₦airaland Forum

LegalWolf:
This is why your logic crumbles. I presumed you are an adult but I think I need to explain this to you like a 5 year old. Probably Quran exegesis for dummies. Let me take you on some few points (below):

- On Yahya issue, you cannot be claiming Yahya is an Hebrew name using the Quran and when clear evidence is brought from the same source to rebut your argument, you run away. It doesn’t work that way.

- If you rely on the Quran, Yahya is a name never given to anyone before. It cannot be an Hebrew name . Where is my source for this assertion - Quran 19:7

- So if you insist that it is an Hebrew name using the Quran, it is for you to bring a verse from the Quran disproving such.

Muslims are the greatest fraudsters on this planet earth, but I am not surprised for your lord Allah is the best of the deceivers (you Muslims being members of the deceivers gang)

Yahya not a Jewish name!?
Like,
Zakariya is not a Jewish name!
Isaac is not a Jewish name!
Yakub is not a Jewish name!
Yusuf is not a Jewish name!
Daud is not a Jewish name!
Suleiman is not a Jewish name!

Exactly like that, Yahya is not a Jewish name!?

LIAR!
Like your Lord the best of the deceivers!


I am surprised you claim to be a lawyer!
Here is the report from a book 600 years before Islam



Luk 1:13:
"But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John."


Luk 1:60-63:
"And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John. And they said unto her, There is none of thy kindred that is called by this name. And they made signs to his father, how he would have him called. And he asked for a writing table, and wrote, saying, His name is John. And they marveled all."

Copy-Paste religion that cannot even copy correctly!

LegalWolf:
- Lol, you are quite a funny guy. You do not need to prove the Bible to me? Really? Is that an argument?

- So who tells you I have to prove Allah or anything in the Quran to you? Again, on what basis do I have to prove such

- If you want to pick holes in the Quran to disprove Allah, that’s okay with me. I’ll give you a solid, rational and compact tight explanation. This is not the first time I’ve been doing this.

- But yhwh must enter the witness box. I must prove my hypothesis that the New Testament is a sham, composed by anonymous fraudsters and believed by the most docile people on earth.

- You will notice that I haven’t even cited sources. Neither have I gone in-depth to prove the inherent illogicality of the bible. This is because you have failed to commit to a two side conversation.

- Similarly, in case you have forgotten, I was the one one who reminded you in our most recent conversation that I will translate the transliterated quote of “inna isA wa malaikatAhu…” Not just that, I wrote in bold that I will also answer your queries on the fluid/semen topic. So it is baseless to say I’m scared of debating this. I relish and look forward to that opportunity.

- You keep claiming Islam can’t stand on lie. Your entire religion is a fraud to start with. Your bible is the greatest forgery in humanity so also is your entire creed. If conversation proceeds to that place, I will demonstrate unequivocally how your religion is nothing but a scam!

- I can go on and on. But it is apparent your claim to rest the authenticity of the fraudulent bible on the Holy Quran has failed. And I don’t know why you are scared to defend what your church leaders tell you to be demonically “inspired”. The sheer stupidity for me.

- At this stage, even an imbec*le should have grasped the drift of my argument as succinctly explained above.

- Finally, I have nothing to prove to you UNLESS AND UNTILL BOTH YHWH AND THE NEW TESTAMENT enters the witness box. How simple, rational and fair could a request be?

I am not asking you to prove Allah or the Qur'an for anyone. I simply poke HOLES into the CLAIMS of both Allah, Mohammed and Islam!
QED!

None of my question is to ask you to DEFEND the authenticity of the Qur'an but to show you the big HOLES in their claims in broad daylight.

In that sense, I ASSUME that the Qur'an says exactly what it says and Islamic narratives say exactly what they say!

You are wasting precious time!

LegalWolf:
Even from what you quoted shows complete lack of sense. Do you actually know the meaning of straw man argument? Or you just want to bamboozle your supporters who don’t have sense?

Of course, the quoted Quranic verses lack basic sense in that they are words of a messenger and not of God

LegalWolf:
Let me refresh your memory, you started with yahyah argument and you’ve not rebutted that today.

I didn't react because it would be a distraction to the main questions of
1. You translating a simple Arabic script (which you've not done till now)
2. Does the semen of men and women come from between the ribcage and the backbone ? (which you've also not answered till now)

Let me take you up on Yahya.
1. Is Yahya an Arabic name or Hebrew name?
2. What is the meaning of Yahya?

LegalWolf:
Every single time, the Quran says it has “revealed” the injil to Jesus. Key word here is reveal to Isa and please do not equate the current books of the bible to what the Quran is making reference to.

Apparently, the anonymous and fraudulently attributed four canonical books aren’t revealed to Jesus, are they? Muslims scholars are near unanimous that the extant canonical books are not injil and they can’t be. It shall never be!!!!! I can cite as much authority as you want if you give me the go-ahead.

Working your way back to prove the authenticity of the Bible through the Noble Quran won’t save your fabricated and anonymous story books. Again, the Bible is not worth what it was printed on and unless you are willing to put the NT in the ring for us to test it’s historicity, you’re clutching on to straws.

Why making circuitous argument? Is there something you don’t want us to know about your fairy tale holy book?

I don't need to prove anything about the bible. I only need to show you HOLES in the Qur'an!

If the Qur'an is truely from God the Creator of Everything, then it cannot have some basic errors.
1. Allah should know that semen don't come from between the Ribcage and the Backbone?
2. Allah should know that women don't produce SEMEN but ovum (egg)

This is basic primary school sex education and biology!

Without lies, Islam crumbles!


You are just doing everything not to respond to basic simple questions because it reveals your lies.

LegalWolf:
Lol, afraid of you or what? I’ll break it down for you like a dummy so you can understand.

You alleged that you you bursted me before going far. How did you do it? You claim that the Quran confirmed the bible because yahya means “Yhwh is gracious”. I debunked that by explaining that the name is Yahya is NOT synonymous nor derived from Yohannan as confirmed in Quran 19:7

Muslims and Strawman arguments. It's not surprising because Allah himself is the best of the deceivers!

I used argument from
Qur'an 2:41:
And believe in the Book which I have revealed and which confirms the Scripture you already have , and be not foremost among its deniers. Do not sell My signs for a trifling gain, and beware of My wrath.

Allah himself seems to disagree with you


Qur'an 3:3
He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel.
Specifically, this is Allah's testimony about the earlier revealed books

Qur'an 6:115
The Word of your Lord is perfect in truthfulness and justice; no one can change His words. He is the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

But Jews and Christians are much more powerful than Allah and this can change Allah's words!?

Qur'an 2:89
“And when there comes to them a Book from Allah, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognised, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

Christians and Jews refused to believe the Qur'an even though Allah says that the Qur'an confirms the BOOKS of the Jews and Christians!

Therefore once again of you can tell me that Allah is WRONG in the above, be my guest else, you have no single case!

LegalWolf:
Now you can’t approbate and reprobate at the same time. That insults logic and common sense. If you appeal to a particular authority, that means (at least for the purpose of that argument), you concede to the soundness of that authority. If that authority fails you, don’t u think that your argument crumbles?

Then again, Our first argument is “inna isa wa malaikatAhu yussalun….” That I should transalate, I will. Then this, again I will. But that your fairy book of yours must also enter the witness?
Ohhh you are using reverse psychology. You’re scared and don’t want me to shred the Bible into pieces. Why don’t want u want us to discuss biblical historicity ? Why shitting on ur pants


AGAIN, I WILL ANSWER UR QUESTIONS, BUT YHWH AND THE BIBLE MUST BE INSIDE THE WITNESS BOX

Till today after several pleading, you refused to translate for us the simple Arabic script.

I have asked you several times again, does the semen (of men and women according to Allah) come from between the ribcage and the backbone?

All you are bent on doing is changing the topic of discussion.

Just one error in the Qur'an is enough to discredit the whole of Allah and the Qur'an. We have found several!

Of course, the Qur'an is the WORDs of a honoured messenger.
If the Qur'an is the words of Allah, then Allah is the messenger.
If the Qur'an is the words of Mohammed, then the Qur'an is NOT the words of Allah.
If the Qur'an is the words of Jubril then the Qur'an is NOT the words of Allah.


Can you see why it is difficult to defend the Qur'an Mohammed and Islam?

franciskaine:
the guy see protectionism for economics textbook begin think say theory and practical are same. You don't even need to ban a product, just upscale your production quantity and quality and importers will fizzle out of business.

Exactly, unfortunately the government is the biggest anti-industrialisation.

Electricity, the government cannot produce.
Fuel, the price is now about N800 per litre
Basic fundamental industry (coal, steel, plastic, etc) non-existent.

And the government still expect that by magic, Nigeria would start manufacturing microprocessors!

I taya for our Economists!

terrezo2002:
You should have a discernment to see the operation of the spirit of witchcraft.

Of course!

Sixfiguresmart:
Surah 33:50
O Prophet! We have made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their ˹full˺ dowries as well as those ˹female slaves˺ in your possession, whom Allah has granted you. And ˹you are allowed to marry˺ the daughters of your paternal uncles and aunts, and the daughters of your maternal uncles and aunts, who have emigrated like you. Also ˹allowed is˺ a believing woman who offers her body (vagina) to the Prophet ˹without dowry˺ if he is interested in sexing her—˹this is˺ exclusively for you, not for the rest of the believers. We know well what ˹rulings˺ We have ordained for the believers in relation to their wives and those ˹female slaves˺ in their possession. As such, there would be no blame on you. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Mohammed was exclusively allowed to have sex with relatively anything. Here allah was asking mohammed to have sex even with a Muslima who gives her body to him outside marriage. The word in the quran is يَسْتَنكِحَهَا meaning f*ck her. It does not mean "marry her". Marriage is paying dowry. Fornication is an affair outside wedlock.

TenQ please ask legalwolf to explain this. These guys are blocking me from posting anything. Why does mohammed have exclusive right to sex. is he muslim and does he follow the 5 pillars of islam too?

LegalWolf know that it is one of the marvelous miracles of Mohammed (ability to have unlimited sexual intercourse with anyone)

Second answer:
Because Mohammad is the prophet of Allah. He's got to taste paradise on earth before he dies

FreeStuffsNG:
smh. I am sure that you are ignorant of the local economy and its capacity.

I pity most of you living in that bubble of negativity and ignorance about opportunities available even within Ngeria.

That explains why you all miss out. Do not blame anyone else apart from you for why you have been outcompeted in life.

You've just displayed your gross ignorance of the technical and industrial capacity of Nigeria.

We produce nothing because our R& is zero and government policies and failures have crippled that sector.

If protectionism is that good, why is Nigeria importing Diesel , Petrol and Kerosene?

Nigerian Economists operate theories without understanding industry that drive the production

FreeStuffsNG:
Hmmm. Protectionism.

Now you know before you start complaining that customs siezed your goods or containers. Do not bring those items into Nigeria, if you do, they shall be siezed , burnt and all your funds lost.

For those ignorant of the reason and the benefits of protectionism, free yourself of hate and bigotry and get educated that protectionism is in your interest to give you jobs that can cure you of idleness.For the few ones among you uncouth, badly raised, lazy and idle youths who are ready and willing to work and end the idle life style of social media addiction, protectionism will create more jobs and credible alternatives for you

Reasons for Protectionism
An economy usually adopts protectionist policies to encourage domestic investment in a specific industry. For instance, tariffs on the foreign import of shoes would encourage domestic producers to invest more resources in shoe production.

In addition, nascent domestic shoe producers would not be at risk from established foreign shoe producers. Although domestic producers are better off, domestic consumers are worse off as a result of protectionist policies, as they may have to pay higher prices for somewhat inferior goods or services. Protectionist policies, therefore, tend to be very popular with businesses and very unpopular with consumers.

Advantages of Protectionism
More growth opportunities: Protectionism provides local industries with growth opportunities until they can compete against more experienced firms in the international market
Lower imports: Protectionist policies help reduce import levels and allow the country to increase its trade balance.
More jobs: Higher employment rates result when domestic firms boost their workforce
Higher GDP: Protectionist policies tend to boost the economy’s GDP due to a rise in domestic production.
check my signature for free stuffs!

Can Nigeria produce refrigerators?

Let me break down the major components
1. Insulation
2. Compressor
3. Refrigerant (gas)
4. Interior plastics
5. Evaporator
6. Condenser

Is it not stupidity to totally ban an item you can't even produce 10% of the required components?

It is exactly similar to banning importation of used cars.

There are steps to be taken before Protectionist policies are selectively implemented!

LegalWolf:
Oh TenQ, I completely missed that out thinking it was sixfiguresmart. You jumped in at the middle of a conversation and don’t u think it is important to know where it started from? Anyways, I’ll leave that out for u to check..

On the issue of the topic, I will answer the question. But you also can’t be smart by half. You completely abandoned the conversation on the historicity of the Bible and you’ve mute ever since. You failed to respond to the meaning of Yahya to the best of my knowledge. If you so much believe in yhwh, let’s put him and his inspired books in the witness stand.

Again, for emphasis I am prepared to answer your questions above . But only on the condition that you agree I subject yhwh, the bible and christianity in the witness box. Is thAt not a reasonable condition?

On the highlighted, I have ALREADY bursted you even before going far. I only appealed to the authority of Allah and the Qur'an. If you are willing to concede that both lied or are in error about the bible, be my guest. Only Muslims will trivialise the Word of Allah for that of Mohammed and trivialise that of Mohammed with that of their scholars when suitable.


On the topic at hand,
It looks like you are either afraid or confused:
1. Allah can never be wrong because he is the best of the creators.
2. Semen do not come from between the Ribcage and the Backbone of a person as acclaimed by Allah
3. Since Allah is CLEARLY wrong, Allah cannot be the Creator. Allah is a Mohammed or an alter of Mohammed.

Indeed Allah is the best of the deceivers


surah Al-Haqqah: 40
﴿إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ﴾
[ الحاقة: 40]

Preciousgirl:
1 John 5:16

If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

There is only one sin that irrevocably leads to death: Blasphemy against God's Holy Spirit.

Every other kind of sin can be atoned for except this.

Blasphemy is daring God knowingly to do His worst! It is a rebellion from a person who knows God but dare Him.

Kobojunkie:
Why hack you while you sleep? Why not while you are awake?

Your fasts(starvation diets) are nothing but glorified diet plans and nothing more.

LOL!

LegalWolf:
Mr. Man, I completely understand your appeal to Black Swan logic. But here is the issue - my claim is not frivolities as you alleged. Your reputation has been impeached because you have demonstrated on several occasions that you will lie to win an argument. Something no one who debates religion and with sound faith in his God is expected to do. We are debating morality here not BBN or politics. You are not coming to equity with a clean but soiled hand. If you had admitted you lied and a little bit remorseful, and not covering your lie with more lies, we would have proceeded far in our discussion.

However, you keep lying and standing on your lie. I thought you had source which clearly stated that At-Tabarani recorded his ahadith from witnesses (and not Tabi'un). Where are they

This is TenQ and I believe that you and I have NOT said a single word about Al-Tabarani.

The title of the Post is:
Re: Do Male Muslims Have Their Sperms Between Their Backbone And Their Ribcage?

You've left the core issue to be arguing about Al-Tabarani and other irrelevant issues, hence my last post repeated here below:


I honestly don't know why you are arguing over trivialities on this topic.

It is sufficient that just ONE error in the Qur'an conclusively prove that Allah CANNOT be the All-wise, All-knowing and All-powerful Creator of Everything.

If Allah says that the Male and female "reproductive fluids" come from between the Backbone and the Ribcage , then Allah could not have created man!


Indeed Allah is the best of the deceivers

LegalWolf:
My job is to jealously guide you on the part of self-destruction and on this, I will do with certainty. Off the top of my head, I cannot recall Imam Al- Bukhari, who was a generation before Al-Tabarani meeting a companion of the prophet (but he met the Tabi'un) not to talk of At-Tabarani. It is very simple, mention the witnesses that At-Tabarani met! Just one...

Every single person that is reading this is seeing how you are clutching to straws. I repeat, Tabarani was born about 200 years after the death of the prophet and It is left for you to show us who the witnesses were... I am still waiting.

Now I forgot, I caught another lie. Tabarani recorded from the witnesses that saw the prophet. Really? Where is your source??

I honestly don't know why you are arguing over trivialities on this topic.

It is sufficient that just ONE error in the Qur'an conclusively prove that Allah CANNOT be the All-wise, All-knowing and All-powerful Creator of Everything.

If Allah says that the Male and female "reproductive fluids" come from between the Backbone and the Ribcage , then Allah could not have created man!


Indeed Allah is the best of the deceivers


surah Al-Haqqah: 40
﴿إِنَّهُ لَقَوْلُ رَسُولٍ كَرِيمٍ﴾
[ الحاقة: 40]

Pray4naija:
Sir I'm more Christ-like than many clergymen,
I believed Christianity is all about humanity that's reason I don't discriminate no matter your religion affiliation I believe Christianity is all about helping humanity

You are Wrong Bro!

Christianity is
1. First about your salvation: getting your name in the book of life
2. Secondly, living your new life according to the rules of God's kingdom (Righteousness, Love for God and Man, Fruit of the Spirit)
3. Thirdly, service to God, His Church (members) and Humanity through your spiritual gifts and talents.
4. Fourthly, Christian duty of Preaching, Healing and Deliverance of the oppressed!

The above are the core essence of Christianity!

JJuanMiguel:
Most of these sadist lecturers with their oversizedokrika clothes, worn out shoes and dilapidated old model Toyota don't give quality education in the first place.

You have just confirmed that the teachers are poorly paid for the job they are required to do!

Preciousgirl:

What is wrong with men?
Can't believe that my ex guy whom I broke up with years ago is asking me out again
Knowing very well that I am married
Should I tell my husband?
Should I block him?
Please how do I handle it?

I am never interested in him

Is something wrong with your husband!?

Anigreat:




ASUU have no choice than to resume immediately. They foolishly fight a battle that they can never never win . I pity the students sha

It is double loss for the students.
ASUU lose, student lose quality education!

QED!

[quote author=politicoNG post=117378211][/quote]Nigeria is the only country I know that would be deep in debt and yet increasing budget every year.

frank14011991:
on nairaland, every body na saint, for nairaland every body na dangote.if you are a lecturer or have any relative that is a lecturer, if dem born am well,if ASUU call off strike on Monday make im no go work

LOL!
Choose your friends and associations wisely next time!

frank14011991:
most Nigerians don't bypass meter? I give up on you.how many Nigerians collected covid-19 loan from cbn and rice anchor program loan and refuse to pay back

Most Nigerians I live with and relate with are law abiding. It's a surprise that it's the opposite with you. Could it be a problems of association?

If I live with thieves, everyone would be a thief: I can understand.

Birds of the same feathers flock together! What a pity!!

pappy2000:
Please I bring this under religious section for a reason, this is my personal story, I am now a born again Christian who is separated from a woman that is far from ideal but deceived me, while we were dating i was just a lukewarm Christian who just try to fulfil righteous and tick the right boxes in society. Unfortunately for me, we got married then we separated after four months what was the cause of our separation was that she is plain stubborn who is over entitlement mentality is awful, I don't want to bore you so many intricacies, we got separated and her family tried to bring us back even though they are obviously supporting her, now fast forward two and the half years later we are separated living separatly, now i am heaven conscious but if i were to live in the flesh i will say i don't want to have anything to do with her again but due to the fact that i am now a born again Christian i called her and she said she is no longer interested. i honestly don't also want her but not my will but the will of my father be done , i have been searching the Scripture but with no clear answer about this, we are separated i cant say i have seen her cheating but this woman is ultra stubborn, she is just one big hell of a person, but cheating i doubt. please what does the Scripture say about such divorce i will apreciate yur input from a Christian babes

The bible give some directions about marriage , divorce and remarriage.

1. Permanence of Marriage.
He who marries anyone who is divorced commit adultery with her. Meaning that the divorce is NOT recognise in heaven
Mat 19:9:
"And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery."

2. There are only two exceptions to this
a. One of the couple commits adultery

Mat 5:32:
"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

b. An UNBELIEVING spouse decide to walk away from the marriage.
1Cor 7:15:
"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."



At the end of the day , a Christian willing to please the Lord who finds himself/herself in a situation like this knowing the above should go with his conscience in the light of God's WORD!

frank14011991:
how many people pay tax in Nigeria? Nigeria is one of the countries with lowest electricity tariff still yet many people bypass their meter

Every major country I know have mechanism by which income tax is filed from your place of work.

Does your government know how much you are earning per month?

Most Nigerians don't bypass there meter my friend except you are one of those Nigerians

frank14011991:
How can an employee be fighting his employer?if you know you can't work in such environment,you resign

That is why nothing works in Nigeria.

What do you think will happen if individuals can sue the government for bad roads, no electricity and poor security?

N3TRAL:
If they refuse, the Federal Government should enforce the Judgment of the Court by deregistering them

The government should not stop at that.

Vice-chancellors must account for hundreds of billions worth of TETFUND grants they have embezzled.

The lecturers must also write apology letters to students and add 20 marks to the score of students because you cannot stay 8 months at home blocking highways and bullying online without forgetting what you were taught in January. It should be a criteria for paying them the 8 months salary they didn't work for.

For more than 40 years, ASUU has shattered the dreams of great Nigerian students.

Below is a picture of ASSU strike being called off in 1981. My mother had just started Primary School in 1981. 41 years later a useless congress of indecent academicians are still frustrating students.

May you be in the position of ASUU and may them who are stronger than you cheat you on your agreements and still force you to apologize!

Please say Amen!

lhordspy:
Lol.

Let's forget about the nuclear threats for now, the westerners can continuing peeing in their pants for now . But let focus on this sentence i got from the entire news. It says:


____
'Russian officials speak of the possibility of using tactical nuclear weapons after suffering massive setbacks in the eight-month invasion of Ukraine'
______

The funniest sentence i have seen in decades.
Russia just annexed a whole 4 region off ukraine amounting to like 15% of the entire ukraine region. BUT
Guess what? the hypocritical,delusional western medias who are still living in denial or just outrightly off-reality of happening still thinks the ongoing 'special operation' is suffering massive setback.


Oh you western apologists and chearleaders, Let me educate you on the gains of this four regions annexations:

The Donetsk region was Ukraine’s industrial center, accounting for 20% of the country’s industrial production. It is rich in mineral resources, having the fourth-largest coal field in Europe.

The Luhansk region is an important transport hub and is known for its metallurgy, machinery and agricultural industries. It has metallurgical enterprises, chemical and pharmaceutical plants and several coal mines

The Zaporizhzhia region, meanwhile, is the center of energy supply and produces 25% of Ukraine’s electricity. Three powerful energy producers are located in the southeastern region – the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the largest nuclear facility in Europe, the Dnieper Hydroelectric Station and the Botievo wind farm.
It also has a number of large industrial and mechanical engineering facilities.

The Kherson port region specializes in shipbuilding and is known for its resorts and agriculture. Besides, the entire Azov Sea will also become a part of Russia.


So my people, where is the 'massive setback so far' in this? If it is this same type of setback Nigeria is experiencing right now economically, then we wont still be wallowing in a third-world country tag.

Shalom.

In other words, the primary reason for this war is because Putin covets the rich industrial areas of Ukraine! The Neo-Nazis and NATO was just a ruse. Russia will also take all the Ukrainian warm ports for her Navy!

Oh I see!!
It's a war of GREED!!

Wilgrea7:
I know I've addressed this before, but there's something I can't help but notice.

You accused me of trying to build god in my own image. But you also simultaneously tell me that a creator God can literally do whatever it wants, and no one would have the right to question it.

In my first example, I talked about how a god could deem the murder of children as good, and you cited your biblical passage as to how your specific God said we should love one another.

So far, you seem to incline yourself with the loving, merciful idea of a God in Christianity, which I understand, with you being a Christian and all. But what makes you think you're not the one who is actually wrong?

What makes you think you're not the one agreeing with a concept of a god based on personal preferences. Remember the bacteria vs toilet owner analogy.

What gives you the impression that if a God exists, it has to be a good one? You've used the excuse of conscience before, which I understand.

But what stops a God from giving you a conscience, while still being a sadistic entity? Afterall, he can do whatever he wants, without question.

You're the one who said humans have no say in what is moral and what is not.

If your conscience is part of what made you choose the Christian God, then aren't you the one creating, or more accurately, adopting the concept of a God based on subjective means, which in this case would be your conscience?

Isn't conscience a form of rationale, which should be irrelevant when talking about morality from a God? If the bacteria were more sentient, wouldn't their conscience tell them their death is wrong? Would it make their subjective judgement any more objective in regards to the toilet owner?

I've asked you something similar to this before, but you avoided it.

Your conscience judges you alone and it doesn't concern itself with others! In the absence of the Law, your conscience is Watchman!
Your conscience is program written into you by your Creator as a sentinel to guide your character. QED!

Wilgrea7:
What God? The God of Christianity, Islam? Hinduism? Eledumare? Ra? Which God in particular are you talking about here? Because it seems you're making moral claims based on your God, and someone else could make a different, and contradictory one based on theirs.

In regards to the rationality, you were the one who said..



Morality from a God does not need to be rationalized by humans to apply. It applies irrespective of it's rationality to humans. But this is besides the point.

The point of my subjective vs objective morality wasn't to say whether or not humans had any say in anything. It was to present a situation where something being objectively moral, in respect to a God, would not be a sufficient reason to want to adhere to it.



I'm not claiming God, in the general sense doesn't exist. Your reference to infinite regress and things having a beginning does not apply here.

What I'm saying is, you, as a Christian, have to prove that your specific God, the Christian God, is indeed the creator of the universe, and therefore the source of the moral laws that govern it. Not the muslim one, not the hindu or ancient egyptian one, but the christian one.

Your "everything having a cause" and "infinite regress" analogy only get you to something resembling a conscious first cause, which we can agree to call God. It gets you nowhere near any specific God.

In order to say that the christian God is indeed the source of objective moral laws, and not the hindu or muslim one, or any other one, then you need to show some sort of proof.

Now, on to your "dragging God into the laboratory" analogy. You do realize that this same excuse can be used for any and all of the other gods through history right? If something cannot be proven, then on what basis should anyone accept it as objective.

If objective moral laws cannot be proven in favor of any specific God, then on what basis should we accept their claims as truly objective? It then becomes a case of "I believe this is objective", which in itself, is subjective.

If a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Zoroastrian, or any other type of theist cannot prove that their specific God is indeed the arbiter of objective moral laws, then such claims to objective morality are dead on arrival

I think it is you who need to state explicitly that
1. The description of the Christian God as the Creator is material, time bound, weak, unconscious and unintelligent.
The ball is in your court
2. Let the adherents of Hindu, Baal, Muslim, etc speak for themselves as you know them, I don't! We don't represent the same Personality!

You don't have to be a Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Atheist etc for God the Creators will to be binding upon you.

Wilgrea7:
It feels like we're arguing 2 different things at this point. At no point in this discussion did I say a God could not do with it's creation as it pleased. You're accusing me of strawmanning, but it seems to be you who's committing the very thing you accuse me of.

I made 2 points. One about human vs God's morality. I never said anything about anyone objecting. I made reference to how something can be subjectively right and objectively wrong as per the example I gave.

The next point I made, was about proving objective morality, at least in respect to a God. You've dodged the question twice now, and now you're going on to say I'm the one creating god in my own image?

When did I make any such assertions? All I said was opinions among gods in respect to morality remain opinions until someone can prove that a specific deity is indeed the creator of the universe, and hence the arbiter of the objective moral laws.

So far you've failed to address it. If you want to accuse me of something, at least get the facts right. No offense

Your first Point:
Humans don't have any morality outside God's yardstick of morality. Human morality doesn't exist: we don't set the rules QED!

You seem not to get the point!

Humans have NO SAY in what is Moral or not. It doesn't depend on his rationale or rationality as it all depends on God to set His standard.

Simple Example:
Sex outside marriage is a VIOLATION of Gods moral standard.

Now, as humans, we want to rationalize to say:
Sex should be okay
1. When it is by freely consenting adults
2. When neither party is harmed
3. When both are in love
4. When there is protection against STDs and unwanted pregnancies

Unfortunately, all these even though good does not invalidate the fact that sex outside marriage is a violation of Gods moral code.

When it comes to moral codes, sorry, you have no say in the matter.

Your Second Point:
Since you know that by Description of the Creator God by Christians, He is immaterial, Conscious, Intelligent, timeless and infinitely powerful, how do you intend to "Measure/Detect Him". Do you suppose that God can be dragged into the laboratory?

It is sufficient to know that
1. Infinite regress of Cause and Effect is impossible
2. The Universe and everything called matter, time and space had a beginning
3. Order from Data and Instructions are products of an intelligent mind

Then, Ask yourself if God doesn't Exist!

Dtruthspeaker:
He is not here for Truths. He is just here for an unending argument (unless you agree with him) to blaspheme The Lord as prophecied!

So this serves no purpose.

I think he has built a god in his own image and this is the Strawman he presents as representing God the Creator!

It's a waste of time!

Shalom!!

Wilgrea7:
Two things

1) Rationality fails when you introduce the common theistic excuse, that "God's ways are above our ways"

2) That wasn't related to what I said about claims to objective morality, or the possible difference between human morality and God's morality

If God made everything for His own purpose, then His ways are above our ways AND He is absolute with WHATEVER He does with His creations!

This is an inescapable truth!


Fela Anikulapo was said to have bought a brand new Mercedes Benz, cut it and used it to pack goods like a pickup! Then, Benz was seen as the car of the wealthy and a status symbol.
Has Fela Broken any rule?

Does it matter if EVERYONE in the world object to how Fela has mistreated "a Mercedes Benz"?

Wilgrea7:
Good day Sir.

I think you may have misunderstood my argument.

I'm not trying to argue for the arbitrariness of right and wrong according to the Christian God. Although I could make a strong case for it, that isn't the point I was trying to make.

It's not about what's right from our perspective... But what's right from God's perspective.

If a God thought it was right to boil children alive, by his standard which is supposed to be the highest standard, people who choose NOT to carry out the act would be considered bad.

The people who decided not to murder their children in that way would be right subjectively, but wrong objectively.

That's the point I was trying to make.

Also I think it's nice that your version of God doesn't like children being boiled alive. But that doesn't in any way prove that your God's moral standards are in any way objective.

Let me give an example

Person A believes in a God that wants humans to love each other. For person A, kindness to others is good, and wickedness is bad.

Person B believes in a God that loves violence. Person B's God says that kindness is a sin, while wickedness is good

Which one of these 2 is objectively right then? If we accept that objective morality exists, then one of these must be wrong. Maybe even both.

I talked about this in my second post here. Unless someone can prove that their God is indeed the one who created the universe, and is therefore the arbiter of good and evil, none of their claims to objective morality can be treated as objective.

Considering the nature of religions today, morality has shifted from being subjective among humans, to subjective among gods

If the basis of morality of a God is not rational even to him nor can it be rationalized, then it is a pointless discussion .

Churches stewed in Religion and Traditions will eventually die!

Luk 18:8:
".... Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?"

Men will become faithless as the end come nearer!

That's why Jesus repeatedly said:
Take heed that no man Decieve you