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Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:43pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
30,000 did not die, actual figures not known, but realistic source estimates quote about 10,000 dead.

Hey fool ! About 20 million Russian civilians died in Russian homeland during German invasion.

About 150,000 Algerians died during Islamic terrorism war
.

Cool story.

We arent talking about Russia or Algeria... we are talking about Nigeria.

And the lesson we learn from you is "how not to get kicked out of 46 towns and cities and let rag tag rebels establish a caliphate the size of belgium in your country"

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:40pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
Still replying the same hogwash in 2016..... WOW!

Have you seen the raw data of these vessels?

We have all seen the raw data of your Frigates, and we can affirm that they cannot be classified as modern.

Or you want me to embarrass you with facts?

So according to you, his facts could not be challenged, your commission members not wanting to be embarrassed further chased him off to save face.

Cool..... Still your frigates are relics.

Lafayette, Charles De Gaulle and F100 all use the same combat sweet - fact

So if the valour class is obsolete then so are they

So you are now so desperate that you are straight up telling me what I said? The man in question REFUSED TO RETURN TO THE STAND - he ran away.

Dont let jelousy drive your behavior, I am sorry that you are stuck with the Aradu... but dont attack our Valour Class because of it!!

2 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:35pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
Sharraap!!

Prove your Frigates are modern?

Yes, for their generation of ships they are modern.

All major frigates from France built in the late 1990's and early 2000's use those systems.

I find it ironic that a Nation whos youngest Frigate is 36 years old talks to use about "modern"

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:33pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
First of, congrats on putting Grand-Pa Drak back to sea.

Errm.... According to defenceweb.co.za the SAAF only has one pilot who can land at sea. Citations provided last year. Funny how you let him go show of in India...... You want to go impress India with you obsolete Frigate, and your lone pilot. A country that builds world class world class Frigates like the INS Kochi and has more Frigates than the combined sum total of SAN vessels (including small boats).

Good-luck!

Thanks, now if only you had the skill to get Grand-Pa Aradu back to sea for more than 5 years in a row grin

No, defenceweb did not say that... go read the article yourself.

Yes, India and China are obviously very impressed with us... they invited us to take part in major exercises. Clearly they want to practice against advanced stealth platforms.

This post of yours reeks of jealousy... SAN goes off to train with India and China and this is your response?

Pathetic, truly pathetic.

3 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:29pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
All those insurgents are now dead from Nigerian army bullets ! That is what counts, NA rules 100% of Nigerian land.

[/size]

So the 30 000 dead and 1,6 million people without homes dont count?

Or the 46 ruined and destroyed towns?

Pathetic military

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:28pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
[size=13pt]

.
New South African navy chief of staff has ZERO combat or navy ops experience

"He points to the incoming SA Navy Chief, currently Rear Admiral Samuel Hlongwane, as one of the appointments that will not improve the maritime arm of service.

He is a counter-intelligence officer with no combat or operational experience and has no expertise in actual naval operations."

.[/size]

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=33375:sandf-promotions-questioned&catid=111:sa-defence#at_pco=smlwn-1.0&at_si=569a6c8a6afeb0f4&at_ab=per-2&at_pos=0&at_tot=1
.

Augugbug... I thought you were a "military researcher"

Howcome you dont know what a "Cheif of Staff" does?

If you did, you would realize you just made a very st.upid post grin

3 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:20pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
.
[size=15pt] Lessons for the redundant inactive sleep at home SANDF...[/size]
.

[size=15pt]
Is the lesson: "dont let rag tag insurgents capture 46 of your towns, make 1,6 million people homeless and kill 30 000"?[/size]

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:19pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
We've seen the data of the ships....... It clearly states that they cannot be classified as modern.

You want another round of embarrassment after the bangui beating?

So the Layfette, Charles DeGaul and Saudi F100 cannot be classified as modern?

Again, you are the foo.l here... relying on the testimony of a man who got chased off the stand at the Sereti Comission grin

2 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:18pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
......And you took along the only SAAF pilot who can land at sea?".

Hopelessness of a defence force

Who said only one can land at sea?

Drakensberg is operational again, training has resumed.

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:17pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
$300 million Valour frigate with 1972 rusted old obsolete main gun 76mm, 20 year old obsolescent combat suite, ZERO torpedoes, and ZERO anti-submarine helicopter, plus $40 million Super Lynx helicopter with ZERO sonar ZERO torpedoes ZERO anti-submarine warfare capability
.

- 76mm is a Super-Rapid

- Combat suite is the same as frontline French Frigates, their flagship and the Saudi Flagship

- Does anyone in Africa have subs? No? then we dont need torpedoes cool

- Nigeria has ZERO ASW helo as well

- $40 Lynx is more capable and advanced than anything in your arsenal.

You are a jealous little boy augubug... You dream of the day when Nigeria could have a vessel of such power and glory!

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:14pm On Jan 16, 2016

agaugust:
Stop using Wikipedia as source, it is unreliable. Any fraudster like Patches can edit Wikipedia.

Btwn, South African corruption is both local and international, Nigerian corruption is local.

It is South Africa that bribed Sweden's SAAB to do Gripen jet deal, and bribed a whole FIFA top executive team of managers to get 2010 world cup hosting rights that South Africa did not technically qualify to host....your bribery is on world records page, you ruined Sepp Blatters career as FIFA president....South Africa's SPECTACULAR corruption enters Guinness book of records o !
.

1. Nigeria has a higher corruption index - no words will ever change this fact

2. No bribery was ever proven in the Gripen deal

3. No bribery was ever proben with FIFA

This post of yours is nothing but emotional ramblings

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 5:02pm On Jan 16, 2016

Henry240:
Kindly desist from derailing this thread.

It has now emerged that as many as 5,000 Nigerian troops
were deployed to Angola and that they saw action in
various theatres across the then war-blighted country.
Writing in an article entitled “MOSCOW’S NEXT TARGET IN
AFRICA;Paying the Price for Angola“, Robert Moss clearly
indicates that ….
QUOTE:
“The Nigerians are said to be heavily involved in Angola.
Western intelligence sources report that Nigerian troops
were present at battalion strength when the MPLA and the
Cubans pushed south last year. According to UNITA
sources in Paris, the Nigerian strength has since been
reinforced.
UNITA sources have tapes of radio intercepts showing that
at least 5,000 Nigerian troops have been deployed in
Angola. They are operating as far south as Mocamedes,
and are also based in Lobito, Luanda and the eastern
diamond mining town of Henrique de Carvalho.

https://beegeagle./2010/12/12/nigerias-best-kept-military-secret-5000-troops-fought-in-angolas-first-civil-war/

Questioning a statement is not de-railment.

I was just curious because no legitimate sources cite your involvement.

And, if this is true that would men your Army was involved in the Angolan Civil War not the Angolan Border War.

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 9:25am On Jan 15, 2016

Henry240:
Nigerian Armed Forces Remembrance Day
Celebrate with Niigeria, today is our Armed Forces Remembrance day.

Officers and men of the Nigerian Armed Forces have fought
in various wars and taken part in many peace keeping
operations, defensive duties and internal security duties.
These include

Wars including:
* The First World War
* The Second World War
* The Nigerian Civil War
*Border War, Angola

Peace keeping/enforcement operations in
* The Congo
* Tanzania
* Liberia
* Sierra Leone
* Lebanon
* Darfur
* The former Yugoslavia
* Mali
* Ivory-Coast
*Guinea
* Somalia

Defensive duties including
* The Bamileke Rebellion
* Chadian Rebels (1982/83)
* The Bakassi Peninsula

Internal Security duties including
* The Tiv Rebellion
* The Western Region Crisis
* The Niger-Delta Crisis (1966)
* The Agbekoya Rebellion
* The Niger Delta Crisis (2002)
* The Boko Haram Insurgency.

Anti-Robbery operations, including:
* Operation Sweep
* Rapid Response Squad
* Operation Yaki
* Operation Messa

Since when were you guys involved in the border war?

The only factual involvement I know of is the transfer of 8 Migs from Nigeria to Luanda in the mid-1970's.

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 9:04am On Jan 15, 2016

Henry240:
1. The Nigerian system is not corrupt. It's a far less corrupt system than that of RSA

2. Do you even have a functional brain at all? All links regarding Nigerian purchases have been provided. They are all in this thread.

1. Not according to the corruption index

2. You have shown to have some of the units you claim, but there is zero evidence for the "500 or so" units you claim

3 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 9:15pm On Jan 14, 2016

Henry240:
Evidence exists. Conclusive does not exist in Nigeria's defence procurement, we do not issue RFIs or Tenders. We run a secret defence procurement scheme. This is basic knowledge.

For example, tell me the number of MI-17s the Air Force got last year?

How many did we order in 2015?

1. If by "secret" you mean "corrupt" then yes it is,

2. So you admit then that you are simply inventing numbers?

4 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:29pm On Jan 13, 2016

agaugust:
Here it is.....yöür runaway SANDF...

The agency said at least nine SA soldiers were killed.
"I saw the bodies of six South African soldiers. They had all
been shot," a Reuters witness said. Later, he saw three more
bodies in burned-out South African military vehicles.
Amy Martin of the UN's humanitarian agency, OCHA, told the
BBC World Service that the SA troops had retreated to their
barracks and were seeking safe passage to the airport.
Seleka spokesperson Eric Massi said the rebels had broken
through a line of South African soldiers during their push
into the city."

.

Ok, 3000 men pushed back 200.

Thats not "fleeing"

This, however is "fleeing"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HY36o7O6LpY

4 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:17pm On Jan 13, 2016

agaugust:
[size=15pt]
10/10 post [/size]
.

You come out of hiding again?

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:17pm On Jan 13, 2016

Henry240:
- the battles are not important, we delivered on the war. We delivered in 6 weeks, an area the size of Scotland. That's an amazing military feat unmatched in Africa. We have the best Infantry soldiers in Africa.

- Chad secured their side of the border, operating in border towns of Dikwa and Gambaru-Ngala. Operations amounting to only 7% of the AO. We funded the chadian operations, we also provided air-support to them. You should go back to school to learn what facts are.

- the SANDF is an incompetent force, the CAR proves this. While the Nigeria Army was conducting operations in the North-East, our troops were carrying out operations in Liberia, Sudan, Guinea.

- Bozize fled, mission failed.

- You had 20 000 men, tanks, artillery, jets, attack helicopters... and yet you got kicked out of 41 cities and towns by 4000 rag-tag boko haram

- Been done many times, SADF in Op Savannah, or by Mike Hoars merc's in DRC during the Simba uprising. Lets not even talk about WW2

- You had to beg chad to operate INSIDE OF NIGERIA. And you were only able to turn the tide of the war once you let chad into your country.

- How does the CAR prove that? 200 men stopping 3000+ men is incompetant? A casualty to kill ratio of 1:30 is incompetant?

Our mission was never to keep Bozize in power... it was to protect him... and since he is still alive, I would say that is a success

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:14pm On Jan 13, 2016

Henry240:
Accroding to Eric Massi (Seleka. Spokesman) South-African Special Forces were brushed aside.

- Already provided.

Does he actually say that?

No he does not.

Liar.

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:13pm On Jan 13, 2016

Henry240:
Actually they are.
"Seleka's Massi said the rebels had broken through a line of
South African soldiers during their push into the city."

A source with the United Nations in Bangui said South
African troops were preparing to leave the country.
"They took substantial losses and have asked for French
support to load their troops and take off," said the source.

© 2015 Thomson/Reuters. All rights reserved.

www.newsmax.com/t/world/article/496069

Eric Massi is the spokesman of Seleka

- You cannot protect a man who isn't there, it's just not possible.

- Just like their SANDF trainers, they fled!

Who dominates the grounds in Nigeria's campaign against terrorists...... Nigeria!!

Ok, so where does it say that we "fled" or "abandoned" our position?

No where.

You are so utterly pathetic

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 1:12pm On Jan 13, 2016

Henry240:
Zuma says South Africa "rejects any attempt to seize power by force," and
that the soldiers' deaths will not keep the country from working to prevent
the overthrow of elected government.

m.voanews.com/a/un-chief-condemns-rebel-seizure-in-car/1627865.html

Here is your illiterate President telling us the objective of SANDF troops is to prevent an overthrow of elected government. The objective of SANDF troops in the CAR was to keep Bozize in power, which of course you failed miserably at.

"Seleka spokesperson Eric Massi said the rebels had broken
through a line of South African soldiers during their push
into the city."

SANDF objectives in the CAR

- Keep Bozize in power - Failed

- Protect Bozize - Failed

- Train CAR troops - Failed

- SANDF troops suffered a crushing defeat, left their equipments in the CAR and fled.

South Africa’s involvement in the security of the Central African Republic followed President Bozoze’s request to South Africa to assist the Central African Republic’s Defence Force (FACA) to upgrade their military capabilities.

SANDF deployment in the CAR is divided into two mainly OP MORERO – a unit of the SANDF Special Forces that was deployed in CAR to provide VIP protection to President Bozize and Operation Vimbesela – the SANDF’s mission involved in the refurbishment of the military bases and the training of the military personnel on that country.

http://www.dfa.gov.za/docs/2011pq/pq78.html

Protect Bozize - Success (is he alive? yes? Ok then)

Train his men - incomplete

Refurbish bases - incomplete

Protect SANDF personel and equipment - complete

A successfull mission - all objectives met.

You can try to create a mission that never existed - but facts remain facts

2 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 9:21am On Jan 13, 2016

africaken:
how many times have i seen posting even the overan on burundia camp in this forum,without anyone raising an issue.if you want to post grotesque pictures of dead soldiers,its your own prerogative.gentlemen post weapons and equipment capture by a foe. SANDF isn't holy than thou if it messes up we will comment about it and no matter the fairy tale you tell us we will critique

The problem here is that you are "critical" of an action by the SANDF - despite us providing you a plethora of information on the topic that states otherwise.

You lack any real material with which to critique the SANDF so you have gone about "critiquing" in a pathetically passive-aggressive manner by posting captured equipment.

So, let me give you some reading material:

1. Scope of military support to the CAR
http://www.dfa.gov.za/docs/2011pq/pq78.html

2. Rebel account of the battle, gathered by Journalists inside Bangui
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2013/04/03/sa-soldiers-carved-us-up-say-rebels

3. Brief summery by respected military researcher and Janes corrisponded
http://www.iol.co.za/sundayindependent/how-deadly-car-battle-unfolded-1.1493841#.UWrq40rhdiJ

Notice that the salient facts of #2 and #3 are the same - the Rebels suffered heavy casualties, their attack on the captial was halted etc.

Now, was the way that we handled the aftermath of the battle right? No it was not, but that was a political issue, South Africa has to be very careful about our behavior on the inter-state level due to the bad reputation we built during Apartheid and again with Lesotho in the 1990's so we cant just go a smash the sh1t out of whoever we want whenever we want... we have to ask permission now :-(

But still, the SANDF was prepared to go back in:

- Gripen, Rooivalk, Oryx and approx a battalions worth men were forward deployed to our defacto FOB in Uganda in anticipation of going back into CAR
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=30633:rooivalks-gripens-and-troops-were-sent-to-the-car&catid=111:sa-defence&Itemid=242

- Some commentators found this deployment of re-enforcements to be unconstitutional
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-08-zuma-constitution-car-deployment-sandf

- Zuma flew to meet with the Chadians and other major players about CAR, with Gripen and Rooivalk in place even after troops had withdrawn from CAR
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-03-why-exactly-is-zuma-attending-chad-summit-on-car

There you go, a whole span of resources. Read them yourself and come up with your own conclusions

2 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 10:23pm On Jan 09, 2016

AugustineAgain:
The above weblink says NOTHING about South African Gripen radar, it only talks about 2015 uogrades which SAAF DOES NOT HAVE on your obsolescent Gripen jets with obsolete 25 year old radar. JF-17 Thunder flies with superior and modern year 2005 KLJ-7 radar with an even superior 135 km range.

JF-17 beats Gripen, flat !
.

Augustus has run from one argument to the next

Today is not a good day for him

4 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 9:45pm On Jan 09, 2016

AugustineAgain:
It failed, 2011 technical resesrch report FROM INSIDE SOUTH AFRICA BY SOUTH AFRICAN EXPERTS says Link ZA failed to perfom across different equipment, it was a huge disappointment. Sorry your Reutech manufacturer is too ashamed to admit failure publicly.

Here is the proof of Link ZA 80% failure

http://www.argospress.com/jbt/article_abstracts/14-3-2-abstract.pdf

SANDF got an overpriced intercom instead

The SAAF will be using various sensors throughout the country to compile the radar picture. As the SAAF will be deploying mobile radar units to only the inland soccer venues, the SA Navy will deploy their frigates to the coastal venues, being Cape Town, Durban and Port Elizabeth. [b]Gagiano says that the SAAF will “utilise the radar pictures from the navy ships – via Link ZA – for the total air picture around the stadiums close to the coast.”

"So all those sensors contribute to a recognised air picture and Gripen is one part of it, the ship radar is one part of it, our mobile radars, static radar, all these sensors are part and parcel of the input into one recognised air picture.”
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6534

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 9:43pm On Jan 09, 2016

Henry240:
What does the Block 52's service entry have to do with anything?

You are bragging about being on par with capabilities available before the Gripes even entered service

2 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 9:40pm On Jan 09, 2016

AugustineAgain:
Nope, 2010 defenceweb report of falsehood.

The technical performance reserach report is dated 2011 after the world cup.

http://researchspace.csir.co.za/dspace/handle/10204/5389

Title: Case study of the development of a SANDF tactical data link network enabling capability [Journal article]
Authors: Smith, CJ
Venter, JP
Keywords: Network enabling capabilities
Link-ZA
Interoperability
South African National Defence Force
SANDF
Tactical Data Links
Battlefield technology
Issue Date: Nov-2011
Publisher: Argos Press
Citation: Smith, CJ and Venter, JP. Year 2011 Case study of the development of a SANDF tactical data link network enabling capability. Journal of Battlefield Technology, Vol 14.

http://www.argospress.com/jbt/article_abstracts/14-3-2-abstract.pdf

As of 2011 date, SANDF tactical datalink is a failure 80% failed, show us a 2012-2016 technical report to cancel that.
.

1. The Rear Admiral confirms it.

1a. airforce General confirms it:

The SAAF will be using various sensors throughout the country to compile the radar picture. As the SAAF will be deploying mobile radar units to only the inland soccer venues, the SA Navy will deploy their frigates to the coastal venues, being Cape Town, Durban and Port Elizabeth. Gagiano says that the SAAF will “utilise the radar pictures from the navy ships – via Link ZA – for the total air picture around the stadiums close to the coast.”

"So all those sensors contribute to a recognised air picture and Gripen is one part of it, the ship radar is one part of it, our mobile radars, static radar, all these sensors are part and parcel of the input into one recognised air picture.”
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=6534

2. No, the paper says that upon delivery it failed to integrate, it then goes on to outline how it was integrated - abstract confirms it

You can go on repeating yourself, and I can go on quoting YOUR OWN SOURCE to prove you are wrong

I guess I just ruined your life cheesy

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:53pm On Jan 09, 2016

Henry240:
Does the part in bold even make any sense to you?

When did the F-18 enter service?

What does the f18 have to do with anything?

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 5:30pm On Jan 09, 2016

Henry240:
Defence budget and money for procurement aren't the same thing.

You should at-least apply some common sense.

OK, let's take it back a step

What source are you using which provides the budget figures you are quoting?

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 5:24pm On Jan 09, 2016

Iblawi1:
Am sorry for you. You always read trash.

"ABUJA (Reuters) - Nigeria's former defence minister has been charged with money laundering and criminal breach of trust over 300 million naira ($1 million pounds) intended for defence spending, the financial crimes agency said on Tuesday."

Even you link said $2 billion dollars

"He was arrested on Dec. 1 in relation to an investigation into a $2 billion arms deal."

Yes, the deal was 2 billion, so Henry is wrong when he says 5 billion was spent

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:14pm On Jan 09, 2016

AugustineAgain:
Show me new technical report that cancels this one.... http://www.argospress.com/jbt/article_abstracts/14-3-2-abstract.pdf

Your personal opinion is NOT a fact ! Show us technical proof.

1. Admiral confirms it

2. Report itself confirms it

Your own source proves you are wrong

3 Likes

Foreign Affairs › Re: Who Has The Strongest Military In Africa? by Patchesagain: 5:13pm On Jan 09, 2016

AugustineAgain:
You should read before you post, stop sulking, I have wrecked SANDF tactical data link false claims. Go eat the humble pie.

1. The Navy officer did NOT say their ship is data linked to Gripen jet, that statement was made by the magazine journalist who has no knowledge of the technical failure report. The words of the navy are in quotation marks, the words of the journalist had no quotation, he was speaking his own mind loaded with error and ignorance of the technical failure report on Link ZA.

2. Paper outlines how it was integrated and failed to work from aircraft to artillery or ship to submarine, report says DISAPPOINTMENT !

SANDF has intra-net and not tactical data link, let that sink into y.our sk.ull.....never mind that I spoiled your weekend
.

1 Like

Foreign Affairs › Re: African Militaries/ Security Services Strictly Photos Only And Videos Thread by Patchesagain: 4:53pm On Jan 09, 2016

Henry240:
Please ignore Patchesagain, he wishes to remain ignorant is his decision.

So the article listing the acquisition of the JF-17 as well as James are both wrong?

Because that's where I get myinfo from

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