₦airaland Forum

Before I start, let me say I may be one of the reprobates, I dont know. Christianity is so complex and convoluted that its hard to be doubly sure.

ANyways read this excerpt:

"Reprobation is that eternal will, good pleasure, or purpose of God according to which He determined that some of His moral, rational creatures would be cast into hell forever on account of their sins; and that this fact would serve the cause of Christ and redound to God's glory alone.

Before condemning the idea of reprobation out of hand, let us consider what the Word of God declares. There are several pertinent passages which speak on this subject. Possibly the clearest statements concerning reprobation can be found in Romans 9. There we read of Jacob and Esau, that before they were ever born or had done good or evil, God said, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated" (v. 13). Of Pharaoh, whose heart God had hardened so that he would not Israel go from Egypt, we read, "Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout the earth" (v. 17). Romans 9 mentions also that "whom he will, he hardeneth" (vs. 18), and it speaks of "vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction" (vs. 22).

What other conclusion can be drawn from these passages but that they teach plainly that God reprobates some to hell because of their sin? God hardens whom He will; He fits some to destruction. Other passages of Scripture are equally clear. We read, for instance, in I Peter 2:8, ", a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed." Or again, we read in John 10:26, "But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you." These and other passages show that God determines the actions of sinful men (as He did with Pharaoh in the time of Moses), and that these actions are eternally determined by God. "

For the full article, please read: http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_44.html full with bible verse supports.

frosbel

Your position demonstrates a lack of understanding but thats we are here to learn; I have learnt from ur posts as well.

Holiness and righteousness become optional. Not really. The Bible says: "Did ye receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" The same Bible also says:

"If any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, He is none of His"

"If ye BY THE SPIRIT put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live"

It is therefore evident that:
1.) Holy Spirit lives in every believer.
2.) The the Holy SPirit the deeds of the body are put to naught.
3.) The believer has been renewed, no longer in Adam but in Christ so therefore naturally wills to do good therefore OSAS. God said there is none that is righteous and calls Christ righteousness (1 Cor 1:30)

The believer suffers loss regardless.
You are right. Unfaithful christians lose reward so no argument here but dont lose salvation because its a gift. Interestingly, I believe God has ordained unfaithful christians to so be toobut this is only my personal belief and may be wronfg.

Makes Jesus look bad.
God said only few will find the narrow way so no God is fulfilling his will; its d gospel of d remnant.

Produces sadly mistaken people. God told people to come INHERIT the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world not the kingdom they worked for.

Teachers Must Repent Anybody who says that the doctrine of predestination and election is false, that OSAS is false risks being accursed (not kidding here).

We Can Do It You are right that the doctrine needs to be balanced with exhortations to good works and righteous living for sure, no doubt about that. No argument here.



Note whart

frisbel the problem is that you have seen bible verses quoted to you, I have at least 50 verses that support calvinism, wat other kind of evidence do u want?

God said he saves who He wills and hardens whom he wills for His glory. God said explicitly in Acts 13:48

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

The Bible is precise here. In enumerating the numbers it says only as many as were ordained to life believed there was no going over that number. Sorry but thats what the Bible says.

Again i quote below

Acts 18: 9 And the Lord said to Paul one night in a vision, “Do not be afraid, but go on speaking and do not be silent, 10 for I am with you, and no one will attack you to harm you, for I have many in this city who are my people.” 11 And he stayed a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

Coming down to your question of once saved always saved, yes it is true that ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED BUT:

1.) There are still consequences for sin in this world.
2.) There is no possibility of the christian going to hell - why? Because "Jehova hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

I propose that should any fall away from the faith including myself then it is God who also decided that to happen.

To the person who said the Blood of Christ was shed for all men, hear this:

1.) Christ died for all men. His Blood and the Cross was for all mankind. He was the last Adam.
2.) However, effectually speaking, the blood and the Cross are only effectual for the elect i.e. the called and chosen.
3.) The Bible says: "Many are called but few are chosen"; im guessing here but my hypothesis is that many are called into the kingdom but many of d called are stuck wiv sin to fulfill parable of the sower, now only the chosen persever and those few r d elect. but this is just a guess. but items 1.) and 2.) are sure.

Many Christians will be shocked on the last day, saying Lord , but Lord, did we not heal in your name etc. He rejected them because THEY WERE WORKERS OF INIQUITY.

That still is divine design. The Bible says:

"Even so in this present time there has been a chosen remnant according to the election of grace"

It is Gods design that only a remnant few will make it else you call Go a liar that he lied in the verse above and you know what happens to ppl who call God liars.

It is true that many will be told depart from me ye that work iniquity but that is to fulfill the gospel of the remnant - that only the selected remnant will enter the kingdom. That is why only he who endures till the end will be saved, merely believing on christ will not get you into heaven if God ordained you not to be a part of the successful few remnant who will endure. Do you understand it now.

This is why the Spirit said:

"In the later times many will depart from the faith and become lovers of self instead of lovers of God"

Here God is saying wat will happen in future once again confirming that creation is for his divine purpose. These camp predicted by the Spirit cannot help but fulfill what has come out of the mouth of God. so when christians fal away, it is confirmin the gospel of the remnant those who have not bowed to Baal. read romans. many xtians will succumb to sin and devil because thats what God ordained. only the select few will make it. painful but true. these are d true elect. are u one of them? or will ur pride lead u to make further blind arguments.

If God decides to send u to hell, u should say: "Who am I, I am only but clay and you are the porter. Thank you for sending me to hell because that glorifies you" That should be the prayer.

Reversal

Those quoting the reversal scriptures - I dont know what you are trying to achieve with it, there is no clear indication that the passage os talking about election.

Shut Up Verse

One night the Lord spoke to Paul in a vision: "Do not be afraid; keep on speaking, do not be silent. For I am with you, and no one is going to attack and harm you, because I have many people in this city." So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God. (Acts 18:9-11)
Here God did not tell Paul to stay and preach so that all may believe, HE told Paul to preach because HE had much people inthe city. This tallies with "He will save His people from their sins". Any serious bible scholar will agree the concord between the two verses unless u just want to convonce urself otherwise so as not to feel bad or because u r unsure if u r in d camp.

The problem is that most of you cannot believe the harshness of your own Bible. Let me lay the argument once to save time:

1. God foreknew the fall of man in the garden of eden.
2. From that fall God predetermined those He will regenerate.
3. From those regenerated and saved only those who really live righteous lives (not of themselves), will eventually go to heaven so that means many christians will be in hell. Most of you are arguing against this truth because you fear u might be in it.
4. It is Gods design that only few will be saved so that He will glorify himself by the condemnation of the wicked and the glorification of the elect.
5. Here is what God said - I will take the time to give you all the verses:
i.) please refer to parable of the sower - God makes it clear it is only one camp that makes it, for those who call my theory demonic, please note that you blaspheme the Holy Spirit who by His own mouth said that few there be that will find the narrow way.
ii.) Read ephesians 1 where it was clearly spelled out that God chose his ppl before they were born.
iii.) The Bible says that He will save His people from their sins.
iv.) Those who try to use John 3:6 forget that "whosoever" does not mean all.
v.) JAcob I have loved, Esau I hated BEFORE THEY HAD DONE GOOD OR BAD
vi.) "He had NOT ORDAINED US TO WRATH, but to obtain salvation by our lord jesus christ", this spells it out, SOME WHERE ORDAINED TO WRATH.

‘They will all be taught by God.’[d] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Who will be taught by God? Everyone WHO HAS HEARD does not mean everyone will hear. Lets make sound arguments and not waste time.

v.) God said: "AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED TO ETERNAL LIFE BELIEVED"
VI.)

InesQor,
I must thank you for believing d scripture as it is when presented without defensive argument. It shows u r open to good discourse. Here is my theory which is well backed up by the Bible.

Turn to the parable of the sower, there are 4 camps, only 1 camp that fell o the good ground made it and will make it eventually to heaven. these are Gods chosen pl who will be told:

"Come & inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world"

The people who are no Gods ppl are the reprobates he majority, who on the judgement day will be told:

"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire"

This is who God said to some ppl that they do not understand because they are not his sheep.

God chose to glorify himself by the "just" condemnation of the wicked & glorification of the elect.

@obalende, God doesnt win you so he can deceive you, you have to understand that man is a rational being, he can make decisions on his own that God didnt even destined him to do.Thats why in Gen 6:7, the bible shows that God regretted creating man, this shows that God is not just remoting us to do what we do.Now how does this apply to Judas and Anians?, firstly the case of annians is very different. But back to the subject matter, for the fact that it was prophesied that someone was going to betray Jesus, it didnt have to be Judas. Judas put himself in that prophecy by having the wrong attitude towards spiritual things.Imagine, Judas was actually stealing from the purse in his charge (john 12:6), showing he didnt even have any regard for Jesus, so it is no surprise he fulfilled the prophecy, for he already developed a bad attitude. so God is not critically making people fulfill prophecy, man out of his own will choses to either do right or wrong, hence fulfilling prophecies of different sorts.

remember, James 1:17, shows that Every good gift comes from god, thus he predestines everything to be good. Even afer creation God saw that everything he made was Good. But how come there is even a devil? God made lucifer, but lucifer made himself the devil by trying to challenge God, inotherwords, he was making himself antigod. so it is actually the things God has created and has given them a right to choose, that turn out to either fulfill the good plan God made for them or not fulfill it. And when they dont fulfill Gods plan they fulfill the prophecies of evil

You are blaspheming the Holy Spirit by saying he does not know the end from the beginning. God foreknew his regret in Gen 6:7 just the same way he foreknew Judas betrayal. Judas DID NOT PUT HIMSELF. IT IS GOD THAT ORDAINS PPL.

The problem today is that most ppl dont want to believe he harshness of christianity and some teachings i would class as plain mean.

God does not predestine everything to be good - this is just ur own rationalizing of harsh scriptural teachings that for example God prepared some humans as VESSELS OF WRATH PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION.

Back to topic, please note that when Jesus Christ makes you his Partner, you are only going to preach the whole world but only the elect will hear and believe? Why? Because God decided to glorify himself in two ways:

1.) Showing mercy to his elect (not all saved are elect only the remnant from the saved who endure till the end ONLY).
2.) Showing anger & wrath to the "vessels of wrath fitted for destruction", "who have been hardened"


To which camp do you belong?

Most profesing christians reject the true gospel. Christ only atoned for his chosen ppl, the true seed and the true children of God. If you are a sinner, perpetual sinner, going to church every sunday, doing good works etc, its not by good works. God already knows who will be saved, who will be saved for a while and then walk away, who will not be saved etc. God even ordained that most of mankind will burn in hell for all eternity:

"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to God forever and ever".

Only those Christ wills to save will be saved. I repeat, only those Christ wills to be saved will be saved and only those he endues with power to endure to the end will enter heaven. Rest of humanity, pls back your sleeping bags and utensils and get ready for everlasting punishment.

In Isaiah 6, God said that there was no body to help him work salvation, so He worked it himself. No, what u have written is not strictly true; sometimes God/ Jesus wins you so that he can DECEIVE you. This was what happened to Ananias & Judas Iscariot, they taught they were disciples - little did they know that God was using them to fulfill mean prophecies.

every man that sins is of d devil.

Christ shed HIS BLOOD ONLY FOR THE ELECT. So if u aint elect, grab your sleeping bags & get ready for hell fire!

"He will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins".

many make the mistake that salvation occurs once and dat they get the unmerited favor of God but that is not true. The gospel is a gospel of the remnant; even ppl who have received grace will or can go to hell (cross reference Watchman Nee & numerous Bible quotations).

only d elect will b saved, d rest r cursed.

some were elected to heaven, others ordained to damnation to hell (majority).

@MsSophista
I dont mean to sound abusive but you are misguided. Note that:
i.) Christ only died for the elect who were chosen by God from the foundation of the world. Few there be that chose the narrow way that leadeth to heaven and majority will depart from the faith.

"The Spirit says that in the later times many will depart from the faith"

Has someone lost faith in Christ today? The Holy Spirit already said it will happen. This is why

ii.) You do not decide to receive Christ, Christ decides if He will give you life and save you.

The Lambs Book of Life is crucial in Christianity. It is a Book by the Lamb in which was written the names of everybody God will give Life to (save).

Today, false teachers and prophets such as on this forum purport that God will save everybody or that if you struggle, pray hard etc, ppl will be saved (who are not on the list) and go to heaven. But a cursory look reveals this is not what the Bible teaches. Here is what the bible teaches:

1.) Who is being saved today? Those whose names are in the Lambs Book of Life primarily. "And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

2.) As soon as all in the Book are saved, I predict the trumpet will be blown and rapture will take place.

3.) Revelation says all those whose names were not found written in the Book of Life were cast into the lake of fire. What is not known is whether the list is static or constantly changing but the following scripture suggests its static:

"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
It is an inheritance, you do not work for an inheritance

Is your name in the Book? Has it been deleted? What makes you so sure?

Image123 wrote:

Any one of us can turn

Image123, I see you are working for darkness by propagating a false teaching. Jesus predicted only few will be saved and go to heaven with majority may go to hell. God may allow the god of this world to blind people that they might not believe. Jesus said no one can come to the Father unless God draws him. I predict only those in the book of life will be saved. Its time we preached what I think is the true gospel.

@5solas
Man is a puppet in Gods hands. Mans actions are coerced by either God or the devil, such actions emanating to what has been put in his mind by God or the devil; the mind likened to a battlefield. "Thine people shall be willing in the day of thine power" the bible says.

Here are the main points of Christianity based on scripture:

1.) God made man for his fun. ", thou art worthy, and made all things for your pleasure, "
2.) God cherry picked those He will save and those that will endure to the end and get saved and go to heaven (those in the Book of Life - minority), the rest of us non-believers (the majority) are cursed by the Christian God and will burn in Hell for all eternity:

"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels"
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to God forever and ever"

4.) Who is saved? He who believes or He who endures to the end? Pastors use whichever is convenient.

5.) Majority will go to hell, many saved people may not make it, only the selected remnant. He only has mercy on whom He wills.

6.) For you to be a true christian, you must suffer, the devil will be allowed by God to send you nightmares, cause you illness and kill you. Suffering is an integral part of christianity so if u aint suffering u aint no christian. GOD ORDAINED SUFFERING FOR CHRISTIANS.

Guys, basically for 10 consecutive days, at 9am, 11am and 2pm all working hours, nobody at Nigeria House NY picks up the phone. I have applied and the passport is all processed but they are not sending it back to me - they are probably lazy or something. Please does anyone know any extension number of any individual who works there?

what ppl dont know is that he is carrying out new world order illuminati one world government directives; slowly but surely the plan is coming to pass,

a cashles society must first come to pass to increase govt control of u.

no human being should own this much in a country where there is so much poverty. This is classical greed in all it's ramifications.

it doesnt work like that. as long as the money was legally acquired, no problem.

i expect oceanic bank shares to appreciate noww : )

anybody have a french translation of it?

Hi hikari,

To answer your questions; I will first of all say that the Christian religion is not a sham; Jesus Christ is the only true God and there is salvation in no other; but I still think that the Christian God is unfair, unreasonable and seems cruel most times. What baffles me sometimes is why God would create and imperfect being & punish him in hell for being made imperfect (and pls dont blame evil forces); and then human beings are punished on earth for being made imperfect - seems cruel to me.

(1)According to the history of the bible (from Adam till the present day), the world is not older than 5000 years and yet, there are archaeological findings dating back to millions and even billions of years back.There is no mention of ancient civilizations, dinosaurs or prehistoric plant life.All that was mentioned are what we see around us today.Could you explain this discrepancy?

What is presented in Genesis is not the origin of the world but the origin of man; the only defence of Christianity is Bible so evidence will be presented from there:

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Between verses one and two are potentially millions of years; beings had existed before adam was made i.e. present day demons.

(2)In the book of Genesis, Cain killed Abel out of jealousy.He was exiled from Eden and he went to the land of Nod and married there.Can you explain who those people were coz from my recollection, at that time it was just Adam,Eve and two kids.So who are these people that were "omitted" in the story and who is this mysterious woman Cain married? Was it his sister? Or did he get married to animals?

I have no answer to this.

(3)In the same bible, the lord was angry with the world he created and was determined to destroy his creation (how ironic ).He instructed Noah to build an arc and put pairs of all living things in that ark.To the best of my knowledge, botanists spend their entire lives collecting and identifying species of a particular organism/animal/plant.Even if he lived 2,000 years on earth, there was no way he could have been able to achieve such a feat coz there were no airplanes,buses or ships to travel across the globe to get all pairs of organisms.Are we trying to say he came down to Africa to get the African elephant and then trekked back to India to get the Indian elephant? Think about it and you'll see how ridiculous it sounds.No roads.No buses.No planes.No ships.No rockets.No internet and yet. . .

I have no answer.

(4)The current bible used in Christianity today has two parts. . .the old and new testament.Now there are practices in the old testament that most churches especially Pentecostals have discontinued e.g eye for an eye, sacrificial offerings and so on.When you ask them, they tell you that Christ came and all things are washed away rendering the old testament null and void.If this is true, why then do they still revert to Malachi 3:10 when it comes to psyching up the congregation to give more offerings and tithes? Weren't all things of old washed away? The same people will tell you that no part of the bible is irrelevant and the same people choose the parts that suit them.Are they confused about who and what they are worshiping?Do they even have an idea of what they are doing?

I have no answer.

(5)The god in the bible is referred to as the all knowing god. . .the omni potent, omni present and all that. If he is all these, then he should have known that Eve would be tempted by the serpent and she would fall.He should have known how his creation would go till this present day.Why then did he create man when he knew that failure was imminent? The bible says he destroyed the world once and will do it again (some call it rapture, others call it Armageddon, a few think it's both ways). Why create something and condemn it? Is the bible implying that god is confused? That he makes errors? Isn't he supposed to be the all knowing god? Explain this please.

This is what baffles me the most; God apparently gets "angry" at beings who were made imperfect (even if it was thru satan that man became imperfect, its not the issue) - human beings are being punished for a state they did not ask for. I did not ask to be created. Oh maybe God wants some people to torture - maybe I will get divine wrath for speaking my mind.

(6)The people who brought us Christianity also brought guns,liquor and slave trade (i don't know about you but that doesn't sound "holy-like" to me).They superimposed their religion on the black folks as a means of control.The same people who brought us their religion don't take it as serious as we do.I might be wrong but Nigeria to the best of my knowledge is the most prayerful/religious country in the world (there is hardly any street in Lagos without at least 2 churches or fellowships) and yet, with all the abundance of religion, we are the most cold hearted people to our fellow human beings! Christianity as we know it today originated from the Catholic church whose practices are chiefly unorthodox or in plain English. . .idol worship (how else can you explain worshiping a graven image of Mary, praying to saints,kissing the rings and feet of priests and the rosary. . .all of which aren't mentioned in the bible). Christians all claim to be worshiping one god. . .why then can't a Christ Embassy worshiper spend a few Sundays at Celestial Church of Christ? Why can't a C.A.C Pastor minister in Assemblies of God? Why can't Winners Chapel members worship in K&S? Or are there different gods? Are the so called Christians confused? Please explain these few questions satisfactorily and i'll hold my peace.

there are divisions in the church - this is more political than religious so is not an issue.

NB : Please, don't give me the usual "god works in mysterious ways" or " the ways of the lord cannot be understood" or " do not question the lord" crap.I've heard it one time too many.

descendants of Ham!

about 3 years ago, I was very interested in Standard Chartered; I did the personality test and passed it but failed the numerical.

But subsequent years, I have kept failing the Gallup personality test even though I give decent answers during the stupid test. Since i have passed it before, I do not believe the test is accurate.

So does anyone have any tips for passing the Gallup test?

Some things I wanted to find out:

- Customer service for small sized businesses, how is it?
- Collateralized loan and unsecured loan - how easy to obtain?
- Is deposit safe i.e. what are the chances of the Bank winding up?

Thanks.

It is disheartening to see people rationalising gradual tyranny
The issue of foreign brokers is vastly different from a situation when any provocation can result in the death of innocent people

Using my bank robbery example, the robbers probably shot the security man before departing with the loot; the fact is if they have been caught in the act they should be shot. my thought thogh.

I introduced foreign broker issue to show how if something uncommon is not done, based on past experience, ppl living in the country can take things out of proportion; so if something drastic like shoot if in weapon in vicinity of scene, or shoot if caught in the act, then MANY YOUNG BOYS WILL TAKE KIDNAPPING AS THE WAY FORWARRD (jus like forex - thats where my analogy was going).

desgiedz
will an innocent civilian be carrying a gun, knife or other weapon in a crime scene? too coincidental for the person to be innocent.

i understand your point though - maybe they should taser instead? but definitely, the on the spot concept is what will work in nigeria. If robbers rob a bank and depart in their van with millions, civilised methods mostly will not work because its often difficult to trace the robbers; but if you shoot and kill on the spot, justice is done; i know it seems harsh but thats my mind; the reason it has to be done this way is that nigerians go crazy with everything; there was forex craze until foreign brokers made specific policies to stop opening accs for nigerians. then kidnapping, with each successfulkidnapping, the ill is reinforced. it will take an uncommon decision and method to stop it; one many will not agree with such as this - many ppl are now entering kidnapping because they feel there is no serious consequence.

my two cents.

@onlytruth

So my question is this: Does it mean that the Nigerian police is incapable of operating by 20th century standards (never mind the 21st century ones) Huh Undecided

So, the only thing they can think about as a solution to the crime problem is "on the spot" execution of criminals? Huh

What type of a country is this?

kidnappers are not polite; these are wicked men, if you are innocent, dont even act like a criminal; execute upon suspicion - its the only thing that can stop it with help of God. these murderers are ruthless.

civilians are not allowed to carry gun in nigeria. if someone is caught with a gun in the vicinity of a crime scene, the person should be shot. because you shouldnt hv had a gun in the first place; many would argue its not civilised but what works in europe may not necessarily work in nigeria.

like i said these men are ruthless.