₦airaland Forum

4 Living Creatures and 24 Elders
Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Revelation 5:13)

First, what throne? Considering that this is revelation, a book of the Bible that was written long time after Jesus departed this earth, how did they worship him? You know the Muslim, when he mentions creature, he mentions the name. In Surah Naml, (Ants) it did not say creature, and in there it say Hoopoo, it did not just say bird! I find the Revelation verse above so generic it defiles honesty. How is it possible that they are worshipping him after he left, except that it makes a good story and you dont think that we will critique it!

$Osis is full of holy ghost this morning. The Question from Abuzola was direct enough, before your spindarella trick about it! Abuzola asked you to show where the disciple after Jesus said Jesus said that he should be worshipped as God. The other way is this, did Jesus say that he should be worshipped as God?

If you dont know the answer, you are a big woman (young girl), just say so. Spinning around in the fashion of "spinning the bottle" makes everyone woozy. A story that did not come from "the storyteller" could not be taking as the truth, especially when he could have told the story the way the "liars" said he told it, rather he chose to tell his own story differently!

Just for fun filled morning: What are the four living creatures? Which Angels worshipped him: Gabreil who was sent to strengthen him?

Osisi, you better not turn to pure pagan with idol in heart and idol on the dresser! All these worship remind me of the statement we have here "I am not worthy!" And another for good measure " I worship the ground he walks on". These are the statements of "believers" aka American Christians and even the Jews have adopted it!

Nezan does not read. The below was from my fisrt post this morning:

One thing I know is that there is no sin greater than disbelief in One GOD ALLAH! And in the secular societies and individual persons anywhere in the world can be pushed enough by the evildoer(s), that this most meek person in the most liberal society can turn deadly and kill of the person who is not relenting on doing evil!

Nezan is just throwing dirt all over the places. God is a spirit now for him so he worships Him in spirit. But Nezan conveniently forgot about Jesus! Look here mister, am not a Christian so I paid attention to the Fleshy "Jesus!" He was and still your god, aint he?

Well then, your whole "spiritual" argument falls flat on its face!

And you suggested that Muslim does not have any spiritual worship because the muslim washes his "body" before he prays, and he claims that even the washing removes sins. Now lets analyse these; If a mere washing removes some sins, then the muslim must truly have a great belief and his spiritual strength in the mere washing must be equal at least your belief that jesus blood "washes" away your sins! You have to kill Jesus for yours, while the Muslim needs to get mere clean water.

If the washing, ablution is preparation for a greater event known as Salah, then this event, Salah must at least have a forgiveness level than the ablution. All those who make salah face Kaaba. Those in Nigeria do this my facing the east and not Aba or Onisha. Their hearts (body) and Souls (Spiritual part of the body) are directed and immensed into the Salah to The Lord God Creator Allah Who they cant see and never walked the surface of the earth, never was killed and never was in need of anything! Is this not a great spiritual element, effort? I have not even spoken about Zakat, Sadaqah, Saum (fasting for minimum 29 and maximum 30 days, every year), Hajii and Ummrah! And others and the Big daddy of them all is the Actual declaration whereby all possible things to adore are killed of in the soul, from the heart and by the mouth accepting Allah alone and Muhammad as the Last messenger/Prophet (AS)!


Now tell me how the Christians have spirituality and the Muslims do not have a purer and better spirituality? How do you even worship in spirit as a christian? Tell us, what do you say and who is it that you are connect to in your spirituality? Which of the three gods? Father, Jesus or ghost? Who exatly? We know that of the Muslims. They Use Arabic Quran as the source of the ever flowing fountain/word! We know that the are focused on Allah, in the way that Muhammad (AS) taught.

What do you use: English Bible, Yoruba Bible, Hebrew Bible, Aramaic Bible, Syric Bible? What version; KJV, NIV, ASV, Catholic Douwy? What exactly?


Interestly, I have been copying the Arguments on Nairaland about the authenticity or Corruptibiity of NIV Version of the Bible. Thanks JeSoul. Thanks to all the contributors. I am keeping them for future refernces and shall use it when appropriate!

Thank you. Abuzola has more knowledge than me. My presentation is based on my knowledge. I do know that not everyone who left Islam is to be killed the moment that he leaves Islam. If that is the case it will go against 2 verses of Quran and there would have been abrogations of them. But at least one of them, 2: 256 is a almost at the end of revelation revealed verse!

The other verse states about people renouncing and coming back, again, until it seems as if t is a play/game! Now could that have been possible if killing is ordained the moment the person left Islam for the very first time? Obviously, not.

mezan go read my summation on what happens if a wife leaves islam, before you start running around like headless chicken! Something interesting happened yesterday: this young woman became a muslim to proof to her Muslim Intended (the whole relation is up to this point without any sexual intercourse or the usual boyfriend/girlfriend functionaries of Kissing or grabbing, etc), that she loves him.

They have known each other for about 2 years, but definitely over a year. The beautiful woman of 24 was amazed how this guy have not one time demanded sex from her, part of the reasons she became facinated. So she gravitated on her own and started cultivating friends with female muslims to know about islam, from woman's perspective. Finally she attended Jumuah prayer, right there in Lagos. That was less than 2 months ago.

She has become a full fledged muslims, now, who stated that even if the Intende man and her are not married, she will remain Islam, because she is now a Muslim for Allah and the guy has nothing to do with it, now. Her mother and her father are going to fast for the very first time as herself, because she has brought life into their home. Her older sister is now considering becoming Muslim woman herself, in South Africa where she lives with her fiance.


Her Intented was telling her to be patient with her parents, because if her father sees a great improvement in her, and he turns to Islam, the whole family will beome Muslim in one singlesweep. Allah brough Seyi to become the leader, leading her family into the light of the Creator, Al Nur! (Nur is Light, Al Nur, is a name of Allah and it means The Light).

@Sleek29 and Nezan: It seems to me at least, that you guys can see through your lead glasses! A person is not killed merely for renouncing Islam. Period. If a person who used to be muslim is killed after he is no more Muslim, there are other reasons for the killing and it will never be because he merely left Islam. Period.

It may be that he began to malign Islam and he refuses to stop after he has been warned, repeatedly. Other reasons, at least one of them may be that he is seen as an evildoer, and a means of bringing chaos into the society. His renouncing Islam is at least equals in degree of evilness to a person who continues to unjustly kill innocent souls, with remorse and no intent to stop doing it. Should such a person be allowed to remain in a society that her people wish peace and no discourse? No. That might have been the case of the malaysian family or the Middle eastern countries that you keep beating their drums ever so loudly! I do not know, and I do not live in these societies to know the truth, the mindset of their population, and reason for killing the apostates!

One thing I know is that there is no sin greater than disbelief in One GOD ALLAH! And in the secular societies and individual persons anywhere in the world can be pushed enough by the evildoer(s), that this most meek person in the most liberal society can turn deadly and kill of the person who is not relenting on doing evil!

And all and any of the evil that that man is killed for is less, and definitely not as great as DISBELIEF in ALLAH!.

sleek29 read the dialogue between me and bastage.

Nezan, ngbo ogbeni, whats spiritual in making 3 gods becoming 1 God? At best it is a wrong concept. At worst, it is magic and thats worse. But both ideas are lies.

@sleek29: « #71 on: August 18, 2009,

they always like to dodge issues, whenever i ask them a simple question, is killing in islam justifiable? you get stupid answers like What about the crusades?, ISLAM IS THE DEVIL'S BIGGEST RELIGION. PERIOD

I answered your questions over and over, again. Now, again, the killings specified by Allah in the Quran and the ones truly specified by the Messenger (AS), are all justifiable! Should there be a no to your Lord, if you are a true believer? Should you not obey the Messenger who you should love more than yourself?

The human speaker for Allah were the Prophets (AS), in their times, for their to their peoples, whom the messages were directed to. Allah says Muhammad Rasulullah. Thats enough for every believer to follow the prophet (AS) without any question. A believer says I hear and I Obey!

I am hoping that she does not ask her patients to kneel down and pray to Jesus and send them home to die or at least continue to live with the sickness? You better have a fat business insurance. Life Insurance will cover anything in the many law suits you will have on your hand. I already warn you as somebody who at least wish you well!

I dislike the word Infidel. The Christians have it in their Book. Unfortunately, they are forcing the muslims to use it. What is the arab word for infidel? If no muslim can tell me, he/she should not use it. I hate copying the Keferis in a manner that is unislamic, and hard demeaning humanity.

I think the kiriyos always in the kneeling position with eyes closed when they are responding to the muslims. You see why the christians are always off the wall when they respond to the muslims?

And by the way, those who are north of Kaaba will have no choice but face the south, towards the kaaba, rather than facing east which will be away "direction" having no Kaaba in that direction!

Nezan cant read anything. Yet he truncated a story and just gave us a middle part at best passing up as a full story. And when the full story is presented, he says; please olabowale, what are you saying?

Typical keferi guy always play possom when its convenient.

Surah Nisaa: from 83 to 93. Read Sleek29 for understanding. Look and see what you are missing; mercy, forgiveness, and the most is OBEDIENCE!

4:83 Muhsin Khan: Then fight (O Muhammad SAW) in the Cause of Allah, you are not tasked (held responsible) except for yourself, and incite the believers (to fight along with you), it may be that Allah will restrain the evil might of the disbelievers. And Allah is Stronger in Might and Stronger in punishing.

4:85 Muhsin Khan: Whosoever intercedes for a good cause will have the reward thereof, and whosoever intercedes for an evil cause will have a share in its burden. And Allah is Ever All-Able to do (and also an All-Witness to) everything.

4:86 Muhsin Khan: When you are greeted with a greeting, greet in return with what is better than it, or (at least) return it equally. Certainly, Allah is Ever a Careful Account Taker of all things.[b]

4:87 Muhsin Khan: [b]Allah! La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Surely, He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection about which there is no doubt. And who is truer in statement than Allah?

4:88 Muhsin Khan: Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made to go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance).

4:89 Muhsin Khan: They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal (like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, till they emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back (from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them.

4:90 Muhsin Khan: Except those who join a group, between you and whom there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with their breasts restraining from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. Had Allah willed, indeed He would have given them power over you, and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you, and fight not against you, and offer you peace, then Allah has opened no way for you against them.

4:91 Muhsin Khan: You will find others that wish to have security from you and security from their people. Every time they are sent back to temptation, they yield thereto. If they withdraw not from you, nor offer you peace, nor restrain their hands, take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them. In their case, We have provided you with a clear warrant against them.

4:92 Muhsin Khan: It is not for a believer to kill a believer except (that it be) by mistake, and whosoever kills a believer by mistake, (it is ordained that) he must set free a believing slave and a compensation (blood money, i.e Diya) be given to the deceased's family, unless they remit it. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you and he was a believer; the freeing of a believing slave (is prescribed), and if he belonged to a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance, compensation (blood money - Diya) must be paid to his family, and a believing slave must be freed. And whoso finds this (the penance of freeing a slave) beyond his means, he must fast for two consecutive months in order to seek repentance from Allah. And Allah is Ever All-Knowing, All-Wise.

@Sleek29: This is a more complete read of of 9/5, read it from 9/3 to 9/6, at least. You see that to truncate a complete message to some part of it in the middle and pass it as the whole story, is the typical disingenuous attitude of disbelievers to Islam.

9:3 Muhsin Khan: And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to mankind on the greatest day (the 10th of Dhul-Hijjah - the 12th month of Islamic calendar) that Allah is free from (all) obligations to the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) and so is His Messenger. So if you (Mushrikun) repent, it is better for you, but if you turn away, then know that you cannot escape (from the Punishment of) Allah. And give tidings (O Muhammad SAW) of a painful torment to those who disbelieve.

9:4 [b]Muhsin Khan: Except those of the Mushrikun with whom you have a treaty, and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you. So fulfill their treaty to them to the end of their term. Surely Allah loves Al- Mattaqun (the pious - see V.2:2).

9:5 Muhsin Khan: Then when the Sacred Months (the Ist, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun (see V.2:105) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat), and give Zakat, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

9:6 Muhsin Khan: And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Quran), and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

And I waited for babaearly, the Christian who is Quranic Scholar to cull out "Flat" from the Quran to describe the Earth and I did not see it. And my comment about the muddy spring/water, is simply this Allah says the "person" get to a place where the sunset in a muddy spring. It is not to say that every water, but then what do you observe when the DYINGrays of sun hit the water surface at sunset? It is always dark; Murky look!

Please make your own observation, and report to us, babaearly. The Ocean looks dark at night, the reason they say "like two passing ships" expressions. Just imagine before it becomes pitched black, it is murky, and thats when the sun is setting.

Nezan are you insane when you shag your wife? I thought you said she is your wife?

@Illusion2: Then I willtake you on. You see, my Islam is what tamed me. But since you have claimed (And I know that you lied) that you are in my age group, then we should make a date, somewhere that I could really deal with you: Nigeria.

@$Osisi: None of the ills that you counted I practiced. But I think you must also know that those people whose ideas are the overwhelming Ideas at any time are always copied. Let me share this with you; Geece used to rule a good part of the world at a time, the whole of Europe almost adopted their ways. Hedonic attitude is still practised in holiday resorts, in the caribbeans till today. The adage when you are in rome you behave like romans is very popular, and you do not have to be in rome before you start behaving like romans, you just have to be in their sphere of influence. Now it is no surprise that all that you listed you have some muslims indulging in them.

Am sure if Geoffrey Darma, Kassey, etc and indeed New York City's son of Sam were Muslims, you guys would have said Islam tell people to eat humans. But you see no muslims have accused Christianity anything from these people. Thats the difference. And Osisi, I am a big boy and I do not cry like a baby. My cry is a man cry. You know men do cry, right? If anyone insults me, if I am in good mood, I let it ride. If I am in a different mood, I will respond. Thats human. Thats not pediatric. To be angry is not Childlike. I will not say childish, if thats what you mean.

Afterall, even when your god was angry enough he called people fools, even though he had warned that those who called people fools will enter hell. So how do you think I cant be upset? You silly brother lying about his age when i know that he is still wet behind the ears. And the only reason he can do that is to give him a leeway to insult me. I am not bothered by that anyhow.


When your brothers and sisters the soldiers of Christ abuse me, I should not respond, all the time, always? Thats not possible. I am just an ordinary human being. My actions fit that.

Lo joko ogbeni. I am way past your thinking. I have been on this earth long enough to know the gimmick of keferi like you who wants somebody to watch another keferi lie on Jesus.

Unlike you, I have listened to the darn Kufara and i know he is a darn liar. You have a wool over your eyes before, he will just have to reinforce it on you, but me, what will I need to listen to his garbage for?

Just a moment ago, I was thinking, without being religions; the idea of a worker having to be responsible to three equal masters, 100% to each one at the same time is impossible versus the worker who only takes order from a single master. These are the scenerios of Christianity's Trinity and Islam's One complete God. You can wrap your rotten wares in fancy wrappings, it will only look good, until you unwrap it.

Three gods becoming One God the Creator is a pretty rotten idea! Everything else under it is in the same light.

afraid? you think I will be? I have the Sword of Allah in my Hand; its not possible for me to be afraid of anything, no 3 gods can scare me. and the worshippers of 3 gods cant do me anything.

and when I meet you Illusion2, and you are not as old as you are now claiming, then I will put my foot in your mouth, because of your lies and the insults you throw at me. I will be angry then! right there in your territory, so that I can whip the person in my age that I really need to whip, who didnt teach you!

All these places i do not live in them. I have heard Muslims submitted to being whipped by other muslims in the Tristate (northeast) before because of sexual crimes. I am of the position that there is no true Islamic state in the world, today because there is no kalifah. So your statement is completely wrong.

I am the kalifah of myself, today and to those under me. My actions are my responsibilities.

So illustion when i make your day miserable in 9ja no one will say that i abuse a little child!

@illusion2: Then you are bold. Am not.

and when a muslim respond only in words, the Keferis are all out in full force to blame a mere word.

@C2H5OH: My barrel is not empty, but with crude oil and refined products and fragrances, grains, etc. You know it will not make noise.

Its morning time in New Zealand. Its Wednesday.

my father is dead (ra). As I have said, your parents must be very bad people to not have told you that you do not tell a man who is old enough to be your father "agbaya" especially when I did not talk to you. Nigeria is raising bad and evil generation. Oh thats from the Bible, when Jesus referred to the Jews.

when i get to Nigeria, I pray you let me see you with your father, for possible employment from him. And maybe I will ask him if he gave you good home training. Then you will see how am going to reach to him. You are not the one I will have to deal with you then!

this gutter boy thinks every male is useles like the ones in his family. Rape and illegal sex and child abuse is not in my blood. Only evil people do those things. I think you know who those people are in your life. Animal running around in human clothing. And nothing says that I cant talk about sex, as long as is islamically legal.

this ode boy is comparing me to OBJ: I am a muslim man and OBJ or whatever he is is keferi kiriyo lason lason like you.

ma binu. But am still as old as your father and my family does not clean cars. Your father can pay my salary: say about 2 to 5 thousand USD per hour? And am trying to be very conservative here? I will bankrupt your father in less than a week at my price!

I will love to meet your father and lets find out. I will be home in December! Ara e o ya. shuiiun.

Look at the son of a useless man. If your father is bold at under sixty am not. Ko si apari niron mi. At least am not bald.