₦airaland Forum

from Abdullah ibn mas'ud that the messenger of God said,' it is not permissible to shed the blood of a muslim who bears there is no god but Allah and i am the messenger of Allah except in one of three, a soul for soul (murder), adultery and an apostate' bukhari, 6484

At the bolded;

1. Soul for a soul while Masjid Haram/the princinct of Kaaba a security place where the Murderer cant be hurt, when he gets there. Also there is
something called "blood-money" payment or complete forgiveness by the family of the victim. Their decision is the final human decision on the
matter. I am sure you do not the Quranic verse on this matter because you know it already.

2. And even at stoning, if the one being stoned for adultery says that he did not commit the sin, the prophet (AS) says that you must leave him for
Allah to decide, because maybe He has forgiven him or her. You do know that it happened, and Ali bin AbiTalib did not allow a woman to be
stoned based on her mental conditions.

3. The issue of apostasy, I have addressed it many times. I am certain that no muslim alive today is a better muslim than the weakest of those
who are companions; if Muhammad (AS) and Umar (RA) allowed people to go about their lives after they left islam, using Quran as their guide, then your understanding of the ahadith to "kill" a person who changes his religion needs a good and better understanding. If taking as it reads from the ahadith; no one should become muslim, from time that that ahadith was first uttered; those pagan should then be killed for converting to Islam! You see how wrong all of it could have been, if we do not go to the people who understand the meaning of ahadith? We will then kill all Hausas, Yorubas, Fulanis, etc who became muslims after that ahadith!

@dexmond: I watched your movie, titled Fitna. Whatever I disagree with comes not frm Quran. What is in the Quran, is in the Quran; all of it, I agree with! I think you are batting 0 for 100, here. A cultural issue is different from religious condition; most people under pressure forget religion because of the prevailing (pain, oppression, etc they are suffering) condition and resort to the primodal "self defense" opposite to their "natural/normal" expected religious qualities.

We see that in all religions! Duuuh!

@Skyone: For your father to father my father, then he would have to be about about 40 years old 1n 1890! If not, then you are a liar! My father fathered men in their 80s, close to 90 years old! What kind of untruth are you saying? Lol! My father was alot older than the Old timers of Ijebu Ode; The Kukus, the Soyes, the Alatishes, the old Odutolas! Are you kidding me because I have nieces and nephews older than me!

@Tpia; Thats also enough. Avoid confrontations. The heart of humans, only God knows it. Am sure neither of them will insult a woman when she is standing face to face with them. They say in america, (earthly) hell has no fury like a woman scorned (angry)! Lets bygone, be bygone.

@Noetic: Thanks, but I never considered myself as being insulted by you. Otherwise I will avoid you like a plague. Yet those I avoid now, I do not consider as people who insulted me, because I do not hold any grudge, against anyone. Life is too short, so pass the jaw breakers!

@Abuzola: Islam calls that I support you in both conditions; if somebody is oppressing you, I should support you against him/her. On the other hand, if you are oppressing somebody, and I know from your heart it is not your intention to oppress anyone, I will have to help you fight the "desire or that deed of oppression." In this case, you should stop antagonising Tpia. If you cant deal with her for the pleasure of Allah, without upsetting her, to the point that it borders on oppression, avoid her.

Allah can punish a believer who oppresses a disbeliever, based on his or her own desire. May Allah have Mercy on all of us. Amin.


@Noetic: May Allah forgive me my sins. Amin. I will never take the position of a good man, because that will be arrogance and price, a deceit of satan, self grandstanding/agandizemenet. But then, go and search out any person whom you thought I had problem with; they caused it, many times over before I responded. I am even wrong for responding, since most of these people are adult, yet in the age range of my own children; a span of 30 years between us! So I blame myself. But what am I doing on nairaland, a watering hole of young people, except supporting my muslim brothers and sisters?

@Playboy: As a yoruba man, I am personally disappointed offended when a non yoruba man calls a yoruba woman: Prostitute! Unless you are a yoruba man, then it is as if you have insulted all yoruba women and my mother is yoruba, so it becomes a thing in my own eye an insult on the like of my mother!

As a son of a woman, I am personally offended that you insulted a woman, calling her a prostitute! You have no right to say that and unless you can proof that you she is for hire by any and all, you must desist in calling her such a name, especially when you have women in your life!

As a muslim, I am offened that you insult a womb, especially when you came out of one! Is this what life is in Abuja; insulting women, with words of false accusation? Even a man who finds a woman easy for him cant label her as easy or prostitute, because she may not be easy for other men!

It is very shameful to lie against anyone with such impunity! You must stop calling her such a horrible name; if any of her male folks were to stand in front of you, and you call her that, you will only end up regretting such a blasphamy; would you like it anyone say that to the women in your life? Think about this and I thought the foolishness of past generation was left behind by the latest generation of people!

@Abuzola: « #51 on: Today at 09:36:42 PM »
Here is Tirmidhi hadith, Arabic text book version
Ibn Abbas narrated that he heard the Holy Prophet said,'whoever changes his religion should be put to death' Tirmidhi, vol 4, page 48
if you need more hadith let me know[quote][/quote]Are you ascholar of ahadith? If you are, you could be wrong, sometimes you know. And the only book of authority is the Book of Allah (AL QURAN KARIM) and the only examplelah (AS). His wife (AISHA ra), says that Muhammad is the "WALKING" Quran. This means that all his actions emanate and can be traced directly to Quran. So when a person says something of ahadith or sunnah about him, go and check it with the Quran. If it is there as a source of its "Knowledge water fountain", you take the sunnah and or the ahadith as if it is drinking water to quench your thirst. If not there you discard it as fabricated, weak, etc and unreliable.

In Surah Hud, when you read the Tafsir of verses 16 through 20, you will see that his companions (RA) said that all ahadith is conirmed by the Quran!

Now Abuzola, confirm this Tirmidi ahadith by Quran to include all "apostates; the ready to fight you as well as the one who just left islam without ever raising a hand against you or said anything bad about Islam!" The reason I disagree with the Aisha age of marriage is simply because of all that Quran said about the potential spouses, and what I derived from ahadith and the sunnah of Muhammad (AS) about the involvement of the potential wives as to the marriage contracts, etc!


Fr me, when a person follows Muhammad (AS) I will follow him in Islam. When he deviates from the path line of Muhammad (AS), I will stop following him and attach myself to those who are still follwoing Muhammad!

A so called scholar who creates his own understanding, knowingly different from Muhammad, is already heading to Hell fire. If he is called and he return on the Siratul Mustaqiim, then he is successful as ong as he remains on it. I do not folow or have any alligiance to any but Allah in the way of His Messenger (Muhammad bi Abdallah(AS)).

@Abuzola:« #41 on: Today at 04:15:54 PM »  

@muhsin- Are you sayiing punishment for apostate does not exist in islam and that Saudi arabia is unguided by killing apostate ?

Could you tell me if everything saudi says or does is equal to 100% Quran and or authentic ahadith? Between Umar bin Khattab and Saudi arabia, which is a better muslim and scholar? If Umar could be corrected by women of Madina, then there is no way saudi arabia can be right all the time; their mistakes; not allowing women to drive, while Aisha (RA) rode all by herself and the prophet (AS) did not say anything against it! I have tons of their "faults" in Islam!

If Allah allows punishment fo all apostates, where does the verse in the Quran which says; those who left islam, and come back to it, and leave it again, and so on, fit? Why did the prophet did not kill everyone who left Islam, including the one who boasted in Abasha/Ethiopia that he used to author the Quran? The prophet could have commanded the companions who later emigrated to Ethiopia, in the second wave to kill him. No?

What about the man who for his concern as he returned to Makka and became a pagan, that Umar ibn Khattab (RA) was so unhappy, not because he had Umar's horse/camel (i forgot which one), but because Umar missed his "good quality" that Allah revealed "Say; oh My slaves who have transgressed, do not despire in the Mercy of your Lord, He forgives all sins, Most Merciful, Oft Forgiven". A verse that Umar messaged to the man, a means of which the man returned back into the folds of Islam!

Am sure you know the story of the people who left Islam because they could not believe Isra Miraj journey, during Makka? They did not return to Islam, until after Makka was conquered. Did Mhammad (AS) killed them or asked anyone to kill them? The answer is no, since there was no history of Muhammad killing anyone, except where they became hostile enemy to Islam and and muslim lives, taking up arms to do harms! If you have any evidence, please teach us; an argument is warranted with you, because you are a muslim.

The disbelievers like Aloy~Emeka can be excused for pure ignorance!

i dont get your drift, since thou shall not steal of the bible, is a toothless bark. but check out thou shall not steal of the Quran; it carries a hefty fine; if caught as a repeat offender, and ther is no essential reason fo it, but it is a disease, then the finger get chopped off!

now this is where you shoud be able to get my drift; a joke is different from fact.

good argument is wasted on ignorance.

@Nezan:

Re: Response to 2

Allah calls the person from the company of the Children of Israel in the wilderness samiri or samiriyu in sentence. Where is the problem? Its a name of a person and thats it, while you make a mountain out of a mere mole!

Response to 5

Buildings were in pharaoh periods were not all stones; Check other public buildings, except the Tombs! Duuh.
www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/building/ - Cached - Similar

www.touregypt.net/KIDS/monuments.htm - Cached - Similar

www.britannica.com/, /building, /Stone-construction-in-Egypt - Cached - Similar

www.cartage.org.lb/, /EgyptianArchitecture/BuildinginancientEgypt/BuildinginancientEgypt.htm - Cached - Similar

Stone construction in Egypt
Like the other great river valley cultures, Egypt built its cities with mud brick; fired brick did not appear there until Roman times. Timber was used sparingly, for it was never abundant. It was used mainly in roofs, where it was heavily supplemented by reeds. Only a few royal buildings were built with full timber frames.

It was against this drab background of endless mud brick houses that a new technology of cut-stone construction emerged in the temples and pyramids of the 4th dynasty (c. 2575–c. 2465 bc). Egypt, unlike Mesopotamia or the Indus valley, had excellent deposits of stone exposed above ground; limestone, sandstone, and granite were all available. But the extracting, moving, and working of stone was a costly process, and the quarrying of stone was a state monopoly. Stone emerged as an elite construction material used only for important state buildings.

The Egyptians developed cut stone for use in royal mortuary buildings not only for its strength but also for its durability. It seemed the best material to offer eternal protection to the pharaoh’s ka, the vital force he derived from the sun-god and through which he ruled. Thus stone had both a functional and symbolic significance.

Response on #6 talking about "in the land" for those with wrong understanding to indicate that Allah promised the Children of Israel a land called Egypt, is completely absurd! Allah promised believers as inheritors of the assigned heritage of Ibrahim (AS)! The Israelites, later becoming the Jews ae not blankedly covered, against the arabs and or believers in general, if they are disbelievers!

Now between the Children of Israel and the tyrannial Fir'awn with the evil and oppressive Egyptians under him, were losers and diselievers, while the cHildren of Israel were believers, reason that Musa was sent to give glad tiding of them getting from under the slavery, while warning the egyptians of impending punishment! After the children of Israel became complacent and do evil, in the long run, from history, they were defeated and carted away, and finally, the window of spiritual equality was opened to the rest of the world, through Arab Muhammad (AS), and it is the believers that will inherit the land of Ibrahim (Jerusalem being the symbol), while a sound aqeedah (true belief as in Islamic monotheism shall inherit the world; choking of the evil beliefs of atheism, agnostics, polytheism, Judaism, christianity.

where did the children of Israel, a mere race of slaves got the Gold (a simple example of heritage of Free slave owners' egyptians) which tey used to make the Golden calf? They found it on the way in the wilderness or took it from the Egyptians, since slaves dont really acquire anything, and we cant make the Israelites an exception in this old age historical rue of thimb of master /slave wealth acquisitions?

@Nezan: Crucifixion: A method of carrying out the death penalty which involved physical abuse of the victim, stripping him/her of all clothing, tying or nailing the arms and legs to a cross or stake, and abandoning the victim to die. The corpse was often partly eaten by scavengers. The body was generally denied a proper burial; it was tossed on a garbage heap. Crucifixion was widely used within the Roman Empire to execute either slaves or rebels.

Dhul Qarnayn in Surah Kahf was mentioned, and not Alexander and there is no mentioning of him being muslim or not muslim!

Contradiction #10: Allah says in Surah Taha to Musa (AS), about Fir'aum, that Pharaoh has trangressed all boundary of ewilness. Is it a surprising thing then that a person like that who reneged on his promises to Moses, again and again to declare that he was himself his people's god, so that he may continue to control him? Were there many people in his court to correct him, since he even killed his own wife, who is safe with him, except by Allah's permission and protection; finally he led them and himself to perish in the sea, though the Bible did not clearly indicate that he perished in the sea, the Quran was very clear about it.

Let me amuse myself here; though the christian say that there is three person's god, but sometime and almost all the time to show importance of Jesus in their lives, dont they say Jesus himself is the one god in three forms? and also say that Jesus is even "higher" than the holy Spirit, remember?

Masjid Aqsa occupies the place that Allah says He took His Servant (Muhammad) AS to from Makka! Do people even think at all? I have prayed in many masajid without walls, or outside a masajid in the open sky of it, outside!

Injeel was revealed to Jesus a Jew by tradition/culture, and under him as companions were his disciples, all of them Jews! It was later that they were called Christians, after the total revelations of Injeel, still unwritten, but revealed and Jesus was already lifted! The fact that it was later written by the later generation is actually a proof of its impurity, after a while after Jesus was lifted, and there was a disagreement within the ranks of the disciples, tanks to johnnie comes lately Saul Paul the apostle!

But what did Jesus preach, except Injel; goodnew. the gospel?

a married man or woman who was caught red handed by 4 witnesses in sexual intercourse with somebody he/she is not married to, when tried and found guilty, without a denial of the offense by calling the wrath of Allah on him/herself, in the fourth swearing, such a person must be stonesd to death. but in the stoning process, he or she can escape death, if a denial of the offense is proclaimed.

in war, killing is permissable.

what about in Christianity; is there a point or an event that permits killing, either as a defense against an agreessor or offensive move towards an evil doer who is determined to kill you?

@Aloy~Emeka: « #26 on: Today at 04:18:22 PM »

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Quote from: olabowale on Today at 02:41:11 PM


I believe that inhuman law of apostasy has nothing to do with Islam of the Prophet (s) and it is an interpolation into Islam by fanatics among us and the selfish rulers. There are many reasons for me to believe that execution for apostasy is a manufactured law rather than divine law.



Could Allah, the Most Merciful, Most Compassionate, be the source of " kill them [unbelievers] wherever you find them " found in the verse 2:191 of the Koran?. If the apostasy is not a divine law, then the quran is a manufactured manuscript by middle eastern fanatics like you claim. [quote][/quote]Show me a word of "apostasy or apostate" in that verse? Also, do you realise that the folks that are supposed to be fought or killed are themselves, fighters, killers and the party that started the fighting, the killing, the hostility?

Boys; nezan and sleek29, watch Aloy~emeka slips and slides through the Okra water "pond" or wet cemented floor! We are talking about apostasy/apostates, remember?

Aloy~Emeka: Is Igbo culture of Osu caste system Catholic culture? If not, then the cultures that do honor killing is just that; their cultural nuances. If its yes, then unfortunately for your catholic culture merging with what almost every igbo people is ashamed of. Fortunately Islam is a unique culture of its own; not makkan preislamic, not madinan preislamic, not arab preislamic, not igbo preislamic, not yoruba preislamic, not hausa preislamic, not edo preislamic, not wollof preislamic. all people who want to practice true islam will have to throw away all that are bad from their own cultures, retain what is good (Islamic compartible) and adopt others to have a full flavored Islamic culture!

I, like many Muslims, am still bitter over smear jobs done on my religion by Western media over the Gulf war, and the Rushdie affair. So, the last thing that I want is to see Islam slandered all over again because of the barbaric and un-Islamic apostasy law. Ask yourselves: what kind of religion kills people for simple choice of faith, a change of heart? Not a religion of love and peace, not a religion worthy of respect! Perpetuation of the law to kill apostates can only increase or create doubts in the heart of the Muslims and potential Muslims, as people everywhere are already bombarded by negative images of Islam.

My message to those Muslims who, like me, yearn to project true compassionate face of Islam is that Dawa will never be successful in the West as long as crazy nonsense of law of apostasy is unchallenged by Muslims. If Muhammed Ali, Cat Stevens, and Murad Hoffman were harassed by a reactionary Christian group, the Muslims will be up in arms! We must be consistent in our attitude and compassionate to those
Muslims who want to leave Muslim community.
"Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil, ” [9:71]

Therefore, let us protect the rights of all people to have freedom to believe and disbelieve. In closing, Islam is only vulnerable when Muslims abandon its clear teaching of reason, religious freedom, tolerance, and peace.

The Qur'an states:

"How shall God guide those who reject Faith after they accepted it and bore witness that the apostle was true and that clear signs had come unto them? But God guides not a people unjust. Of such the reward is that on them (rests) the curse of the God, of His Angels, and of all mankind;--In that will they dwell; nor will their penalty be lightened, nor respite be their lot;--except for those that repent (even) after that, make amends; For verily God is oft-forgiving, most merciful.” [3:86-89]

It is obvious from these verses that no punishment is to be inflicted by one man or another for apostasy. By no stretch of the imagination can the phrase, "curse of Allah," be interpreted to be a license to murder anyone who he considers to be an apostate. If any such commandment was prescribed it would have been clearly defined as all other punishments are in the Holy Qur'an.

The fact is that the Qur'an even mentions that apostates can be forgiven if they amend and repent. How could they repent if apostates are killed? By forced repentance? Then, does not Qur'an state that there is no compulsion in religion? The one verse that states that there is no compulsion in religion should be enough for a fair minded person to realize that Islam does not teach death to apostates.

Finally, can any one hadith suggesting to kill the apostate invalidate all the Qur'anic verses quoted earlier? We, Muslims, blame the West for anti-Muslim reporting. What do you expect from the West if we provide the sticks to beat us up? Will Muslims object the persecution of the new Muslim convert for his/her apostasy by his/her erstwhile co-religionists? If we believe that it is injustice to kill a new Muslim by non-Muslims for his/her apostasy from his/her former faith, you must give the same just treatment to Muslims who become Christians, Jews, Hindus, atheists, etc. Let Allah call to account those people who left Islam.

A section of People of the Book used a tactic to create doubt among the Muslims in the hope that some of them might thereby be beguiled into repudiating Islam. How could it be possible for non-Muslims to have enacted this plan to entice Muslims to believe one day and reject next, if death was the penalty for apostasy? This tactic of a group of People of the Book mentioned in the Qur’an exposes apostasy law of the Muslim fanatics as un-Islamic. In spite of the deceptive behavior, the above verse cautions Muslims that “perchance they may themselves turn back” truly to Islam. The Qur’an does not rule to kill the apostates.

Abdullah b.Ubayy b.Salul was the leader of the munafiqun (hypocrites). But Prophet (s) took no action against him. Prophet prayed for him and stayed at the grave until he was buried. Those fanatics among us must explain the reason for Prophet (s) not executing the known hypocrites like Abdullah b.Ubayy. Ubbay lived until death plotting to destroy Islam and Prophet knew it. He was not executed for apostasy. This suggests that apostasy law is not a divine law but interpolation by fanatics among us.

Another verse states:

"Those who believe, then reject Faith, then believe (again) and again reject Faith, go on increasing in Unbelief--God will not forgive them nor guide them on the Way.” [4:137]

An apostate cannot enjoy the repeated luxury of believing and disbelieving if punishment is death. A dead man has no further chance of again believing and disbelieving. Furthermore, if taken at face value, this verse indicates that God will only withdraw His guidance after repeated rejections. It does not tell Prophet (s) to kill these apostates. So, what right do these religious authorities and imams have to deprive a person of access to the divine guidance after the first?

While the Qur'an commands the Prophet (s) not to compel people to believe in Islam and invite people with the most kind manner and words, fanatics among us threaten people with death mercilessly to keep them in the Muslim Ummah as hypocrites as if the dishonest hypocrites are better than honest apostates. It is a most heinous crime against Islam and Prophet (s) to manufacture inhuman law of execution of apostate. If the Qur'anic verses tell the Prophet not to compel people to believe in Islam (88:22) and the responsibility to call disbelievers to account rests with God only (1:40), the law of execution of apostates is of human origin.

Initial reluctance of the people of Arabia to accept Islam disturbed Prophet (s). Then the following verse was revealed:

"And had your Lord willed, whoever in the earth would have believed all together, will you then coerce people to become believers?” [10:99]

According to the above verse, even God will not coerce people to become Muslims or remain as Muslim once a person accepts Islam. So, Muslims must condemn the law of apostasy and save innocent Muslims becoming intolerant and violent by the henious indoctrination by fanatics among us because Allah says:

"Who can be more wicked than the one who invent a lie against God,, ” [6:93]

So, religious belief is a personal matter. It is God alone --not the state or religious authorities--who know what is in the heart of the people. If the highest human authority, Prophet (s), cannot call anyone to account for belief or disbelief, no sane person can believe that religious scholars and the state have the authority to execute people for their personal belief.

The Qur'an states:

"A section of the People of the Book say: 'Believe in the morning what is revealed to the believers, Bur reject it at the end of the day; perchance they may (themselves) turn back." [3:72]

Holy Prophet (s) spent his entire life fighting in defense of fundamental human rights that everybody should be free to choose his religion; no one must be physically forced to change religion. Prophet (s) struggled with the Meccan establishment to have the freedom to invite non-believers to Islam. This was consistent with the practices of all other Prophets.

The Qur'an states:

", There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is here forth distinct from error, ”[2:256]

In the light of the above verse, a person has to be insane to belief that Islam prescribes execution for apostasy.

The Qur'an further states:

" Say (Muhammad it is) truth from Lord of all. Whosoever will, let him believe,
and whosoever will, LET him disbelieve.” [18:29]

In no uncertain terms, Allah commands Prophet to allow people to believe and disbelieve. If the Shariah recommends to kill an apostate, this law cannot be Islamic because it contradicts the above two verses.

The Qur'an further states:

"And so, O Prophet, exhort them, thy task is ONLY to exhort; thou canst NOT compel them to believe.” [88:21-22]

"Thy duty is to make the message reach them; it is OUR PART to call them to
account." [13:40]

"Call thou (all mankind) unto thy Sustainer's path with wisdom and goodly exhortation, and argue with them in MOST KINDLY MANNER, ” [16:125]

The Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet (s) require Muslims to think critically. Pagans are repeatedly berated for not questioning, for not using reason, even being compared to dumb animals on several occasions!

"When it is said unto them: 'Follow that which Allah has revealed:' they say: 'Nay! We shall follow the ways of our fathers.' What! Even though their fathers were void of wisdom and guidance?, Deaf, dumb, blind, therefore they have no
sense.” [2:170-171]


"He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the
Book, ” [3:7]

"Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found herein much incongruity.” [4:83]

So, the principle established here is that (1) Muslims are required to think critically and not blindly accept the authority of their scholars, and (2) that the clear message of the Qur'an is to be preferred to any isolated law interpretation which contradicts the Qur'an's clear spirit.

The Qur'an teaches that human beings are individually responsible. So, I believe that Allah would not forgive my sins on the Day of Judgment even if my sins were the result of following the advice of a certain Imam. I would not be able to hide behind any Imam or behind his fatwa even if coming from the most respected and revered Imam of any time. Therefore, views expressed here are my opinions based on the references given. I do not claim to be a scholar, but there are sometimes cases where the violation of the Qur'an is so self-evident that all Muslims can see them.

I believe that inhuman law of apostasy has nothing to do with Islam of the Prophet (s) and it is an interpolation into Islam by fanatics among us and the selfish rulers. There are many reasons for me to believe that execution for apostasy is a manufactured law rather than divine law.

Many Muslims today practice an ironic form of idolatry (in Islamic terminology, shirk, the one sin Allah does not forgive). We, Muslims, criticize other religions for not being truly monotheistic, yet so many of us are guilty of another, more subtle form of shirk: we worship our scholars instead of Allah! We commit the sin for which other people are condemned by God in the Qur'an:

"They have taken as lords besides Allah their rabbis and their monks and the Messiah son of Mary, when they were bidden to worship only one God. Be He glorified from all that they ascribe as partner unto Him!” [9:31]

Now, most classical commentators of the Qur'an agree that the grave transgression alluded to here is not the literal worship of the learned people. According to Tirmidhi, the Holy Prophet was asked to explain this verse by Adi ibn Hatim, a convert (or apostate) from Christianity, and he confirmed that the sin was the people, "considering lawful what their priest declared lawful, even though it was forbidden by Allah." (Al-Jami, 44:9;IJ).

I believe that many Muslims are reluctant to speak up because many "Islamic" cultures today encourage docility and teach to unquestioningly accept the decisions of "qualified" scholars. This is a new phenomenon; in the time of Muhammad (s), ideas were only supported after they had been proven to be in harmony with the Qur'an. Scholars could not just pull rank, as they were expected to be able to argue their cases. In fact, in a famous incident of Islamic history, a humble woman of Medina publicly corrected the Caliph. One day, Hazrat Umar (RA) was announcing a change in the rule mahr, when the woman in the crowd suddenly stopped him in his track by loudly quoting a verse of the Qur'an which contradicted his proposal. He had to relent, saying, "The women of Medina know the Qur'an better than Umar." So, it is time for Muslims to question the imams and scholars if they deviate from the Qur'an and hadiths that do not contradict the Qur'an. We must not only be satisfied by the answer of the scholars, but we must verify the source of their references. Remember, if Hazrath Umar (RA) can make a mistake, ordinary scholars and ordinary people like us also can make greater mistakes.

Doesn’t Islam promote violence, bloodshed and brutality since apostasy is punished with capital punishment?


NOTE: "Islam does not permit taking the life of any innocent peron - ever. Changing one's mind about beliefs is not, by itself, incurring any form of physical punishment according to Islamic Law" - Yusuf Estes


It was only in the last few years I learned there is killing going on in some countries over the issue of family members and others converting to other religions.
Yes! - even in these days! Egypt has cases of Christians killing someone for going to Islam, as well as the other way around.
This is also true, according to the newspapers about someone in Israel going to Islam last year.
And there is even a law in Chanai, India forbidden the public declaration of faith for anyone converting to Islam.


1. Islam for everyone
Islam always deals with everyone in Justice and Equity. Oppression of any person, regardless of their religious belief is totally forbidden in the Islamic State on all levels.
Islam means "willing submission to the Will of God in peaceful obedience", and as such, cannot be forced upon anyone, nor can anyone be converted to Islam against their will.
When the laws of Islam are set in place they exist as a trust to protect God-given rights of everyone, under God's Laws.
Islamic State provides advantages and benefits for all who live within its domain, as well as admonition and punishment for those who violate this trust and oppress others.
2. Apostasy in the time of the prophet
During the time of our prophet, peace be upon him, there were some who "left Islam" and then they were allowed to come back if they wanted to or stay away if they so desired.
One example is from the Muslims who migrated in the first migration to Ethiopia and one of them left Islam, became a Christian (the people of Abyssinia were Christians at that time) and then even told people there he was an "author" of the Quran.
Of course such actions are most despicable and worthy of some kind of reprimand, especially considering the extent of the lies against the Quran and the prophet, peace be upon him.
Yet, nothing was done to this man by the Muslims. His wife, Zainab, could not tolerate his lies and his turning his back against the truth of Islam and she returned back to the Muslims in Arabia.

Other examples include those who entered Islam in the presence of our beloved prophet, peace be upon him, yet when they were returned back to their people (during an agreement between the pagans and Muhammad, peace be upon him) some of them reverted back to their old pagan religion.
Some of them did come back to Islam again later on after Islam came to be the governing state. In this case we observe what can happen in the case of the one who is in Islam and then for whatever reason decides not to stay.

Yet another example that occurred at the time of our blessed prophet, peace be upon him, was that of some who pretended they wanted to be Muslims only to take advantage of the believers, gain some worldly benefits and then abused and slaughtered an entire group of shepherds that memorized the entire Quran, who were caring for them.
They killed them in cold blood and took everything for themselves. The prophet, peace be upon him, was very disturbed over this and ordered them to be severely punished and left to die without any food or water.
3. The proper punishment
From this example we learn how to deal with traitors and terrorists who have no intention of doing anything except evil and spreading fitnah (evil and terror) throughout the land.
Over the centuries since the inception of Islam, we can find cases of people leaving Islam and what was their example and what the prevailing jurists decided in their particular situation.
Most all of these were not punished except in the cases of treason, other acts of violence or for propagating corruption, dissention and promoting evil along with their apostasy.
Those who were found to be causing sedition or of being enemy spies during times of war or advocating the overthrow of Islamic government could understandably be court-martialed and executed.
4. Nowadays
Now let us consider the realities of balance in Islam in light of today's world.
There is no existing Islamic state with a khilafah. This means the hudud (punishment according to Islam) of the Shar'iah (Islamic Law) cannot be appropriately applied.
Additionally, anyone not being a citizen living in an Islamic state could hardly be tried and convicted by the state in a proper manner.
5. Treatment of conversion and apostasy with other civilizations and societies
a. Roman civilization
The Roman civilization would not tolerate someone who accepted the benefits of citizenship and the turned against the government.
These people were made short work of as entertainment for the people, while gladiators tortured and killed them for public sport. (see: Encyclopedia Britanitca; Rome).
b. Jewish incidents
During the years after Jesus, peace be upon him, occurred in the south of Arabia in Yemen. Yusuf Dhu Nawas, a Jewish leader in Yemen, attacked the Christians of Najran ordering them to embrace Judaism or be burned in a pit of fire.
Estimates put the number of those killed between 20,000 and 40,000.
c. Catholic church
The Catholic Church at one time forced people to enter into their religion at the point of the sword and with torture chambers (see: Crusades, 1095 to 1200 A.D.; and Inquisition, 1492 to 1520 A.D.)
Those who wished to remain or change to Islam or Judaism or even another form of Christianity were put to the vilest forms of tortures and even executed.
However, this cannot be said to, in any way, represent the teachings of Jesus or the New Testament.

To conclude, Islam comes from Allah, the actual Creator and Sustainer of the universe.

Islam provides for all situations and dictates what are the rights and limitations.

This all seeks to provide a safe environment for all people to learn the correct message of Almighty Allah and how to live as upright citizens in a place of pleace and mutual cooperation for all humans, regardless of their beliefs.

If a person wants to accept this belief and way of life, then they should be free to do so. If another person would reject this even though the evidence is clearly in favor of Islam, they are free to make this choice but would live in the society still receiving the benefits and services available, such as food, shelter, clothing, protection and charity.

However, they would pay a larger tax on their wealth due to their not being conscripted to serve in the military and so on.

Conditions are really what bring about the different rulings on dealing with those who enter Islam and then leave it, with the clear intention of bringing about dissention and unrest amongst the people.

Also, those who seek to convert people away from Islam into other faiths or to destroy the Islamic government would naturally be considered as traitors and then dealt with as such.

All knowledge is with Allah and for any mistakes I seek Allah's forgiveness and beg the pardon of anyone whom I may have offended in this writing.

Again, may Allah reward you for your effort and accept from you and all of us, ameen.
Salam alaykum,
Yusuf Estes

omo tpia yi o nsun ni?

aly.emeka: « #2 on: Today at 03:31:08 AM »

You said you are no mind reader yet you accuse me of not loving you guys enough. Which one is it?. That's very unusual from a man of your timber and caliber. I am sorry if you feel offended by my questions but I gotta know. I am trying to understand islam very well.

read my response, again. i simply drawn inferences by your established stand on NL, and the emocons. and i believe that i am right.

What is major and minor apostasy and what are the punishments?

apostasy is wrong but not with a carpetted wholesale punishment. in islam, everything has a ruling allowing exception. the greatest sin is not being muslim, even then a muslim can deny islam by tongue, if he fears harms from the hands of powerful entity, in as long as his heart (unseen) is not denying islam. another example, a person may consume alcohol or eat pork (may Allah not put us in the condition to consume them), if preservation of life is assured by both or either. so an apostasy can be experiences, and such an apostate can come back to islam; the reason Allah says those who enter islam and go out of it, and return to it, and then leave it and go back, agin to it and then leave it, ! if the first abandonement results in death, then the verse is defeated and no action can defeat any part of Quran. all apostasy is minor in the sense of its enemity to islam, except the apostasy where the apostates picks up arms against islam and muslims, whereby the prevailing condition is kill or be killed; and islam does not allow muslim to start a war, but when you engage an enemy for the pleasure of Allah, there is no backing down, or turning your back as a coward, except where you are readjusting your strategy of war. so a major apostate is your enemy, an army of shaitan waylaying a believer from the practice of islam, whreby the apostate is now a toxin against your life of islam!

Do you think the Muslim world should adjust the capital punishment for Islamic apostates?

Allah has ordained what He has ordained. apostate who is not a major apostate against your life/living, then nothing is ordered against him/her. however, if he is determined to kill you or hurt you, then your hand is released against him/her; a natural thing or reaction, when you are under pressure. if a man comes to my house and wishes to take my property or a life, then i am allowed to bear the full force of my energy and hope to preserve my life and lives of my loved ones on him/her; this is the same thing.
should you adjust your process in this case if you are in my shows, allowing the man to take all our possessions and your women folks too, even turning you to a girl? i will die first before a person takes a single thing that belong to me, except the thing wants to go with him! until then, i will defend my humanity with my sweat and blood and life if need be!


@RickyBlacK: since apostasy is not a sin that people should be uniformly killed for, except the apostate who takes up arm to kill you, then there is no need to bring about the question you had posted above; an apostate who wishes to kill you, if you wish to preserve your life, as in all conditions of somebody threatening your existence, you should threaten their existence. so it is kill or be killed.

why so much insults?

This is too much; becoming enemies by sincere disagreement is not a good quality.

@Tpia:

Call branom, olabowale, ogaga or anybody else you feel is on your side. All of una go enter latrine together.

Aburo, I thought Latrine is a thing of the past? I havent seen that since elementary school!

Abi won shi ni ni New Zealand ni?

@Tpia: « #115 on: Yesterday at 04:27:15 AM »

Quote
He is a Christian by the way. if he had been a muslim, the whole of america would have said its terrorism!

^^ no they wouldnt.

Do you have a proof? My proof is the same expression used on the guy because he is Black. Since black people are assumed by the whites in power to be angry because of past injustices and discriminations, the Muslims will be assumed that they suffer from being ostracised, hence resorting into terrorism to express themselves! Tpia, do you know America and her treatment of muslims? I live here and I am a muslim. I aught to know better than you. Abi?


@focused123 (m): « #116 on: Yesterday at 11:36:57 AM »

Quote
by Allah, i know honor killing is not part of Islam!.

That is a lie.

Proof me wrong from Quran and or ahadith. By the way, ahadith that does not find its fountain head in the Quran is not an authentic ahadith: Surah Huud, Verses 14 to 20, when you read the Tafsir of it! An waiting, focused123.

Aloy.Emeka, I am not a mind reader, but from your established modus operandi and perception of Islam, it is hard press to believe that you have any good intention in your heart in stock for Islam. Hence, I say your love for muslims, does not reach even the base of your tongue.

You failed to bolden the fact that whoever you quoted pointed to the fact that apostasy was even categorized as major and minor, where major is "harmful" to the body of Islam, and that there is no Quranic proof that all apostasy must be killed.

I guess that you live in Nigeria, or in the West that you are talking about? Let me say this to you; the american natives that I know in Islam, do not talk with their words kept under their tongue, unlike the foreign born. So none of them will lie about Islam. I know. I talk to one at least, daily!

They will not be pandering to anyone; maybe foreign borns, but not native born.

@Skyone: « #490 on: Yesterday at 08:12:55 PM »

Mr Olabowale when are you going to start posting meaningful thread on Nairaland, pls when? Zimbabwe's economic situation is currently compounded by the greedy Europeans who wants to dominate the agricultural output of the nation but not following the required due process structured by the government of Zimbabwe.

The greedy Europeans are christians, so I rest by case!

Your research failed you again on the genocide created by the tutsi and utsi, among them are 70% pagan worshipers, 20% muslim and about 10% christians. During this uprising in Rwanda the christians were the only ones trying to curb down the pandemic killings of innocent people by consulting the United Nation on a daily basis and that's why you have many churches being burnt down. Of cousre the opposite was exercised by the muslims which was not astonishing anyway.

What I saw on TV, was the French Christian leadership abandoned their black house helps, when the french military came to rescue them. It was the muslims who help and got people into their masjids as safe havens.

You talked about South- Africa but you forgot to mention the outrage of HIV, CHOLERA, TUBARCULOSIS that erodes the nation of Bangledesh, Pakistan, Tajistan, Afghanistan name it. Your hero mohamed and his teaching of islam is what brought the senseless killings and instability in the muslim nation today. Only fromm the Islamic world you will find people senselessly tieing explosives round their waist to kill and commit suicide all in the name of big brother allah.

You asked me about the present time; I wonder f there is a country outside Africa, specifically the ones you mentioned above, that suffered HIV, AIDS, and others as southern african countries! Skyone, you have no problem not telling the truth, I guess! The same afghanistan that frowns on illicit sex prior to 2001? I know many women in South Africa who are so concern that when they go out, they hurry back in to their homes, afraid some guy is going to snatch them up and rape them! You must not be listening to skyone News, at all.

And dont throw yourself into ellfire by your own deeds!

My dearest sister, thank Allah that you are strong enough to defend me, against Skyone. May Allah reward you greatly.

@Skyone; Alhaji Pakulopa made a nikah on my mother before they slept together. And am not the first child, so my position is very remote to being called bastard. I am not from adultery or fornication; Zina of any kind.

And I shall be heading to 9ja, and not Saudi Arabia or Iraq. I am not from either. They are like all other muslim majority countries, and nothing special about either. Emi yoruba naija boy awa ma gbe ni ajoo, again, instead of ilee, nigeria after usa? No way man.