₦airaland Forum

Sissie:
Mere dating!

Yes, "mere" dating. Implying it is not as reprehensible as you deem it.

Why my defination though? I clearly said whatever you understood by it.

Yeah i see all you listed as going near zina. Going near it could be done different ways.

And you see dating roughly close to zina as those? I believe I 've made my point.

You are on the other extreme end of the spectrum, and like the same way the extremist on the other end of the same spectrum dont see themselves as extremist, you dont either.

Hmm... Who determines the range of this spectrum? Be careful with using a term like "extreme" because it relative one and has varying specification for varying observers.

Sissie:
Courtship within limits is allowed in Islam.

Usermane you know the Quran says do not go near zina. not hadith but zina. so lets assume dating whatever you understand by this is allowed, considering people who are able to avoid pre marital sex all through irrespective of religion or race are the exception and not the norm. How do propose the "Do not go near zina" restriction assuming they stated dating from high school which you implied is haram. Not commiting zina is quite different from going near it.

Please, define dating. If you see mere dating as going near zina, then how about night clubbing, masturbation, watching porn or checking a brothel?

Ps: we aren't fighting. because most of your post are always on the defensive, assuming everyone in this section is fighting with you. main reason i avoid replying your post or when you mention mod.

In most cases, I come on defensive because of my past experiences here; unwarranted bans, deleting of clean posts, biased moderating geared towards guarding mainstream Sunni interpretation of Islam from any kind of criticism.

Empiree:
You definitely have problems with almost every injunction in Islam. There are other factors you need to consider. How else you want them to slit the throat?. And they have to clean blood soaked soil after every slaughtered animal before the next?. As you can see, these are multiple qurbani. Not possible to clean after every ram.

You are not serious, man. The safety and well being of animals to be slaughtered ought to come before anything else. If they are willing to kill so many at a time and place, they should be ready to clean up the place after each slaughter. This is common sense of respect for the rams and those consuming it. Even an atheist should know this.

Where did you get the idea @underlined from?. Isn't that violent act?. I really want to know what you mean by that. Usermane, you are incredible.

I have no time for lecturing, Empiree. Go do your homework on stunning and the different types.

Critisize all you want. Can you sincerely say you can slit ram's throat with single swift even with a sharp knife?. This is not chicken buddy.

Yes. This is absolutely possible with well crafted knifes or machine blade designed for this.

Empiree:
proooooblem? nah.

Lol, you missed it. Go back up there buddy.

No, I didn't. You posted a verse forbidding extra-marital or pre-marital sex. Of what concern has that verse with dating? Please think. That wasn't an intelligent response so I quietly ignored it in order to save my time.

Empiree:
This is why i disagree with usermane approach. This is what happens (link below) if muslims are to adopt his philosophy. Read the link below see how terrible they live.

http://community.babycenter.com/post/a32948410/nothing_prepares_you_for_a_loser_baby_daddy.

They just have babies like birds. No women's honor whatsoever!

Hey, big man, what 's your problem with me? I maintain that the scriptures do not prohibit mere dating or courtship and i stand by that. You claimed otherwise but have failed to give evidence from the scripture so far. I don't give a damn about the Muslim community accepting my philosophy because it add nothing to my well being. The only reason i come here to post is to let out the truth. If i convince anyone, great. But if i don't, it doesn't change anything. I never claimed to be perfect but i know i am right on several claims. In a community that is absorbed in self gratification, hero-worship and self-righteousness, i feel great to go against the grain.

For the story you refer us, i can refer you to several stories of happily married couples who have dated from high school or early college years. The problem with you is that you only see sex whenever dating is mentioned because you have been wired to do so by your ulamas. You 've repeatedly proved that you know nothing about dating or courtship even though you stubbornly argue concerning it. Just like you argue with me regarding animal slaughter whilst knowing little about it, no more than you were taught by Sheikh Imran Hosein.

PS: And you should stop talking about women 's honor because your religion grant women no real honor. There are already enough proofs for this, you just can't see this because you are living far from reality.

Empiree:
2015 Eld Adha/Qurbani - Morocco


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLwOEXAfdoY

Damn! I will not eat from these rams if i happen to be anywhere there. This is horrendrous and an insult to Islam! Slaughtering animals like cavemen from prehistoric times. Dragging tensed, innocent animals like harmful beasts to a blood soaked soil and beheading them like this deserve condemnation from any good willed person.

It is also not true that animal slaughter as done in traditional Muslim societies is humane and painless. Animals should rather be stunned before sticking their throat, this eliminates pre-slaughter stress and tension the animal may face. Plus, a painless beheading or sticking is achieved with a single swift unidirectional stroke by a very sharp knife, not bi-directional strokes as common in traditional Muslim societies like in the above clip.

BetaThings:
They can actually see what they are stoning - there are three pillars
Aqabah
wustah and
Ula

They are physical structures, visible and stonable

Because of the crowd, many of them actually don't see what they are stoning, they just aim in the direction everyone is aiming.

I think this is the most ridiculous aspect of Hajj. Stoning a symbolic representation of the devil don't change anything. The devil just watch from above and laugh at you because right as soon as you are done wasting your time or hurting yourself as happened this year in Hajj, you still remain vulnerable to his whisper and temptation as before you stoned

The best way to reject the devil is by forgetting him, meditating on God and engaging in noble, humanistic acts. Not by stoning a concrete pillar!

Anyone looking for the reference of this hadith should look Sahih Bukhari; Book of Menstrual Periods; Hadith 301.

I don't understand what the OP don't get here. Traditonal Islam regard women to be intellectually inferior to men as implied by this Hadith. That is why, under Shariah, a woman cannot be a leader or a judge. The testimony of a woman is generally half of a man 's. You don't need to take my word for it. Do your homework, study Books on Shariah and see the judicial system of Saudi Arabia or Iran where women cannot be rulers, their testimonies in court carries far less weight than men and they cannot serve as judges to decide on cases in such courts.

Conclusion

The antagonism between a just and equitable system prescribed by the Quran and the system Shariah dictates need no further ado. Yet over 90% of Muslims lack the decency, rationality or gut to admit this. For my brother-in-Law and my mom, the birth of this baby, my nephew is a call for rejoicing. Yet, for me it mean more. It is a reminder of the ills of Shariah, its antiquity, inferiority to contemporary secular laws and deviation from the Scripture.

https://flamesoftruth./2015/09/28/shariah-and-citizenship/

Shariah and Citizenship

Though hardly admitted in the traditional Muslim cycles, there exist an apartheid system like state of religious stratification in Shariah compliant societies like Saudi Arabia and Iran. Implying that certain religious beliefs must be accepted and certain must be rejected in order to acquire as much rights as anyone living in that region. Strictly speaking, Muslim under Shariah have more rights than non-Muslims and non-Muslims under Shariah have no chance of gaining citizenship unless they embrace Islam. Saudi Arabia and Iran make good cases for study of citizenship according to Shariah. An Arab non-Muslim indigene of Saudi Arabia descent get far less rights than an Indian Muslim expat in Saudi Arabia regardless of how much the non-Muslim contributes to the society whether economically or security wise.

Delving into specifics, it is of particular importance to treat freedom of religious expression at this point. While, a Muslim under shariah can freely express his beliefs, hold public religious services, build new temple, proselytize or propagate his faith via books, newspapers or TV, a non-Muslim cannot. A non-Muslim under shariah is no citizen because he lacks the right to be voted for in political offices. There are non-Muslim expats in Muslim states particularly the Gulf states. Even though they long to acquire full citizenship in these states, the future remain bleak for them. Saudi Arabia, for instance has not a single official church on her soil even though ironically the same state fund massive construction projects for thousands of mosques in the West where Muslims are minority. Non-Muslims in Saudi Arabia are forbidden from Makkah and Madinah even if he grew up in these cities as a Muslim but later apostatized. Public sales of non-Muslim religious items like Bible, crucifix, Christmas trees and celebration of non-Muslim religious festivals like Christmas is not permissible under these Shariah states.

Introduction

In the last days of 2014, with my sister; his wife, my brother in law migrated to US for his PhD. By August 2015, the delivered a baby boy. Sitting in the US embassy in Abuja(Nigeria), my mom was elated to learn from the officers that her grandsonvirtue of his birth on US soil is granted US citizenship.

My mom and brother in law are passionate defendants of Shariah and Shariah regimes in the Middle East, whose passion for Shariah sharply contrast my passion against Shariah. This, devolving in intense disagreement between us time and again over what is Islamic law and what is not.


Citizenship

Citizenship is a status that accords one the same and as much rights and responsibilities as everyone living in a region or geographical location. Citizenship in modern secular states is available to all regardless of beliefs, race, or tribe. One ‘s personal ideals or philosophy on God is not relevant in acquiring citizenship in modern, democratic, secular states and so any one, whether Muslims, Mormons, Atheist, Christians, Jews, Hindi or Pagan can gain citizenship by birth or naturalization. All citizens under such states have the same right which they exercise to the same degree.

By mid 2013, I was inspired to embark on an arduous investigation of my religious beliefs, beliefs and doctrines instilled in me from early childhood which I had held sacred and unquestionable as most Muslims. Thanks to deep research on Quran, traditional Muslim literature and history, by the onset of 2014, my beliefs had radically evolved. No longer would I qualify as an orthodox or mainstream Muslim.Those well acquainted with me need no reminder of my firm stance against Shariah. My three part critique of it basically summarizes it all:

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3

Despite the hype and assertion by traditional Muslim clergy, an objective and detailed analysis of Shariah in its orthodox interpretation is anything but divine; contradictory and negating of Quranic principles and precepts ordained by the most high.

Dennygirl:
composure draw him in then brain keep it going.

You know what, this is subjective and how do I trust your claims? Rather, test my generalisation on this with the following topic;

www.nairaland.com/2627403/guys-ladies-what-kind-girls

Here is the original post by a man:

We all have different taste and desires, some like their men huge,muscular, taller and some guys like their ladies big, I like my babe a bit big, busty, yanshy and romantic.. What do u like in your partner?

Watch for more

Dennygirl:
even apart from my boo i have met matured niggas that dnt give a damm about a lady physical apearance as far they are looking for long term affair, most guys who go after women cos of physical appearance dnt really last long in the affair cos the brain na empty koko, ntin to give apart from flabby laps and doggy style.

When your boyfriend first asked you out and expressed his feelings, did he tell you what particular drew him to you? What was his first compliment about you? Was it about your beauty or your character/brain?

I disagree with 1. Says who? For 90% of men, looks or beauty is what matters. Unfortunate but fact. How many men ever admitted they fell for a lady due to her mind or wit? How many men praise ladies for their mindset or personality? It is always about beauty, the skin. Sit among bachelors and hear them discuss women. Hear them compare and analyse women exclusively on the basis of beauty or feminine features.
Many women get attention and compliments from men over their looks or beauty but seldom or never over their mind or personality

You can find nice ladies anywhere, but you have better chances of meeting one in a library, museum, religious temple or offices than a club, campus, cinema or street.

Seriously, OP, i get the message even though i find most of the reasons on your list to be exaggeration. On the contrary, i believe there are ideal wife materials among Nigerian girls. You only need patience to meet them. My take; stop asking out ladies. Study ladies way beyond their looks to inquire if they are worth asking out. Most guys just go ask out a pretty lady they barely know, woo her and begin a relationship, then complain when she break their heart. No lady deserve to get your love merely because she was blessed with beauty. They ought to put effort on improving their character.

See my thread for why i do not ask out ladies; https://www.nairaland.com/2616346/why-never-ask-ladies-out

runnazz:
Well @op u got some valid points tho but I still think you are taking this way too serious Lolzz I mean like u really do study girls before you ask them out? dude..i ask them out to get a chance to study them and probably know if she's for keeps or just another fling.. to each his own sha but God put us on this beautiful planet with so many beautiful women & there's no way am gonna be on the sidelines observing.
Where u are making a big mistake is You don't need time to ask a lady out..u like her ask her out get to know if she is what u want for yourself

You fall for beauty ? Beauty is only skin deep. I cant fall for a lady simply for her looks. The looks may be attractive but the attitude is what draws me. Ladies do not create themselves, rushing to ask her out because you find her looks stunning is basically flattery. Of course, i must be physically attracted to the lady am asking out but her looks alone won't move me.

Plus, ladies tend to pretend, giving false impression about themselves when on dates so a date is not the ideal avenue for studying a lady you are considering for keep. Better watch her from afar, for a while on the sidelines before deciding to ask out or not.

Again @ op u made me laugh when u said a girl replied u in a way u weren't expecting her to when u just said hi to her but that shouldn't have stopped u from telling the next girl she looks great, or whispering to a nice looking girl close to u that she smells good or just winking at a pretty lady u had eye contact with without even any further convo..just compliment and move on no biggie ... I do this all the time and can't even remember u when next we cross paths. ..if not drop her or just remain good friends n if yes proceed n let the passion drive u...

Lol . How can you advice me to do this? I am not a doormat or robot without feelings. Would she be pleased if she says "Hi" to a stranger and he/she coldly responds with "What is it?" Shoot, i owe her nothing and neither do i beg anything of her. I bet if she needed me she would have replied more warmly. Oh! Typical ladies, treating you like crap when they need nothing from you(especially when it seem you need from them) but acting all sweet when in need of you. I don't want such selfish ladies, i want someone with a good heart.

but in all never beg, bribe or buy a woman's affection it ain't worth it man...apart from that this ish ain't half as serious as u are painting it to be.. sometimes u don't even have to ask a lady out to be with her...it just happens when passion drives..my $1

Thanks fella, i ll be sure to keep that advice.

OZAOEKPE:
"God bless usermane, only that Seun and lalasticlala don't want people to see this story".





I know you remember me, alias oremussanctus.

Thanks man. Still remember you. Hope you are good?

Richy4:
I read your bold remarks sir and it occur to me that
What you are looking for is a dog.

A trained dog is loyal, respectful, really sincere to the owner and got humility over it's tails.

Go to a dog store and buy one.

Out of point. So any lady that is respectful, considerate, sincere and transparent is a dog? Get over it.

Before cutting right to the chase, i need the reader to go through the following questions. Generally;

A. Who sacrifice more in relationships, who look out more for the other, men or women?
B. Who has to keep the relationship going with gifts and dates, men or women?
C. Who generally has to step out of his comfort zone to initiate things like asking out on dates or proposing for marriage, male or female?

You will agree that for 99% of relationships, the answer to the above questions is 'male'. It seem that all women do in relationship is merely sit and enjoy while all the work have to be dealt with by men.

But how many among these ladies deserve you walking up to them in the street, market, school or beach to pick a friendly conversation, exchange contact and eventually asking them out? Barely 10%, if you ask me. From my experience the rest 90% are mean, aloof and awful. I am no way talking about rejection here. Who is concerned of rejection nowadays with the rise of online dating and match making? Am speaking about the attitude of these ladies towards men that express interest in them either via requesting for contact, asking out or striking a warm casual conversation with these ladies. For instance, i have got responses like "what is it?" from a woman i merely said 'Hi' to. This is rude and arrogant, and unwarranted even if she was trying to dissuade me from her. And this basically sum up why i don't ask out ladies.


Why do most ladies sound impolite and unfriendly when men seek their attention?

One reason is that they do not appreciate your time and attention, most ladies get approached so often by men that they have become full of themselves. They see themselves as a precious gift, holy grail for men who will will undoubtedly overlook all all their misbehavior to gain their attention. And this partly explains why most ladies do not ask men out or seldom make the first move. They feel that their attention is just too precious to give away easily and seek the game of "hard to get" instead.


Without asking out ladies, how do i meet ladies i might be interested in?

Do not be fooled by my title of this write up. I do ask out ladies but in a different sense from most fellas. For most men it is normal to fall for a lady on first meeting, exchange contacts and already be on date expressing their feelings to her in 3 to 4 weeks or even earlier. This attitude of men partly account for the egoistic behavior of ladies towards men seeking their attention, particularly those men they are disinterested in. Asking out a lady on a date shortly after meeting her, when you barely know much about her is putting her on a pedestal unduly.

I have met several pretty ladies whom many men in my shoes would have fallen for and pursued on first sight, i do not regret missing these women today. To ask out a lady, i need time. I want to determine her degree of humility, respect, generosity, altruism, transparency and sincerity. Is she considerate or opportunistic, is she forgiving or vengeful? Trust me, most ladies lack these qualities. They will go length to improve their superficial beauty but won't move a finger to improve their character or inner beauty. I am not as superficial as most dudes who spoil these women. And without the above qualities, i do not give a damn about even Miss World. This fully explains why i almost never ask ladies out. The result of doing that is not usually worth the effort, time or emotional trauma it cost most men. Even when i find a lady that posses these aforementioned qualities, i make a move only when she give clues that she is interested or ask me out herself.

This is bad news. Saudi Arabia 's plan to build these mosques is just part of a grander scheme to extend and propagate her Islamist hedgemony and ideology in Germany. There are lot of non Muslim expats in Saudi Arabia and the state law don't even permit them to hold public religious service, let alone build their temple.

enieme:
Hmm, srry o but if I may ask,what sect do u belong to or what madhab do uu follow ? Cos urs seem totally different from d view d general muslim population hold

Salaam. I do not belong to any sect or madhab. The reason why i seem to hold heterodox views is because my interpretation of Islam is largely based on the text of the scriptures rather than traditions or teachings of clerics that most Muslims have accepted. When faced with a question regarding religious issue, I dig the Qur'an for answers and hold whatever i find in it. To me, the Qur'an isn't merely an overview of Islam as most Muslims regard it, it is a detailed outline of Islam whose meaning can only be understood from within it, not from outside.

Empiree:
^ good one usermane. I like your analysis in first paragraph. But the second one, you off actually. There is no where in the Quran it permits muslima to marry people of the Book. Correct me if am wrong.

Simply apply same analysis given in your first paragraph, you would see why muslim women should not marry Christian or jew. Besides, Quran recognizes superiority of men over women (not in terms of taqwa) whether male is muslim or not. Therefore, logical deduction is a muslim woman marrying Christian or jew has no protection of her religion.

There is no where the Qur'an prohibit Muslim women from marrying men of the people of the book either. If you had understood my post, you can see clearly that my conclusion that non polytheist men of the people of the book is permissible for Muslim women is in line with my analysis in the first paragraph. Islam is not limited to Muhammad and the Qur'an, the earlier you realize that, the better.

Empiree:
Now to your question, we know Quran places restrictions on men and women relationship. Like courtship, boyfriend/girlfriend thing are not allowed. Now I understand some people want to justify "how am i going to know my future partner". See, it doesnt really make any difference. Take Western world itself as case study. Boyfriend and girlfriend may be together for a decade, The moment they plan marriage and live together, they dont last either. I have pondered over this many times. The only "benefit(s)" they derive from it is sexual pleasure. Thats just simple truth. Their courtship in most cases last longer than real marriage. My point is, it doesnt really make difference whether spouse know a lot about her partner or not. A very simple qualities about him/her are enough. There is no need to dig as Sheik Imran once said. He said 'dont dig too much trying to find out or know everything about your future partner. It's unhealthy sometimes doing that. Although and of course it's very important but it has to be done old fashion. But who does that in today's world....few.

Please kindly present the Quranic verses that prohibit courtship or dating for marriage. For all i know, the Quran only prohibit taking secret lovers or fornication(Quran 5:5). Courtship is not necessarily a secret affair and neither must it involve fornication. You also seem not to understand what dating and courtship is all about. Dating is getting to know someone you are considering as a potential spouse while courtship is preparation for marriage. How are these prohibited in the Quran? Most Muslims who claim not to court or date actually court or date without realizing it. Unless your marriage was 100% arranged by your family without your consent, you actually courted, dated or did both.

enieme:
Wa alayk,
Hmm, u know I agree with d rest of ur post xcept this part. Its. Beliving maen that can marry from any religion from among those categorised as the peopkle of the book(christians and jews alone not including deist, theist nd all)
Beliveing women on d other hand can't marry outside d religion.

The Quran does forbid believers from marrying polytheists. Then, the Qur'an permit believing men to marry women from among people of the Book. So, can Muslim men marry women from among the people of the book who bow to Jesus? Contrary to widely held traditional view, this is not permissible in the light of Quran 2:221. Anyone who invoke another beside God is already a polytheist, not a valid person of the book. Any Muslim man who insists upon marrying a woman, say a Christian that invoke Jesus is marrying a polytheist. The logic here is easy to grasp. Think about it like this; supposing the doctor forbid you from eating canned food and enjoin you to eat fish. Will you eat canned fish like sardines? Obviously not, because it is still canned food even if it is fish.

That been said, the Quran does not forbid Muslim women as men from marrying from among the people of the book. With regards to marriage, only polytheists are off limit for Muslim women or men. A Christian, Jew or Deist who isn't a polytheist but believes and serves only the supreme God is not prohibited for Muslim men or women.

Faith Lehan from Buffy; The Vampire Slayer season 3 and 4 was way cool for me.

I 'll share my own list since i know barely much about these characters. In no particular order

1. Huey Freeman; Boondocks TV series and comics
2. Batman; DC animated universe and comics
3. Tintin; Adventures of Tintin comics and TV series
4. Revolver Ocelot; Metal Gear Video game series
5. Brainiac(Technological genius); DC comics, animated universe and Smallville TV show.

Peace!

She should marry someone she loves who is a monotheist and good willed. There are people who will just say; "well, marry the one you love". But love alone can't sustain the realities of marriage. There are others who will advise; "just marry anyone that proposes as long as he is religious or 'upright' in the religion". But 'religious' men do not necessarily make good husband. In fact, they can be over-possessive and domineering. I tell this from experience.

Islam prohibits believers from marrying only polytheists(Quran 2:221). Aside polytheists believing men and women can marry any one whether Deist, Christian, Jew.

babylolaroy:
this guy is one weird dude. its been a while av been here so av kinda missed your banters. its belated buh m gon ask why u dont attach any religious significance to eid

Welcome back. You know, we are discussing doctrines here and any Islamic doctrine must have it root in the Qur'an. A doctrine devoid of theological roots in the Qur'anic passages and unjustiable by moral or legal precepts of the Qur'an cannot be so central to a believer 's faith. This is the case for Eid. Look through the entire passages of the Qur'an, the word 'Eid' is used only once; Qur'an 5:114, where Jesus asked God for a table of food as a sign & for the disciples to feast. No where does the Qur'an imply Eid as traditional scholars posit today and no where can any prescription of an feast or celebration at the end of Ramadan be found in Qur'an.


See here is another problem with Eid-el Fitr. Fasting in itself is not achievement, but rather a means to an achievement. Unless one is certain that his fast were perfect and have been accepted by God, why make a big seal out of it with Eid-el Fitri?

Truthpallbearer:
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, "Binding upon you is my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided successors, bite on to that with your molar teeth. In another narration, He mentioned the splitting of the Ummah and those that will be saved are those that are upon that which him and his companions are upon today. Quran 9:100 and other related verses indicated those that are to be taken as a model and guide, the shias reviled the companions and make takfeer of them, these statements are in their books and other than that. The shias and khawarij are two sides of a coin- offspring of Abdullahi ibn Saba al-Yahoodi al-salool. A lot of people have been drowned by their intellect as intellect alone is not sufficient to decipher the truth. I have tried my best and Allaah is my witness against all of you. The shias are not Muslims as their creed is built on imamate and they consider their Imams to be infallible , seeking aid from the grave, seeking protection from their awliyas and other forms of shirk. Do not be deceived by their outward display of pity and love.

Am no Shiite and my post had no reference to Shiism. What I observe here is the evident degree to which Muhammad has been idolized and venerated as God 's partner in the traditional Muslim ideology. These Muslims have no problem with images, videos and dramas with Moses, Jesus, Angels and other messengers of God but when it pertain to Muhammad, they go bonkers and intolerant. You cannot present one verse in the Quran that justify this, one verse in the Qur'an that consecrate and elevate Muhammad beyond other messengers or angels.

Truthpallbearer: He said the Prophet (pbuh) has special physical and moral features that should never be portrayed in film. “The film makers are not reflecting the reality,” he said.

Peace brother, are you and the Sheikh insinuating that Muhammad is not a man like us but much superior and incomparable? Otherwise why can't Muhammad be portrayed in drama or graphically depicted in pictures or videos? Please read the following verses attentively, there is a very fine line between respecting the messenger and associating him as partner with God.

Quran 18:110
Say, "I am only a man like you, to whom has been revealed that your god is one God. So whoever would hope for the meeting with his Lord - let him do righteous work and not associate in the worship of his Lord anyone."

Quran 41:6
Say, "I am only a man like you to whom it has been revealed that your god is but one God; so take a straight course to Him and seek His forgiveness." And woe to those who associate others with God

I 'm no intellectual slave to religious scholars or clerics. Truth is the only thing, the only thing I ever sought on Islam. I may hold heterodox or controversial views, but at least I always stood for textual, logical and decipherable proof regardless of the doctrine or dogma in question.