₦airaland Forum

toba:
this is revealed in their reactions towards the theists when the God subject is being discussed

Very false, the problem is that you have been wired to believe that any body that questions your belief of refuses to accept it is either blind, angry or lost, because he refuses to buy into what you have been indoctrinated to accept as the "fact". . . . .

if atheists arent scared, they wouldnt spend too much time wanting to convince the theists of his non existence

Going by your ridiculous logic all christians that spend too much time wanting to convince muslims about the non existence of Allah as the true God are all scared of Allah. . . .Do you see how illogical your premise for making this baseless argument sound?. . . .

does this however make evolutuon a fact for pple to want to defend same blindly?.

Your argument is not tenable because as I aforementioned, there are more theist who believe in evolution than atheist, majority of American and European christians  believe in evolution instead of creationism some of the greatest advocates of evolution are christians and they claim its compatible with their religion. . . .Using evolution as an atheistic position is FALSE since their are more christains that believe in it more than atheist for example the catholic church which is the biggest body or sect of christians accepts evolution. . . .

i havent said so. im just trying to say that God is beyong what science can comprehend then why then do we still need to empirically or scientifically prove Gods existence?

Self projecting your self as God and sending God into the realm of the unknown so that belief in the said God can continue, no? Is it not the same God that christians always say he answers their prayers for example and use it as evidence for his existence? If such is true then there should be evidence to show that christians that pray to God for protection from harm or quick recovery from diseases are better protected or heal faster from diseases than atheist, no? Do you have any evidence for that?. . . .Is there any evidence to show that christians suffer who pray to their God suffer less harm and misfortune than the atheist?. . . .The answer is NO. . . .You start by saying that God is beyound anything and he is mysterious, but when you talk to each other then you use words like God appeared to you in your dreams, some claim they hear his voice, but when an atheist comes into the picture the God that speaks to chrisians and tells them what to do suddenly becomes this mysterious being that is only responsible for the creation of the universe. . . . . . .He no longer answers prayers of talks to people, the argument suddenly changes to God created life and the universe. . . .

simple question. is God a physical being like every other human being?

The bible says he is. . .The bible says he even wears cloths and  sometimes stains his cloth with the blood of his enemies. . .Moses saw his back parts, he used to address the ancient jews through public speech. . . .He can write on walls, he is male etc. . . .H

well u should have done well to point to the ones that are right and the ones that are wrong.

Ok. . .

Christianity: Have been raised to believe in God

Atheism: Have been raised to believe in atheism and Darwinism. someone might want to say what do u mean? Please try to study about an atheist called Richard dawkins. Hes already championing this course and has already organized summer camps for kids aged 8 to 17, to teach atheism. This is the age bracket that attends Sunday school to learn about God and the Ten commandments

All the atheist here on nairaland were former theist who were raised to believe in one version of God or another, so what exactly are you saying?

toba:
We are seen many things on Nl and on the www. In fact on Nl we ve seen/heard many things that are astonishing.

Religion has been defined same as atheism. an atheist will choose to define atheism as the lack of belief in god/God. The question that comes to mind next is, why then do the atheists get outraged and feel uncomfortable at the mention of the name God?

Atheist get outraged and uncomfortable when the name of God is mentioned? How?. . . .

I think what u don't believe in shouldn't get u scared or frightened except only if u have somethings in common with those that actually believe in same.

Evidence that atheist are scared of any God. . . .

In as much as i wouldnt sanction the theists trying to force their beliefs on the atheists, same way i wouldn't accept the atheists doing same thing, claiming science says this or that. To date science is yet to tell us as a fact that there exists no God cos both science and God aren't related in my opinion. God is not a scientific name or tool, neither does God has a scientific definition, hence using science to prove the non existence of God is very illogical as far as im concerned. It takes faith to believe in God same way some atheists have so much faith in Evolution and that the christian God is a non entity.

More theist believe in Evolution than atheist, majority of American and European theist believe in evolution than creationism that's a fact. . . .What you are saying is that God is nothing right?. . . .Science has nothing to do with God but it remains the BEST way to know and understand the world and the universe we live in. . .Science has done for humanity what no God or religion has done or can ever do. . .The christian God is an imaginary being created out of the thoughts of men, and as such that God relies on men to do everything for it. . .It relies on men to propagate its word, teach others about him, fight its wars, build its temples, set its doctrines and laws because that God is nothing but a myth created by men. . . .If the christian God is real we won't be here having this conversation, When was the last time you heard people arguing or debating the existence of the sun?. . . .

Based on the foregoing, i have drawn some similarities that may be found between the Christians and the atheists from different sources. some may be right or wrong, but i think we should deal with those that are right.

Most of what you have written are plain wrong. . .

zataxs:
[img]http://freethoughtkampala.files./2011/09/sophisticatedreligion.jpg[/img]

This picture is worth more than a thousand words. . . .

zataxs:
[img]http://floroy1942.files./2010/02/behead-those-who-say-islam-is-violent.jpg[/img]

Sweetnecta is that you?. . . . .

^^^^
Hype is the name of the game. . . . .A lot of them just create beef among themselves to hype themselves up and sell records. . . .Other like lady gaga go about acting like an eccentric character just to get attention and sell records. . . . .Its all about the paper and anything will be done to make it including telling lies and all kinds of tricks. . . .Nothing is off limits in the entertainment industry. . . .

Sweetnecta:
when he sees his cousins, he falls in lines; playing muslims one time, playing christian at another. but hides his truth [false]. this is hypocrisy.

imagine when your christian cousins finds out that you are more than the muslim infidels. your goose will be cooked, because they are all christian soldiers. and when they hurt, they over destroy.

Just look at the type of language this useless terrorist is using. . . .FOOOOOOL. . . .

Sweetnecta:
see hypocrite. and he called himself a warrior. which war can you fight with 2 faces and no spine? mazaje the boneless lump.

What is this useless terrorist saying?. . . .If all your religion teaches you is how to fight war and become a warrior then that's your business. . .I have never called myself a warrior and I am not in a war with any one, but since all what Islam teaches you is war you automatically assume that every body reasons or sees things the way you do, you see things in only one dimension that is the narrow dimension of friend or foe. . . .Its not every body that reasons like a terrorist the way you do. . . .You keep embarrassing and exposing your self as a useless terrorist when ever you type. . . .Knock it off and take a rest. . . .Useless terrorist. . . .

Sweetnecta:
@Mazaje; he called me terrorist. then qualifies it with useless.
Here you are wrapping me with the wrong label.
You never stop insulting me, even though I can have you as a son.
the arrogance of you.
As i have said, and I do not hate you, you are a poster child for a muslim not to marry badly.
You insult your father, his people, his religion.
Shame on you.
You must be a bad child. Then you become worse as you left guidance.

Yes, I called you a useless terrorist ONLY because you are constantly threatening me with violence. . . .You use words like" I will send rhino to finish you completely or I will beat you up"  Its only a terrorist that uses such language and you are one, since all what your religion teaches you is to cause bodily harm against others that disagree with you. . . .Respect is reciprocal, no?. . . .You said I must be a bad child, eh? OK that means you must be a useless old man that keeps threatening people with violence on the internet. . .Keep on deluding yourself. . .

harakiri:
@Mazaje,If I tell you the countless persecutions I've endured ever since I dumped religion,you'll pity me. The last one was from a close business associate months ago. We had been working on some deals for quite a while and none yielded anything. He began to blame our predicament on my godlessness and I was forced to cut him off. Shortly after we parted ways,I got some big breaks on my own and this same guy started spreading rumours that I was involved in blood rituals. This is a grown man in his late fourties and he's older than me with about 17years! You'd expect wisdom comes with age. Even my younger siblings look at me as an alien from mars and they only recognise me as a human being when they need my help. It's really sad but I have developed thick skin over these things.

Its worse in Nigeria cos most people are uneducated, close minded and generally stup[i]i[/i]d. . . . .Most people don't know anything in Nigeria so its hard for them to understand when you tell them you don't believe in their cleverly concocted mythologies. . . . .When am in Nigeria I mostly play along. . .When am in Kano with my muslims cousins I act as a Muslim, when with my christain cousins, I act as a christian just so that they leave me alone. . . .When in Europe I let every body that tries to disturb me know my position and I've noticed that most Nigerians here accept atheism cos most of their host(the Europeans) are mostly atheist or agnostics so they are just forced to accept or tolerate you because there is nothing they can do to you. . . .Most just feel you are trying to copy the white people. . . .I know exactly how it feels in Nigeria. . . .

Just play along cos you can't reason with them since they are long gone in their various delusions. . . .The truth is they don't even know what they are doing. . . .They have been programmed to hate or dislike what is outside their bubble of delusion. . . . .

Sweetnecta:
yet it is the Fluid of my brother in islam that produced you. behold, mazaje is the poster child of never to choose the wrong spouse. if you are so aggrieved and you really believe that Allah does not exist, return the Fluid of muslim that Allah allowed to make you possible.

i know you are an empty barrel. you have the gut to say you were a christian and now atheist, when Islam had formed you. when i see you in the northern nigeria, i will use dirty and worn out shoes to beat your head. ungrateful boy.

What is this old FOOOOOOOOOOL saying? You have completely lost your bearings. . . .You can't stand me any where you see me so knock it off. . . .Useless terrorist. . . . .

Sweetnecta:
@Harakiri: Mazaje never stops saying wAllahi. and no one is using Koboko to whip him like a stray dog.
imagine if he is being whipped like Kunta Kinte?

You are a stup[i]i[/i]d old man. . . .So what if I use wallahi? Its a part of the hausa language. . . . .Causing bodily harm and killing people is all what your religion advocates, no? Useless terrorist. . . .

harakiri:
@globexl,It can be really tiring. In the real world, I don't even bother explaining myself to anyone (unless the person shows genuine curiosity to learn and isn't looking for holes to sink his/her conversion hooks in). I just stare at them as if they are sheep (doesn't the bible call them sheep by the way?). Arguing with them is pointless. A lot of them will go as far as spreading rumours that you are into a blood cult society. They will manufacture tales about you that people believe without doubt (after all you neither go to church or the mosque). They believe you MUST be serving "something". If there was a drug called "basic common sense and rational thinking BP", I would use every last dime I have to buy as many as I can and give free to Nigerians. Religion and Nigerian home videos have taken over their senses. They are tiring.

It can be tiring, you won't believe ii but just 6 years ago I used to reason like that. . . .If you tell me you were an atheist when I was a chrisatian i will probably run away from you because I will automatically assume you are of the mythical devil, hence you will be tagged as a bad person by me. . . . .Most times I don't blame them because they don't really know what they are doing. . . .They are just lost in a bubble of delusion and craziness. . . .Coupled with the fact that the black man is naturally very close minded unlike the white man. . . .

Sweetnecta:
i said your old man [ra] was my brother. though i never mer him. was i lying? if he were to be alive, he will tell you i am his brother. will he be lying? of course not. neither he nor i will be lying when we say we are brothers. we are brothers coming from Adam [as] and Hawa his mate. we are brothers being both from the black group. we are brothers being both africans. we are brothers being nigerians. the best part is we are brothers by religion of islam. if i am not lying by this part being muslims which you know, then i am not lying based on the things you have no knowledge of. and i don't have to be there to believe it because the evidences are enough. i trut the evidence when i put it on the scale of truth.o.meter. it passed even with perfect score while believing obama is the president of the united states or goodluck is the president of nigeria or un has a chamber for the general assembly. each could be a made belief for anyone who wishes to be blind to it, or a bush man.
which one are you; a blind man in your heart or a bush man?

What is this old man blabbing about?. . . .

while i believe the bible has revelation from God, it also has words of desire from men.
the fact that the collage of creation, however varied the creatures are, are all in agreement and in harmony with the flow of the dynamics of 'things' is an evidence that there is a perfection in creation. and as the say, many cooks [more than one is many] spoil the broth. in this case the broth is the 'universe', since you are only visual. the Cook in this case is the Creator and there is One, the reason you have perfection.
Allah says that if there has been more than One God, you would have seen one or more cooperating together to undermine the Creator. each God would have had his own desire, wishing it to be fulfilled over and and above the Will of the Creator God.

Reality has nothing to do with your beliefs. . . .Allah did not say anything in the koran the men that wrote the koran lied that an imaginary supreme being told them to write those things. . . .Who lied to you that the universe can not have many creators? Some religions believe that the universe had many creators. . .Your empirical evidence to show that beside the lies written in the Koran is WHAT?

start learning mazaje. or I will send rhino 5dm against you.

Who told you that rhino 5dm is a terrorist and a killer like you? You are an old FOOOOOOOOOOOL. . . . .Id[i]i[/i]ot. . . . .

toba:
Yes im basing it on Numbers but not restricting it on Numbers. By such inference im telling u that if such beliefs soothes millions/billions around the world then that can be a testimony to the fact that such a belief is acceptable to them. In this regard u may not be able to distinguish Reality, fact and numbers

Ok, what am saying is that there is a difference between religious beliefs and reality. . . .

Seriously this is not really much of a concern to me cos right from when i was young, there have been this Ifa, sango, oya worshiper around. If u see the way they proclaim their beliefs in there gods, u will think they actually live with these gods. Till date they still do same. Really its not my duty to go force them to change their belief. Its what i know that i would say and what i say is what im sure of to some certain extent. I believe in My God and same works for me. If the Muslims believes in Allah or whatever, so be  it.

OK, fair enough. . . .

Let me simplify. U were talking about belief and how beliefs changes over time from what people believed in then to what we believe in now.I was simply telling u that based on your assertion, its very not impossible that u as an atheist today may abandon such belief to move over to the theistic belief if more evidences arise more than those we already have.

That's true. . .

Sweetnecta:
While mazaje beats the drum of "everything happened without the Creator", he forgets such an idea is deficient in many ways;

1] This is the only process and time that they can use such a concept. Even they will concede that everything else today or in the past has a causer.
2] This idea of theirs abruptly stopped and never to come to life again so as to shame doubting thomases like me and all creationists.

To disproof the first idea, there is no time or anything known to man, things useful to the essence of man that suddenly came about, while man manufacture similar things.
Let use a bridge over a gorge or water to illustrate this. Has anyone seen a bridge without a builder? Can any just appear before our eyes so that we can use it to cross to the other side and then after that disassembles itself or simply vanish as it had appeared? This will proof the atheism concept to so many if this is possible. It will never happen because it is impossible. the concept of atheism is just that; concept that is fostered by much layers of lies and denial.

All things are created by Creator and we realize it when we see it. If the designer/manufacturer of computer chips does not tell us the secret of its product and indeed the computer, we may all have that infant reaction as he hears dad's voice over the phone, thinking dad is inside it. lack of knowledge is not the reason to say something does not exist especially when you impact of the existence is so apparent. The wind exist, you dont see it. But you can measure its current. Yet it is a created thing.

The proof that the second part of the concept or excuse of the atheist is false is that we do not see clearly a prior intermediate stage between too stages from the more primitive to the more refined in the evolutionary chain.
First we must ask, what was there before the first thing appeared and then began its evolutionary process? If the atheists can with certainty tell us and prove this, then it is a sign that they have nothing to stand on except conjecture.

But we should even expect the more refined product of the more crude origin to evolve even faster than their primitive origin. Yet man has been stagnant as if it is not a product of atheist concept of evolution, since Adam. Why? Simply put, evolution is a fluke.

Everything is created by God in its present form, perfectly. If it deviates, it becomes abnormal, deficient, imperfect and its efficiency is compromised. We are yet to discover all that God created. If we have today, there will not be any more knowledge and discovery for the future generations. Yet, no one can prevent himself from aging and at the end death.


Will you not learn, atheists?

Atheist will learn when you provide a single evidence for your BASELESS and mythical assertions. . . .Your evidence to show that the universe was created by ONLY one entity and not many entities is WHAT?

Sweetnecta:
my late brother [ra] you dad saw some good in the granddaughter of your great grandmother, the unlettered, so he married her. you are the son of your mom, educated i think, you are. grandma dictates the letter to the village wiz kid. you read the letter in denmark. when rhino 5dm asked who wrote you, did you say oh its the boy wonder so and so, or do you say great grandma? but great grandma is a stack illiterate.
i think i overrated you by counting you among the literate. your case is worse than great grandma. she at least know she cant pen anything. you on the other hand can't think that the one who dictates is the writer because in the case of great grandma it was her order than boy wonder followed, her words he wrote down in the letter you received.
if monies were requested, you would have been a village id.iot to have sent it to boy genius, instead of great grandmother.

What is this old man saying?. . . . .How did you know that the writers of the Koran weren't telling lies?. . . .Where you there? How did you know there weren't telling lies like the writers of the bible, hindu verders, egyptian book of the dead and other religious books?. . . .So its only the writers of the religion you have been indoctrinated into that are right and all other writers of other religious books are false, eh?. . .You are a joke old man. . . .

shouldn't i throw the same questions back to you on the matters of 'no God exist' that you atheist carry ignorantly without a single sign of any proof? as i said above, i have certainly over priced you. you are worse than great grandma.

Again hwo do you know that the writers of the koran weren't telling lies? Where you there did any God appear to you and told you that he sent mohammed as his last messenger? Where you there?. . . .How do you know that the writers aren't telling lies?. . . .You have lost your bearings. . .

The fact that you chose to deny the truth even after my brother [ra] worked hard to give you a good life, a sound education, and created an environment that allows you to be aware of yourself and others in existence, you never the less swallowed falsehood, hook, line and sinker, only shows that all that effort you have squandered to no reward for him. If there is a poster face for a child Muslim should not have, you are a perfect candidate. may Allah forgive my brother and all muslims who have passed. Amin.

You know no truth old man so stop talking about any truth. . . .Again the fact that you swallowed the lies, myths and ridiculous assertions of the writers of the koran and the creators of the islamic religion hook line and sinker only points to your gullibility and delusion and nothing else. . .Where you there when Allah dictated the koran or do you happen to accept the lies the writers of the koran said to keep people in line?

many in Madina saw strange man appearing that even Umar bin Khattab who was quick to defend the Messenger [as] was incapacitated in the occasion of "The hadith of Jibril dubbed "He came to teach you your religion". You need to check if people saw Jibril, as men in Madina. You will find plenty of instances when he appeared, including in battles on the side of the Muslims.
The Bible writers can say any angel appeared to them. They were not elect of God in truth. Whatever they claimed, is their own desire.

What am I do do with this nonsense? . . . .Stop bandying ancient myths as if they have anything to do with reality. . .The writers of the koran can say any angel appeared to mohammed and dictated some things to him. They were not elect of God in truth. Whatever they claimed, is their own desire.

Sweetnecta:
Of all the things that Mazaje said, he is wrong about Quran. It was not written my men.

Who wrote the Koran if not men?. . . .This old man has lost his bearings completely. . . .

God dictate, except the last 4 verses of Chapter 2 to Jibril.
Jibril repeats the dictates to Muhammad [as].

Where you there?. . . . .Who told you that? The fact that you chose to accept the lies of the people that wrote the koran and created the Islamic tradition hook line and sinker only shows how gullible and deluded you are. . . The writers of the bible said that God inspired them to write it and its true because the bible said so. . . .NEXT!. . . .

toba:
i have addressed all that u ve said above at one point or the other. If u want to argue about numbers, then the theists can also do same. we have fewer christians today cos of fact isnt equal to numbers not so?

You are the one basing your arguments on numbers re-read your post again. . . .Numbers mean nothing to me. . . . .Reality and fact matters more to me not numbers. . . .

if u also want to argue with different sects, i have responded based on what Paul said that pple choose to preach the gospel in different ways yet they wouldnt fail to preach christ and God at the end thereof. If what u are saying can be likened to whats obtainable here on ;l amongst Joagbaje, kunleshodi, frosbel etc u most also note that the end message they preach is christ and God even though they may disagree on manner of getting to reach God.

You forget that Christ is NOT the only God that people believe in and worship. . . .There is no evidence to show that the Christ God is any better than the Allah God is there?. . . .No evidence to show that the Christ God is any better than the Hindu Gods. . . So what has Paul's assertrion got to do with reality?. . . .

f u also want to argue about belief, then atheists are also affected cos many of u guys are strong believers that the christian God is a non entity. From what u are saying above, its very not impossible for u to change your belief from that of the atheistic view if other evidences arise other than the numerous ones we currently have to point to the existence of God to that of theistic view.

I really don't understand what you are saying here. . . .

toba:
u are still missing the point. How does religion become part of Reality? have u forgotten that just as u became an atheist on your own volition, many others could have done same? My bible tells me to have faith tha with God all things are possible, yet that doesnt mean that i should attempt to travel to Canada with having a passport, visa and ticket. so how does religion becomes reality? if religion conflicts with reality can it be discarded? why then do people still refuse to obey some of the religious dictate? or is it everything in the bible or kuran that are obey?

Religion becomes a part of your reality because it helps you to shape how you reason and filter things. . . .Things that religion says are good will automatically be considered as good, and things that religion says is bad will automatically be seen as bad. . . .And that forms the way a person views the world. . .Let me give you a more specific example, according to the bible the rainbow is a covenant between God and men that first appread after the Noah ark myth some 4000 years ago, but the FACT is the rain bow is NOT a covenant between any God and any body but simply a refraction of light waves with it comes in contact with water droplets on the surface of the earth's atmosphere, yet we have the so called christians scientist that go to what ever extent to discard the fact and try to say that the rainbow first appeared 4000 years ago but producing crazy models and lying to themselves all because they believe that the bible must be true. . . .People that refuse to follow religious dictates know very well that their religious assertions are false but will always chose to excuse it. . . .For example there is no where in the bible where it says that people should go to the hospitals when sick, a clear directive to go to the church elders for prayers is what is given, even Jesus told his disciples that they will do greater things than him if they believe. . . .The fact that many believers run to the hospitals when sick instead of doing what the bible says in the book of James is an indictment of the bible because many people did what the bible said and ended up dead. . . .

what u said here is false. arent people free to choose what they want to believe in when they come of age? when u became an atheist, were u killed? Even if children were indeed forced, dont they have the option of changing their belief when they grow up and become independent? if pple choose to stick with their childhood belief isnt it possible that its cos they find same soothing and ok with them? thats why i laught at Dawkins and his approach. he used little children under 10 for an advert. These kids are children of christians yet their parent didnt forcefully prevent these kids from running the advert. Does that mean that when they grow up thay cant choose to go the theism or the atheistic way? i had a little spell in islam and yet it didnt affect my christian faith neither did i allow this to affect my reality

I wasn't killed when I became an atheist, but lost my relationship with my parents, had to tell them I accepted Jesus before we came back together. . . .I was so lucky many weren't many were castigated as the sons of satan etc. . .Those that belong to the muslim faith were not so lucky. . .People chose to stay and practice the religion of their parents ONLY because they know no better, most o my friends know nothing about christianity other than what they were taught by their pastors. . . .I can confidently say that I know the bible more than any christian I have meet in real life. most don't know its history or its contents, even here on nairaland. . .I have had to show many people here on nairaland so many things that they never knew existed in the bible. When i talk they counter by telling me to show them, when I do they just keep quite or try to spin what was written down. . . .The having a stint with Islam with a preconceived notion about it means nothing at all. . . .The bottom line is this if children were taught about all religious beliefs at the same time with the same vigor including the atheistic position and allowed to chose since from childhood there will be far less religious adherents in the world today. . . .Childhood indoctrination is the MAIN and ONLY reason why a majority of the people believe in what ever concept of God they believe in and practice what ever form of religion they practice. . . .

toba:
the diiference between the atheists and the thiests is the God factor. one side believes in God whilst the other doesnt. Even if the very few atheists on Nl choose to open a thread, that still amounts to little cos in reality, more and more converts are being gained into the God fold. fact is that some pple are also leaving being religious but in terms of numbers to both sides, the God side still has the highest number of converts daily than what the atheists would claim to be having. If u doubt that, u can ask google for facts or something close to fact on the statistics of converts

What has numbers got to do with anything? Once upon a time the entire world believed that the earth was the center of the universe, until a man challenged that belief and showed it to be false. . . .Once the whole people that lived in Egypt believed that their kings needed to be buried with their loved ones because of their belief in the after life, back in the days every body believed that people think or reason with their hearts because when people are angry or tensed their hearts beat faster so the correct belief at that time was that people reason and think with their hearts until one man showed that the brain not the heart is responsible for all thoughts, even the religious books imply that people reason with their hearts because you will find passages like God knowing about the thoughts we have in our hearts etc. . .  Billions of people today believe in reincarnation, that doesn't make it true. . . .The fact that billions believe in God doesn't make it true either. . .Religious beliefs have absolutely NOTHING to do with reality. . . .Reality and the truth has nothing to do with numbers. . . .Over 70 percent of the world's population does not believe in your religion. . . .Even within your religion many sects do not agree with each other. . . .

toba:
I think u got it wrong. i said as we choose to become xtians same way people choose to become atheists. didnt u see that part in my post? how ever its pertinent to state that kids are some how gullible and in deed needs to be guided at early stage in life. children are vulnerable and moved by what to see or hear at early stage of life. Hence its imperative they be guided at some stages. When they grow up, they are free to choose their path in life.

Nope they are not free to choose because by then thier religious believes becomes a part of their reality. . . .That' why there are over 1.5 billion muslims, about 1 billion hindus and about 500 million buddist etc in the world today. . . . .Your religious beliefs are your reality. . . .People don't chose to become religious, people are forced to accept it an a very early age without their choosing. . .I will agree with you that people chose to become atheist but people don't chose any religion, people just accept the religion of their parents and get indoctrinated into it at a very early age before they can even reason for themselves the religion becomes a part of their lives and a part of their reality since they are made to reason along religious lines and made to discard anything that disagrees with their religious views. . . .

Do u also know that Dawkins has started the catch them young campaign? the summer camp he organised captured children aged 8 to 17. this is the age range that attend sunday school to learn about God. He teaching them non religious activities can also be likened to what u have said above i.e not allowing children to decide what they want to believe when they come of age.

Lets forget about Dawkings, what am simply saying is that if the bible or the koran for example are presented to children on their 21st birthday for the first time very very few kids will accept the bible or the koran and its stories or theology reason because they will see that many of the things written inside the books do not agree with the reality the see around them. . .Now back to Dawkings, he really doesn't need to do that because a child's natural mind has nothing to do with any God, it just has everything to do with survival. . . .The idea of a God must be taught and learned, it must also be preserved and not allowed to be contaminated by other competing ideas. . . .if children are to be left on their own, or thought about both sides of the arguments since childhood (atheistic and theistic) I seriously doubt if we will have as much believers as we do today. . . . .Lack of belief is seen as a taboo in many societies and hence children are mostly forced to obey and believe. . .Take that out and teach children about both arguments and as i aforementioned the number of believers will reduce dramatically. . .

OLAADEGBU:
A little bit more on the story.

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhT36Dizo2s?version=3&hl=en_GB[/flash]

A little bit more on the reincarnation story. . . .Reincarnation is for real. . . .

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vmpz4W7kGNg?version=3&hl=en_US"[/flash]

OLAADEGBU:
Here is the videoclip showing the boy who had an out of body experience.

Heaven Is For Real! -- Fox News

[flash=500,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVtNzONbaiU?fs=1&hl=en_GB[/flash]

Here is a videoclip showing a child that reincarnated. . . . .


Reincarnation is for real. . . .BBC news. . . .

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoSrzpLoODo?version=3&hl=en_US"[/flash]

OLAADEGBU:
You seem to be so sure that no body inspired scripture just as you are sure that there cannot be any Creator God.  For you to come to this conclusion you must possess absolute knowledge about everything in the universe, no?

A simple reading of the scriptures says it was written by men. . . .There is nothing written it it that could not have been written by ancient and superstitious men of that time. . . . .The writers of the Koran were inspired by God as well, the Koran says so and so IT MUST be true. . . .There is nothing about humans, animals, the earth  and the universe that is not written in the Koran. . . So the Koran too is inspired by God. . .

You can say this because of your presupposition that doesn't allow for the spiritual realm.  You think everything can be explained by natural processes.

Because natural explanations remain the best way to explain things when supernatural phenomena are studied natural explanations provide the best explanations for such phenomena. .  , By the way what exactly is the supernatural?. . . .

As you are reading this right now, can you see your brain, if not why do you believe it exists?

I can't see my brain but i have seen the brain of others. . . . When did you see any God?. . .

God breathed into Adam and Adam became a living soul.  Mankind and animals have nephesh but it is only mankind that lives on eternally.  Death only came because this image has been marred by sin but the spirit lives on, with God or without determining on our decisions here while we are still earth bound.

What has all these tales by moon light mythology got to do with reality?. . . . .Do you have any evidence to show that human consciousness survive bodily death?. . .

Have you heard of gut feelings or intuition, do you know what the conscience is, that part of you that is your moral compass, where do you think it comes from?  Have you heard of those who had heart transplants and began to behave differently?  Just something for you to think about.

Morality MUST be learned. . . .It does NOT function on gut feeling that is why parents spend a lot of time teaching their kids about the differences between right and wrong. . .All moral rules  were set by men. . . .And these moral laws evolve and chane all the time, what might be considered morally right today might be considered evil tomorrow. . . .Heart transplant might make a person weak or slow but it does NOT erase a person's memory completely or make him act as a new being. . . .People's behavior have been altered completely due to brain injury. . .If people have immaterial souls then how is it that an injury to a material brain changes or affects the immaterial soul?

There is no way for you to prove empirically the spiritual realm just as you cannot detect the ultimate cause of the universe or the origin of life.  There are many documentations of people who have died and experienced the spiritual realm, heaven and hell but since you have already made up your mind you may not want to be confused with the facts.

There are documented cases of people that were  said to have reincarnated reincarnated after they died, some were studied by very established scientist and their studies were published in scientific journals. . . .But in this case it was reincarnation not life after death. . . .Do you believe that people reincarnate? There are a lot of such cases published in scientific journals. . . .Viaro once put up such publications in another thread I will look it up and provide you the links. . .But since you have made up your mind about reincarnation I know you will not believe it. . . .

I will post a videoclip of a child who left his body on the operation table and witnessed what was happening to his body and his parents who were in separate rooms while he was still being operated on.  He spoke of going to heaven and seeing Jesus including his grandfather who he had never met before, he described what he looked like so accurately that his father confirmed it with pictoral evidence.  But then, if you don't believe the Bible you will not believe this testimony.

Here is a video of children that reincarnated. . . .It was reported on Abc news. . . .Since it was reported on TV(abcnews) then it must be true, no?

[flash=400,400]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EWwzFwUOxA?version=3&hl=en_US"[/flash]

toba:
Hi folks. I' ve been meaning to write this for quite a while. I' ve shared bits and pieces of my personal story in various threads but I 've never gathered the entire things in one place, so here goes. I was born in 1982 in Lexington, Kentucky. My parents were both atheists at the time, although my mother converted to Christianity while I was a teenager. My parents were and are both good people who gave my brother and I everything that we needed in terms of food, clothing, health care, education, and the like. However, they gave us very little moral instruction, perhaps because they themselves were rather confused on the issue.

Instead, I picked up my worldview in bits and pieces from school books, the media, and various other sources. Following my parents I took up very left-wing political positions. The ultimate enemy was "the religious right", and of course I knew that I was vastly better and smarter than any Christian because I had logic, science, and reason on my side, rather than primitive superstition and fear.

I left for college in 2000, going to Harvey Mudd College in the Claremont system in California. While there , I participated with a number of left- wing political groups, including Ralph Nader's presidential campaign. Of course Nader flopped utterly, and most of the other groups that I participated with tended to be rather stagnant. The more I watched them, the more I noticed signs of insincerity and hypocrisy, until by senior year I finally gave up on political activism.

As my identity had been tied up with those groups during my college years, I needed something else to replace them. I entered graduate school in mathematics and decided to throw myself into my work, seeking to find a sense of purpose there. While I succeeded with that for a little while, I eventually began to doubt that the work itself had much meaning. The particulars of the research I was doing had no meaning in the real world, and eventually I found that I couldn' t do it any more . Also, while in college, some of my professors had introduced me to the despair-inducing works of Nietzsche and the schools of thought that saw all morality as relative, meaning as non-existent, or reality itself as being unknowable. All of this combined to sink me deeply into depression and suicidal thoughts, and I felt as if death had to be approaching because I couldn't see any reason to go on living.

Around this same time I had been hanging out online with some members of several different Christian groups. (I actually encountered them first because I tried writing a few science fiction short stories and I met these people through the publishing industry. ) They impressed me with their intelligence, kindness, and humility. At some point someone introduced me to the British author G. K. Chesterton. After reading a few of his fiction books, I read his apologetic work Orthodoxy, and about halfway through I knew that I was going to become a Christian.

Of course at that time I still knew very little about Christianity. Only after I started going to church and joined a Bible study did I actually read the Bible. I particularly remember reading the Sermon on the Mount for the first time, and as the words of Christ revealed God' s true desires for human life, all the bad philosophy I had taken in over the years simply melted away

I wish that I could write down everything that Jesus Christ has done for me since that time, but unfortunately this forum limits me to only 15,000 words and that's just not enough. So I' ll just have to say that while I used to be a small-minded and hateful, depressed, fearful, and even suicidal person, now I wake up every day thanking God for the neverending joy and love that he's brought into my life .

If you are reading this and you need someone to talk to about Jesus, or just some to talk to generally, please feel free to send me a message. Sometimes I' m away from the internet for a few days but I 'll get back to you as soon as I can.

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www.christianforums.com/t7576873/

I laugh after going through the parts you highlighted in your post, the author whom I believe is just a lair is just trying to get some silly moot points across, since you believe him let me ask you a simple question. . . .Your evidence to show that Christians are more moral and live more fulfilled lives than atheist is WHAT? Since that is what the author of the article is saying. . .

toba:
Nice thread.

There are some many problems with these folks. No one is born an atheist, this is for sure. even listening to some atheists here on Nl tell about their journey into atheism. some have said its due to lack of answered prayer, loss of a relative etc. for this i can say People choose to become atheists as much as some of us choose to become Christians. And no matter how strenuously some may try to deny it, atheism is a belief system. In my unending argument with a Nl atheist, even after debating on a 4 page thread and giving him direct definition of belief, he gallantly denied the obvious

It requires faith that God does not exist. This it self is something u believe in and carry into almost every discussion. When an atheist says to me that hes certain that the christian God is a non entity, then hes affirming his belief in same regards. When dialoguing with atheists, it is helpful to point out the logical problems inherent in their belief system. Whether they accept or reject it, is a different ball game. smdh once again

What God or religious belief were you born with, if you parents had not taught you about christianity will you have been a christian?. . . .Why do parents teach their kids about their religions at a very early age, why don't they wait till they are adults(21) before teaching them about God and religion?

frosbel:
These guys are just shockingly irrational

You believe that the creator of the universe was going around killing humans and staining his cloth with their blood yet you call other irrational?. . .Nigga plsss

Our societies now are much more tolerant than it was say 3000 or 2000 years ago. . . .If you visit places like Italy, Turkey, Cyprus, Israel and England you will see the structures of old, they lived in walled cities, because of how dangerous it was back then and the level of intolerance. . . Now we don't live in walled cities any more, blacks could only live as slaves among whites like 500 years, now a black man is the president of a white majority country(USA) some thing that could never happen like 500 years ago. . . .Women have greater right now than ever before, integration and tolerance is at its a highest level now. . .A country can not just go and occupy another for no just cause or proper reason, no group of people can invade another group of people for reasons like worshiping other Gods or stuffs like that as it was done in the past. . . . .Back in the days the strong nation just go around annexing the smaller nation as a part of their territory for no reason at all. . . .

Now we have things like war crimes things that never existed like 1000 years ago, we even have things like animal rights in some parts of the developed world. . . .We haven't reached there and I doubt if we can but the world is much tolerant and less violent than it was say 2000 years ago when the big and power nations go around enslaving the smaller nations and their inhabitants. . . .Despite all our arms and modern weapons we are still less violent than the people of old. . . .We have better laws and rules of engagement now than then. . . . .

noetic16:
nice thread . . .I hope the likes of Mazaje and huxley are reading?

noeticcccccccccccccccccc!!!!!  . . . . . . .nice to see you man. . . . . .

Image123:
mazaje. i dey wait for your answer o!

Meanwhile,
You sound frustrated, sorry. The post was directed to those who 'truly need it'.

Frustrated? . . .You wish. . .

Come again? This was what you wanted all to believe belowAnd i made it clearer that it's not only babies but everybody. This is simple context, i don't think you require revelation for this one na, i may be wrong in this thought sha. Here's what i said again. Always note the bolded, there are reason for emboldening, not just decoration.
When it says 'children', it's not fully the idea of babies as mazaje is trying to pass across, to win emotional points. 'Your children' broadly refers to anybody in Israel who is a child of Israel. And anybody in this case is basically EVERYBODY as they were all 'children' of Israel.

'Children' in this context does not refer to only babies. See for instance,
Gen 11:5  And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men built.
Exodus 12:26  And it shall come to pass, when your children shall say unto you, What mean ye by this service?
Exodus 14:15  And the LORD said unto Moses, Wherefore criest thou unto me? speak unto the children of Israel, that they go forward:
The people in the passage above could well be men, not necessarily babies. It's context. You go along with a myopic, dogmatic "I will go with what the bible says". Nothing makes you different from the religious 'hotheads' except your religion. Why don't you go with what the Bible says here for instance and quit your hypocrisy;
Deuteronomy 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

How's this for justice? Picking one verse, and ignoring the rest of the passage, chapter, book or Bible? Look at Leviticus 26 for instance,

Leviticus 26:3  If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them;
He then presents the good things (blessings) for them. Amongst the promises are increase, fruitfulness, vintage, safety, respect, establishment, fellowship, etc. They were in a covenant. There are terms and conditions attached to a covenant/agreement. From buying a sim card to a modem, to admission into an institution, organisation, or country, there are terms, dos and don'ts that you sign. Two parties signed/ratified/agreed to something, some ignorant fellow comes in 2011 yapping about justice. There's been no better deal than God's deal with man, don't bite yourself.
So then we have: Lev 26:14  But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments;
And then follows the punishments and judgements for breach. Amongst it is

Leviticus 26:22  I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, and destroy your cattle, and make you few in number; and your high ways shall be desolate.
The wild beasts was/were going to ravage their children(which could broadly mean their descendants whether old/young), their livestock(cattle there is not just a specie of cows), and they themselves, making them few in number. the judgement was to affect EVERYBODY like i previously said. When you narrowly say 'babies', you miss the point and cause other readers to miss the full perspective.

I don't really know what you are on about here. . . .The passage was clear if the men do not believe wild animals will be sent to destroy their children. . . Some of them with children must have babies as well. . .You even said it your self that the children are not babies alone, but babies are also part of it. . . .So what exactly is all this epistle about?. . . .

Here's what i said. It's not hausa(and even you understand hausa)
Poor generalisation and blindness as usual. Obvious sentimental linking of children to babies, where neither wasn't even directly mentioned. You seem to have deleted the bolded(S) from your own conclusion, abi you picked and chose?
And i emboldened some part of that passage thus.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and, though they discipline him, will not listen to them, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gate of the place where he lives, 20and they shall say to the elders of his city, 'This our son is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of the city shall stone him to death with stones. So you shall purge the evil from your midst, and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Your understanding of this passage was "Disobedient children must be stoned to death. . . .Good justice. . . ."
In other words, this is what you read in that passage.

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Passage says something very clear, children that disobey their parents, children who are drunks and gluttons should be stoned to death. . . .Will you do that to your kids?. . . . .Will you stone you kid that is a drunk and a glutton to death, is that kind of punishment or justice a fair one why or why not?. . . .

i'd be least surprised if you can't spot the difference between the two i.e the real passage and what you read(picked and chose) from the passage.
Almost nothing can get you killed these days. We live in a confused society who'd bashfully do away with all forms of punishment whether corporal, capital or whatever. And it's working very fine, right? No more crime, no more hate, theft, wickedness etc. We've found the perfect solution.  Give yourself a pat on the back.

Only that our society is much more tolerant than it was back in the days when most of the biblical stories were written, read the bible half of it is filled with war and violence either carried out by God or the chosen men of God against others. . .Worshiping another God during the time of moses is enough reason for a nation to be attacked and its inhabitants killed. . . . .The bible has passages where Yahweh commands his chosen people to kill the inhabitants of another city and sacrifice them all as a burnt offering unto him because the worship other Gods. . . .

Silly conclusion. Did you see the bolded? "entices you secretly to serve other gods". There's no where in that passage saying kill followers of other religion. Gosh! Even the Pharisees understood better than you. The Israelites were not going about killing everbody that's not a jew. they had/and still have Godless neighbours. And when you come to the new testament/covenant/agreement, Jews and Gentiles are broadly involved, and nobody's encouraged to condemn any other person. Only God is Judge. the new covenant stopped all forms of killings more than 2000years ago. Civilisation is still struggling to pass it into law till date. A couple hundred years ago, capital punishment was still okay in the eyes of civilisation, you've missed the train.

So enticing a person to worship another God is treason eh?. . .Interesting. . .The passage implies that followers of other religions should be killed. . .I thought people have the free will to do what they want, why then is following another religion such a bad thing when they have the free will do worship what ever God they wanted to worship? By the way a of the stories in the OT is about how the jews engaged in wars with others mostly because they wanted to grab their lands and because the other people worshiped other Gods. . .The Jews that started the christian religion had to take the pacifist approach because they were under the Roman occupation at that time. . .

Image123:
Just to throw some light on these, especially for the benefit of those who truly need it.

You are not throwing any light on anything just deluding your self with very cheap apologetics. . . .

Of all places, it's Leviticus 26 you had to look for in thousands of Bible chapters and verses, in order to find justice. Anyway, to put some perspective, Leviticus 26 was addressed to the Israelites(i.e the children of Israel). Lev 25:2  Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them
When it says 'children', it's not fully the idea of babies as mazaje is trying to pass across, to win emotional points. 'Your children' broadly refers to anybody in Israel who is a child of Israel. And anybody in this case is basically everybody as they were all 'children' of Israel. It's easier though to even defend the 'babies' thing, but it's good we see a clearer and truer perspective.

Only that what you have stated is NOT what is written in the bible but what your mind wants you to see. . . .Here it is once again. . .Its was a warning against the men of Israel who do not want to obey Yahweh. . . . .

Leviticus 26:21-22
" 'If you remain hostile toward me and refuse to listen to me, I will multiply your afflictions seven times over, as your sins deserve. 22 I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children, destroy your cattle and make you so few in number that your roads will be deserted.

I will go with what the bible says against your baseless opinion and la la la interpretation, that is only bent on spinning what was written down to explain absurdity away. . . .

Poor generalisation and blindness as usual. Obvious sentimental linking of children to babies, where neither wasn't even directly mentioned. You seem to have deleted the bolded(S) from your own conclusion, abi you picked and chose?

What are you saying here that children  drink and refuse to obey their parents deserve to be to be stoned to death?. . . .Is that what you are saying?. . . .

This is poor, and showing an attempt not to learn anything new. i guess the people who refuse to listen to the verdict of the supreme court should do as they please, right? That's the way you people do it in denmark ba?
The priest was basically a judge in Israel. They were considered higher in rank than mere judges.

Only that refusing to obey the verdict of the supreme court will not get you killed here. . . . .

Deuteronomy 17:9  And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and inquire; and they shall show thee the sentence of judgment:
Malachi 2:7  For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Haggai 2:11  Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Ask now the priests concerning the law
Did you notice the bolded, or you picked and chose as is becoming your custom? Ever heard of the word 'treason' before? What was and what is the punishment for treason where you know? Even the unjust judge seems to fare better than you mr.

So worshiping other Gods is treason eh?. . . .Why do you guys get angry when muslims kill you for worshiping other Gods or kill others for apostasy?. . . .It is treason in the eyes of their God, and hence justifiable, no?. . .

Image123:
@mazaje
What would you do with a dead baby? i.e if you're in possession of a dead baby?

What a question. . .I will bury it? What else do you expect me to do with a dead baby. . .