₦airaland Forum

chop i chop. . . . .

what are the incentives you have provided to aid the youths yar'ádua? talk is cheap eh?

this guy is gradually loosing the battle. . .

mazaje:
what's this? state within a state? the salves of allah are gradually trying to make nigeria an islamic state. . . . .hizzbollah

the goons are raising the pictures of hassan nasarallah, and the iranan shia supreme leader who do believe that the foolish nigerians are no better than their dogs. . . . deluded goons. . . .

what's this? state within a state? the salves of allah are gradually trying to make nigeria an islamic state. . . . .hizzbollah

davidylan:
That was not the purpose at all . . . christians are not interested in forcing everyone to say the Lord's prayer every morning . . . but that 2 individuals can be sanctioned for praying in their private office? Incredulous and frightening.

if christians had their way they will force everybody to say the lords prayer in american schools. . .

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=263985.msg3758059#msg3758059 date=1240262427]You can only speak of democracy because Christianity introduced it. The reason you have freedom of belief is because Christianity introduced it. Make sure you are actually checking with credible historians and not someone who posts something on the web that agrees with you. Most credible historians today will tell you that Christianity is the reason you have freedom today.[/quote]how did christanity introduce democracy? how did christianity introduce freedom of belief? who are the credible historians that say that christanity is the reason for freedom today? why is it that on the declaration of independence and democracy the first thing that the founders did was to declare the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

KunleOshob:
Jeremiah was talking about scribes and prophets twisting sriptures in before and during his time, some of theses scriptures have found there way into the bible, also there is no evidenc that this tradition of twisting scripture as stopped. Even today that we have a cannonized set of scripture, these so called men of god are still trying to twist it by giving all sorts of ridiculous interpretation to scripture. Essentially why i quoted Jeremiah is becos i wanted the OP and other readers on this thread to realized that man as always twisted the scriptures(from biblical times) even today and that is what accounts for the discrepancies we find in the bible.

mohammed warned muslms against people that wll twist the islamic scriptures, how is that different than what you have written about jeremiah? how can man twist the scriptures when the scriptures are the words, thoughts imaginations, fantasies and ideas of men?

davidylan:
Expulsion Threatened Over Prayer for Sick Teacher

[size=13pt]The case was prompted by an incident just before Christmas in 2007 in which the students went to deliver a Christmas gift to a professor.
"Kandy found the instructor alone in her shared office," according to Pacific Justice. "When the instructor indicated she was ill, Kandy offered to pray for her. The instructor bowed her head, and Kandy began to pray – until she was interrupted by another faculty member, Derek Piazza, who walked in and said, 'You can't be doing that in here!' Kandy quickly left and rejoined her friend and fellow student, Ojoma Omaga. Piazza followed Kandy outside and repeated his rebuke."
While the students reported they were surprised by the teacher's aggressive behavior, they were stunned when, days later, they both got letters notifying them of the college's retroactive "intent to suspend" plan.
The letters, however, provided no facts on which to make such a threat, listing only vague references to "disruptive or insulting behavior" and "willful disobedience."[/size]

Read the full story here

Atheism . . . is not the "mild" rejection of belief in God. It is slowly but surely morphing into a militia-like persecution of CHRISTIANS (trust me Prof Piazza would NEVER have dared raise an objection if it were muslims) . . . the end is near.

bunch of goons. . .you guys forgot that there was a time when christians killed and maimed atheist for their own beliefs? now the table is gradually turning. . . deluded goons. . . .keep on whining, there was a time when George Bush senior said that he doesn't think that atheist should be considered as  real citizens of the united states and he said it when he was president. . . now that time has passed. no american president can ever make that kind of declaration ever again. . .democracy is what is keeping christianity in check in the developed world. . . imagine america being ruled by goons like pastor Robinson or the late Jerry farewell. . . . deluded fools keep on whining. . . . there is nothing that atheist will do that christians have not done before. . . . 

toshmann:
the end is really near, you cant pray in public schools, marriages are being re-defined, abortion is now normalcy. na wa o. islam is spreading in europe like wild fire. europe is scared sh-t by the rise of islam and the decline of xtainity. i tire o

deluded goons you have forgotten that jesus told some of his listeners that he will come during their life time and generation? what about paul the founder of the chrstians faith? he also thought that jesus was gong to come during his life time , keep waiting for the end deluded goons. . . .what is this myth that europeans are scared sh-t by the rise of islam? i live in europe and i can tell you that europe is becoming more secular on a daily basis, in fact europe is the place where people come to lose their faiths and beliefs in the ideas, imaginations and mythologies of ancient  jews, arabs, indains, chinese etc. europe is the place where people come to lose their faiths in religions. . . most atheist afrcans i know moslems and christians lost their faiths here in europe.  i know a lot of  moslems that became atheist after staying here in finland for some time. . . . .check out the council of ex muslims where is it located?

will the present day jews living in israel most of which do not believe in jesus go to heaven?

tudor:
@tonye Hmmm, first they say if a baby dies he'll go to heavn cuz he has no control over his action, but d bible says 'we're all born with sin'
now a child born with a defective brain no capability of reasoning grows up and matures and dies,guess he died a sinner right?
As 4 sins of d fathers, thats plain stupid,your father did something b4 u wer evn concievd,now you're born and you go mad cuz your father messd up and i'm sure d father lived a long happy life.BULLSHIT.
When re we going to stop attributing evrything to d spiritual, sometime ago  in teaching hosp a perfectly healthy man collapsd and died,his wife was telling we students dat d pastor said his people wer after her hubby and they've killd him.we did an autopsy and found out d man and an embolus flowing inside only to cause a blockage leading to death, wake up abeg!

the day that africans will stop attributing everything to the super natural is the day that almost everybody in that continent will die. . . . .we are just to fearful. . .in fact we are the most fearful people on earth. . . .

KunleOshob:
@Post
The problem with most religious belief systems especially christianity which i am very familiar with is that over the years man as corrupted the true essence of the religion for their own benefit and to manipulate and control other men. (jeremiah 8:8-10)

The bible as we know it today was not available during the time of jeremiah. . . . jeremiah was talking about some of the jewish scriptures. . . not the bible and by the way the jews do not believe in the christian bible. . .

Even the bible as been distorted by men, however this does not not take away the fact that there is a God and that he has revealed himself to manking in several ways. I became more convinced of my christian beliefs when i read thru the new testament, [b]the gospel there can only be truely divinely inspired and certainly not what a mere mortal man would come up with.

what are you talking about here? are all the contradictions(most of their stories cancel each other out) and wrong portrayal of history in the found in the gospels also divinely inspired? is there any thing that jesus has said that other gods or prophets of other gods have not said? love thy neighbor as thy self which is one of the greatest sayings of jesus was said over 1000 years by buddah before the writers of the gospels said that jesus said it. . . . .

it also left me very disenchanted with the church who over the years have distorted the gospels and used it to extort others(today's churches are totally different from the churches established by the apostles in the new testament). I suggest you take time out to study the books of the new testament well i am quite certain God would reveal something to you. Forget church practises and doctrines just let the holy spirit inspire you thru the bible.

is it the same holy spirit that speaks to donnie or huberility, pepeye on nairaland that also speaks to davidylan, osisi, lady, sirjohn and bobbyf? if it is then why do they always
spend their discussions vehemently arguing and disagreeing with each other? why the very strong disagreements amongst believers who all claim to hear their message or interpretation from the holy spirit? is it the same holy spirit that ministers to pastor adeboye and prophet tb joshua? if yes then why are they fighting with each other?

Jeremiah 8:8-10:
8How can you say, We are wise, and we have the written law of the Lord [and are learned in its language and teachings]? Behold, the truth is, the lying pen of the scribes has made of the law a falsehood (a mere code of ceremonial observances).(A)
    9The wise men shall be put to shame; they shall be dismayed and taken [captive]. Behold, they have rejected the word of the Lord, and what wisdom and broad, full intelligence is in them?

    10Therefore will I give their wives to others and their fields to those who gain possession of them; for everyone, from the least even to the greatest, is given to covetousness (is greedy for unjust gain); from the prophet even to the priest, everyone deals falsely.

jeremiah was talking about events during his life time not the bible as you will like to have us believe. . . .

the structure and function of human consciousness allowed for no survival of human consciousness of bodily death. I say this because the proponents of heaven and hell, begin to talk about heaven or hell which are at the core of christianity and islam,they must first overcome the arguments as to the extreme unlikelihood of survival after death in the first place. we know that a child's consciousness increases with time, so will a 5 year old boy who died in this world wake up as an adult in heaven? will a child who was born with mental illness and lost consciousness of his environment suddenly become conscious when he dies? i watch a documentary on the discovery world where a guy had an accident when he was 7 and became brain dead till he died at the age of 32, will he suddenly become aware of his environments in either heaven or hell? as i aforementioned the structure and function of the human consciousness does not allow for survival of human consciousness after bodily death those that keep talking about heaven and hell are yet to prove to us beyond reasonable doubt that there is a part of human consciousness that survives bodily death. . . . .all we are left with are different conjectures, myths, false assumptions and lies. . . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
Good question. Have you ever thought why we still have dirty people on earth, even after the invention of soap and detergents? Jesus' paid the price for all our sins and until we begin to appropriate them to ourselves by faith alone we will continue to wallow in our sins just as a dirty man who refuses to use soap or detergent to bath or wash his clothes respectively.

poor analogy. . . the fact that there is soap or detergent in the world doesn't mean that every body can afford it or it is free for every body. . . you need to have money to buy it first. . . the bible says that jesus died for the sins of everybody. . . what sins did jesus die for. . .and why is there still sin after jesus is said to have died for the sin of all men? soap and detergents are not free for every body. . . .

OLAADEGBU:
The blood group of Jesus was O, haven't you heard the song O the blood of Jesus.

On a serious note the blood type of Jesus was PRECIOUS (1 Peter 1:18-19).
It was the precious blood of Jesus, the blood of God that was shed to pay for the eternal penalty of mankind.  It was only this type of blood that could pay for the sins of mankind.  Have you been to Jesus for His cleansing Power?  There is Power in the blood of the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world.

even when i was a christain i have never really thought about this, the general christian argument is that jesus came and died for our sins, i just want to know what sin it is. . . .if the power of the lamb(jesus) has taken away the sins of the world why then is there still sin in the world?

MrCrackles:
It is good for pastors to earn good pay


but NOT good to steal tithes or straffle congregation members to part with excessive money to fund thier own flamboyant lifestyle!

offering to the church is part of the christian belief so kini big deal? the pastor did not just sit and tell the people to give them money for nothing. . .the pastors offered services, their motivational speeches are not for free are they? pastors are like therapist people who have problems(marital, financial, behavioural etc) go to their churches to hear uplifting messages. . . . the pastors are satisfying a need and the people pay them willingly or unwillingly for their services, pastors have to appeal to some fear or anxiety that exist in the human nature of their church members all the time, they have to keep striking that chord and strirring up the emotional vurnerablities that they know exist amongst the people. . . .pastors spend day and night going through the bible to look for passages that will form a coherent and uplighting message that will stirr up the emotions and weaknesses of their church members to give to their congregation all the time, do u think it's easy? the main reason why people go to church is to hear uplifting and hopeful teachings. . .if the bible is clear and easy to understand most chrisatians will definately fellowship at home, no need to go and meet up with ur friend in church if u know u can go and meet them at home because some people do go to church to meet up with one another. . . .pastors spend time and money preparing the motivational messages they give to their congregation which is quite gruelling

people spend millions on marriage counselling, finacial advice experets and rehabilation centers etc. . . .churchs are just like rehabiltation centers where you hear messages that will uplift and give you hope in life with the touch of god in it and also promise you that things will get better in the after life. . .pastors spend time and money preparing for their motivational speeches and advice so there is nothing wrong when they get money back. . .if people don't give money to pastors they will give to marriage counsellors, finacial experts or other counsellors for advice or uplifting messages. . . some might even drink with the money so what is wrong in giving pastors since pastors are satisfying a need?(emotional need) business is business no hard feelings. . . .if you think it is easy go and open a church without doing your homework and see if any body will come there. . . .

lucabrasi:
maybe the question is this,what is the going salary for the c.e.o of a company making 4.5 million in profit a year at least compared to what pastor mathew is earning?[/b]bearing in mind that all the tax free noise they are making is only 1.3million which the church can pay with ease without affecting the pastor's salary.

[b]also,while the "air head footballers"are running around the field to make 100k a week,pastor mathew is embarking on years of research to write best selling books,vcds,cds e.t.c which is where the bulk of his money comes from. while your footballers are running around,he is having sleepless nights busy drafting speeches,articles e.t.c and travelling round the world delivering speeches which he is being paid hansomely for,
im sure no one is saying he should turn over all the proceeds he made from his own intelligence and sweat over to the church just because it is a charity??
we should also be aware that  HE IS NOT IN CONTROLL OF THE CHURCHES FINANCES,THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES ARE, this is a law governing charities in the united kingdom and cannot be side stepped in any way!

he is not the cause of the present decline in the church of england,and rather than letting petty jelousy,insitutional racism e.t.c becloud their collective reasoning,they should sit down and work with him and other pentecostal churches to draw their people back to GOD like the oral roberts,kenneth hagin ,j osteen e.t.c of america have done sucessfully

kini big deal? the guy is doing his good works. . . so where is the beef? i don't understand why people feel pastors are not suppose to earn good pay. . . . . its ok for politicians, actors, musicians and business executives to earn good pay but not pastors?

the video is a perfect evidence that christianity is perpetuated by fear as some one already noted.

@ poster if you feel that your coming out against your beliefs will cause ripples between you and your family then it's better you keep it to your self. . . family is very important. . . .when all else fails your family can at least be reliable. . . .

Truth11:
Mazaje: Are you serious about God of the Bible or just interested in picking up controversies. Have you already concluded negatively about Jesus and triune God of the Bible?

i am serious about arguments or postulations that make sense. . . . .

I would lovingly advice you put all your questions directly to the author (pray to Jesus in a quite place and reverently), it will serve two purposes: 1) you will come to know that he lives 2)he is the one to satisfy all such queries, because he decided to do what he thought best and is best placed to provide the answers and he said "ask and it shall be given unto you, seek and you shall find. . . ".

i don't believe in jesus but lets assume for the sake of this discussion that i do, do i need to pray to him to know that he lives? there are so many christians that have asked and nothing has been giving to them, so many have seek and found nothing. . .

another thing, the name of the God of the Bible is "I AM WHO I AM" and he doesnt take advice from anybody, and more so from his creation on what, when and how to do what he likes! hope that is ok with you!

you have not really been reading your bible because there was a time in the bible when the biblegod wanted to kill some people for trivial reasons and moses adviced him to reconsider because it wasn't a good thing to do and he reconsidered and spared their lives. . .

He is omnipotent God, and he has revealed himself to all creation and he will prove it on the day of the judgement. The question should not be "whether his actions and words were right or wrong", it should rather be "how can I be saved and receive this God".

how did the biblegod reveal himself to all of creation? a perfect god that wants to reveal himself to humans would certainly not leave fallible humans to deliver an endless plethora of confused and contradictory messages, it sounds more sensible that a god that wants people to het to know him would deliver the message himself, directly, to each and every one of us, and with such clarity as the most brilliant being in the universe could accomplish. people all over the world would all hear him out and shout. so obvious and well-demonstrated would his message be. it would be spoken to everybody in exactly those terms we would all understand and we would all agree on what that message was. even if we rejected it, we would all at least admit to each other, "yes, that's what this god fellow told me." but that is not the case. . . . .

How can a weak man question the powers of God and his working?!! Man is so weak, helpless and clueless that he cant even have dominion over his own body for which he lives and can even die for it. God said you cant even turn your grey hair into black and black hair into grey. Can you do this simple exercise with all human scientific advancements available to you?

do you know morgans pomade? it turns grey hair black go and try it out. . . . you can bleach you hair with chemicals and make it grey. . . . .

I would say any person who would read the Bible quitely, reverently and pray to God and his son Jesus, will be relieved from this burden of confusion which you and scores of others are carrying daily on their shoulders. I too had this burden of sin and confusion sometime ago, but I am free, praise God!

Blessings,

confusion you call it eh? so because i do not not come to jesus and share the christian world view, therefore, i must be a wicked liar, i must be so deluded by sin that I am all but clinically insane, an irrational madman suffering some evil psychosis eh? you talk about me being confused because of my lack of belief but what christianity as a religion and christians as a people i believe are the most confused bunch i know, why is it that believers of the christain faith strongly disagree with each other? it is a fact that believers in the christain religion can't agree on the content of their god's message or desires but you say that i am confused? is the biblegod telling them different things? why all the confusion and disagreements? i was once a christain like you but i left because like every other religion men created it. . . . .

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=262462.msg3741013#msg3741013 date=1239951986]@ bawomolo and mazaje

You guys are letting them.[/quote]how are we letting them?  i just got banned and my post was deleted on an islamic website i frequent because i posted this topic and wrote a few commentary on it. . . . . . the slaves of allah are really dangerous. . . .

if the bible were the direct words of an omnipotent god then he would inspire the translators of the bible in the same manner that he would inspire the original writers? i say this because there are a lot of mistranslations, mistakes,and editing that have happened to make the english bible different in some places and passages from the original text. if the bible is the word of an omnipotent being then why would there be more than one english language version? there are over 88 different english translations of the bible. the translation should really be as important as the original text since the vast majority of people cannot read the language in which the bible was originally written.you would think that an omnipotent being would have done it in a similar to the way he presented the ten commandments, by calling one of his prophets (why havent we had any of them in the past 2000 years?) up to a mountain and just given it to him to give to the people with a bunch of thunder and lightning.Instead, he waited at least several thousand years of humanity allowing certain unknown scribes to put stuff down in scrolls here and there.then several hundred years after sending himself down to sacrifice himself, he inspires constantinople to convene a council to put it all together. why not just have one scribe writing, writing, writing, since god was essentially just dictating? why a council voting on what is to be included? was it always a unanimous vote? otherwise the ones who voted for books that didnt make it were not "inspired." so again why a council?

the slaves of allah are trying to scheme out a fast one. . . . . deluded fools. . . . .

noetic:
thou pathetic atheist. . . .as far as u are concerned u have probably said something intelligent, right?

YES, by His stripes we are healed. Jesus is not an alternative to medicine, medicine is a tool in HIS hands. when a situation defies medical knowledge HE sure steps in, if and when called upon.

you deluded goon what have you said that has made sense? by his stripes you are healed yet christians spend billions annually buying drugs, doing surgery and seeking medication for their ailments? why not carry the bible and read the verses that says by his stripes you are healed all day long when you guys fall sick? if you are truly healed by his stripes why do you go to hospitals and take man made drugs to cure you from your illness? by his stripes you are healed indeed deluded goon. . . . .

some times our prayers don't get answered like we want, there could be a million reason for that.

jesus says all you need is to have faith and ALL you ask he will give you, that is the only condition in the bible, all you need is to have faith any other thing you say is your own opinion because it is not found any where in the bible.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it" John 14 vs 12-14

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you. Matthew 17:20

Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

this is what the bible says and the only condition is belief if you believe the bible says anything you ask in prayers it will be giving to you. but is that the reality that we see?

but whatever the reason, it is said somewhere in His word. Other times, it is because we don't know how to pray as we should or what to ask for.

all this meaningless apologetics the bible says that all you need is to believe and you will get ANYTHING that you ask for if only you believe. . . . . .

However in this case, I recommend that u go into a praying and thanks giving mood for 3 days.
you have just 2 prayer points, they are :
a). Forgiveness and abstinence from sin.
b). Holy Spirit pray for me and my mum.

millions have done this nonsense that you typed here which by the way is not even in the bible but they still ended up dead. . . . the bible says that people should call unto the church elders when they are sick to pray for them and they will get their healing. . . back in 2002 i drove a friends father to the church and the pastor and church elders did as it was written in the bible only for the guy to die the next day. . . .i know people that went to revivals came back got prayed for by pastors, bishops etc but only to die shortly afterwards. . . . .

that He hasn't healed ur mum does not mean He is still not the Master Healer. When the Holy Spirit prays for u, He prays directly against the source of the problem (which could be sin, spiritual attack or whatever), cos He searches and sees all things.

this are just you meaningless and nonsense apologetics nothing like this is written in the bible. . . in what part of the bible does it say that the holy spirit prays for people? you are a complete lunatic. . . .how can can the biblegod be the master healer when he does not even heal the people that call on his name day and night? i believe that you know pastor robinson of the 700 club, he claims to be a faith healer by telling people to touch their television set or the part of their body that is sick while he prays for them for healing but when he had prostrate cancer he didn't pray for healing but rushed to the hospital for surgery why didn't he call unto jesus name for healing or recite the bible verses that says that by his stripes he is healed? delude goons. . . chris oyahkilome's wife despite all his miracle healing and what not took his wife to the hospital when she was sick, yet we still have deluded goons going to him for prayers and healing. . . . .

I believe u will have ur testimony sooner than u think.

if her mum goes to the hospital and gets proper medication and treatment she will have a testimony very soon but if she stays at home and does all the nonsense you typed about praying and thanks giving for 3 days and calling the holy ghost abi na holy wizard to pray for her or come to her aide, her condition will only get worse. deluded goon. . . . .

Thor:
@platinumnk

Something that does not exist (God) can not help your mother, medical science can and your support will help her more than anything,

God is not going to heal her as he does not exist except in the mind of weak individuals!

Make sure your mum gets good medical attention and don't rely on pretend beings for help  

I wish her all the best and lets hope she gets better soon  

christians are quick to say that jesus says that by his stripes they are healed but they are quick to go to the hospitals when they get sick why not stay at home without going to hospital and taking drugs and pray only to jesus for healing since it is writing in the bible that they are healed by the stripes of jesus?. . . . . i hope her mum gets good treatment and get better. . . . .

platinumnk:
thats horrible, but i admit i dont pray as often as i should on account to my mother's illness. i believe she should have been healed long time ago, and stop suffering in pain daily. i feel like if God cant touch my mom, who am I to ask for anything?  I'm on my own.

prayer as i said is just asking for help for things that are beyond your control mostly, if there is a doctor that will perform treat your mum and make her recover from her illness immediately i know you will take her to him and let him treat her. . . .if you read the bible or the koran there are places where the biblegod and allah specifically said that they will heal does who call on their names when they are sick. but is that what you see happening? if you mum gets better you will give your god the credit but what if she doesn't (i am just giving an example here, i hope she gets better) you will still explain it away and provide an excuse for your god for not healing her, either way prayer answers nothing and your god gets all the credit in all cases whether you get what you want or not. . . . . it is all in the mind. . . this apply to all religions. . . .

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=260194.msg3736508#msg3736508 date=1239876794]Ah. Now I understand you a little better. Okay.

Well, you can't take the spirit to the lab for empirical testing. Personal experience is all there is,all there can be. You want some sort of 'communal experience' where we relate to God as a group or tribe or country? You'll find that more convincing? I can't answer for muslims that cry on reading the Koran! Though I might be able to relate if I knew which part of the koran made them  cry.How is my own experience 'better' than theirs? I'm not sure there's a basis for comparison or 'rating' of spiritual experiences on some Good, Better,Best scale. I think what you're saying is, which is the genuine experience, since we hold different beliefs?How can I possibly know that?[/quote]I like your sincererity. . . . people's beliefs are all a part their culture and environment. . . . most of the christains i know here in finland believe in evolution because of the level of education and the culture with which they grow up with, but most of the christians in nigeria do not believe in evolution because of the culture, tradition and level of awareness that exist in nigeria. the christians here do not believe in miracles like the christians in nigeria do, if a pastor tells people in his church that he travelled for more 300km in his car on an empty thank or had the ability to make an adult person grow taller because he needed to see him speak no body will ever go to his church again, but we have millions in nigeria that attend RCCG despite pastor adeboye saying that he travelled over 300km on an empty tank. and made a person grow taller just because he wanted to see him speak because nigrerians have been brought up with the belief of not asking questions and beling in things even if they do not make sense, most especially if they are being told by any constituted authority. the christians in here in finland and the christians in nigeria all believe in jesus but all of them relate to jesus the way that that is acceptable to their culture, traditions and evironment. . .you don't get to hear about demons, witches and wizards here in finland amongst the christians here, people don't blame witches and wizards for their misfortunes here at all, in fact most of the christians here do not believe in witches, demons, gloom and doom, but in nigeria because of the backwardness, sheer ignorance, high level of illiteracy and total decay of the system most people have to believe in witches, wizards, demons and blame their misfortunes on them. i once attended church here to meet up with a friend and the message is nothing compared to what is obtainable in nigeria, just some simple words of advice from the bible and some simple references to the way of life that is acceptable in finaland and that was it, but in nigeria all you hear is money, prosperity, demons, witches, moslems(depending on which part of nigeria you live in), end of the world, money, more money, more more money, gloom and doom. . . . the culture and ethics of every society is what makes their beliefs and religion. the islam that is practiced in pakistan is not the same with the one that is practiced in norway or france. . . .

As for the Bible you have to remember human beings wrote it. And it was revised and edited many times,all sorts of stuff were added to it.Unintended translation errors also abound. The teaching about hell I find a bit confusing.'Gehenna' or hell is a place where the wicked are punished in fires that burn day and night and never ends. But Gehenna also happens to be an actual place on the outskirts of Israel at the time, a huge refuse dump where fires were kept burning day and night, where refuse and the bodies of animals and dead criminals were thrown,where the 'worm quencheth not'. Until one actually gets something close to the original,untainted material I see no point in arguing scripture I didn't write, and verses that might be the true work of the original author, or something a translator or editor added because it conformed to his ideas of right and wrong and justice and punishment.

human's wrote the bible, the koran, the hindu text and all the books refelcts their minds, cultures and level of thought in all their sayings. if you look at the old testament you will see a VERY great evolution has taken place with the new testament. the old testament god grew with humanity, changed his ethics and behaviour completely. in the old testament we have god sewing cloths for people, eating or tasting their scarifice, living with people inside a box, advocating sagregation, slaverly, rape, wars, accepting human scarifice, giving out very tribal laws and commandements etc. . . .the old testament god told people to share and enjoy the booty of war, that is because that is how the people do their things back then, when you fight war you take away booty, loot and steal the properies of your enemies that is why we have the old testament good avocating the same thing, the present day israeli defence forces can not go into gaza or lebanon when fighting a war with them and loot their properties because our moral standard now is above that of the time of moses, slavery was advocated by the bible god because it was acceptable by the people so their god has to reflect their way of life. . . .if you read the old testament  thunderstorms, earthquakes, plagues, eclipses and floods were all attributed to the anger or punishment of god because the people knew nothin about them. . . . we now know that all things things have very natural explanations hence very little people in the civilized world believe that natural disasters are a punishment from any god. . . .every god represents the hearts and minds of the people that created him/her, the new testament writers created a god that was supposed to be universally acceptable out of the old tstament god, hence the continious revision and editing of the bible to accomodate most cultures and ways of life of the people lving in the world. 

They say God is a God of the Jews only?Jews wrote most of the bible, and their ideas'll naturally be influenced by their environment and history and culture, and the prevalent attitudes of their day. I don't think God focused on the Jews and ignored the rest of humanity. Perhaps if one were to compare the religious histories of most tribes some picture might emerge.  I find the story of Akhnenaten fascinating. I first came across him in a book on Moses by Freud and read up on him . He was an Egyptian pharaoh in antiquity who encountered a 'being of great brightness', so bright he named him 'Aten' So profound was their encounter that he changed his own name to reflect this god's. He built a new capital, and named the city after the 'Bright Being'. He was consumed with zeal for this being and wrote verse upon verse about him, which read exactly like old testament psalms and hymms. At first he tried to reconcile Aten with the other Egyptian gods, but he soon earned the enmity of the priests of other Egyptian gods by declaring Aten the 'supreme being' and 'only true god', and insisting other gods in Egypt must go. Sound familiar?

Perhaps he was partial to them but I don't think God was a 'God of the Jews only'.

the old testament god is the god of the jews alone, he punishes people for marrying outside the jewish tribe. . . . the jews created their god hence you have him advocating their way of life and traditions. . . . zeus was created by the greeks and i believe that if you follow his teachings you will see that it reflects the culture and traditions of the greeks. . . . .all the ancient eygptian gods reflected the culture and traditions of the ancient egyptians in all their comamandements. . . . . The god of the old testament was the god of the jews only he even lived with them in a wooden box according to the bible. . . . .allah started of as the god of the arabs before he was later transformed into a universal god, arabic is still the only language he understands. . . . . .

@ dalaman

more vaseline to your elbows abeg. . . .

@ davidylan

how many times will you change your positions? how do you want people to believe you when you have changed your positions so many times on just a single issue? but you are quick to call others charlatans? deluded idiot. . . . .mark says that jesus was crucified by the 3rd hour(9am) john said that he was not crucified until after the 12th hour, how then did you come to the conclusion that they both agree that he was was brought to his sentencing around 6am? as dalaman pointed out all you did was plaigiarize the work of another apologist without even going through it to make sure that it agrees with your previous statements, make sure that the work you pliagiarize agrees with your previous statements or positions so that you wouldn't be caught changing positions like a headless chicken. . . . . . .

busted . . . . . . .

she is my customa

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=260194.msg3734089#msg3734089 date=1239820436]Perhaps.
Perhaps an illusory 'God' takes the credit for answered prayer, and we fabricate excuses when there's no response.
Maybe it's all in the mind.
And maybe there's a real God who does answer prayer.

That everyone's prayer cannot be answered isn't surprising; there are millions of people on the planet with their own agendas. And one man's answered prayer might translate into another's request-refusal. Couple that with the fact that most of us are self-centred, with most of our praying focusing on ourselves and our needs virtually ALL the time. We might quickly mumble some insincere prayer for others, to feel more Christian. But within moments we're happy to be back on familiar ground,praying for ourselves.If God chooses to not take part in our self-adulation, who's to blame him? I don't know how prayer works but I have experienced some things in the past few months and know for a fact that God exists. Two incidents I still find incredible,but won't mention them.Men may have added to the Bible but they didn't add everything. And the Bible does say God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek him. If you seek him, you will find.[/quote]i thought jesus said that all you need is to believe and once you have faith anything you ask for will be answered through prayers? faith is the only thing required. . . .

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it

I don't care about who answers the prayers of muslims and Hindis. I think God loves ALL his creation and has abandoned none.That's not for me to worry about. He will save many,not just some narrow, self-righteous fraction of humanity. He is more than able to save, and he's not bound to act according to our standards of justice and our interpretations of the Bible. Who he saves, how he saves, who he judges, how he judges are, who he answers,how he answers are entirely up to him. Go and ask him yourself if you have questions about those.

except that your own interpretation sounds contrary to what the bible is saying. . . .the biblegod clearly does not love everybody. . . .moslems will feel offended if you tell them that jesus is the one that answers their prayers. . . . .but they still have personal experinces and testimonies of answered prayers. . . . . .

I'm surprised at how presumptious many atheists are. You don't believe in God but have somehow come to believe Christians owe you explanations for everything. They owe you no such thing. I find it interesting that, on a Christian forum, there are few threads where they can unite and fellowship in peace. Naw, their energies are taken up fighting and debating and explaining and defending and apologising for their beliefs.
Interesting.

when you tell christians that you do not believe in their god the disparage, ridicule and treat you badly, i have had so many experiences so why not ridicule and show them how inconsistent their arguments and beliefs are. . . . .

You know something? I read a passage in John and was moved to tears at how compassionate Christ is. The guy is too cool for this world. After a while I read the same passage,as if I were an atheist. The same passage I'd cried over seemed unconvincing,because I was looking for a lie. I spent a long time wondering about that, and had to conclude that, when you read the Bible, what you see is who you are.

personal experience again. there are million of muslims out there that read the koran and cry bitterly because when the read the koran what they see is who they really are, to them there is no truth and reality that does not exist in the koran every thing the see happening in the world and life in general they see it in the koran. . . i have seen many people read the koran and cry some publicly. . . . because of the "truth" and "reality" they see in it. . .how is your own experience better than theirs?

davidylan:
I already said that 1000 times before . . . you've not been reading posts before ejaculating like a fool. You dont know anything about Roman time, you've simply copied the unverified work of another and built an argument/sorry copied an argument on it.

must you always show that you are a cretin? what do you know about roman time apart from the work that you shamelessly plagiarized?  is the work that you plagiarized verified? idoit. . . .

I asked you and your co-traveller (toneyb) why John makes mention of a 7th hour which doesnt exist in Jewish time keeping . . . none of you bothered to come up with a response. Perhaps those you copy from havent addressed that issue yet.

and what makes you think mark wasn't using the roman time too? is there no 3rd hour in the roman time? 

davidylan:
what a stupid blowhard . . .

1. i didnt copy or plagiarize from anywhere so i wonder where you got the idea from.

stupid liar any body that goes through this website will see that you copied the apologist work word for word. . . .

http://www.workmenforchrist.org/Bible/BC_Jesus_Nets.html

2. Here is what i said (emphasis mine) - however Romans counted time like we did so when John says "about the 6th hour) he literarily means . . . the 6th hour from 12 am . . . i.e about 6 am.

Here is what you copied (as usual, since you have no mind of your own and cant analyse your own alleged "argument" - We see that the the Romans divided each day into 24 hours, and they assigned 12 to the daytime and 12 to the night. These did not run from midnight to midnight as our modern method of timekeeping does, but from sunrise to sunrise.

and i also showed you how the romans broke down their time according to each hour and that the 6th hour runs from around 11am - 12 noon based on the roman time be it winter or summer(by the way that is not even a religious website its a website that talk about ancient roman history). . . . .i notice that you sometimes copy from wikipedia no? are the works you copy and paste from wikipedia yours? idiot. . . . .

Essentially the same way we also divide each day into 24 hrs . . . essentially the way we also assign roughly 12hrs to daylight and 12 hrs to the night . . .

So where was the error? Besides i pointed out why the Roman 6th hour could not have been at 12 noon if ALL GOSPELS agree that Christ died around 3-5pm that day. If Pilate was just presenting Christ at 12 noon . . . they would have had barely over 1 hr to take him to golgotha, prep him for crucifiction and perform the crucifiction proper, break their bones, prepare a crown of thorns, write an inscription on his cross . . . if we factor in the 3 hr period of darkness recorded by Matthew, Mark and Luke.

and i showed you from the table that the roman 6th hour was around 11am-12noon. the problem is that the gospel writers do not even know how to write a coherent story. . . .they seem all to confused and they clearly are not writing based on a coherent narrative but mixed imaginations. . . .

Besides if we use Jewish time used by Matthew, Luke and others . . . Christ was hanging on the cross for almost 6hrs before he died.

When you start actually debating this based on your own intellect then we can really thrash the issue . . . at this moment you're simply copying and pasting the arguments of others . . . it makes you really sound thick and contrived.

look who is talking after copying and pasting the work of another person you want to turn around and accuse me? . . . . .i am still waiting for you to tell me what really happened at the tomb. . . .

davidylan:
bla bla bla bla . . . what else do you expect from blowhards?

i thought you promised to answer some of my questions? do you now have your tail between your legs because i exposed your own plagiarism? you copied some one else's apologetics word for word and claimed it to be your own stupid hypocrite. . . . .

davidylan:
No contradiction there at all if you bothered to study further instead of running around like a headless chicken . . . the clear difference is that while Mark wrote in Jewish time, John wrote in Roman time. Now according to the Jews . . . the 3rd hour was a 3 hr time frame between 6-9am (our time) . . . however Romans counted time like we did so when John says "about the 6th hour) he literarily means . . . the 6th hour from 12 am . . . i.e about 6 am. About the exact same time period Mark also says Christ was crucified.

the problem is that you and the apologist whose work you shamelessly plagiarized and tried to take credit for are liars.


From the Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

We see that the the Romans divided each day into 24 hours, and they assigned 12 to the daytime and 12 to the night. [b]These did not run from midnight to midnight as our modern method of timekeeping does, but from sunrise to sunrise. [/b]This effectively means that the length of the Roman hour varied according to the season, so that during the summer solstice around June 21st when the period of daylight is considerably longer than the night, the twelve hours assigned to the daytime would each have to be 1 hour and 16 minutes long, while conversely, during the short days of the winter solstice around December 21st, each daylight hour would be only 44 minutes long.

There were only two days during the entire year when the Roman day contained hours of exactly 60 minutes. These dates occurred during the equinoxes, when the length of the day is exactly equal to that of the night; the vernal equinox occurred every year around March 21st, and the autumnal equinox about September 21st.

This fluid method of timekeeping was perfectly natural to your average Roman, who was not governed by the same rigid schedules prevalent in our modern technological society and did not carry either a wristwatch or a FiloFax.

Table of Daylight Hours at the Solstices
Winter Solstice
Hora from to
I. prima 7:33 8:17 a.m.
II. secunda 8:17 9:02 a.m.
III. tertia 9:02 9:46 a.m.
IV. quarta 9:46 10:31 a.m.
V. quinta 10:31 11:15 a.m.
VI. sexta 11:15 12:00 noon (6th hour of the day)
VII. septima 12:00 12:44 p.m.
VIII. octava 12:44 1:29 p.m.
IX. nona 1:29 2:13 p.m.
X. decima 2:13 2:58 p.m.
XI. undecima 2:58 3:42 p.m.
XII. duodecima 3:42 4:27 p.m.

Summer Solstice
Hora from to
I. prima 4:27 5:42 a.m.
II. secunda 5:42 6:58 a.m.
III. tertia 6:58 8:13 a.m.
IV. quarta 8:13 9:29 a.m.
V. quinta 9:29 10:44 a.m.
VI. sexta 10:44 12:00 noon (6th hour of the day)
VII. septima 12:00 1:15 p.m.
VIII. octava 1:15 2:31 p.m.
IX. nona 2:31 3:46 p.m.
X. decima 3:46 5:02 p.m.
XI. undecima 5:02 6:17 p.m.
XII. duodecima 6:17 7:33 p.m.

Table adapted from Daily Life in Ancient Rome by Jerome Carcopino pp.167-8.

http://www.roman-britain.org/calendar.htm

so where did you get this lie that you just wrote.

quote from daviylan: Now according to the Jews . . . the 3rd hour was a 3 hr time frame between 6-9am (our time) . . . however Romans counted time like we did so when John says "about the 6th hour) he literarily means . . . the 6th hour from 12 am . . . i.e about 6 am. About the exact same time period Mark also says Christ was crucified.

where did you get that lie from? idiot, keep on lying for jesus. . . . . .the 3rd hour from the jewish time runs from 6-9am while the 6th hour from the roman time depending on wether it is summer or winter runs from about 11am-12noon. john says jesus was crucified after the 6th hour. so where did you get your own lies from? idiot. . . . . .

To make things clearer . . . look at something brother John writes here - John 4:52 Then enquired he of them the hour when he began to amend. And they said unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. But there is NO 7th hour in Jewish time! There IS a 7th hour in Roman time! A clear indication John was counting his own time quite different from Mark's.

to keep you in your delusion how do you know that mark was not talking about the roman time too? is there no 3rd hour in the roman time too? stupid goon. . . . .by the way what really happened at the tomb because the gospel writers seem to be more confused than you are? seems you have lost your steam and have ur tail between your legs. . . . .