₦airaland Forum

mujahid1339:
the story of Abraham and Ishmael building the Kaaba wasn't invented nor did it start with the Holy Prophet Muhammad(SAW),it has been part of Arab history all along

Part of Arab history or Arab mythology?

Why do the Jewish scholars not make mention of this 'fact'?

Is there any reference to Abraham being in Mecca made by non-Muslim or non-Arab authors?

hensben:
SS governors na crook the be except oshiomhole and their people cry of our oil, hold your political leaders responsible they wouldn't.

Does Cross River count as SS?

Because neither Imoke nor Duke can be considered crooks.

Attah was a thief surrounded by more thieves but Akpabio has put his plans into action and AKS looks very different from what it was before, much improved and significantly better than Delta State in terms of infrastructure.

themilanway:
This is an evidence of a serious government and country whoose judicial system is running freely like water from a tap.

To think that a Nigerian court insisted that Ibori has no case to answer in any capacity shows that Nigeria is a jungle.

It was a court in Asaba that decided that he has not guilty on all charges (all 170 charges).

He then fled to Dubai and the Jonathan administration reopened the case against him (lest anyone forget).

The court in London found that there was insufficient evidence on the corruption charges, he pleaded guilty to money laundering, conspiring to defraud and obtaining a money transfer by fraud charges and was sentenced to 13 years.

Ariel20:
One is a clueless thief who foolishly stacks his investment (loot) abroad and has nothing to show for it in his own state,the other is a master strategist and has his investments here in Ngeria thereby creating job opportunities.
Understood?

Sad but true. Asaba is one of the worst cities in the SS and yet there are people in Delta State who proclaim this man a hero because he may have dashed them a few kobo.

I don't like Tinubu and I hope that one day he is held to account but at least he has used his ill-gotten money to develop his home state and not enrich a foreign nation as Ibori (amongst others) did.

ademega:
These are the people that will give this man serious problem. Who send him this kind of talk naw ? Too early for all thses .

Same as the claim that 1 naira will equal 1 us dollar.

The same as promising 5000 a month for the unemployed.

mujahid1339:
what sort of evidence,theres even no way of scientifically proven Abraham's existence.like Abuamam wrote
"we are talking of a single person over 2000 years ago, at a time when there was no birth/ marriage/ death certificates; and in pure wilderness".the best you can get is from his descendants themselves.obviously they must have had an account of who their own father was.

There are books and manuscripts that were written thousands of years ago. None of them have been found to record this Abraham figure.

People look to align themselves with great myths and prestige, just because someone claims to be of Abraham's lineage does not make it so - they too have no proof.

onetrack:
That's the whole problem right there. There is a lack of non-Islamic sources, either writing or archaeological, to corroborate the Islamic sources, virtually all of which were written down more than 150 years after the time in question.

My personal belief is that "Islam" was created over a period of a couple of centuries, and was expressly done so by the Arab rulers who wanted to redirect the beliefs of the people in their new empire away from locations in Persia (Zoroastrian religion) and the Byzantine Empire (Christianity) towards a place where they originated from (Arabia), so that they could not only have political credibility but also religious credibility. And so Islam was born, out of a mix of these religions + Judaism so that they could claim to be a continuation of the most ancient religious tradition in the region.

In my view it is similar to Christianity in this regards, as modern Christianity is largely a product of the politics of the late Roman Empire and not the actual life of Jesus himself (if he existed).

What you say makes a lot of sense but some people will refuse to acknowledge that religion has anything to do with power or politics.

Abuamam:
There was no thought of establishing a monotheistic religion at the time that pre-Islamic Arabs were narrating their genealogies. And there was nothing great about the Jews. They were a minority number of refugees. The Arabs did not see them as superior in any way.



There can be no attempt or likelihood of proving that Abraham built the Kaaba to an atheist. You have no book I can quote, and the time period involved permits no source that you will not reject. I would necessarily depend on Muslim narrations, which you would instantly deny.

It does not dismiss the possibility that a man called Ibrahim/ Abraham did build the Kaaba either. At best, you might say that you do not know. I, who believe in the truth of the Quran and hadith, have the belief that he did. To each his belief.

Kind of like those who believe that the American moon landing was all a staged hoax. There is no way to prove it to them; short of taking them to the moon to see the flags.

Goodnight.

The problem with relying on Islamic sources is that you ignore the non-Islamic sources. There were Arabs who were not Muslims and there were people in that region who were not Arabs who would have mentioned the Kaaba in their writings.

Abuamam:
The Arabs had these genealogies long before the era of the prophet (saw). You assume that this tracing of lineage started at the time of the prophet (saw). It did not. Had he given himself a fake jewish lineage unknown to the Arabs, they would have destroyed his credibility. The jews on the other hand, arrived in Arabia at most, a couple of hundred years before the prophet (saw). It is illogical to believe that the Jews; a repressed minority and refugres from the 2nd temple destruction; managed to impose fabricated lineages on the proud Arab tribes. Sort of like the few Yorubas in the East forcing the Igbos to trace all their lineages to Oduduwa.

These were events occurring in lands where almost no one could read or write. The importance of a figure like Abraham was not that outstanding around the 25th century BC. He was probably just a tribal leader called to prophethood, with a village of a few dozens at most. Hardly a personality you would expect to find recorded by ancient historians of that period (actually, there were no historians from that period).

They wouldn't need to be forced to do anything if their intention was to establish a supreme monotheistic religion. It is more likely that the Arabs sought to attach themselves to greatness than the Jews forcing their ideas upon anybody.

Alas, we have no proof either way. More theories.

And once again we come back to 'faith'.

None of this proves that Abraham built anything.

Abuamam:
Let us stay on the Abraham issue. I will still get back to your comment on the wrong places in the Quran; insha Allah.

Let me ask you these questions...

If Abraham did not exist, why did both the Hebrew and the Arab tribes independently invent him as a common ancestor? Remember that many large pre-Islamic tribal families traced their lineage back to him; and if the Arabs were meticulous about anything, it was their lineage. They killed each other relentlessly for family honour. Similarly, the OT seems to have compiled lineages exhaustively. How did they both invent a similar Abraham/ Ibrahim who had sons called Ismail, and Isaac; and whose sons were the fathers of Arabs and Hebrews respectively, along with long chains of children and grandchildren?
Remember that the Jews historicslly referred to the Arabs as Ishmaelites.
Why would the story go so far as to elaborate on Hajjar's journey, her claim over the Zammzam well etc, if it was all totally fictitious? What gain would have been derived?

There is no evidence to suggest that Arabs created the myth of Abraham independently, he was already in existence courtesy of the Jewish Torah (and most likely oral story telling). There is no proof that both groups formulated the ideas concurrently. Islam is the last of the Abrahamic religions and as such had a lot of written text from which to borrow.

The myth of Jesus was based upon the earlier myths of Mithras and that of Horus. No rational person would claim that the existence of a Horus myth is proof of Jesus. You would still need to establish reliable secondary sources for the myth of Horus. The same is true of Abraham, alas no such sources have been found for such an important figure.

Having a similar story does not make it genuine, especially when there is a significant time lapse between records.

nkemdi89:
How many nigerians do you think are privilege to eat balance diet or even eat balance diet ? Most of our staple foods are enrich with starch. The cheapest protein is beans how many family can afford to eat fresh vegetable everyday? Because someone is chubby or has extra doesn't make that person fat or unhealthy. You only know that through person body mass index

It does mean that they are unhealthy.

BMI is not even an appropriate indicator of health, there are athletes who would be classed as overweight even though they are the peak of health. Measuring body fat percentage and waist to chest ratio is far more revealing as to health than BMI.

Beans are an excellent source of protein, there is nothing wrong with carbohydrates and vegetables are not expensive. Fruit grows in abundance in Nigeria, again it is not expensive. Nigeria is not Niger, there is so much food in Nigeria, a lot of it grows wild - the excuse that it is expensive does not wash. It is evident that lack of food is not an issue for many Nigerians, the problem is knowing what to eat. Telling people that they are overweight because they are born with 'big bones' or making up another issue is irresponsible.

Your health is your greatest asset it should be above all things.

Abuamam:
We believe the evidence of our scriptures, so we know. Our scriptures are right about other things, so we believe them about this matter also, in the same way that we do not set out to prove every mathematical formula in a maths textbook, once we have accepted its worth. We do not ask you to believe, but you cannot ask us to disbelieve. Someone definitely built the Kaaba. We know him to be Abraham through our revelations. You may believe that a series of geological upheavals coincidentally piled stones on top of each other over billions of years to form the Kaaba... your choice. Your belief is as good for you as mine is to me. Or you may say you don't know, while our knowledge is set on a wider base of evidence than sight, smell and hearing. Deduction, reasoning also play a part.

Prayer time. BRB.

No one said that the Kaaba was not built by someone but to claim that it was Abraham when there is a lack of evidence of such a character makes no sense.

The Koran is also wrong about a number of things and has been proven dangerous in instances but those cases are oddly ignored. Just as the xtians ignore fallacies within their special book.

Abuamam:
Apart from the Quran and the hadith, speculative history is the best available. We are talking of a single person over 2000 years ago, at a time when there was no birth/ marriage/ death certificates; and in pure wilderness.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/features/world/asia/israel/abraham-text

There are other speculations like it. But this sums it up.

Yet when I asked scholars the question, "Was there ever a man called Abraham?" as often as not they were respectful (we can't disprove it) but convinced of the futility of trying to find a flesh-and-blood individual. "Abraham is beyond recovery," said Israel Finkelstein, a biblical archaeologist at Tel Aviv University. Without any proof of the patriarch's existence, the search for a historical Abraham is even more difficult than the search for a historical Jesus.

Another unproven historical figure but when all else fails the religious fall back on faith.

Why can they never say that they do not know?

nkemdi89:
From your writeup I can see you are a fan of skinny people but not every gal will be thin so you find yourself in a society mixed up with various body types they should deserve equal representation.

I am not a fan of bad habits and misinformation.

Nor do I believe that we should normalize poor health. We have people who are drunkards and people with serious emotional problems but we do not create dolls to commemorate them. Nor should we celebrate obesity with dolls to cater to young girls who may not realize the health implications of carrying excess weight.

I understand that there is a lot of bad advice out there when it comes to diet but that does not take away from the truth - there is nothing healthy about being fat.

Abuamam:
I know, because I have historical sources which you do not accept, because they have been passed down by Muslims. It was as well known in pre-Islamic Arabia as the stories of Alexander in Greek history. My mentioning the pyramids is just to show that you cannot limit my proof to only that which suits you.

It is like saying; "using only Grant's Anatomy textbook", prove that Buhari won the elections, because Grant's anatomy is the only book I trust."

Could you list your sources please for the Kaaba being built by Abraham.

Thanks.

Also sources that prove Abraham's existence.

Abuamam:
Who built the pyramids?

No one is claiming that Abraham built the pyramids or that they were built for the glory of Allah.

That is the difference.

If you said that you did not know I would accept that.

Abuamam:
SOMEONE built the Kaaba. You have not disproved that his name was Abraham either. My sources are not acceptable to you; being the Quran, hadith and pre-Islamic poets/ historians narrated by later Muslims. If you insist on Ptolemy saying "Abraham father of Ismail from Mesopotamia built a Kaaba in a land called Mecca" , I do not know how to get such evidence. There are little or no writings on the Kaaba before the prophet (saw) by western historians. However, wikipedia provides some scanty info by non muslim historians. Not enough to satisfy you though, since they also quote Muslim sources... as expected.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaaba

You want me to prove a negative?

I asked who built the Kaaba and I asked if anyone could prove that Abraham existed.

So far there is no evidence that Abraham existed.

An2elect2:
Sorry op, but they are not Christians.

What makes you say such a thing?

Abuamam:
Yes, but the majority of western-educated people who do not speak Arabic define Muslim as a follower of prophet Muhammad (saw). That was even implied in your question about Abraham (as). Muslim means anyone who submits to the Will of Allah and is monotheist. This includes Adam.

Yes. Muslims after the prophet Muhammad (saw) believe the Quran is the word of Allah. We also believe that other messages/ Books were sent with some of the other prophets (not all prophets though came with Scriptures). Over the times, these messages were corrupted and people incorporated sectional or personal interest themes into them, in order to give these themes Godly sanction. For this reason, Allah made the last Scripture (the Quran), incorruptible, by inculcating in the final set of Muslims, a tradition of memorising; partially or fully; the complete scripture by heart; by every Muslim man, woman or child; since the time it was revealed to the prophet Muhammad (saw). He also ensured the perpetuation of the Quran by mandating its recitation in every prayer, 5 times daily, and encouraging its complete recitation during the lunar month of Ramadhan... for 15centuries; by literally BILLIONS of Muslims. This assured its authenticity, since there was no total reliance on books or written documents that were exclusive to a specific class of people alone; and hence, easily corruptible. In addition, we have narrations about the prophet (saw), his life and sayings, which supplement our understanding of the Quran, to minimise false exegesis... each person giving his own understanding.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission. People were entrusted with the scriptures and they deliberately changed them, through the free will invested in them, in order to suit certain sectarian purpose. Many might have believed that their versions were superior to the original. Different versions and hearsay writings emerged and meanings and authors got lost in translations. All these events were permitted by Allah, since those Scriptures were meant for a specific time and place. Only the Quran was meant for all places and till the end of time, which is expected. Therefore it was kept intact and pure.

Yes, we believe Allah is infallible. The corruption of His earlier scriptures were by His permission

Anyway, we've moved far from the issue of the Kaaba and we still do not have any proof for the existence of Abraham.

chuzimgaius:
Ibori served Delta much more than ALL the state governors of his generation put together served their respective states. Though coming from an opposite ethnic group to mine he did transformed my region, developed the entire senatorial districts built higher institutions, started airport projects and biggest of all brought an end to the age long tribal wars! If the so called saints that succeeded him or served in his generation did as much as he did we would all have been proud of the Nigeria we have today.

Clearly you've never heard of Donald Duke.

You people with your short memories.

ogb5:
He picked the wrong horse and was left exposed and you are happy about it. You are not politically savvy. So as long corrupt politicians pick the right horse and are covered by their fellow politicians, you are happy.

For your information, Ibori was way ahead of his peers in terms of development of his state. The south south politicians have not been able to control the media that is why the the sw dominated media can label anyone of them a crook and it sticks.

But people on the ground compare politicians while voting and they vote for who ever they think represent their interest more. In this case Ibori's daughter got the votes of her local community, respect their vote.

I care more for progress than I do politics, I wish for them all to be exposed - they should all be made to justify their assets. Delta needs a lot of work, all that money squandered (both in Nigeria and abroad) could have been used for good. Progress would entail justice being done. Ibori is in jail. Where the courts in Asaba failed the London courts succeeded.

Your claim that it is a question of linguistic groups attacking others is silly. Tinubu has been called a crooked countless times. It is only because he overshadows most in the south-west that you rarely hear about others.

Have you ever asked why the south-west has such a viable media industry? Why do they sell so many newspapers throughout the south-west? Without a vibrant media you cannot have democracy.

It is the job of the media to uncover crooks, it wasn't just the Nigerian press, the foreign press knew that Ibori was a thief too.

Abuamam:
'Muslim' does not mean follower of the Quran or of Muhammad (saw). It means a monotheist that has submitted to the will of Allah. It is your definition of the word 'Muslim' that holds back your understanding of its usage.

Abraham and other prophets were Muslim obeying their own God-given laws. Successive prophets brought the same broad message if monotheism, and submission to the Will of Allah. The prophet Muhammad (saw) in a hadith, stated that there were about 140,000 prophets through the ages; all monotheists (or Muslim if you like). Some came with modified laws. Some came as warners and reminders of older laws from previous prophets. The prophet Muhammad (saw) was just the latest of them all. He was only unique in the sense that he was to be the final prophet, so his message had to be protected from being corrupted as the messages before his were. Another unique quality was that all other prophets were sent specifically to their tribes or nations. The prophet Muhammad's (saw) message was to be universally applied.

I did not even attempt to define 'Muslim'.

Muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah.

Do you believe that Allah is infallible? If so how is that he allowed his message to become corrupted and for his people to be lead astray?

Rilwayne001:
You should answer this question first: Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?



I hope you are not blind to see the bolded and the underlined

Jews and Muslims self-identify, I would not tell someone what they are nor define them. The words are used so loosely.

Abraham is not referred to as a Muslim by anyone who is not Muslim - he is recognized more so as a Jewish icon than a Muslim. Alas, I take your point.

Again, how can he have been a Muslim?

Do you have proof of his existence?

No sympathy for these crooks.

Stop selling yourself to politicians.

Start holding politicians to account.

Mynd44:
Wrong. The Eleko of Eko is different from the Oba of Lagos but in a way similar. The difference is the control they have.

The Eleko's territory is limited to Lagos Island and environs but that changed when the constitution made the crown the head of all traditional crowns in Lagos state. At this point, the Oba of Lagos was coined as the Oba of Lagos is the Oba of Lagos State not just Lagos Island like the Eleko

What purpose do they serve?

How are their activities funded?

Rilwayne001:
Yes



Whats your definition of "a muslim" and " a Jew"?

What makes you say that Abraham was a Muslim?

How could he follow the Quran without access to the Quran?

How could he follow Mohammed if he came before Mohammed?

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, known as the Patriarchs, are both the physical and spiritual ancestors of Judaism. They founded the religion now known as Judaism, and their descendants are the Jewish people. Of course, technically, it is incorrect to refer to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as Jews,
http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm

ogb5:
The problem with people like you is that you don't know the difference between fighting corruption and fighting between political opponents.

Not knowing the difference can make politicians to use you as pawn in achieving their personal ambitions.

Ibori was not jailed for corruption, he was jailed for losing a political fight. If you can not understand this then it is a pity.

Fighting corruption can lead to better governance, political fights among politicians don't lead to better governance, it simply leads to realignment of allegiance for political survival.

I do not much care how corruption is fought, so long as it is not seen as a viable means for survival. I understand that he picked the wrong horse and was left exposed, that does not concern me - the man was a crook and now he is in prison, that is good news.

Politicians such as Ibori had no fear because there was no accountability, either from the cowardly electorate or his equally corrupt peers.

Only a morally bankrupt person would defend this man.

Nigeria needs a lot of work, that so many in this thread fail to understand that thieving politicians impact upon budgets and effectiveness make me realize that civil society in Nigeria is very much in the dark ages. It adds pretext to what I see in some parts of the country as opposed to others.

People have often said that backwardness is a northern problem, judging from this thread Delta might as well be in the north.

Abuamam:
All that you said above is correct. Muslim sources narrate that after Ibrahim (as) built the Kaaba along with his son Ismail (as); for the worship of a Single, Creator Entity, subsequent tribes and immigrants who moved into the area brought their own gods along with them. These later were installed in the Kaaba and its environs. The worship of the Creator as Allah remained as the Supreme Diety. The new gods were seen as intercessors or 'daughters' of Allah; Who was percieved to be too Mighty to be worshipped or asked for favours directly. The rites of Hajj initiated by Ibrahim and Ismail (as) were incorporated into the god worship. These were;
-The tawaf around the Kaaba; who the pagans knew as the house of Allah.
- The standing at Arafat for seeking Allah's forgiveness. It was narrated that this is where Adam and Hauwa (as) pleaded for Allah's forgiveness after their act of disobedience, and were subsequently forgiven. (No original sin in Islam, but I digress).
- The throwing of stones which were to commemorate the event where Satan appeared to Ibrahim (as) 3 times; to try to dissuade him from proceeding to build the Kaaba at Mecca.
- The sa'y between the 2 hills of asSafa and alMarwa which reminds us of how Hagar, the wife of Ibrahim, sought water for her son after her abandonment in the plains of Mecca.

All these events were well known and the pagan Arabs acknowledged them; long before the advent of the prophet Muhammad (saw).
Upon his re-entry into Mecca, he cleansed the Kaaba and its surroundings of idols and revived the worship of Allah the Supreme Creator alone.

This is what our sources say. Now why do you think they are untrue? Obviously, Ptolemy and other Roman/ Greek sources were not comprehensive and Arabia was never under Roman or Greek rule, so documents from such sources will not be possible. However, I would like to know why Muslim or pre-Islamic Arab historians are not authentic?



Abraham was not a Jew. Not even the jews say he was. The name Jew 'Hebrew: Yehudi' is derived from the fourth son of Abraham's great grandson; Judah (Yehudah), son of Jacob. The laws associated with the Jews were said to be of much later origin... revealed to Moses.
You need to understand the exegesis of the word 'Muslim'. In Islam, it means one who has submitted his will and desires to the laws and dictates of the Almighty. Abraham was one such. So were all the prophets of Islam. Therefore, they are recognised as Muslims (submitters to God) and monotheists.

I have never said that Muslim/Arab sources are not authentic but what I do know is that there is a tendency by some people to physically destroy sources that do not match their own narrative - the Muslims are described as having cleansed the Kaaba of any earlier gods. We see it today with ISIS, we've seen it in the past with Muslims destroying icons in Egypt, Sudan and Iran. Does not the Koran make mention of the polytheistic Arab tribes in the region? We have evidence that tribes in the region had other gods and some of them were venerated at the Kaaba.

People from Greece and Rome would have traveled around the middle east, particularly traders who would have reported back - you do not have to be a ruler to visit and observe.

In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews (including converts, according to Jewish tradition)

As far as I am aware there is no evidence of Abraham (as described in the Bible) ever having existed. As such there is no evidence that this same unproven Abraham built the Kaaba.

Rilwayne001:
Lemme start here.



Okay good.


Can you please provide your prove.



Woww, please provide this prove.



I already told you on the other thread that it was built by Abraham.




David made mention people performing pilgrimage as they pass through the valley of bakkah and to say that this is not the valley of bakkah of the Quran where pilgrimage is performed is really to career out of the common sense interpretation here, history knows of no other valley of bakkah which is associated with pilgrimage other than the one in Arabia.



And this is my problem with atheist.

Was Abraham a Muslim?

How could he be a Muslim and a Jew, as claimed in the Bible/Torah?

rutemi:
Whatever your view is,please,he's indeed a hero,no gov of delta had met up with his standard,I'm a leaving testimony of those whose life he changed,he might have stolen every politician has,even you would do the same.

That is a truly disturbing opinion - to say that everyone would have stolen and thus Ibori did no wrong is a sign that your moral compass is well and truly broken.

I trust that you will be kept far away from any seat of power.

Abuamam:
Oh! An atheist thread. Good. That should be a refreshing interlude from those close-minded evangelical arguementators. At least atheists pride themselves on the use of reason, rather than cognitive disonance.

Now...

-What is the evidence that the Kaaba was built for Hubal's sake? (as per your final statement).

-What period do you percieve to be that of the 'commencement of Islam? (as per your penultimate statement).

-What do you think will serve as satisfactory 'evidence', that can be reasonably obtained?



Come on. I have told you before. Do not be a disgrace to atheists. Atheists claim to act only on REASON. You said something is a lie without having any proof of its being so. That was an emotional outburst, not a logical premise. Correct yourself please. Only we religious fellows are permitted such attitudes.

Before Muhammad appeared, the Kaaba was surrounded by 360 idols, and every Arab house had its god. Arabs also believed in jinn (subtle beings), and some vague divinity with many offspring. Among the major deities of the pre-Islamic era were al-Lat (“the Goddess”), worshiped in the shape of a square stone; al-Uzzah (“the Mighty”), a goddess identified with the morning star and worshiped as a thigh-bone-shaped slab of granite between al Talf and Mecca; Manat, the goddess of destiny, worshiped as a black stone on the road between Mecca and Medina; and the moon god, Hubal, whose worship was connected with the Black Stone of the Kaaba. The stones were said to have fallen from the sun, moon, stars, and planets and to represent cosmic forces. The so-called Black Stone (actually the color of burnt umber) that Muslims revere today is the same one that their forebears had worshiped well before Muhammad

In her book, Islam: A Short History, Karen Armstrong asserts that the Kaaba was at some point dedicated to Hubal, a Nabatean deity, and contained 360 idols that probably represented the days of the year. In Guillaume's translation of Ibn Ishaq, an early biographer of Muhammad, the Ka'aba itself was addressed using a feminine grammatical form.

Evidence would entail sources outside of the Koran, such as writings from Ptolemy (1st century CE) and others who preceded Mohammed (570 - 632 CE).