₦airaland Forum

analice107:
I need scriptures to back up your claims. It's not enough to count which denomination does or doesn't do it. Where are we as Christians commanded to do It? And when in the Christian faith did this practice began?

because
outside the Catholic Church,
there was never, and never has
been the celebration of Palm
Sunday and ash Wednesday.


Kindly withdraw the statement above.

analice107:
I need scriptures to back up your claims. It's not enough to count which denomination does or doesn't do it. Where are we as Christians commanded to do It? And when in the Christian faith did this practice began?

we have the permission to do where d bible tell us to alway look unto Jesus, we look at his life, his acts and teaching. We also get it frm mat 16:15 and mat 18:18 where Jesus gave the leaders of the church power to bind and lose on earth and heaven, they therefore have power to declear both feast, fast and practices in as much as they lead men to God.

You said,
"because outside the Catholic Church, there was never, and never has been the celebration of Palm Sunday and ash Wednesday."

i have already disprove this to be untrue and uterly false as many xtians celebrate it and as for dates, i already told u it is older or as old than the canon of the christian bible, if u want a specific date make ur own research.

dolphinheart:
just qoute those verses and we will examine.

i actually quoted the verse here

the bible says
"joshua...prostrated himself before the ark" joshua 7:6


who is lying, you accuse
catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated before an image.

dolphinheart:
I did not twist the scriptures, I just gave you my own understanding of God's command using the details given by the scriptures as guide.

that is the problem, what the bible says and what u understand are different. The bible says "do not make any graven image unto thyself", ie do not make any graven image For urself, u understand it as, do not make image without command. Sorry but ur understanding is not what is written there.

[color=blue]]1Ch 2
11. David then gave to his son Solʹo·mon the architectural plan of the porch and of its houses, its storerooms, its roof chambers, its inner rooms, and the house of the propitiatory cover.
12. He gave him the architectural plan of everything that had been conveyed to him through inspiration for the courtyards of Jehovah’s house, for all the dining rooms around it, for the treasuries of the house of the true God, and for the treasuries of the things made holy;
13 .also for the divisions of the priests and of the Levites, for all the duties of the service of Jehovah’s house, and for all the utensils of the service of Jehovah’s house;
14. also for the weight of the gold, the gold for all the utensils for the different services, the weight of all the utensils of silver, and for all the utensils for the different services;
15. also the weight for the gold lampstands and their gold lamps, the weight of the different lampstands and their lamps, and the weight of the silver lampstands, for each lampstand and its lamps according to its use;
16. also the weight of the gold for the tables of the layer bread, for each table, as well as the silver for the tables of silver,
17. for the forks, the bowls, the pitchers of pure gold, and the weight of the small gold bowls, for each small bowl, and the weight of the small silver bowls, for each small bowl.
18. he also gave the weight for the refined gold for the incense altar and for the representation of the chariot, namely, the cherubs of gold that spread their wings out and overshadow the ark of the covenant of Jehovah.
19. David said: “The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he gave me insight to put all the details of the architectural plan in writing.”

2Ch 4:19,20,22: Solʹo·mon made all the utensils for the house of the true God: the altar of gold; the tables with the showbread on them;
20. the lampstands and their lamps of pure gold, to burn before the innermost room according to the requirements;
22. the extinguishers, the bowls, the cups, and the fire holders, of pure gold; and the entrance of the house, its inner doors for the Most Holy, and the doors of the house of the temple, of gold.

Ubene,pls tell if any of my following points is or are false.

here we go.

Below is what you said

"For everyone to be certain that these is a divine intruction, and for everyone to see that such instructions where followed in detail, God
had it recorded and
preserved."
you claim God did this for every image, ie "had it instruction recorded and preserved" the above passages talk abt d achitectural plan of d temple and it utensils, it didnt mention a single thing about the images i asked about, the trees and d winged creature i ask about, remember you said details were given and d instruction was RECORDED and PRESERVED.

analice107:
And Mary contributed her womb and beast fed the child, what else? And I asked you, Mary was Jesus' only parent, why is the lineage not her own? Why was she mentioned at last as the wife of Joseph, son of Jacob, son of... Why was she mentioned as a Wife?
In that genealogy, Rahab was mentioned, Ruth was mentioned, all these women played a part to the coming of the Messiah, all of them traced through Judah, not Mary. Why?

please humour me.

How is Joseph related to Jesus? Is he Jesus father or step father?
How is mary related to Jesus? Is she his mother or step mother?

dolphinheart:
simple, what jusmudi said is different from the scriptures you quoted. you can quote what he said and quote the scripture you gave and compare the two, they are not saying the same thing!

u are d one making the claim that the scripture i quoted and the one jusmudi alluded to a different, it is ur work to show that they are.

dolphinheart:
Well that's my understanding of the scriptures.
can you give your understanding of these verse?
New International Version
john 2:11What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.
are you saying jesus had performed miracle(s) before these and Mary had seen he could perform miracles?

note my statement:

, let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

i'll give u d right interpretation as a favour.

A sign in biblical terms, is what a prophet do or even a prophesy that must be fulfilled to show Gods power and dat he is frm God. That is why the jews asked Jesus for signs to show he is d messiah, it was like a public proof, something a prophet does to make others believe.

Put simply miracle does not mean exactly d same thing as a sign. A miracle is about God suspending d natural laws to intervene, a sign is a miracle 4 others to believe.

The bible says dat was Jesus first sign it didnt say it was the first miracle he performed. There is a difference.

Syncan:
Dear one, just like Ubenedictus asked earlier, you need to ask yourself and tell us what lineage is. I can at this stage plead with you to read Matt.1:1-16, and concentrate on the way each father beget the son, and the way the last sentence in verse 16 describes Joseph's relationship with Jesus. You'll find out that Joseph is only related to Jesus because he married Mary the mother of Jesus. I don't know why you have to say what you said, it's a basic knowledge in Scripture and Christiandom that Mary is more related to Jesus than Joseph. I wish you will be open to a fair discussion where you will acknowledge truth when it is revealed. However after Mary, Joseph is another great saint that Catholics venerate, he was privileged while on earth and he lived a holy life. Again I say Mary is not in competition with God nor with any saint.

she is trying to be funny, she forgot that Joseph contributed nothing biological to Jesus, joseph was not his biological father. They link Jesus and Joseph just because joseph married mary. Joseph adopted Jesus since he is his wife son. They are not related by blood.

Appareil:
Understood!!! By the Grace of God, through the help of the Holy Spirit, I can make a clear distinction between those categories you mentioned. Merci!

ok o, i no fight

dolphinheart:
Bro, I did not say "neither mary Or anyone had seen jesus perform a miracle" , let me rephrase: neither mary or anyone had seen jesus perform any miracle before turning water into wine. Hope you get me now?

that is ur own opinion not in d bible

analice107:
You still misunderstand. The house we all gather in, or the huge crowed we constitute, is not the church. You and I individually, are the church.
You become a church of Jesus christ, (His Temple) the day you have a revelation of who he truely is. That's why it takes just two or three of us to cause an earth quake.

i never said d church is the building, u are d one na forcing words in my mouth. I said the church is the body of Christ and I am a member in that body. That is what the bible says. It never said a single person is the church, it instead say d church is d body of Jesus and I am a part in it or a member.

If u wish to argue this then i'll have to allow u do dat with paul d apostle. That is what he taught.

dolphinheart:
just qoute those verses and we will examine.

i just did, now u can tell why it contradicts ur position.

Sacluxpaint:
Did Jesus die for you to experience purgatory?

again 1 cor 3:15, Yes Jesus died so I can expirence purgatory, he died knowing very well that I will be judge on my deeds, and because he died even when my works are imperfect i will still have salvation thru fire (purgatory), yes he died to make sure his mercy will speak for my imperfection and d bible tells me so in 1 cor 3

Did he die for half of your sins?

he died for all my sins but that doesnt mean my future sins are forgiven, d sins that are clensed are those i repent of and ask for his mercy. What happens if i die with a sin like idle speech (an imperfection) which i hadnt repented of? St paul say i'll b saved as thru fire.

You have no right claiming Christianity if you don't believe his death paid for ALL. If one is to believe Roman catholic purgatory, then you are indirectly saying his work on the cross was in vain. It's just like a father that toiled very hard to pay his son's school fees only for the son to go and steal to pay the fees, how would the father feel? Like it was all a waste. Please help yourself with isaiah 53:5 and Romans 5:8.

this simply means u dont understand scriptures.

Jesus death provided infinte merit, it is like a credit card that has the power to pay both past, present and future debt. Infact the bible says Jesus died for all, bt does that mean everybody is authomatically saved? No, u still have to repent, believe, confess wit d mouth and even b baptised, that is how the merit of Jesus is applied on a sinner, justification, then sanctification, and even when a xtain sins again it is still d same merit that is applied for d 4givenes of sins.
The death of Jesus is applied to us in many ways as sanctificatn, justificatn, as just blessings and graces for our life and 4 sins, paul tell me that even at judgement the merit of Jesus still speaks, he still clense me of my imperfection as thru fire.

D difference between me and u is dat I know the power of the merits of Jesus and I know it is been continually applied on me today and tomorow even when I die my father can decided to apply it on last time to save me as though fire.

analice107:
My brother, you are the church. The hunch Christ talked about is not a building.

true but not exactly. I AM PART OF THE CHURCH, A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH. The church is the body of Christ and i am a part in that body Jesus is the head, he found the church and did so on the apostles, that is the church i am in. Not the one made by men.

wadetaw202:
I'm not speaking; I'm typing....two different things

i knw u get my point.

dolphinheart:
No Bro, "do not make for yourself" means "do not make for yourself" . its like saying " let me determine, how when and what images you should make, and who should make it, dnt make this decision by yourself". All the images made for religious purpose then followed this discription. No image was made without command!, so in essence " do not make for yourself any image without my command!

you are trying to lie with th bible.
The words are "do not make for yourself" not "do not make for urself witout my command" that is how people add things to the bible, "do not make for urself" is clear enough unles u have problem with comprehesion, it simply means do not make any image FOR yourself, ie do not make any image for ur own use, it is a blanket rule and there is nothing about "without my command there" the passage doesnt say that whether u read it in greek or hebrew or english.

As explained earlier,
1. no image was made without jehovahs directive.
2. No image was made by anyone but the person jehovah directed to make it.

Images used for religous purposes today do not follow the examples and instructions layed down before now.



1 ki 6:32 The two doors also were of olive tree; and he carved upon them carvings of cherubims and
palm trees and open flowers,
and overlaid them with gold, and spread gold upon the cherubims, and upon the palm trees.
Ube, this is detailed enough!

u said every image had detailed command for it given by God, please show me where God gave the directive for the above image! The passage above tell us that they were made, now show me d scripture that says God gave a detail directive for them. For ur info d above images werent hidden.

As to the great winged creature, you would not have known that the creatures wings are great, or the materials used to make them if details where not given. Read 1 kings chapter 6.

where is d directive given for that particular image? U claim all images were from divine directive, where did God command that the above image be made.

Pls quote the verses for us to see!

have u lost ur bible?

dolphinheart:
I would have preffered if jusmudi provided the scriptures himself, cus what he said and the scripture you provided do not correspond.

you can xplain how they dont correspond.

wadetaw202:
Yeah, you deserve even a cvrse. You people claim to be close to God; you all claim to be pentecostals, but you even lack knowledge about what Pentecostal really means. You all condemn the catholic church, but your comments show that you all lack basic knowledge about Christianity. It is clear all you know is what your pastors tell you or what you hear from others on the street and not what you got by personally studying the Bible. It is disgusting to see stvpidity in individuals who claim to be better than others. Yeah,you pentecostals are empty headed... You really are. Many of you are just ordinary plastic chair warmers and nothing more.

calm down, take it easy, no one can listen when u are quarelling, speak softly.

Melkizedek:
I read your posts and I read the posts you replied and I must say YOU do not practice what you preach.your post has more vile, bile and insults than the post you quoted..all I have been seeing on your replies are 'stupid, fuulish, empty head' and so forth.if I happened to be an unbeliever, I know whose words to listen to..definitely not the one filled with anger and venom..oya rain the insults on me too. I care less.

it seems u didnt read the entire thread, her words are truly inapproprate and insultive (which shuldnt be), but she was well provoked

sapiosexual1:
I like the pope, he is a fine man. I like the Catholic faith, too but I really frown at their many rituals. Christianity is not methodical, it's as inspired by the Spirit.

xtianity has ritual deal with it, communion, baptism, ordination, anoiting d sick etc.

GlorifiedTunde:
Religion!

There is nothing spiritual about these popes. Its just a political role.

Many of their doctrines are against the biblical principle.

Did Jesus wash the feet of the heathen?

And people have turned this so called pope into a god. They listen to him rather than the word of Jesus our Saviour!

May many of us not follow men to hell in their deception by religion.

Jesus also washed d feet of Judas.

Sacluxpaint:
If it's not totally about Christ, don't call it Christianity.

even Mary, purgatory and intercession is all about Christ, there can be no intercession without that unique mediator called Jesus! He is the reason whx xtians can interceed, mary is who she is cos of Jesus, no Jesus, no mary, what is purgatory if not the application of d merits of Jesus who save our souls by fire even though our works are imperfect 1cor 3:15. It all is about jesus

Sacluxpaint:
Read about emperor Constantine and origin of catholicism. If it's not totally about Christ, don't call it Christianity.

constatine didnt start catholicism, he met it and decided to allow xtians worship without persecution, intercesion of saint and mary were there long b4 constatine was born.

Someone has misinformed u.

dolphinheart:
wish you would have quoted those verses here.
on the two occasions, they did not see the ark, talk less of veneration any image there.
They knew gods presence was with the ark, they where not bowing down to the ark or venerating it.(though it's covered).

hahaha

dolphinheart says "they did not venerate the ark"

the bible says "joshua...prostrated himself before the ark"

who is lying, you accuse catholics of bowing before image yet the bible says Joshua too prostated befor an image.

Have a good day trying to explain how u are contradicting scriptures.

analice107:
And when she interceded, do you remember what she said to the people "WHAT EVERY HE TELLS YOU DO". Pls show where Jesus commanded you people to do all you do in Catholicism? If you are such addent follower of Mary, then you shd do all Jesus commanded. Worship God in spirit and in truth. No specific location, no particular time, no particular position, not using any totem.

i always listen to those words "do watever he tell u" and the catholic church lives by them, we hear and listen to him that is why we hold on to d fulnes of d word handed on by both letters and word of mouth just like paul said.

I certainly worship him in spirit and truth just like d early xtians did.

dolphinheart:
Can you direct me to where that is written in the book of john?

john 3:14

dolphinheart:
you say something , and then you explain otherwise.
"what was written in the past is for our instruction", do you follow such instruction when making images?
Let's look at the things written in the past.
1. do not make for yourself
2. commands where given to make certain images
3. All images made without that command met with disapproval, either the image was made to represent God or not(under any religious purpose)
4.the command given where specific and detailed
5. The commands where recorded.
6. The images where kept in private, not seen by the majority.
7. The person in charge of making the image is specified.

does making the images of Mary and Jesus follow these instructions from the past?
Let's examine.

1. They make for themselves these images
2. no command was given to make images of Mary and Jesus.
3. no specific or detailed command to make these images has ever been presented by those who made them.
4. There is no record presented on the making of these images.
5. These images are kept in the open.
6. anybody can make these images.

so in what way have you followed the instructions written down sir?

that it was done then does not give you a right to do it now, doing it then comes after precise detailed instruction from God is given to a specified person or group. The opposite is what we find in the mass production of the images of Mary and Jesus.


let's even agree with the false notion that God began the new testament by making his own image. The making of these image was recorded, the source recorded as coming from God, the details where specific, the maker and all those involved are known. but soon after, the opposite is what you practice.

just as no command was given to the isrealites to make copies of these images, and the faithful ones adhered to this, no command was given in the new testament and you should have adhered by it too.

hahahb, do not make for urself simply means "do not make for your own use", it has nothing to do with whether a thing was commanded or not, stop spilting hairs.

Since u claim every temple image was given in well detailed instruction, please show me the detail instruction 4 d great winged creature in 1kg 6:32, wat about d images of trees we find in 1 kgs 7:41,42

dolphinheart:
I do not think it was because of that. Jesus was over 30 years of age, there is a probability that Joseph had died, therefore jesus was more or less the head of the family. Thus when the wine finished, Mary approached jesus to do something about it. A miracle was the last thing on her mind cus mary or anyone had not seen jesus perform any miracle before.

who told u neither mary or anyone had seen Jesus perform a miracle? Dat isnt in my bible oh!

analice107:
Wouldn't it be better if you post such a scripture here?

i already gave passages joshua 7:6, abi u no get bible?

analice107:
Sir, do you realize that Jesus' lineage didn't come through this Mary we are talking about here? It was through Joseph. Why is Joseph completely alleniated from the whole scene? To tell you the truth, Mary is not more important than Joseph in the whole Jesus' birth. Joseph as far as am concern is more important, because he is from the tribe of Judah, through which the promise was made.

please define the word linage

analice107:
O Uben..., Na wahoo. When you meet your God... Hmmmm.

my dear, if it is about worship i will be happy to meet my God cos i'll calmly tell him: "Jesus when u finished ur work on earth u gave u church d authority to preach, teach and celebrate ur worship, you promise d church d spirit of truth and gave her d spirit, gave it leaders promising them d power to bind and lose in heaven and earth, u promised to be with ur church for ever and promise never to allow d evil on prevail over her, i have worshiped in exactly the same way d church u instituted worships and teaches".

When i am in d church Jesus founded i am not shaken because error can't preveal against it, it is d pillar of truth. If i were in a church dat depend on d interpretation of their pastor and his opinion a an ecclesia community founded by man long after Jesus died and founded his church then i will be worried.

Peritus:
I'd rather be generic in my comment instead.
I keep saying this: people are so engulfed with what "church/pastor says" but have no time for what "God says". People are busy with doctrines and practices, but spend little or no time to know what God wants from them or how He wants to be served. We do not want to go against or question what church said, so we decide to turn a blind eye to God's clear instructions. Some of us read the Bible not to know God better, learn his ways and know the truth, but to find some distant pieces of evidence in support of our position and look up some weak defences too. The fact is that some practices were smuggled into the church by some adherents. Church has been greatly influenced by the leaders' individual/collective notion of right and wrong.

I dare to say this, even the church is not perfect. The book of Jude says that we should be careful because some ungodly people have slipped into our midst to distort the message of God for their immoral motives (just like the parable of the wheat and tares). These ungodly people/false prophets are always found at the pulpit or in the council.
Some church practices (without being particular) are so needless that I wonder how they found their way into the church, then I realise the power of the "world". The only way we can worship God in truth and in spirit is by following His ways according to the Bible. And yes, everything we need is in it.
John 4:23 says that time has come when by the power of God's spirit (Holy Spirit) people will worship the Father as he truly is, offering him the true worship that He wants. Vs 24 God is spirit, and only by the power of spirit can people worship Him as He really is.
I ask... what is the position of Holy Spirit in our churches? Are we scared of him? He is the minster of truth. If you you invite him into ur life, he will teach you the truth, but be ready to listen.
CHRIST ESTABLISHED THE NEW MODE OF WORSHIP UPON WHICH OUR JUDGMENT WILL BE BASED. It's not where we worship him, but how we worship him, and how we worship him could determine where we worship him.
cc. analice107, Ubenedictus

hehehe, i am always laughing when someone talks about Jesus instituting a new mode of worship, why? because it is true but the bible has little on it! Acts say d new converts were faithful to d teaching of d apostles and d breakin of bread, dat is d much it talks abt d liturgy, then in corithians we he abt love feast and d breaking of bread again not much details, if u are interested in such details then u much look at the writtings of d early church. U will immediately scream sola scriptural. U complain abt practices, d question is do they have significance?, do the practice help d church in proclaiming and living d faith? If it does....

Lastly d church has authority to teach, so u should be happy dat pipo check d bible for confirmation of wat they were taught. Scripture is profitable for many things, including teaching doctrines and rebuking....