₦airaland Forum

darfay:
Look at the pattern on that bowl, it's definitely machine carved or do you know of any crude tool that could have created same pattern of identical size on that plate that had handle (which is even rare for precolonial shit)

Lol. You're really struggling to 'prove' to yourself that these artifacts are:

1. Not as old as they are known to be.

2. Not made by the ancestors of the modern Igbo.



Keep it up.

darfay:
There is no proof to suggest that those artifacts if truly that old, aren't of a lost civilization. That's my own point

Lol. Those artifacts highlight a culture that is still quite identifable with cultural norms in the whole Awka-Orlu zone. There is no doubt in any scholar's mind that ancestors of the modern Igbo of that general area made and used them.

AreaFada2:
Remember that Ikwerre have no contiguity with Edo or Benin land. When you are totally cut off from original cultural home and other cultures super imposed, it's easy assume an almost different Identity. Not to mention mixing with a large Igbo people.

Let's also keep in mind that in that same Rivers State, with no contiguity with Edo-speaking lands, are three tiny groups that have maintained their Edoid languages: Degema, Epie and Engenni. Three very tiny groups. They have kept their Edoid languages.

Yet a relatively large group like Ikwerre, larger by far than all three groups combined, succumbed to this "Igbo onslaught" that we don't even have historical evidence for.

bigfrancis21:
Palunna - lift God ‘up’.

Puoluchiome - a new dawn/beginning in God.

Panyechiekene or Pachi for short. Give God thanks.

Paludo- be full of peace. Soludo would be, in the footsteps of peace.

Paosisochukwu - some Enugu dialects say ‘pa’ instead of ‘ka’. As it pleases God.

Many Igbo names start with Igbo verbs and not too many Igbo verbs start with P. So it’s going to be a tough one.

And you've met people with these names?

darfay:
Savage Vikings terrorized Europe,gave us norse mythology, gave us Thursday, were expert sea-men. They were feared in Europe so not a nice example


The art work are actually nice

Being feared isn't a sign that a people are sophisticated. The civilised Romans were terrified of the barbarian Germans in the last days of the empire.

I put 'savage' in quotes because my use of that term is relative.

There were at least two empires in West Africa at the time the Igbo Ukwu bronzes were being made. Ghana and Kanuri. To consider the 9th century too early for the sophistication that the bronzes show is quite unfortunate.

darfay:
Are we sure that carbon dating isn't wrong here? Because the design and symmetrical (not sure if it's the right word) perfection is way too advanced for a 1000+ years old precolonial African society.

What tools where used in forging them etc. The mug/cup surprised me the most

Too advanced for 9th century of yesterday? Have you seen the artwork that the 'savage' Vikings were producing in the 9th century? Why do Africans like selling themselves short?

Emmydann:
So what's d bone of contention here They are not IBO they said....u can't force it on dem

*sigh*

You made a suggestion that maybe the Igbo learnt their names from Ikwerre. I replied that that is illogical, since according to their claim they came from Benin. You cannot be from Benin and claim that you gave Adaeze and Ihuoma to Igbo people. The only names Bini descendants could have given Igbo people was Odion and Nosakhare. So, it must be the other way around, that is, Ikwerre taking up Igbo names.

You turn around to tell me about forcing them to be "IBO"? Where in my comment did I suggest I was forcing any identity on anybody?

naijatvnet:
Can you remember the British assimilation and association theory during the colonial rule? Well you may note that in the old Eastern Nigeria, the Igbos and Ikwerres were in the same region and had close trade and social relationship which I think would have caused the adopting of Igbo names by most Ikwerre and Ekpeye people. But truth is that a grown up man decides his origin and not the other way round

By the way, the theory that it was under Colonial Rule that the Igboid elements crept into Ikwerreland also doesn't hold water. However the Igbonization happened (that is, if there was Igbonization to start with sef and the people weren't always of Igboid stock) it predated the colonial period.

naijatvnet:
Can you remember the British assimilation and association theory during the colonial rule? Well you may note that in the old Eastern Nigeria, the Igbos and Ikwerres were in the same region and had close trade and social relationship which I think would have caused the adopting of Igbo names by most Ikwerre and Ekpeye people. But truth is that a grown up man decides his origin and not the other way round

I'm not interested in the decision they make. Good for them, really.

I only wanted to respond to the assession that the name and culture borrowing could have gone the other way, that is from Ikwerre to Igbo. It's not a logical assession.

Emmydann:
what if the names originally belongs to them, and it's just d other way round

They cannot claim to come from Benin and at the same time own those names. Those names are not Benin names.

It's either they came from Benin and then dropped their Benin names and culture and picked up Igbo ones. Or they are originally of Igbo stock, but decided it was in their best interest to cut ties with their Igbo 'relatives' and cultivate ties with Benin. It's either one or the other. Can't eat your cake and have it.

I'd really be interested in seeing something written about the origin of the Ikwerres before 1970 or so.

I recently saw something written in the 1940s by an Ogba man and it turns out he didn't even say that Akalaka (Krakra) came from Benin. He mentioned somewhere unidentified called Ogbo. People have been rewriting history to align with current interests.

lawani:
in the time of sango, oyo was already an empire. It was sango that sent Timi to establish ede to protect oyo traders from the Ijesa.

Don't listen to me. Listen to your own historians - Usman Aribidesi and Toyin Falola.

Oyo was still small during Sango's time. Certainly not an empire yet.

Christistruth00:
Sorry but you are wrong. Oranmiyan had Horses when he invaded Benin . Please check your History .


Benin paid tribute to Oyo starting with Alaafin Oranmiyan, if you do not have the record I am humbly informing you that it is in Oyo's records.
It is not a matter of pride for Oyo it is a matter of truth. Oyo itself paid tribute to the Fulani at Ilorin , it was the humiliation of it that drove the Yoruba to defeat the Fulani Jihad at Osogbo in 1840.

The entire language of this screenshot you've been posting here is very suggestive of hearsay. The man was far away in Lagos in the late 19th century and was telling us that he heard (abi, read) that in the 17th century....

Clapperton was physically present in Oyo in 1826 and spoke with the Alaafin of the time. The Alaafin never told him anything about Benin paying tribute. Samule Johnson spoke with the arokin in Oyo in the late 19th century. Nothing about Benin paying tribute.

Maloney's testimony is without merit.

Christistruth00:
Alaafin Oranmiyan had a Army at Oyo complete with Horses that defeated and Overran the Bariba .Even the Bariba were paying tribute to Oranmiyan at Oyo.
Oyo was founded on land Alaafin Oranmiyan took from the Bariba .
Benin paid tribute to Oyo. Starting with Alaafin Oranmiyan.

Wrong on all counts. While horses were known in early Oyo, it wasn't until much later that they had them in sufficient numbers to form a cavalry. Hence the first mention of the use of horses in warfare in Oyo history was in the time of Orompoto.

There is no record of Benin paying tribute to Oyo.

Christistruth00:
Are you aware that Benin paid tribute to Oyo starting with Alaafin Oranmiyan ? This is a well known fact among Oyo Historians.

At the time of Oranmiyan and his early successors Ajaka and Sango, Oyo was still a small city-state and was not in a position to exert tribute from anyone. Had it finished paying tribute to Owu and defending itself against Nupe and Bariba attack to see road to ask anyone for tribute?

gregyboy:
The article looking more like a dump site for rubbish, seriously i wont site this article for you.... What kind of article is this, is it English they are writing abi Spanish.....

Wtf bring the source from a dahomey website you dont need to go far to site a Moran

Gregyboy. You're not very smart. Also you're not a scholar. That much is evident from this comment of yours.

First of all, the book I've shown you is titled "The History of Dahomy" by Archibald Dalzel and it was written in 1793. Every scholar and academic on the history of the Aja states (Dahomey, Whydah, Allada, etc) and the Western Yoruba (Ketu, etc) and the Oyo knows about this book. I'm not surprised you don't know it and think it's a "dump site for rubbish", since you're neither a scholar nor an academic but a social media troll.

If you're having difficulty with the grammar and the orthography, it is because it was written using the English and orthography prevalent in the 18th century, when 's' was written to look like 'f'.

If you're serious about history, you need to give social media trolling a rest and put in some work in familiarizing yourself with the existing literature of each era, so that ordinary 18th century English will not look Spanish to you.

I also know that this comment is your attempt to deflect from evidence you can't refute. I know. You know. We know.

These are just a few random screenshots from an 18th century account by someone who was on the ground. Now tell me again how Dahomey never paid tribute to Oyo.

From Dalzel's book. Corals were a very prized possession. This is from the time when the King of Dahomey had corals, but hid the knowledge from the Alaafin, lest the Alaafin of Oyo added corals to the tribute. The Alaafin eventually found out and of course demanded corals be added to the tribute. In the words of the Alaafin: "Dahomey belonged to Eyeo [Oyo]"

From Dalzel's 18th century book. This describes the time when a King of Dahomy died and the ambassadors of the Alaafin of Oyo used that time to increase the tribute that Dahomey was supposed to pay. The new King had no option than to pay. The Oyo cavalry was not something to play with. Even Dahomey with all her martial fame knew not to mess with Oyo.

gregyboy:
But the issue of paying tribute wtf that was a big lie, the only people who paid tribute to the imagined yorubas if it was even true, were the yorubas who migrated to dahomey during war and slave hunt

**sigh**

Mehn, all you had to do was read the book by Dalzel that I suggested. Dalzel was a European slave trader who lived in Dahomey in the 18th century during Oyo's ascendancy. So what he wrote of Oyo-Dahomey relations was not hearsay. But since you won't go and read and want to be spoonfed, let me once again spoonfeed you. But at some point, you have to learn to do this research by yourself, gregyboy.

Screenshots from Dalzel's book.

gregyboy:
Bring prove to this


Did they install thier king in this various imagined country, did they leave any cultural influence to this people in this country

If not it was not conquering it was probably just a war between both party

Please, find the "History of Dahomy" written by Archibald Dalzel in the 18th century. Also find and read "Sources of Oyo history" by Robin Law. Professor Robin Law has in fact done splendid work on the Oyo, and his doctoral dissertation was on Oyo.

Find and read these books and papers. I cannot be running around fetching references for things that should be well known to people who genuinely are interested in African history.

Dartilo:
apart from yoruba scholars who else acknowledge oyo d empire status...

Spit imaginary empire

Western scholars with interest in African history, that's who.

Why do you people like to pretend that we don't have evidence of Oyo conquering and exerting tribute from non-Yoruba groups in modern Benin Republic and parts of Togo?

In its original sense, Odogwu means war general. It was a military title in some parts of Igboland. Nowadays, it is often just normal hailing.

Nwafor literally translates as child of the womb. But its actual meaning is "trueborn son/daughter of the soil."

Samuel Johnson links the Benin with the Yoruba (when he said Oduduwa's third child founded the kingdom of Benin). But curiously Oranmiyan isn't the link in Johnson's account.

Oranmiyan (in Johnson's account) was Oduduwa's last child who founded Oyo.

lawani:
The Benin empire was a Yoruba empire thorough and thorough. The Yoruba language was used as lingua franca during the days of the empire. The people of ugbodu in delta state migrated from Benin according to their history and they still speak a Yoruba dialect today. Benin empire was a sister state to Ijesa, Ijebu and etc, they spoke the same language. The Benin palace was a sprawling complex home to over 50 thousand people and all those people spoke Yoruba as mother tongue. It was in the 19th century that edo people from the suburbs overwhelmed the palace. Nowadays some edo revisionist try so hard to rewrite the history as an edo empire but this is far from the truth.

I do not know where you read this, but the people of Ugbodu and by extension the Olukwumi, do not claim Benin origin. They came from parts of Eastern Yorubaland that were under Benin hegemony. In their oral traditions Owo and Akure are specifically mentioned.

Probz:
But the point is Enuani people aren’t the same as Ika/Bendel/Ukwuani people.

This doesn't make much sense. Ika isn't the same as Ukwuani, either. All the three Igboid dialect blocs in Anioma are distinct from each other, even though they have all blended around the edge. What's your point?

Again, this is unnecessary digression, given that all I am interested in, as far as this post is concerned, is that the obsession of incessantly talking about south-south Igbo-speaking peoples by our SE brothers is becoming unhealthy

[quote author=EzeNdiAra post=89522553][/quote]According to this map, the whole of Rivers Stat is Ijaw. Lmao. They are not even the majority there.

Probz:
Not so much that as the fact that Enuani people have less grounds for Igbo denial than Ika and Ukwuani people (linguistically at least) and that’s not something that can be readily denied.

Identity goes beyond language.

Also you're managed to digress from the point of my initial statement on this post.

Probz:
You’re Enuani so why wouldn’t you identify as Igbo?

I see you're still holding on to this simplistic view that Enuani all identify as Igbo and the rest of Anioma doesn't.