₦airaland Forum

Maybe you don't get get it, but I am not playing the denomination card.

The way my mind works is simple, when I hear an argument I immediately match it to the "scholarship" from which it came, it genre and the group that holds it. That way I know where the person is coming from, his interest and perspective and I am more open to addressing it.

If you are a Christian and you believe Jesus is not God my mind immediately matches your thoughts to Arianism of the 3rd century CE, and it's adherent today chief among them the Jehovah's witnesses and the oneness groups.
If you believe that scripture contain all necessary for salvation, you may be any type of Christian but if you hold that all that truth is explicitly contained therein, immediately understood by anyone, and needing no explanation, then you are from the reformation time and have embraced a kind of Puritanism and fundamentalism common or originating from the American church, you are a Christian fundamentalist of a Baptist flavor.

By knowing the traditions you have adopted I can know how to speak to you. If I am talking to an orthodox Christian, we can discuss the mysteries, the economy, church fathers, pascal mysteries, Christus Victor... All these themes are totally lost on a protestant, with a Lutheran I could discuss the substantial presence of Jesus in the Eucharistic, that is totally lost on those who accepts the tradition of John Calvin.

When I hear a Christian arguing for homosexual sexual relations, I know those who are doing stuff in that area are majorly the Anglicans and Episcopal Church. Then I know where to begin the discussions.

I'm not playing at denominations, these doctrines you are teaching are tied to specific and very recent interpretative tradition that come from a placing of the present world ideas and superimposing them upon scriptures to make scriptures say what the world says.

I can look at the whole teaching, it's source and the interest it promotes. Then I can answer it well.

MuttleyLaff:
Do you always like this play the denomination card, huh?

This is sending me on an "arodan" worthless excercise, so lets cut to the chase, and both agree, accept and start recognising that keeping a beady eye on the times same sex sexual relationship appear in scriptures and their context was not of any particular concern of the Bible. What you ask for, is non existent, it isnt on God's radar list. What God was anxious and more worried about, were issue, like the overarching demand for justice, economic equality and the fair treatment of all right across board, even to foreigners and strangers.

Now, Ubenedictus, please elaborate more on what you, in toto mean by sodomy in your "... I am against sodomy" comment and the sentence in the comment means and is talking all about. Thank you.

God actually is concerned about all parts of human life, not just the overreaching theme of justice, love, and fairness. He is interested in the very things humans think, in their understanding of themselves, their understanding of the world, their understand of him, the use of the gifts he gives to men, their bodies and sexuality and it's right use, in their relationship with family, nations and foreigners. The God of the Bible seems interested in it all.


It is in the understanding of their bodies and sexuality, the right use and end of these gifts that the issue of sexual relations of all kinds fall into.

In analysing all that scripture says about these... I don't see how anybody will be talking of homosexual sexual relations and approving them by biblical or even Christian standards.

OLAADEGBU:
What Christian doctrine permitted you to torture 'heretics'?

the same one that allowed protestants to torture heretics

EdifiedHebrew:
THOSE IMAGES ARE THE IMAGES OF THE gods OF THE HEATHEN
the images of christains jesus christ are the images of cesare borgia, son of pope alexander.
he is a homosexual
he is a murderer
he impregnate his sister.
while the image of mary is the image of semiramis.

none of the images in the catholic church is Cesar Borgia, there were already images of Jesus Christ before Borgia was born and after his death they still exist.


The images Of Mary has nothing to do with Semiramis, it is the image found in the catacombs of the persecuted early church that is still adapted for every culture and in use.

It has nothing to do with pagans

budaatum:
Never said there was "truth to the claim that it was the Catholic Church that drove out the puritans" Uben.

sorry, I thought you implied it

googi:
Sometimes, I wonder why it took so long for folks within Edo to come out and tell the real stories the most prominent Bini historian wrote.

Pathological liars have distorted his great work just to sit on the shoulder of their Oba father and claim he is their son.

We have heard the truth for so many generations from the Urhobo to Ijaw to Ishan prominent son, Enahoro (personally).

Yet, they keep on repeating the same lies.

Please, let us move on so that we can hear more from other Edo people. The story of Ekhalerhan from Ughoton was just as moving and compelling because he was popular there and no soldier from Bini would dare capture him among his people until his death.

Please let us hear from more people in the area and learn history of our people.
Thanks.

Ekhalerhan didn't die in Ughoton, tradition says he is the oduduwa of the Yoruba people.

What you don't know is that oral tradition is not one. There are many versions to it.

Nodogragra4me:
I have told you that I do not intend to continue with a back and forth argument on something you are yet to provide scriptural proof for.



If you find it in that very scripture, then you also find the moon and waters and fires asked to pray for you or you mean to claim it is only the angels that was mentioned in your own version of the Bible. When meanings are not clear, start from the beginning and go beyond your focus... The summary of psalm 148 is this: let the heavens...heavens not heaven and the earth and all that is in it praise the Lord. Here is the complete verse since yours is not complete... Show me where the angles were ask to pray with us or for us, in the entire chapter


"1 Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. 2 Praise ye him, all his [1] angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, [2] ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for [3] he commanded, and they were created. 6 [4]He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass. 7 Praise the LORD from the earth, [5] ye dragons, and all deeps: 8 Fire, and hail; snow, and vapour; stormy wind fulfilling his word: 9 [6]Mountains, and all hills; fruitful trees, and all cedars: 10 Beasts, and all cattle; creeping things, and flying fowl: 11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and [7] all judges of the earth: 12 Both young men, and maidens; old men, and children: 13 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for [8] his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven. 14 He also exalteth the horn of his people, the praise of all his saints; even of the children of Israel, [9] a people near unto him. Praise ye the LORD." (AV, Psalms 148:1-14)






adding your opinion everywhere won't give it credibility...Go and read the scriptures again but slowly. It didn't indicate that any angle do prsy for you... The very one you have picked out never said they pray for you.. There are ministering angels for little babies... God expects you to grow hence the scripture that says you should desire the sincere milk of the word so you can grow thereby





YOU are not a smart person and I doubt if you have core understanding... Your very scripture says HE WAS GIVEN INCENSE TO MINGLE WITH THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS.... THE PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS.... AT WHAT point did he start praying for you in that very verse, point out where he assumed the praying...... He was given to perform the protocol established in heaven... He was given.. He didn't pray.... He was given and he was considering according to instruction....angles are servants..they are ministers of God instruction. You are yet to find an escape... You are dull in reasoning out the scripture because you are trying to do it like the Ethiopian eunuch...with the intellect




What you have posted from the scripture never alluded to anyone cheering you in your race.

See your closing remark.. A personal opinion of what you think is in the scripture not really what is in the scripture... Interecessor are fellow saints..saints here...fellow Christians not a make believe Mary, or angel Gabriel or saints in heaven

so this is what happens when you discuss with people who can't speak in a polite manner, end up with insults.

Oya thank for that. I don't have precious time to waste with someone who can't control his words

jesusjnr:
Only an unchristlike pope would not say what Jesus said, which is "go and sin no more"!

At least you've admitted that I didn't misquote him, so your assumption is subjective, since it's not your own quote, it's not up to you to decide which assumption is biased or not.

I would start calling you a ardent gay supporter from now on.

who told you they were sinning? All we know is that someone's brother had same sex attraction, who told you he was having gay sex or sinning?

Nobody said that, it is an assumption you made up in your head.


Why will I say go and sin no more just because someone says his brother is gay and was discriminated against?

Does that sound sane to you?

I can also start calling you a homophobic. Gay are human beings and I am happy to support them against unjust discrimination

MuttleyLaff:
I have so far been following in the quiet background, your interaction with keen interest and fully enjoying reading your comments on this matter with a gladdened heart

Why are you saying nobody is endorsing gay sex Ubenedictus? Especially when God never, at any instance, is against gay sex huh?.

The Bible never has said, it is a sin to have sexual feelings with anyone of the same sex. God too, has no problems with same sex couples, as in, consenting adults loving each other. God never said homosexuality was an abomination either Ubenedictus and trust me, jesusjnr knows this and more.

Nowhere in the original manuscript of the bible Ubenedictus, is homosexuality, even in the remotest, being mentioned as wrong or a sin. That nonsense and its accomplice other bunch of lies werent put into the bible, until the King James version was written.

Ubenedictus, I repeat the bible does not say same-sex love is sin, but it does say that lust, lasciviousness, being promiscuous, being unfaithful, infidelity, cheating, straying, fornication etcetera are sins.

Being gay is not a sin, gluttony, shaving your beard, eating seafood like lobster, shrimp, crab, catfish or pork etcetera is sin. God encourages people to love everyone even your worst enemies. By loving someone, you're doing what God asks us to do. When homophobes and/or homophobics, the likes of jesusjnr, elated177, Shepherd00, Agrogbeide, Alexandro15, TV01, ThothHermes condemn others for being gay, they're condeming love with hate, and this goes directly against, all that God and the teachings of Jesus says.

Ubenedictus reflect and ponder further more on the subject matter long enough please. Think about it, being gay, as in, same sex couples in a kind, caring, loving, committed, trusting and faithful relationship, is the only alleged and so-called "sin thing" that doesn't harm nor hurt anyone, doesnt have a victim, doesnt abuse a partner, doesnt cheat on partner, not into infidelity etcetera

Ubenedictus, if being gay, as in, same sex couples, in a kind caring, loving, committed, trusting and faithful relationship is not an affliction, then what is with you having qualms endorsing gay sex, hmm? If you know Ubenedictus, what it feels like to lie, cheat, steal, hurt, hate, lust, be jealous, practice idolatry etcetera and you've felt the negative consequences, please list what are the negative consequences and obvious negatives brought into the world by gays that compels that they be looked at as bad and threatening please?

Isnt it ironic Ubenedictus that being gay, condemned and purported as sin, shares the same passage with forbidding wearing clothing of mixed fabrics, cutting and trimming the hair on the sides of one's head etcetera but they arent the squeaky wheels, like being gay, getting the oil attention, huh?

We can, maybe later Ubenedictus, have you elaborate more on what you in toto mean by sodomy in your "... I am against sodomy" comment
cc Baddiezz, TV01, ThothHermes, noVBCampaign, Michellekabod2

lol, this seems like an argument with an Anglican.


You can happily paste, the time same sex sexual relationship appear in scriptures and their context.

Maybe we can start from there

Shepherd00:
The Catholic Church was so satanic to say the least. Imagine their methods of torture?

that person wasn't sincere to tell you that torture was considered legal in all medieval courts in the medieval times and that both, Catholics, protestants and Anglicans used it in their courts and in all countries.

The person also wasn't sincere to tell you that it is only in the church courts that certain torture was banned and when used only limitedly. He also didn't tell you that the clergy in the church court were also prohibited from administering torture and when used by others in a church court it must be in the presence of a doctor who is to certify that the torture does not maim and to make sure not a single drop of blood is spilt and only in cases where guilt has already been firmly established beyond reasonable doubt.


Ofcourse protestants in the medieval times also used torture and so did every European state, the only difference is that they did not have the prohibition and guidelines the Catholic Church had to prevent excessive suffering.

So which is satanic.?

EdifiedHebrew:
Catholic is the father of all abonimations on the earth.
Catholic is one of the worst enemies of the most high.

DANIEL 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

REVELATION 13: 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

and in your mind those passages refer to the Catholic Church?

EdifiedHebrew:
I was a Catholic before when i don't search the scriptures but Yahawah bahasham Yahawashi Hamasciach brought me out from that pity of hell satanic doctrine.

You're been decieved, the Catholics worship idols including all christains. The priests & the pastors tricks them because they love deceits by the cunning & craftiness of their Popes, Bishops,Priests, Pastors & General Overseers. they lied to the congregations.
Both Catholic, Muslims, Pentecostals all will be destroyed because they are the enemies of the most high Yahawah. PSALMS 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast.

10 The LORD bringeth the counsel of the heathen to nought: he maketh the devices of the people of none effect.

11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.

Peter was never a Catholic. The hands of All christains Popes, Bishops, Priests, Pastors & General Overseers are full of blood. the have devoured souls, they smell blood.

Christainity is one of the congregations of the dead PROVERBS 21: 15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

16 The man that wandereth out of the way of understanding shall remain in the congregation of the dead.
28 A false witness shall perish: but the man that heareth speaketh constantly.

lol

So you believe all these stuff you wrote?

zolajpower:
Yes he's working ,but hrs too shrewd and arrogant in his style of adminstration. The party chieftain complaining was right in his assertion ,he obaseki should have soft pedal and wait till his second term to elicit this attitude towards dem . Really Edo state is in Dept and crime rate is on the rise , so we wonder where d security votes money goes to . During comrade's regime crime rate was on the decrease ,bcus he was able to dialogue with the majors guys involved like kabaka and to mention a few who's boys perpetrate most of the crime to call and bring them to order . So whenever there's a crime incident whoever is involved will be fished out by their leaders. That was y a lot of the guys travel to Europe through by road left bcus of cult cases and other social vices in the state .

yeah, he is failing on security and party leadership

Tomide007:
The diff is that ordinary party member wanted abobode out....and besides lagos state is highly dominated by apc members from civil servants to market women to agberos but to do the same in edo is trying to push ur luck too far...apc might have done that in lagos but oshiomole is being stupid if he's trying to push obaseki out, obaseki delivered for that state ....apc would certainly lose that state.

this is not even oshiomole hand work, it is Benin politicians that are fighting him

hopexter:
You made him a Governor is what I don't seem to understand. Didn't the people of Edo state cast their votes on the day of Election? Or did the opposition party win and APC rigged it in favour of Obaseki. I need more enlightenment on this post pls

obaseki was an unknown person in EDO, nobody knew him and nobody would have voted him. He rode on the popularity of oshiomole, APC and the fact that he is from Benin.

In truth they actually made him governor

jesusjnr2:
That's exactly my point.

Your quote of your pope was exactly my quote of the pope, so I asked what's the point of quoting him again, if It wasn't to change any thing in my quote of your pope?

So whether he mentioned gay sex explicitly is besides the point here, because only the ignorant would not know that it was exactly what he did in the process.

only the biased will assume someone said what he didn't say

jesusjnr:
If Lot wasn't homophobic and you say I am, then provide proof of what I've done differently from Lot, for Lot told them not to act so wickedly, the same way i'm doing here.

For you say he was pretty catholic and you and your unchristlike pope have not told them not to act so wickedly as I have done, but are talking about gay being an adjective, and hence endorsing gay sex.

You are obviously being very sentimental here for that has been my issue with you, for you are supposed to tell them the truth like Jesus did, even th

gay is an adjective used to describe people who are attracted to same sex, it certainly is an adjective. Someone can be gay and not be a sodomite. You can be gay and not act wickedly, you can be gay and be chaste and a virgin. That someone is attracted to same sex doesn't mean he is sining so far he doesn't encourage the thought or act on it.

NOBODY IS ENDORSING GAY SEX, but I am certainly against unjust discrimination against gay people as I am against sodomy.

The truth has nothing to do with been homophobic

googi:
Some people are so blinded by lies, they ignored the obvious. Who conquered OGISO?

Evian dislodged the ogiso dynasty after the last ogiso died with only one banished son.

Evian killed a monster disturbing EDO and was made chief by popular acclaim bringing the ogiso period to an end and necessitating a mass migration for people loyal to the ogiso system.

The chiefs tried to play a fast one after the death of Evian, they made sure his son didn't ascend the throne and invited the banished son of the ogiso to rule. They wanted to unite the kingdom.

But that only caused more problems, oduduwa was already old and he sent oramiyan, the son of Evian took full political power and made sure oramiyan could never set foot in Benin. Oramiyan ran away when he couldn't make headway after he had impregnated a princess.

It was eweka his son with the help and training of the chiefs that defeated Irabor the son of Evian and formed the eweka dynasty. He had truce with Irabor who "sold" Benin to him, to be renewed whenever a new oba is installed.

After eweka took power those loyal to Evian also migrated.

There was another migration during the time of Ewuare and also Ozolua.

Nodogragra4me:
Sainthood is not a chieftaincy title a cone cap wearing character travels to confer on some dead persons after many years. It is a title that is automatic on all who have separated themselves as Gods people, here on the earth.

You don win, saints lives in heaven but they are not your prayer partners. The saints the scripture knows have prayers and material needs and face challenges here on the earth whereas your own saints are ensconced in heaven as alternate Jesus with full omnipresent capacity to be everywhere like Jesus Christ.

lol, the cone head people do no confer sainthood as a chieftaincy title, instead they are representative of the entire church recognising the sanctity of life of a fellow Christian. The practice comes from the early church that recognised a martyr and saints, that is why it is good to read up Christian history so as not to talk anyhow, condemning what you do not understand.

Saints certainly lived in heaven and are members of Christ's body, as such there is also a fellowship with them. They are not alternative to Jesus, they are members of his body praying for other members

Nodogragra4me:
I don't have the time for the table tennis argument. You win but remember that there is no where in the scripture supports your relationship with the saints you claim lives in heaven and prays or answers your prayers.

Jesus is the only way to the father... He said so himself... Saints live here and need prayers...they are not some prayer warriors in heaven... Angels don't pray, they are messengers, ministering spirits sent out of heaven to meet needs not to pray

Then you agree that we do not stop being the "Holy ones" when we get to heaven.


As for intercession, can the hand say to the feet I don't need you? The Saints in heaven are members of the same one family. They can't help but pray and cheer for us.

As for angels, In the Scripture we find prayers addressed to the angels asking them to pray with us, as in the opening verses of Psalms 148: "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"

The Bible also indicates that angels do pray for us. Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: "See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 18:10).

Verses in Revelation show the angels joining in prayers for us: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (vv. 8:3–4).

so how does that bother you that I am surrounded by such great a cloud of witnesses, cheering for me in the race.

It will also help you to read your Bible with understanding, Jesus is the sole way to the father and in Christ all Christians are united as one body, that is why we can interceed for each other

jesusjnr:
No you got it wrong, for it's the other way round, a righteous person is homophobic.

For righteous men like Lot, Abraham, Moses, Joshua etc. were all homophobics.

So if you are not homophobic in the righteous sense as I explained there, but endorse homosexuality as you're doing, you know the kind of mind you have.

no dear, neither lot, nor Abraham or Moses or Joshua was homophobic.


Infact lot was pretty catholic in his behavior with them. He lived with them for years, there was not a single recorded incident of him discriminating against them, abusing their inclinations or spitting at them, calling them gays, removing them from work, driving them from their homes and killing them. He lived at peace with them.

Abraham knew his relative was living among gay people and his didn't raise an army to murder them.

Moses didn't write a single law against people who were gay, he only legislated against those who practiced sodomy, so unlike you he wasn't a homophobic person scared of peoples inclinations, he only talked against their actions.


No dear you are the only homophobic person, you believe in discarding people because of their unwholesome inclinations. There is nothing righteous about that.


There is no sin in an inclination unless one accepts it and practice it

Even those who may have sinned are to be led to Jesus not discarded, abused, insulted or killed like homophobic people do

Eberejesus111:
Okay, I'm sorry sir. I knew about it, but didn't have time to change it and I thought no-one would notice it. thanks for the correction.

no problem

budaatum:
The puritans were actually trying to make the Church of England less Catholic after the reformation actually, and were resisted!

they were not resisted by the Catholic Church, there were no Catholics in England then, the Catholics were been killed and murdered by the Anglican state.

They were resisted by there fellow Anglicans who considered their teachings heresy. There is no truth to the claim that it was the Catholic Church that drove out the puritans.


Puritanism itself was considered weird, even today it's strain of though has twisted that of the reformation

usclem:
Below is what has been declared by Vatican Councils and in their Cathachism:
“We define that the Holy Apostolic See and the Roman Pontiff hold primacy over the whole world.” (34)
“All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that he is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope .” (35)
“No one may possess the books of the Old and New Testaments in the Romance language (such as French, Italian, Spanish, etc.), and if anyone possesses them he must turn them over to the local bishop within eight days after the promulgation of this decree, so that they may be burned.” (36)
“The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth …by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth.” (37)
“We confess that the Pope has power of changing Scripture and of adding to it, and taking from it according to his will.” (38)

which council and catechism talk this one?

Eberejesus111:
No that's not wholly true but partially, dear brother. The United States was founded by the puritans and protestants who had escaped Britain, mostly from Britain because of the Harsh catholic laws and principles at that time.

United states, initially was made to serve as an extension from Great Britain and they had still kept their draconian laws( one of them is the corn law) upon them. This was then the puritans and Christians had made a revolt against the British power at that time. George Washington, Abraham Lincoln( although fought for the emancipation of slaves) and the rest were all puritans or Christians. So he is absolutely right when he says, the United States was founded on religious basis.

Here's a link to further give grounds to the answer. According to CNN

https://www.cnn.com/privacy

And here is a short part to further the claims as needed.

Those colonies were founded as outposts of a Christian nation. With American independence, however, the British monarchy lost control over its American subjects. Champions of American liberty then celebrated their religious as well as political independence.

the puritans didn't escape because of harsh Catholic law, the puritans were been persecuted by the Church of England aka Anglican Church. It had nothing to do with the Catholic church

LoJ:
It is not possible to reduce the Templars to the catholic church. We all know it is the same catholic church that got them killed in thousands. Back then it was impossible to endeavour any spiritual quest without the catholic church, especially something as sensitive as what the Templars wanted or happened to do.

The idea that 9 Knights were enough to create an order to keep jerusalem safe for the pilgrim is very ludicrous. It is obvious they had another intent.

Look at it this way. 9 people get authorization from the Papacy to go and protect the pilgrims (which they never ever did). They go there and spend 9 years in absolute secrecy, and when they come back they build the greatest mystical organisation ever, as well as greatest financial empire.

We know from the discovery of the dead sea scrolls that there existed a scroll that gave enigmatic indications about the greatest assets of the Jerusalem temple, left and hidden by the jews during the Rome invasion and destruction. Scientist that followed the indications discovered nothing except evidence that some people went there before them - from all indications the templars (their unique cross and swords were found there).

Now when you realize they spent indeed 9 years in the ruin of the temple in total secrecy, it becomes easy to connect the dots.

I hope you know that a lot of this you wrote is myth?

jesusjnr2:
Genesis 18:23-32 (KJV)

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?
24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?
26 And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.
27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.
31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

So God would have spared the land of Sodom and her people, for the sake of just ten righteous men, to illustrate how important it is to have the presence of righteous men in a land.

And to fully appreciate this saying, this is what was said concerning the people of the land:

Genesis 13:13 (KJV)

13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

So they were exceedingly wicked and sinful men in the sight of God, hence God said to Abraham:

20 "...Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." Genesis 18:20-21 (KJV)

So it was because of their sin which was very grievous, that God wanted to destroy the land, but ten righteous men would have stopped Him from doing so.

Now this is not that God would take the righteous men out of the land, as He had done to Lot and his family, and still destroy it. No!

This was that that He would not destroy the land of Sodom with all the exceeding wickedness of the men of Sodom and how grievous their sin was, for God told Abraham that He was going to spare the land for the sake of ten righteous men.

I expect that Abraham would have been shocked to hear that, for it shows the extent of the relevance that the righteous bring to any land or people.

So it would have been foolish of the exceedingly wicked and sinful men of Sodom to take the righteous persons in their land for granted, for ten of such persons would have made them and their land to remain up till this very day.

However considering what the men of Sodom did in the instance of Lot, when he had some visitors in the city, it wouldn't be farfetched that there were up to ten righteous men in the land of Sodom at some point, but they had either killed them, or driven them away from their land, because the righteous men had tried to tell them the truth, that what they were doing was a very grievous sin, and hence that they should stop it. For it was said:

Genesis 19:4-9 (KJV)

4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
9 And they said, Stand back. And they said again, This one fellow came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, even Lot, and came near to break the door.

So the homosexual men of Sodom wanted to "deal" with Lot, supposedly the only righteous person left in the land of Sodom, for telling them the truth, that they should not to do such a wicked thing to the men that came to visit him, to suggest that they had done similar thing to the other righteous men that were in land with them, and perhaps why they didn't have up to ten righteous men in the land at the time they needed them the most, and hence the land of Sodom and her people are extinct today.

But what else would the homosexuals of Sodom have called a righteous man as Lot who told them the truth that homosexuality is a very grievous and abominable sin, had it been in this day and age, but a homophobic?

But they yet needed ten "homophobics" as righteous Lot, who told them the Truth about the grievous extent of the sin of homosexuality, just ten, within their city and their land would have been saved from the impending destruction and preserved til this very day.

So homosexuals think that the homophobics hate them, and yes it's true that there are those who take it too far beyond what it should be, even telling them the truth, as Lot would, and also as Christ would, that homosexuality is an abominable sin, and therefore that they should desist from it.

And I understand that, and would never support such extent of homophobia, which condemns, for if Christ who was perfect never condemned any sinner, I don't think that any other human has a right to condemn any sinner to that extent. So that's not issue here.

But that when it comes to the righteous homophobics as Lot telling the homosexuals the truth that such a lifestyle is an abominable one, and hence that they should not continue in it, that the homosexuals should never pray a day ever comes that such ones are no longer with them upon the Earth. For the day that happens, that would mean the end of the world.

So even though they may not like hear the truth concerning homosexuality, they need such righteous homophobics to be with them on Earth, if not within any of their cities, so that even if their sin is so grievous in the sight of God, that He wants to destroy their land, that He would spare the land and her people for the sake of those righteous ones.

For if the homosexuals of Sodom just had ten righteous homophobics, it would have yet remained till this very day.

The Homosexuals Need The Homophobics

so in your mind a homophobic person is righteous?

MiddleDimension:
my dear, please leave them alone, that's how his likes are, and there will always be his likes. you were once like him, now you are fairer in discussions. this has been achieved through your diacussion with atheists, agnostics and other secularists. you are ahead of alot of them. there would always be his likes who would be unfair in discussions.

i am glad that you can now see for yourself how difficult it is for us athiests to have discussions with some of you, believers. and i am also happy that you have made the slight shift i am ok with. of course you have not abandon your faith, i am DO NOT THINK YOU EVER WILL NOR AM I LOOKING FORWARD TO YOU LOSING IT. I CERTAINLY AM NOT INTERESTED IN YOU LOSING YOUR FAITH, but atleast discussions with you is fairer than it was then. you and @joagbaje are the best christians we have here on NL. @ubenedictus too is another one.

it is all about fundamentalism... I don't think it's about Christianity. People tend to defend useless structures and ideas they have been indoctrinated with. Sometimes they don't care to ask the critical question or reason about the issues.


Religious history is a long story of such people

blueAgent:
That particular verse is talking about faith and not praise, those men where mentioned because of their faith in God.

No where in the Bible are Christains instructed to praise the Saints or Mary or even Angels.

lol

So you are telling me that in the Bible there are no praises of righteous men for their qualities?

charliboy654:
We are saying same thing, Constantine n his mom were the backbone of ur church.

Constantine and his mom are not the backbone of the church, they are just members.

Do not be silly. Use google to check that information, its all available online, except you are too lazy to read.

that is called conspiracy theories, it is a stupid myth.

Islam was founded about the 9th century.

Jesuits were formed by St. Ignatius about the 16th century, 700 years after the death of Muhammad.

So how can the Jesuits found Islam.


Anyone who says that is ignorant and silly and very lazy to make historical research

Nodogragra4me:
Mr. Saint is a title for God's people while they are here ... You don't want me to flood this thread with all scripture where the word is found. Everyone that calls the name of the Lord is saved and is a saint. Whosoever believeth is a saint .. stop adding to the Scripture. Any Christian is a full saint not partial saint and is to be called same without any official Decoration

so after they leave earth they can nolonger be called "holy one "?

talk with wisdom and not prejudice

payosehtor:
for the benefit of the doubt I should direct you to the catechismal book/page but it's unfortunate I do not keep those kind of materials with me cuz, I 've grown passed the level of RECITALS (where in one is thought to recite prayers writen by someone else as if God is concerned with the charisma and not the heart intent)

sorry you are ignorant, the psalms Jesus Christ himself prayed are recited prayers, the our father and the grace you pray in your church are all recited. There is nothing wrong with such prayers so far you mean what you say.


There is no Catholic document that supports the nonsense you wrote