₦airaland Forum

plappville: I have no problem dear, You can't match Mary in this vision. if you do then you have to match the other symbols, it must go in line.
The way you exalt Mary is uncalled for, there is no instruction for Christians to continue exalting Her.

God chose her womb to make the entry of Jesus Christ into the world. I believe Mary was a saintly woman, but Christ died for her and Joseph also.
Just like you and i. Paul spoke in Romans 3:23 "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God"
This clearly means everyone. So why the over exaltion of Mary?

The woman is know, and have been revealed to you but you refused to accept it, Na so you like argument?

plappville: Do you ever agree on the truth? even when you are faced with biblical facts plain in front of you, you still use logics to dodge from the truth.

Back to your questions, As a typical Nigerian, we are known for anwsering question with question, Thats what i am going to do here
How did the early Christians interpret Exodus 20:6? do u realize that there is no real statue,picture or engraving of Jesus anywhre in the world?

If there was, all would be the same, because they would all be taken from the real one abi?.
How do u recognize Late president Sani ABACHA? Evidently, its because all pictures of him are taken from the real image of him.

Artist that drew pictures of Jesus for whatever use are all vary. Ve you care to know Why? because no one really knows exactly how Jesus looked.
Good The Bible was careful not to have given a description of Jesus looks, this may be so that artists could not copy it and make an image or picture of Him.

But the scripture told us about His earthly appearance in Isaiah 53:1-3,Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.

The early Christians could have easily made a perfect statue of Jesus’ image, but they did not, they must be holding on to the Ten Commandments forbiding such a thing. Everything changed when the Catholic sprang up. Idolatery became the center of christianity.

Christ had thousands who thronged him and who listened attentively to him when he teaches, Of course some of these listeners might be artistically talented people who could have drawn His face, Yet we have not one real picture of him anywhere.

Be informed that Jesus is not a Nazarite, but a Nazarene. Matthew 2:23 tells us this. So using it to back up ur reason why He should be painted with Long Hair is failed.

Matthew 2:23 "And he came and DWELT IN A CITY CALLED NAZARETH[/b]that it might be FULFILLED which was spoken by the prophets,[b] HE SHALL BE CALLED A NAZARENE." On the other hand, a Nazarite was a person who took upon himself the vow of a Nazarite. You know what i am pointing out.
So Jesus did not take this vow as plainly seen here.

Rich4god: Thank God am a CATHOLIC...

Boomark: He gave His commands and it was built to specification. Wait for His commands. Besides the image you are calling Jesus is not Jesus and not His specification. This make the image of whoever you are bowing to an idol.

ijawkid: God gave the isrealites those specific commands for a reason....God is the almighty....

The ark of covenant had its use in the temple.....that temple is no more....Jesus' death ended it......

If God did not command that his sons image be carved and used ,why do it??....

That's my problem.....when it comes to worship,wait for Gods commands and not yours.....

God who wants worship will always tell us how we should worship Him,and not how we wanna....

When we choose how we should worship God,that would be presumptuousness....

Neither Yahweh nor Jesus commanded you make the mouldings of the cross,mary,and Jesus and bow down to them or use them in worship....







Yes na...you been no know??.....

The pope hijacked the use of beads in worship from pagans .....it was planned and devoid of any scriptural backing......

ijawkid: No make me call you mumu o......
Early christians prayed with each other,...they didn't direct prayers through a particular earthly individual.......only Jesus has the sole responsibility of conveying our prayers to GOD....

Paul and all early christians never prayed through any individual except Jesus....you guys are doing exactly the opposite with mary.....

You guys pray through mary,hoping she will carry your prayers to God.....

Yes they are alive in Gods memory..they in the literal sense become alive when they are ressurected.....

That is why the word ""ressurection"" exists...

Your creeds have made it a must for all catholics....
Can any catholic let a day pass without praying through mary and bowing before her image??....

Boomark: Lie down to...sleep, rest etc
bend down to...pick, clean etc
fall down to...worship

there is a falling down and there is a 'to worship' about to take place and there is a rejection of the worship about to take place.

When God told the Israelites not to make image and bow to it, He knew they know He is their God.

Its either you follow God or you follow your Pope.

@ubenedictus
see your life! in the first place,are you italo? italo ask me a question and i have answered him, he seems to get the point,and im not surprised that you are pained to the fact that i exposed the error of using the ''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''as your reason to clearly violate Gods law by making images of mary,something he did not command. and obviously if there is a shame,i think should go and cover your face due to the fact that your religion has been exposed!


that is the 'bait' italo wanted to use,and it failed him,as it exposes his reason for mary's image!

the joy here is that i have expose the reason behind it,and it does not help your case but even ridicule the reason for your mary's image because it is''unwarranted prostration of joshua before the ark in disobedient''. only a fool will read the story and still bother to give a yes or no.

see your life here again!
why cant you quote the chapter and verse in the book of acts? where “Virgin Mary” mary is mentioned,again you are embarrased and i challenge you to quote it, ''virgin Mary''.

read these again! you have not denied them;
“HAIL, HOLY QUEEN, Mother of Mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve; to thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.

[size=18pt]“Sustain us, O Virgin Mary,[/size] on our journey of faith and obtain for us the grace of eternal salvation.”

see your desperation, what of the last book of the bible see the warning pop-up again;
Revelation 22:18-19

18 For[a] I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; 19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book[d] of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

i think you need to read and read well,im making a case for 'sacred scriptures' and again is Maccabee part of the sacred scriptures? yes it is a scripture,but was is a sacred scripture? stop evading questions!

you know that you are toiling the embarrasing way of our discussion on trinity,if you can remenber until you got y'slf embarrased completely! until a catholic like you told you to hands off! that trinity was 'not defended in the bible' you thanked him and left,isnt it, now you are toiling that path!

plappville: I know that Long hair was never a case in the OT, but viewing this verse, you will believe that Paul was talking about Long hair and not Braided hair.
But as you say, So its now all about translation error abi? ok, so Paul was referring to fixing the hair in a feminine manner?, He was not condemning Long hair for men?

I agree with you that The OT never gave praise to long hair. In Judges 16:17, It specifically states Samson never had a razor touch his head. And Numbers 6:5 and 7 speak of the Nazarite vows’ requirement of not cutting the hair.

Also, in 2 Kings 1:8 the messenger’s description of a man with long hair and a leather girdle caused the king to instantly realize it was the prophet Elijah. The Hebrew words the servant used to describe Elijah were ba’al sa’ar which means "lord of hair."
In 2 Samuel 14:25-26 Absalom’s long hair was praised for its handsome appearance.

With all these scriptures showing biblical figures discribed with long hair, i believe Paul would not teach anything contrary to the rest of scripture.
Therefore, i will agree with your argument. But that doesn't validate the picture Catholic gave Jesus Christ. He was not discribed with this look You gave him.

plappville: You haven't find who the woman, why are you rushing to find who the child is?

Things should be taking step by step, If you can figure out the woman, then you can try to know what the other signs are because the Woman is the
most beautiful part of John's vision. Anyone who sees her and know her will admit that she is the beautiful sight in this Revelation 12.
So please try more to know this woman first. It pays to learn from others.

I am Not seeing Mary in this vision, Imagine when John describes the Woman as crowned with twelve stars, sun-clothed, and standing on the moon, i think John pictures her as one possessing every luminary of heaven. The sun, moon, and stars are the avenues of natural light, and in John's vision, you will agree that every avenue of light worked through this woman. How does the Bible discribed Mary? did the bible exalted her as much as you do today? and what makes you believe She is this woman with all these lights?

seriallink: Are the prophecies in Revelation for the future or have been fulfilled already? How could the birth of Christ be applicable if the prophecies are for the future? Are you saying Christ is going to be born the second time?

Since the prophecy is for the future, it is clear that it has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. There is no doubt, there are different interpretations to these prophecies, but yours my friend is completely wrong because Christ cannot be borne twice!

Revelation 1:19-20 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Try other interpretations my friend. I know you are just doing it to justify Mary's title 'Queen of Heaven' but all those bullcraps are unscriptural.

Try again!

ijawkid: If you made carvings under the direct commands of Yahweh then it isn't idolatry....""YES""....

Wait for God to give the command...that is my point...

For you to make images and carvings for worship out of your own assumption or originality is idolatry.....

The bible has shown that......

Joshua and ,mose§ did not wake up
One day Ànd make the ark of covenant and the bronze serpent respeÇtively,without Gods own direction or command....

Never!!!!!!!........

I don't have to find any where in the bible that says ""thou shall not use beads in worship"".....

All I'll do is go through history books to show you how you guys hijacked that practice from juju worshippers.......
It has no connection with past servants of the only true GOD.....

Boomark: Fellow Christians who are alive. They did not ask a dead body to pray for them.

They should have asked Stephen to pray for them since he died before them. Abi they no remember him again?

ijawkid: Jesus saÝing those words connotes that he'll ®essurect those who die.....

""Ressurection "" was the issue thÉre.....

Paul asked all christians who were( alive) to pray for him.....he also put those same brothers in his prayers too........

For you to suggest that pauls request included the dead faithfuls to also pray for him is fallacious......

Besides marÝ must have been alive then too,why didn't he(paul) just go pray th®ough her.....??

ijawkid: There are millions of angels in heaven.....
Don't compare an angel(s) with mary...you must be sick to do that...

Just one angel in the bible killed more than a hundred thousand assyrian soldiers,so I wonder why you should ask me how myriads
Of angels can notice when a sinner repents...

Think well o my brother...

Angels are very much powerful and numerous to know what each human does,and who repents or not......

Lol.....sorry to burst your buBbles,but mary
Is doing zilÇh for you guys or for any other servant of God who is alive today.....mary has no role in the chain of worship...no scripture supports that....its just a false assumption by you guys......

For you to create this chain:::: mary»Jesus»God. , then there m
ust be a problem.....

The last time I checked you bowed before her image and rendered words of devotion to her.......na because I never come use cane flog your yansh when you dey bow down to her image na him make abi??.....

You guys have put mary high on a pedestal that is false........

It wasn't written so you had to instigate it right??.....
It was not written by the apostles because they never engaged in such disgusting acts.....

ijawkid: There are millions of angels in heaven.....
Don't compare an angel(s) with mary...you must be sick to do that...

Just one angel in the bible killed more than a hundred thousand assyrian soldiers,so I wonder why you should ask me how myriads
Of angels can notice when a sinner repents...

Think well o my brother...

Angels are very much powerful and numerous to know what each human does,and who repents or not......

Lol.....sorry to burst your buBbles,but mary
Is doing zilÇh for you guys or for any other servant of God who is alive today.....mary has no role in the chain of worship...no scripture supports that....its just a false assumption by you guys......

For you to create this chain:::: mary»Jesus»God. , then there m
ust be a problem.....

The last time I checked you bowed before her image and rendered words of devotion to her.......na because I never come use cane flog your yansh when you dey bow down to her image na him make abi??.....

You guys have put mary high on a pedestal that is false........

It wasn't written so you had to instigate it right??.....
It was not written by the apostles because they never engaged in such disgusting acts.....

Callotti: Little boys are not safe in ANY Catholic church!
First Baptism? CO-RK SUCKING behind the 'pew'!

Callotti: By the holy ghost. . . .you are dumber!
I mean 'dumbness' filled with the holy spirit!
Ewu!

ijawkid: Serria I agree with you....

That male child certainly cannot be christ as far as that prophecy is concerned...

Because Christ had already been born a long time ago.........

Since the ""woman"" isn't a literal woman,definitly that ""male child"" isn't a literal male child....
@UBE.....
Hope you are not still holding on to the fallacy that mary is the woman revelation 12:1 is talking about??
Eh??

plappville: There is nothing like anti-Catholic broo, don't allow urself to be fed with these lies....

[b]The book, The Thunder of Justice, further claims that "the prophecy of Genesis 3 has been fulfilled with Revelation 12, where Mary is the great sign in Heaven: 'And a great sign appeared in Heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twelve stars.' Pope Paul VI, in his 1967 encyclical, Signum Magnum, identified the Lady of Fatima as the biblical representation of the Woman clothed with the sun." (The Thunder of Justice, p. 88). The book further states that "Mary, the Woman clothed with the sun, appears as a sign and explains the secrets of the Book of Revelation."

Also, they claim that "on April 12, 1947, at Tre Fontane (Three Fountains), in Rome, Italy, Our Blessed Mother announced, I am the Virgin of Revelation." (Ibid. p. 89). And if you listen to the words of Father Gobbi, one of the Marian Movement's priests whom Mary seems to have communicated through more than any other individual, This Father claims the Virgin Mary told him on April 24, 1980,as follow: "I am the Virgin of Revelation. In me, the masterpiece of the Father is realized in such a perfect manner, that He can shed on me the light of His predilection, The Word assumes His human nature in my virginal womb, and thus can come to you by means of my true function as Mother. The Holy Spirit draws me, like a magnet, into the depths of the life of love between the Father and the Son, and I become interiorly transformed and so assimilated to Him as to be His spouse...I will bring you [plural] to the full understanding of Sacred Scriptures." (Ibid., 90).[/b]

Where did the bible told us that Mary will interprets scripture in place of the Holy Spirit?

"But God hath revealed them unto us by His Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God...the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God....Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth: comparing spiritual things with spiritual." (1.Cor 2:10, 11b, 13).

The Thunder of Justice continues: "Above all, I [Mary] will read to you the pages of its last book [Revelation], which you are living. In it, everything is already predicted, even that which must still come to pass, The battle to which I am calling you is clearly described, and my great victory is foretold." (Ibid.).

plappville: He is not confused at all, you have gat to take your time and Read carefully.
Isaiah 66:7-11: 7“Before she goes into labor,she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
8Who has ever heard of such a thing?
Who has ever seen such things?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.
9Do I bring to the moment of birth
and not give delivery?” says the Lord.
“Do I close up the womb
when I bring to delivery?” says your God.
10“Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her,
all you who love her;
rejoice greatly with her,
all you who mourn over her.
11For you will nurse and be satisfied
at her comforting breasts;
you will drink deeply
and delight in her overflowing abundance.”."

Here, Isaiah prophesied ages before Christ, of a woman bringing forth a 'man child.' "She," verse ten tells us, is Jerusalem,
Isaiah should be referring to the New Jerusalem.

Revelation 12:5 said the woman brought forth a 'man child;' Isaiah 66:7 said Jerusalem was delivered of a 'man child.'
Now Isaiah 66:8 expresses astonishment: "Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things?"
Just like you believed @i.chuka was confused. Think about it, What was so amazing that Isaiah would be so surprised? Isaiah saw a whole nation, born in one day. That is something outstanding no? I believe this Revelation is deeper than we see it.

CrazyMan: The woman, representing Israel

The dragon, representing Satan

The man-child, referring to Jesus

The angel Michael, head of the angelic host

The offspring of the woman, representing Gentiles who come to faith in the Tribulation

The beast out of the sea, representing the antichrist

The beast out of the earth, representing the false prophet who promotes the antichrist.

Are you now clear on the whole issue...

seriallink: What you guys have to understand is that, no one is an expert in breaking down prophecies, especially the ones in the book of Revelation. Just because one of the prophecies literally sounds like the birth of Christ, doesn't necessarily mean it is the birth of Christ!

The prophecies in Revelation are for the future and haven't been fulfilled yet, so, I don't see any reason why it would be referring to the birth of Christ that has already been fulfilled over 2000 years ago (Even before John was given the revelation).

Revelation 1:19-20 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

So, lets not jump to conclusion that Christ is the MAN-CHILD being referred to in Revelation 12; we need to use scripture to interpret scripture. I have read different interpretations of that Chapter. I'll post some of the links tomorrow so you guys can go through and compare.

Interpreting prophecies is not an easy job. No body be BOSS for this one, I beg una! No rushing!

obadiah777: THE WOMAN IS ISRAEL. THE CHILD IS CHRIST. THE 10 HORNED BEAST IS THE ROMAN EMPIRE UNDER HEROD

frosbel: This Woman is the nation of Israel, the crown of 12 stars represent the 12 tribes of Israel.





Pained to be delivered with the messiah




Satans attempt to destroy Jesus through Herod at birth , failed woefully





Jesus was born through the nation of Israel.

After his accomplishment, he was caught up in a cloud to heaven from where he waits till his enemies be made his footstool.

pastormustwacc: This is interesting, but i really wonder the person that is really confused.

ijawkid: Keep laughing and wallowing in idolatry...

You know exactly what you are doing.....

God gave the isrealites strict directions on how the ark of covenant should be constructed....it was built according to Gods own metrics and standards.....
______________________
All this was done so that the isrealites don't ""presumptuously"" make graven images or moÙldings that would result in idolatry....
______________________
If you notice I have been using this word ""presumptuous"".......

...............

This is why I wonder on whose commands or precepts do you have the images and mouldings or carvings of the cross,mary,the rosary etc in ya church....??

Is it Christ that gave the command??is it Yahweh??or the scriptures??.......

Can't you guys for once wait for God to give commands on worship before your itchy and desperate hands act presumptuously just to satisfy your pagan quest??


ImagÍne you guys using beads to wo®ship and pray.....
_________________
Who else did that but buddhists,hindus and pagans before it was hijacked by you guys......

_________________
You really think God will listen to prayers that were offered through prayer beads??.....


Any isrealite who tried that in the past would have been killed.........

ijawkid: Jesus gave the older men in the church the responsibilty to praÝ with tho§e who are weak or sick spiritually........

I neve® heard that §cripture say ""older women"" or mention marÝ.......

WhÉn you read the scriptures read the lines well....

BesidÉs those men were alive(not dead)to pray with there fellow christians....

And also take note..::::.....those early christiÀns never went abÓut praying through those older men when at there homes or where ever they could find themselves..........

MARY is dead and cannot interceed for 1 billion people......nobody gave mary that responsibility......

ijawkid: Mary cannot pray for the 1 billion catholÍcs around the world....she is not omnipresent....don't you get it??....

Nobody gave her that ability....for y'all to assume mary can hear and convey prayers is a false claim without any scriptural backing......

And who is she conveying or praying to for you guys??that is my question.....

To who??.....

The last time I checked a woman(mary) was not in the chain of worship......

I dey tire for ona make I no talk lie.......

No apostle,not even peter approached mary after Jesus' ascension....they had no business with her.......

doingreat: we are nt talking abt worship. The bible condemns mere USE OF IDOLS and images in His worship. John 4:24. 'God is a spirit and those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth'

coretechng: Thou shall not make for yourself graven images......very simple instruction.Why is this hard to follow?