₦airaland Forum

PSTEMMA1960:
so honor and worship are 2 different things? God specifically told Solomon how the temple should be built.....and if was the images of cherubims and seraphims that were in the temple....and no one was bowing down before them...

As for knowing the meaning of "pope" I do not know and I ha haven't seen it in the bible b4....so u can do me a favor by explaining to me what it is...

pope simply means daddy, the same way you guys call your G. O. It is based upon scriptures where the apostle says "I Fathered you in the Lord ".

Honor and worship of God are two different things, I honor my parents, I worship God, can you note the difference?

Actually people were prostrating in front of those images in the Temple just as they bowed down before the temple itself.

jesusjnr2:
There's no point in this, because you are an advocate yourself of gay sex just like your mentor, so keep following in his footsteps, because if it's now normal to you for someone to be attracted to be sleeping with the same sex(gay), just like someone can be attracted to killing their neighbors(murderer), committing adultery(adulterer), defiling little and raping little children (paedophiles), raping fellow humans(rapists), etc. and you find nothing wrong with it, then there's no point for me to respond to you.

But so you know I would fight with every thing in my life any idea that it's now normal to be gay, and not a abomination as it is in the sight of God, for the Earth needs me to stand up to such perversion and destruction of the fundamentals of human existence, by satanic forces.

you have bore false witness and lied against me.

May God forgive you.

That tells me you are not ready for any type of discussion. You just want to perpetuate your opinions among your pals of like mind

jesusjnr2:
Yeah!

At least you know who the leaders of that church were, and they weren't going about teaching people anti-Christ doctrines in the name of God, and encouraging the worshipping of images as that of Mary, and endorsing gay sex, etc., but were preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God as Christ had commanded them to do.

So of what use is a useless church if they if they were there in all of the centuries and yet represent demonic doctrines that emanated from the pit of hell!

Don't worry when the time is coming and now is when you would remember that I told you I belong to that true church, and not the one led by and anti-christ, gay sex endorser, which you obviously are really proud of, for this dead church full of imposters which were planted by the devil shall be overthrown by the real and true church.

My Master is Jesus just incase you don't know, who told the adulterous woman go and sin no more, and that's the same message I have for all the homosexuals in the world, and not that gay is an adjective as your master would say, and I suppose you too.

your ignorance is rather unfortunate.

I'm really sorry, but your own prejudice makes you unteachable.

I pray God finds you with his grace

CosmoDroid:
There is no Jesus Christ. Religions are Programs of the Matrix designed by Europeans.

There was never any Jesus, the religions of Islam and Christianity were designed to divide and conquer nations by the Jesuit. Europeans had great minds who can program realities and you are the sheep.

This is a Simulated 3D Physical Reality with Spirits signing up to come here and Experience it.

But here, we can do what we want, it is a free-will Universe. So, the Europeans who got to know this early enough designed system that will enrich them for generations.

Oyedepo, Adeboye, Oyakhilome etc, I thank you all for understanding this and using it to your advantage so that the Catholic of Vatican should not the only ones vacuuming our money to Europe.

Since Africans choose to be stupid, I think more people should open more yahoo yahoo churches and make money. It is tax-free.

lol, so the Jesuit founded Islam and Christianity? Do you even know when the Jesuits were formed?

jesusjnr2:
There's no point in this, because you are an advocate yourself of gay sex just like your mentor, so keep following in his footsteps, because if it's now normal to you for someone to be attracted to be sleeping with the same sex(gay), just like someone can be attracted to killing their neighbors(murderer), committing adultery(adulterer), defiling little and raping little children (paedophiles), raping fellow humans(rapists), etc. and you find nothing wrong with it, then there's no point for me to respond to you.

But so you know I would fight with every thing in my life any idea that it's now normal to be gay, and not a abomination as it is in the sight of God, for the Earth needs me to stand up to such perversion and destruction of the fundamentals of human existence, by satanic forces.

An attraction is an Attraction, so far you don't encourage it and you don't act on it, it is not a sin.



I am attracted to certain types of women, so far as I don't encourage such thoughts in my mind and I don't act on it, then I have not sinned, I am also attracted to the idea of considering myself first... And some other inordinate attraction... If I don't encourage it and I don't act on it, they are just attractions, they come and go.

Even if someone is attracted to killing his neighbor, if he doesn't encourage such thoughts nor act on it then he is OK, just another flawed human like the rest of us.


If you think people should be discarded because their attraction aren't wholesome, then you should look at yourself, you must have a problem.

PSTEMMA1960:
so honor and worship are 2 different things? God specifically told Solomon how the temple should be built.....and if was the images of cherubims and seraphims that were in the temple....and no one was bowing down before them...

As for knowing the meaning of "pope" I do not know and I ha haven't seen it in the bible b4....so u can do me a favor by explaining to me what it is...

so you thought honor and worship are the same? When you honor your parents do you also worship them?


Actually people were prostrating in front of the cherubs, since it was part of the holies of holies where the Israelites directed all there prayers, praises and worship .


Next time before you condemn something, know what you are condemning. Only silly people condemn what they are ignorant of.

Now you can go and do your homework before you continue your condemnation

payosehtor:
So Jesus instructed that the bread be served as often as possible while the blood/wine be served only on wedding day and the first day of communion wright?
lets not derail or digress from the issue at stake, I was prompted to mentioned these issue coz the catholic church is dastardized by the kind of leaders they have along side their ever docile brainwashed followers who take solace in big churches most popular oldest church stuff. dont forget, I was one of that them

Biblically one may eat the bread AND drink the cup as several passages show, or one may decide to eat the bread OR drink the cup as 1 cor 11 shows.


1 Corinthians 11:27

New International Version
So then, whoever eats the bread OR drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

payosehtor:
People with sound judgment stand a better chance to decide on what that pope stand for

and you and your likes are the people of sound judgement who claim the Pope endorsed gay sex even when there was no such issue in his statement?

Yeye dey smell

charliboy654:
By Catholic Church u mean Constantine and his mother(Helena).

he meant the Catholic Church, the custodian of those sites till today is still the Catholic Church

payosehtor:
By that your question, I can sport a product of "infant baptised " otherwise you should have recited these rules in your baptismal classes

I was not infant baptised, and no such rule is taught in Catholicism, I have taught both children and adults classes.

johnmba:
We need to pray more for our priests. The devil is seriously fighting to distract them from their calling. Its paining me.

Mother pray for your sons priests and protect them from sin. They are humans with human frailties. Keep them to your son always ...Amen

amen

Daviddson:
I'm sorry, but I didn't read everything you wrote up there because it's unnecessarily wordy. But just know that the Catholic images and sculptures all over the world all serve one purpose - to be worshiped - some times, directly and some other times, indirectly. These ones here are a direct glorification and worship of demons and Satan. This is the hard truth. If I see something similar in a Pentecostal church, I'll point it out too.

images in the catholic church are not meant to be worship.


If you had read up you would have seen that

jesusjnr2:
Don't condemn evil, for your Pope would find it hard to condemn the abominable sin unlike Jesus who did, but would rather comfortably denounce those that would tell them the truth as Jesus did.

Do you even listen to yourself at all?

The word "gay" itself just like murderer, adulterer, paedophile, a thief, rapist, ritualist, belongs to class of words where a sinful or abominable act is used to classify or identify someone who engages in it.

So to classify "gay" as a mere adjective is like classifying "ritualist" as a mere adjective, and hence endorsing the abomimable act of ritual killings in that respect.

For very soon we have murderers, adulterers, paedophiles, ritualists, etc., movements asking us to just take them just as they are.

For instance the ritualists would say that they was born that way, to behead and dismember people's bodies, that do not judge them etc., and be asking for ritualists rights!

And if your Pope meets them and call "ritualist" just an adjective, and thereby endorses ritual killings, when someone says that he'd hence endorsed ritual killings by what he said, you'd ignorantly say that it's not the truth, that nobody is perfect with all these gibberish nonsense flimsy excuses that you woefully failed to use to justify the huge blunder of his.

So you'd keep defending such blunderous acts of your Pope opening endorsing gay sex and not ask yourself why he would not condemn the act as Jesus did, and tell them that even though he does not condemn them, that the lifestyle they lead is an abominable one, and hence that they should go and sin no more.

gay simply means same sex attraction, it doesn't necessarily connote sin, so I. I'm surprised you think it is equal to murder etc. That is just sheer ignorance.


I still can't find anywhere the Pope endorsed gay sex unless of course in your imagination

jesusjnr2:
Yeah!

At least you know who the leaders of that church were, and they weren't going about teaching people anti-Christ doctrines in the name of God, and encouraging the worshipping of images as that of Mary, and endorsing gay sex, etc., but were preaching the gospel of the Kingdom of God as Christ had commanded them to do.

So of what use is a useless church if they if they were there in all of the centuries and yet represent demonic doctrines that emanated from the pit of hell!

Don't worry when the time is coming and now is when you would remember that I told you I belong to that true church, and not the one led by and anti-christ, gay sex endorser, which you obviously are really proud of, for this dead church full of imposters which were planted by the devil shall be overthrown by the real and true church.

My Master is Jesus just incase you don't know, who told the adulterous woman go and sin no more, and that's the same message I have for all the homosexuals in the world, and not that gay is an adjective as your master would say, and I suppose you too.

actually the leaders you mentioned are the leaders of my church and I can point to their disciples in the 2nd, 3rd,4th till the 21th century, unlike you who imagine the church disappeared and reappeared with your 21th century pastors.


Interesting enough, the Catholic Church does not support the worship of images or endorse gay sex, that is the usual lie people like you who come out of a mushroom church tell.

jesusjnr2:
So what's the difference between my quote and your own quote?

in your post you said the Pope endorsed gay sex, in my post I showed the Pope didn't mention sex at all, talkless of gay sex

payosehtor:
that's the reason the other pope resignined

the other pope resigned due to old age and failing strength. He said it himself

payosehtor:
The reason I left that organisation as soon as I became matured enough to read between the church lines. spit on the broad way church

what reason is that? That you and the OP misrepresented a simple response and used it to launch condemnation against another Christian?

payosehtor:
His first day in that office, journalist sought his opinion about gay in the church, he simply told them "Who am I to judge" that was when I know him to be a gay pope

this is what happens when you read only half news.


Some Weeks after he became pope he was asked if the rumours about gay lobby in the Vatican was true. Because people had concotted those stories to spread homophobia. He answered that he has never seen anyone with a gay I. D card, he went further that if a gay people has good will and seeks the Lord who am I to judge him.

That is classic Christian teaching and clear catholic theology, once a person turns to God he has now put on a new creature, no man in the church should sit in judgement over his past sins or sexual orientation.

payosehtor:
I hate remembering some of the deceptions we where entangle to simply because it was the first church that came to our communities, how I served as alter boys , how the rev Fada will claim to 've blessed the wine and bread but he will end up drinking the Hough wine alone but only serve the Eucharist . all dark yrs in that church never witness any member served the wine, in short lets leave the dark and

so during marriages and first holy communion no body was given the blood?

And in your flawed understanding that immediately translates to darkness?

PSTEMMA1960:
where is the word "pope" mentioned in the bible? Peter was an apostle not a pope........and as for the image do catholics not bow down b4 an image during station of the cross......why bow down in the first place when u don't want to worship it?......God strictly warn the Israelite not to make an image in the first place.....

do you even know the meaning of the word pope? Let's start from there.

Is every bow an act of worship? Isn't bowing also a sign of honor?

If God is totally against images why then did he put them in his temple?

jesusjnr2:
Go to the book of Acts, for in the early chapters you'd find my church there.

lol, so after the book of act, who were members of your church? Who were members in the 2nd, 3rd ND 4th century? Or did it just reappear in the 21th century?

payosehtor:
No, in the catholic church, they have this this dogma/rule, DON'T SPEAK EVIL OF THE CLERGY/CHURCH. it's translate to mean "don't expose any thing done by the clergy. that's the reason why issues like immorality by their priest is never a big deal/heard of.

where did you learn this stupid dogma?


It certainly isn't from the Catholic church.


Speak only what you know, stop lying

femi4:
Olodo

wise man, God bless your great knowledge

Nodogragra4me:
You have left saint issue to jump to glorification. Is that how you were trained into reverend father. I expect you to show me from the scripture that your church is right to confer sainthood as a special title but you have left that to move into another arena.

You can't stay focused on a single subject matter and conclude it conclusively.

it is the same issue, while we are all saints, the Catholic Church uses the title saint which means holy one in a special way to refer to those, whose holiness is now assured with God in heaven, for whom it is now impossible to fall, aka glorification
it isn't a new topic, you imagine that the Saints are those justified, I agree, I simply add that those glorified have a higher claim to the title, since they are most certainly The "holy ones".

If you are expecting me to use the Bible as my only authority then sorry, I won't because the bible tells me the church itself is an authority, so too is Apostolic tradition, I will not disobey scriptures to follow the heresy called sola scriptura.


I have never claimed to be a rev Fr. So stop insinuating that I am.

Nodogragra4me:
Good to learn that you are two different characters who both are all the same reading the same book and arguing the same issue exactly the same way..

Trying to make atheists Christians, I will gladly join you but making them Catholics. I won't.. I have been one myself

then you have something in common with 9inces, he toyed with atheism too and had to rethink his believe system, I believe that is why he is Interested in arguing with atheists.

2.catholics are Christians. Pretty much the only ones for over 1000 years

Amhappy:
You sure know the history of the church. The church in Rome was never perfect but Rome was world power and things are bound to happen. And abstinence on good Friday is not one of the poor decisions.

abstinence on Friday wasn't a church of Rome thing, the entire church both in Jerusalem, Greece, England ETc, abstained on Friday, up till today, the orthodox church still practice abstainence on Friday, even the oriental, church, the Coptic church, ETc. Only the Anglicans who fell into Protestant heresy who don't.

Daviddson:
I have never beaten about the bush concerning my conviction about that building: everything about it reeks of Satanism and occultism. Why were the gargoyles not exclusively made of birds or those human beings alone? Why should the monsters and demons be included? Because the building was intentionally dedicated to Satan - there are no two ways about this.

Some extremist Pentecostal websites said: “Catholics are to blame for the flames at Notre-Dame. The building has a lot of demons on it. Catholics invited this upon themselves. “��‍♂️��‍♂️��‍♂️

In the past, when I was much more reactionary, I might have misinterpreted the intentions of those who have criticized the presence of gargoyles (demonic sculptures) in catholic Church building. But on a 2nd thought I think the sentiments of those who are uncomfortable with those structures are LEGITIMATE this.one.time. I don’t think they stem from anti-catholic prejudice that is prevalent in Protestant circles..... unfortunately.

So perhaps, I should say a thing or two about them. I’ve outlined four points.... strangely the last two are the most important. That has always been my style. I save the best for the last. The first two explains why Catholics allow paintings, images and sculptures in the first place.

BEFORE THAT, A PREFACE:
In my logic and philosophy class, back in undergrad.... I picked up something from my lecturer that changed my life FOREVER. He said: “when you want to criticize a people. Study them with a clean slate. Place yourself in their shoes. You don’t necessarily need to agree with them on the long run, but you’d see things in their perspective. In a way, this even helps you in countering their arguments at the very root.”

With this in mind, I plead that those of you whose anti-Catholicism erupts like a volcano, at the mere mention of the word: catholic, should keep calm and hear me out. You don’t necessarily need to agree with me, but at least you’d understand the reason why demonic sculptures are on some ancient catholic Churches.

THE REASON FOR DEMONIC SCULPTURES ON SOME catholic CHURCHES.

1. First and foremost, the Roman catholic, orthodox, traditional-Lutheran and traditional-Anglican understanding of “images, sculptures and paintings” is very different from those of most Protestants.

For Catholics, when God forbade the making of images, he wasn’t saying you can’t have images. He was saying you can’t deify (godize) images or worship them. A few chapters after God forbade the making of images, he instructed the Israelites on the specifications of how the temple of Jerusalem should be built. What do we find there: images, sculptures and unknown creatures. The most significant is the sculpture of the two cherubims above the Ark of the covenant on either side.

GOD CANNOT CONTRADICT HIMSELF.

If he forbad images, in their totality, why would he instruct that above the ‘holy of Holies’ (as the ark is called), should be the sculpture of two Cherubims. And remember, it was typical for the Priests to lay flat before it. In fact, non, but the tribe of Levi could even touch it. On one occasion, during the transportation of the ark, it almost fell from the hands of the Priests. Two lay men decided to save the ark from falling and the Bible records that the lord struck them dead, IMMEDIATELY.

This shows that the ark with the cherubims was very important, I could even say ‘sacred.’

Was it not the same God that instructed Moses to mould the snake and place it on a standard? And through it, transmitted his healing power on the Jews in the wilderness that looked onto it.

We can immediately see, that the biblical prohibition on statues are not absolute. What the Bible forbids is that “you shall not have any other god besides me.” Don’t deify images, sculptures and statues. Technically, if we are to apply the obscure logic used against Catholics, then the Bible might also forbid us having regular family pictures in our homes; It will be a sin for a grieving mother to kiss the picture of her deceased son; Rochas Okorocha might be on a first class flight to hell for his multiple sculptures in Owerri. (Don’t tell him I wrote this � ).

I know to Protestant sensibilities, the idea of Catholics bowing to images of saints, is a form of worship. But that’s not really true. I know we have some Catholics who are excessive about the outward practice of their faith, but we must look at official church documents and teachings. The catholic is not like some churches, where you do what you like. The catholic Church has canons, ecumenical councils, synods and official papal documents. If you do as you please, well you’re living contrary to the catholic faith. FULL STOP!

Anglicanism itself allows that joke. It calls it “comprehensiveness and diversity.” (This wasn’t intended to be a critique of Anglicans. I am only quoting the official church documents on diversity of theological expression as composed by Anglicans themselves in the Lambert Conference). CATHOLICISM calls that heresy.

More-also, If bowing to anyone but God is an act of worship, then we are in for a serious problem. Yoruba people will be going to hell for prostrating before their elders; the English and royalists around the world will also go to hell for ‘curtsying’ to royals. Lawyers also bow to judges. The lists go on. So we should be careful what we wish for.

So images are not forbidden by God but worshipping them is. Bowing to anything or anyone but God does not necessarily mean it constitutes an act of worship.

2. Secondly, it’s painful when modern lawyers are ignorant of history and the evolution of civil law.

Most of us don’t know that civil law in anglophone and francophone jurisdictions- in the past- were influenced by Roman law. It explains why ‘Latin’ was the official language of the educated in ancient Europe.

Law as obtained in common law jurisdictions (England, Nigeria, Scotland, some parts of Canada, Australia, Ghana, America etc), have their roots in ancient religions, particularly of Ancient Rome.

It is a principle of Roman law that ‘an act’ (actus reus) is not sufficient to establish guilt. The ‘mental element’ (mens rea) is important for someone to be guilty.

The same is obtainable in moral questions. So the fact that a catholic stands before a statue may constitute the ‘act’, we must consider the ‘mental’ element. Is that person intending to worship that statue as a god?

If you want my sincere opinion, NO catholic INTENDS TO DEIFY STATUES. I know some have extreme ways of expressing their catholic faith, but I have been a catholic all my life and trust me when I say: I HAVE NEVER EVER CONSIDERED A STATUE OR MARY AS MY gOD. I BELIEVE IN THE TRUDINE GOD like most Christians and nothing more.

In fact, two years into his pontificate, Pope Benedict XVIII excommunicated a group of nuns in Latin America. They claimed Mary was equal to the father, the son and the Holy Spirit. After asking them to recant their heretical position, they refused. THE POPE EXCOMMUNICATED THEM. And to date, they’ve not been accepted back to the catholic Church. But anti-catholic Protestant theologians will never ever report this sort of news, because it doesn’t fuel/feed their anti-Catholicism.

3. The cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris was built in the 12-13th century.

In those centuries and the centuries preceding them, most of Europe’s population was illiterate. So the church devised a means of teaching the illiterate population: it used pictures and sculptures. ART SPEAKS TO EVERYONE, even to illiterates.

So it became very usual for ancient catholic Churches to be filled with paintings, images and sculptures. The church uses them for teaching, expression of theological questions. Modern Protestants do the same. They act movies and cartoons of Jesus. Those are also images. Let’s not forget.

It is an extreme reading of the prohibition of images, sculptures and statues that has led Muslims to attack anyone who attempts to represent Allah or Mohammed in movies and cartoons. Christian biblical fundamentalists want to take us down the same cursed path.

4. About the presence gargoyles on church buildings ....... they are used as a depiction of the ugliness of sin, evil and Satan.

Strictly speaking, gargoyles weren’t even intended to depict demons. They were intended to depict how sin disfigures God’s creation.

The idea that they are demonic figures are funny. Non of us have seen demons, so where did we get the idea that gargoyles look like demos when non of us knows what a demon looks like

(All through this post I purposely referred to them as ‘demons’ because that is the popular opinion held......... I decided to flow with the ignorant.).

The ancients used it to show what evil does to the soul. That is why they are so ugly. To make that point they place the sculptures of gulgogs in obscure and disadvantaged positions, when compared to the apostles and the saints.

Notre Dame cathedral had the statues of the apostles elevated above the entire church on the spire. But the gargoyles beneath them. A copper rooster � is also placed atop the spire. In catholic iconography roosters � represent “announcing the gospel,” just as roosters do in real life every morning-announcing a new day.

That was a way of teaching the population that a life in Christ is an elevated way of living, while a life in the devil makes the soul ugly and unpresentable and is beneath those of the children of God.

Most importantly, they are placed outside the church. That was made intentionally. It was a way the artisans thought people that ‘outside the church/fold of Christ, all you have is darkness and Satan.

I am going through the pain of writing this long post so that Catholics can be understood from where we stand. We are not stupid to put images of Satan on our buildings without a reason. We hate him just as much as you do..... CUT US SOME SLACK.

We have reasons. They may not satisfy you but they satisfy us. And it is offensive to think that my faith must make sense to you. No! I am under no obligation to see things the way you do.

Protestants must stop this sheer nonsense of ‘arrogance of knowledge.” A subtle claim of possessing an accuracy of answers to all christological and Christian doctrinal Questions

Jalinspy:
Is he telling us something we don't know? Am not understanding o. And I didn't see where he even tried preaching to d g*y to repent . Let me have little patience more b4 my catholic faith dwindles complete.

everytime you meet a friend who fornicated do you always repeat "Repent! God is angry with you" or do you wait for an opportuned time to tell him we all are imperfect but we should make effort to drop our bad habits and then hear him out and his struggles?


Prudence is a virtue.


Someone said his relatives died because they were gay and you think the right thing to say is "they should have repented, God oh s angry with them"?


Abeg, use your faith well

iTearHerToto:
And it's a Catholic church


Pukes

not Catholic.

That's a protestant church

This is what the Pope said :


Giving more importance to the adjective [gay] rather than the noun [man], this is not good. We are all human beings and have dignity. It does not matter who you are, or how you live your life – you do not lose your dignity.There are people that prefer to select or discard people because of the adjective. These people don’t have a human heart. For those of you who are believers, pray for me. For those of you who do not believe, could you wish me a good journey, so I do not let anyone down."




I can't find any mention of gay sex or any type of sex at all.


The only thing that will spur this your tirade against the Pope must be that you are among those who scream gay before they remember we are all humans and who believe that gay people should be discarded.


If you are not in that group the Pope condemned, then why are you having heart attack?



The Catholic Church does not support gay sex, that much is clear. But we support human beings who may identify as gay, we don't disrespect or discard them
...and we always remember they are humans not their sexuality.

femi4:
God gave men right not "secular human right"

if God gave men rights. Then there is Human Rights In religion, chikena

ExAngel007:
Explain...

it is a kind of fast, some fast from food and water aka dry fasting, others fasts on food alone, some fasts on a sumptuous type of food aka abstainence.


On good Friday, young healthy Catholics do wet fasting and everyone fasts from what he/she consider sumptuous, some people fast from meat, others chocolate, others coffee... Or some other food type that they are attached to.