. Of if that's too extreme, any of the three classes of Agnostic.

Mee234: There can be no clearer definition of empathy--especially in it's broadest philosophical contextual


Since u know this why did u state that lack of moral eguale lack of empathy?

You evidently missed my point. Morals have a forbearance--even if not realised--on empathy. You subconsciously do good instead of evil for the diminutive reason of the impact it'd have. How can you be so inanely concerned of the tenacity of your action without a corresponding sense of empathy? I'm beleaguered by this concept.

Mee234: wrong, u can lack empathy and still be full of moral

Morals demand that you try not to be a negative influence to your society (at least subjectively). Relatively, you have to work this out (your set of morals) by thinking about the "other person." There can be no clearer definition of empathy--especially in it's broadest philosophical contextual usage.

tonididdy: dont get me wrong bro...i beleive ther's a GOD but i dont believe u've tto participate in any religion tto be in good terms with him(God).
religion is confusing and still confused...what matters as human is know the difference between ''good and evil''.

Are you religious? I mean apart from culturally living as a Christian, what is your religious affiliation?

Black Human: I so much agree with your post, AGNOTISM is the only true religion to be honest, because the truth is no one knows the exact truth. we are all just "beilieving","hoping" thru faith. besides some of the world's smartest men are AGNOSTIC e.g Bill gates,Warren Buffet e.t.c

Being a pedantic chronicler, I have to point out the obvious--Agnoticism is not a religion. I find that Agnostics are moderates, which I believe is why they're often leaders in their various engagements. This is important since there's almost always a shade of grey with macro-concepts.

Before we congratulate the reps for advocating the mind of the people, we have to give credence to the Automotive Lobbyists who convinced the Reps behind the scenes [with cash gifts, campaign funding promises etc]. Else, these reps don't give an eff about who benefits from this or if it affects the citizenry.

And less I forget, the economic team in the FG should do due diligence before enforcing policies that seem to be thought out by a retard in a state penitentiary. Like the fuel subsidy, the automotive industry increased tariffs are not pragmatic. It would amongst other consequences push the inflation rate north of what it is now.

Lord

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anochuks08: When a client sees an item and pays for it, the payment is withheld, the seller will be notified as he or she will ship out. When the buyer recieves the item, he is to use the item and go through it for 2 business days, after which he will personally log in to his account to release payment. If he is not satisfied with it, he pays for the return shipping to the seller, and his money will be refunded.

I don't recall we having a crowdfunding platform in Nigeria that'd usually provide a discussion board for startups to be critiqued. Nairaland could be that, so I'd advise you create a thread, promote it in discussions like this, monitor it and be active. Sooner or later some avid online shopper, eCommerce expert would have a word or two for you.

That said, I went through the vision statement of tradevite, it's ambitious and a tall order. You guys should have realistic short targets that lead to your ultimate goal. I look forward to seeing you guys go mainstream.

Kennyfancy: incase,,u need agent,,i offer delivery within delta state,,, i charge very low,,i cn giv u any details of mine if u want,,am currently working on ways to solve this problem,,,,feel free to call kenneth on 08164421812

That's interesting. Ensure you have good testimonials, word-of-mouth marketing still works. Then try to build your network in Delta. If you turn out to be credible enough, you could become a local partner for one or more trademarked delivery service.

Just do your homework and have a big enough goal to make you want to work harder.

EnterPRO: @LordAdam : Simplepay dot com offers escrow services.

I believe you mean "simplepay4u dot com". As a corporate business, I think that web address is cumbrous. Simplepay dot com may not be available, but I think Simplepay dot com dot ng is available and should be used. In time, with success and funds the Simplepay dot com and/or dot me domain name(s) would be twirled up.

For now, this startup needs marketing and partnerships. Adverts in the offline and online media in addition to the tech-oriented sites (sponsored articles/direct advertisement). Then partnership with one of the big names would give them instant exposure, one that'd have required a lot of naira on advertising. Make no mistake tho', this requires some deep pocket so it's about time Simplepay went out for funding. Find a good business plan writer, find someone passionate about the industry to lead the funding charge, and I'm sure with what Simplepay has done already tech-wise they can get a couple of backers who would not just give their money, but their advice and extensive machinery to ensure success.

In the meantime, I'd appreciate if the dispute feature was integrated into the web app. Consumers usually prefer an integrated approach, I don't want to have a problem with my order as a buyer and have to go through my email client, I want to go to the Payment processor and call attention from where I transferred my money. It is simplistic for the seller too, as contractions are organized through a single platform. Trust me emailing would get clunky when a large seller has about 3 disputes going on at a time.

Fraud is everywhere, although Nigeria takes it to new levels. As such every right thinking individual would want a tangible proof before parting away with his/her money for a product/service sold online.

Talking about registering a company is expensive for the small seller who just happened to come across a buyer from another bloc of the country. Even the registered companies like Jumia still offer pay-on-delivery services. The apotheosis is that pay-on-delivery would always be a service offered, but most importantly is for trust to be shared between buyer and seller.

Presently, it's a face-palm situation in the Nigerian eCommerce industry. Big names still face enormous strategic difficulties, however, this thread is about sellers connecting with buyers.

Someone mentioned Paypal in the thread, and that rung a bell. We have national payment solutions like Onlinenaira, Voguepay, but that's just one step in the right direction. The next is to have a big name like OLX or Quickteller or eTranzact buy or establish a symbiotic relationship with these solutions. Such that buyers can easily transfer money to their Payment processor's account (Onlinenaira, Voguepay personal account) using their debit (ATM) cards (irrespective of bank), or through the good ol' fashioned banking hall; and then use the money to pay a seller who would send the product paid for. The seller would not be able to withdraw that money for a fixed period (say 3 days), during which the buyer can file a dispute if the product falls short of expectations. The payment processor mediates the dispute and helps reach a satisfying outcome (it could be refunds, replacement, or stating that the buyer is over-reacting).

For this immense service, about 1.5-3.0% of payments made would be taken by the payment processor. This would allow small sellers to thrive without shelling out between 70,000-150,000 to register a company and all the hassles encountered while trying to get a company. As well as allowing new starters have a say in the market. This would imbibe the values of Capitalism -- healthy competition, innovation, an amalgam of good products and good service -- into the industry.

Presently, with the amount of money entering the country, the amount internally generated, the readiness of international investors to pump their money here, the availability of technological solutions; I think the only reason something like this has not been realized is either poor business focus or someone has not being able to relate this need in a "easy as pie" format to a deep pocket investor. Else, it beats me that there is the technology, the market, the money; and there's no solution yet.

I'm willing to hear the other side of the story, Nigerians are enterprising so there may be something more to this than meets the eye.

Lord

expert101: What is the billion-dollar idea about? You need to test run or carry out analysis to be sure it will succeed.

Get a lawyer friend to register a Limited Liability Company for you. It won't cost more than N90,000. After that you can apply for trademark which
usually takes 5years to come out, but then you can start your business while you strategize your plans.

Web based startup is good if you have something new that solves a problem not same old website with poor design and concept.

Finally make sure you have mapped out your revenue model that will be constant in at least two different ways.

cheeers!

For a web-based startup, I suggest starting out first before registering an LLC. Most startups over in Silicon Valley did not start there, many started out in a youth's bedroom.

Which leads me to my next point, carrying out an analysis or test run is one way a on-the-ground startup is a money-guzzler than a web-based startup. There's hardly any formal analysis to do if you indeed have a unique idea and have done ample research yourself.

Oh, and the problem I foresee is the design and funding factors. Except you're a web developer yourself, you'd be spending quite a lot to getting anything near contemporary design. You could get a good developer to be part of your team, so you wouldn't have to pay a flat rate, else be ready to stick to 2010 web designs in 2013/2014.

Last but more importantly, the uniqueness of your idea contributes little to the success of a startup, if there's no drive, creativity and a clear direction slated out. Without those qualities you definitely would end up with an expensive failure.

With regards to your concern about your idea being stolen, welcome to Nigeria; a trademark may be awarded but a trademark is not a patent. Trying getting the backing of a capital fund or rich relative/friend, else you just have to start off and see how it goes. From what I know, geniuses usually have a couple more ideas up their sleeves. And your unique idea today would be a shadow of it's evolved form in 5 years, if you get that far.

Lord.

arbitrage: I have sent you a lengthy reply too.

LOL. I'd send a shorter reply from now on. I've been cowed by the length of yours.

arbitrage: I didn't get any reply from your email address.

Did exactly 24 hours ago. I shouldn't be saying this, but I am, please check your spam. I've sent the mail again.

Many thanks.

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Danchito: your network and nigeria network are dumb and yours is the worst

It is so folish to make bb subscription cheaper than normal data plans. It means you want people to browse only with bb and forget their laptops and other internet device......am breaking my airtel sim............airtel is dead

Actually it makes economic sense. These ISPs know BlS is a lost cause and are simply doing their best to support a legacy service. As more users stop using Blackberry OS mobiles and move on to BB10, Android, iOS, Windows OSes, BIS would depreciate in value (Proof is the loss of unlimited data to loss of youtube streaming abilities to shrinking of allotted data bandwidth). One day BIS would fizzle off and with it would be the end of the only bout of affordable internet we've ever used in this country.

Away from that forecast, look at this development from the eyes of the shareholders of these ISPs, you'd find out it's all about more profits. Android, iOS, Lumia [maybe BB10]; are the future of mobile phone usage. They consume more data bandwidth and their users will always be obliged to pay for data even if rates were to go up. This is what is happening in the West (North America and Europe); unlimited data plans are being eroded by the big ISPs in favor of capped bandwidth. Here, BIS is gradually being eroded for unreasonably priced plans that would wind up more money for as little data possible (threading carefully so as not to incite a standoff or mount pressure). The reason established by the ingenuous corporate heads is the rising cost of supporting the need for more bandwidth (which may appear true but is actually a bait).

In essence, I am referring to basic economics (has little to do with my name); demand and supply are inversely related: while demand and price are directly related as supply and price are inversely related. In this case, when demand rises, supply drops, while prices go up.

Lord Adam

fr3do: Smart Alec
Mtn bis is unlimited
Your bandwidth is only reduced when u pass 3gig

As a matter of fact, you're incorrect. MTN BIS is capped. Unfortunately, unlike other ISP BIS plans, there's no factual value of bandwidth allocated per plan (call CC if in doubt).

That said, the OP sure has an attitude. He strikes me as one of these privileged dudes who want to help but don't know how to. If he came off any less sympathetic, he'd still have incurred the wrath of some disgruntled forum members.

However, I can say with certainty that Airtel would do fine after this, they would certainly have lost part of their BIS revenue; but they'd gain the advantage of a less-burdened network. Exactly why other networks seem better at the moment.

GLO and ETISALAT BIS plans may be working on Android mobiles for now, but not for long. Historically, this lease by both networks are short-lived. We need affordable internet in the country, Airtel is at fault: MTN, ETISALAT, GLO are too. Please if you're deeply concerned about the rates stop taking it on Airtel, other networks are no better.

In closing, our ISPs are capitalists (so forgive their perceived insensitivities), and are ROACHES too. Deliberate or not, they do not have the infrastructure to support their large customer base (that has no problem with pumping their accounts full). This explains the frequent outages, terrible network et cetera. They're stretching their capacities to the limits while ripping us off in grand fashion.

I will purchase a glo bundle of 4GB for #5000 when my gigs on Airtel have been exhausted for PC use. I still have an OS 7.1 Blackberry device (because it is more pragmatic considering the state and pricing of Internet in Nigeria). That same price would get me an unlimited data plan in Ghana on the tigo network (do your research).

*For a country with the 8th largest number of internet users in the world, that is the third fastest growing economy in the world, to be the largest economy in Africa in 3 years time; we have an abysmal pricing of Internet services that begs for a review* Fact remains that we are Nigerians, in a country where anomalies are sanctioned, we are happy to suffer (rather engaging in meaningless frivolities), always swallowing whatever bundle of cr*p is thrown at us.

CURSE AND WHINE AS YOU WIILL, THE ISPS WILL ALWAYS HAVE THEIR WAY WITH HAVING US PAY SCANDALOUSLY FOR PRECARIOUS INTERNET SERVICES [unless something is done about it].

Lord Adam.

arbitrage: Sent you a mail.

Sent you a reply.

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FineBro: 14.2 millon will be enough to change your wardrope and accessories throughout your lifetime. Why waste in one one cloth.

It definitely raises a question mark when one spends that much for one cloth, but it is does not qualify that as a waste. Do you know how much, this same shirt would be auctioned in say 10 years or 20 years time? It is like when art works are sold for as high as 1 Billion Naira.

As long as it is Kano's share of the Allocation that is used, no problem. They can do whatever they will with their money. But then, who else other than myself is thinking that these guys in the north are finally seeing breakup as a possibility and are planning ahead with another ''Oil Country''.

With the present Infrastructural and Security Challenges, i doubt we would see a true 4G network till around 2016, despite the competition.

Hopefully, this BH menace would soon end with dialogue around the corner or perceived weakening. And with the Power situation improving, we might begin to have good news soonest. But for the next few years we would probably be paying good money for crap services. We still do not have fixed broadband in Nigeria, our data rates are scandalous, not as many fibre optic cables or satellites as we need. When the Glo-1 went down and still is, all the networks went out, it is shameful and instead of the FG to absolve the shame of not making valuable input to boost the infrastructure, they went ahead to bill the telecoms for poor service like they were hoarding good service or like it was their fault.

1 thing at a time, i am not waiting for magic, i just think Nigeria can not be held back for long. And for the record, i am not in the telecoms industry neither am i related to anyone in the telecoms industry either. I am just another patriotic Nigerian who is willing to see this nation grow as one entity; and ready to stay through the setbacks. We all have roles to play.

Top Priority - Power. Lets face it, no man born of a woman can tackle corruption in nigeria the way we want it to be, if there is no industrialisation which would increase peoples independency and ability to think straight. Power is what is halting this industrialisation.

Security comes next, but it can't be salvaged so soon. Hence, it just has to be managed.

Many other things would fall into shape if affordable power is available. There would be less occurence of fuel scarcity, better private investments that would boost our total infrastructure both directly and indirectly(through taxes).

And can someone give the link to the thread of how we can help our govt, cos i got a few things to say about that.

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There is always a real and a fake. Somehow, people don't want to see that. There are real trangenders out there that did not need any surgery to make them women with a c***. When you have billions of pairs that code for a person's phenotype. And the possibility that many factors including environmental factors can influence how things finally turn out, i don't know why it is hard to see why it is mathematically possible for people with more than 5 fingers to be born, 1 ear, extra legs, siamese, males with female attributes, imbeciles, super females, females like men, men who are not attracted to females. We have women in our societies with beards, hairs on their legs(that surely is not normal), and deep down some of us casting stones here would say OMG in their minds. That is the minimum, what abt the possible extreme?

Still, there are those that are the fake, straights that become gay for security issues or a twisted past. But since we can not always draw the line, i think the least we could do is exercise respect, whilst not allowing anyone throw his/her trash in your face.

I want to make my final piece about this thread title, Morality. Morality is subjective. 500 years ago, it was a norm and moral in Britain for a man to have a special cane to beat his wife up like the less-civlized muslims still do. 500 years ago, there were more than 2000 offences that warranted death in the UK. It is safe to say that in 500 years, moral preachers and indeed atheists and some free thinkers would agree that a death sentence is archaic, like is done in present day Norway. Morality is dynamic.

500 years ago, it was okay for both atheists, and theists together to have slaves, today we have leapt past that. One day, we might all have to be arguing about the morality of making a humanoid robot a slave at home. Morality is dynamic.

4000 years ago, it was customary for two national entities who fought wars to seek the annihilation of the opponent to prevent the possibility of another war brewing up again which meant civilians were killed in their thousands. Today morality demands that civilian killing during a war is a crime against humanity.

Maybe i can not fight for Yahweh because he is my creator and the created can not be a better adversary than his creator, but examine this carefully. Even after the many laws he set using moses that went against modern convictions, when he came down in the form of a man 2000 years ago, he said those rules were made due to the hardness of the then hearts of the Jews. Furthermore, he went further to preach the gospel of Love and Grace not dos and don'ts. He in this example told us that morality changes.

100 years ago, it was a shame for a man to let his wife go to work, today we let our wives become presidents. The tide changed. And Yahweh watched it all along. His purpose for letting all this happen, might never be appealling to a large number of us, because we want a superman God. For the religious theists, one that bends to their will or one
that rules with an iron hand without questioning that would kill all that do not believe him the same way as they do. For the atheists, he should be a God, that should flaunt all rules to bring this world to utopia just because he can.

I believe in a God with principles, who laid down rules that he chooses not to break. A good example was to let his body be killed so he could take full control of the destination of people who chose to be morally guided by the rules that govern their era of living(Christ in Hell to take the keys of Life and death). Something he lost when he let one of his brat creations plunge mankind into perpetual condemnation.

In the coming world that many so believed in and have died for, the promise is that there would be a magnificient city, where all the bigots have their eyes on, and surrounding the city are people, these people may have died from religious, political, racist and ideological wrongdoings. That shows how Fair Yahweh is. In the Bible- Revelations 21:24 say something about it. The hadith have their version. Some eastern religions have their slight variations.

And for the more than 4 billion abrahamic religious followers, Revelations 21:22 has this for you. In that passage, it is written that there would be no temple, meaning no religion. Which pretty much resembles the beginning before even Father Abraham existed; when it was written that all men worshipped the same God, without religion in the way and all men did to others as he would want unto himself(Noah's immediate offsprings after the flood).

I want to make my final piece about this thread title, Morality. Morality is subjective. 500 years ago, it was a norm and moral in Britain for a man to have a special cane to beat his wife up like the less-civlized muslims still do. 500 years ago, there were more than 2000 offences that warranted death in the UK. It is safe to say that in 500 years, moral preachers and indeed atheists and some free thinkers would agree that a death sentence is archaic, like is done in present day Norway. Morality is dynamic.

500 years ago, it was okay for both atheists, and theists together to have slaves, today we have leapt past that. One day, we might all have to be arguing about the morality of making a humanoid robot a slave at home. Morality is dynamic.

4000 years ago, it was customary for two national entities who fought wars to seek the annihilation of the opponent to prevent the possibility of another war brewing up again which meant civilians were killed in their thousands. Today morality demands that civilian killing during a war is a crime against humanity.

Maybe i can not fight for Yahweh because he is my creator and the created can not be a better adversary than his creator, but examine this carefully. Even after the many laws he set using moses that went against modern convictions, when he came down in the form of a man 2000 years ago, he said those rules were made due to the hardness of the then hearts of the Jews. Furthermore, he went further to preach the gospel of Love and Grace not dos and don'ts. He in this example told us that morality changes.

100 years ago, it was a shame for a man to let his wife go to work, today we let our wives become presidents. The tide changed. And Yahweh watched it all along. His purpose for letting all this happen, might never be appealling to a large number of us, because we want a superman God. For the religious theists, one that bends to their will or one
that rules with an iron hand without questioning that would kill all that do not believe him the same way as they do. For the atheists, he should be a God, that should flaunt all rules to bring this world to utopia just because he can.

I believe in a God with principles, who laid down rules that he chooses not to break. A good example was to let his body be killed so he could take full control of the destination of people who chose to be morally guided by the rules that govern their era of living(Christ in Hell to take the keys of Life and death). Something he lost when he let one of his brat creations plunge mankind into perpetual condemnation.

In the coming world that many so believed in and have died for, the promise is that there would be a magnificient city, where all the bigots have their eyes on, and surrounding the city are people, these people may have died from religious, political, racist and ideological wrongdoings. That shows how Fair Yahweh is. In the Bible- Revelations 21:24 say something about it. The hadith have their version. Some eastern religions have their slight variations.

And for the more than 4 billion abrahamic religious followers, Revelations 21:22 has this for you. In that passage, it is written that there would be no temple, meaning no religion. Which pretty much resembles the beginning before even Father Abraham existed; when it was written that all men worshipped the same God, without religion in the way and all men did to others as he would want unto himself(Noah's immediate offsprings after the flood).