₦airaland Forum

m.k.o2005:
If i may ask,do you think there were as much bankers,shippers,oil industry workers,architects,town planners and the likes of all the predominantly modern workers and biznesses as we have them today back then in Jesus' time ? Men were predominantly farmers and they gave tithe in that line !

Nobody argues that they were not predominantly farmers, it was still a society (maybe not as sophisticated as modern day) but you are very likely to have service providers. Jews were working for their rich brothers and earning wages as well. The salary earners did not and were not required to tithe.

m.k.o2005:
Go study ur bible you will find out that men tithed gold,silver and even iron related materials ! When Jacob tithed or vowed to tithe of all that he possess,who told you that all he had was just vegetables and coco-yam! He gave a tithe of all that was given to him !

If men tithed gold and silver, it was not under the law. Maybe you are referring to Abbie. Whatever Abbie or Jacob tithed was rendered irrelevant after Moses dished out the law. Abbie & Jacob's (if he tithed) type of tithing was nailed to the temple's wall as it was not allowed under the law. So if people gave gold or silver pre-law, God canceled such form of tithing under the law, and it was the tithe under the law that Jesus encouraged for those under the law.

m.k.o2005:
If God gives me cassava,i will tithe in cassava ! If he gives me veggies,i will tithe in vegies,if he gives me cows,i will tithe in cows,if goat,i do it in goats,if mushrooms,i do it in mushrooms and if cash,i will tithe in ...cash.. Fill in for me Zikky please!

Done! as requested. My question for you is this; who told to tithe mushroom or cash

m.k.o2005:
Now who said i can't spiritually use cash to represent my vegetable and life stock blessings ?

I honestly don't know how you want to achieve this. BTW which one be vegetable and livestock blessings

m.k.o2005:
If he could receive Gold,silver and iron materials ,then he can accept my naira and dollars !

@bolded, who told you God received gold, silver and iron materials. Lol! @ iron materials, you think there are construction work ongoing in heaven abi?

m.k.o2005:
How come you are the one telling every one the reason they tithe ?

Only those i can vouch for; people like you.

m.k.o2005:
Since you say i am not tithing to support the work of God,then i should say i tithe becos i wan to support the work of the devil

Its not about supporting the work of God or devil, that na window dressing. from the way you been twisting scriptures, it's very obvious your tithing is based on some profit motive. The man tithing out of love will not need more than a post to state his cause.

m.k.o2005:
If you tithe to Christ,who do you expect HIM to tithe to ? Abraham tithed to Melchizedek (Jesus)who can decide to do what ever pleases HIM with the tithe !

You said Abraham tithed more after tithing war booty and Melchi disappeared after collecting the booty. my question was; who collected Abbie's other tithes?

So, since Melchi is Jesus what happened to the booty? are they in heaven? you know the booty may include animals like horses and/or donkey, maybe the donkeys are running around in heaven as we speak.

m.k.o2005:
To tithe to God is presenting it in HIS presence via his earthly representatives with heart full of thanks and praises out of Love to show appreciation for what HE has done and still doing in ur life !

So the pastors are representing God. who are you representing then? Satan? so are they going to heaven to drop the tithe on your behalf? maybe that's what the PJs are for Did God tell you to give his tithe to a rep? Jacob told God he will give a tenth to God. If he did, he would have given it directly to God via burnt offering. Abbie gave his to Melchi, the Israelite gave theirs to the tribe of Levi (as their inheritance and as commanded by God), who told you to give a tithe to pastors (self appointed reps)?

m.k.o2005:
Don't drop ur tithe in the tithe box and stare at it all the way as it's taken in for counting ! T

m.k.o2005:
Why didn't you give your offerings like Jacob ?

Because my (so called) OFFERING is not linked to Jacob's. i am not giving because Jacob gave. For people like you that tithe because you want to imitate Jacob (though we don't see/read Jacob tithing), i am asking why you are not giving directly to God. if Jacob engaged in tithing, he would have given it directly to God. I believe that's simple enough.

Please answer my question na. is the question so difficult?

m.k.o2005:
Since ur offering is now gor church maintenance, why don't you believe that ur tithe is also for church maintenance(paying of church bills,staff,crusade,conventions,missions,helping the less privileges and so on as the list can go on and on and on ?

Why do i need to separate my 'church' support into 'offering' and 'tithe'? if my total budget for the 'church' is 20% why separate into 10% for 'tithe' and 10% for 'offering'? especially when my 'offering' is same amount as the 'tithe' maybe there's something you are not telling me. Besides Abraham & Jacob you want to imitate did not tithe for 'church' maintenance'. Are you really sure you understand why you tithe?

m.k.o2005:
When you give offerings in the house of the Lord,it's not to man but to God.HE alone decides what HE does with ur offerings becos it's not urs but HIS.

Don't deceive yourself, it is the pastor/church administrator that decides what to do with the money usually without asking for God's opinion.

m.k.o2005:
Or do you think wen God want's to maintain his church he COMES down from heaven or throws money down from heaven for church maintenance ?

God will always maintain his church tithe or no tithe. absence of 'tithe' will/can not collapse the church. where is your faith?

Bidam: I am not an advocate of tithing as a command.I have said so many times in this forum that Christians ought to tithe by FAITH.

......driven from/by the heart. i.e. it should be personal. My position is that tithe is not preach-able. you cannot encourage people to give a certain %. by doing so you are trying to enforce a standard which shouldn't be.

Bidam: The first instance of tithing that we see occurs very early in the scriptures. Genesis 14:20 we see Abraham tithing the things he had been given to the high priest Melchizedek. This is verified in Hebrews 7:2 where we see Abraham gave a tenth of everything. This is the first example of giving a tenth of everything.You are of the argument that it was a one-off tithe and a war booty.

My argument goes beyond Abbie's tithe being one off and of war booty. It becomes a concern when some people attempt to link this with tithe of income today, storehouse/church bank account and devourer. what is the connection between the one time giving of a tenth of war booty and the giving of a 10% of salary/profit or sales from business/allowances (a.k.a. pocket money) to your local church or pastor?

Bidam: I was of the argument that you can appreciate God for what He has blessed you with in principle Heck!!

i don't see anything wrong in you appreciating God by giving 10% of your income to your pastor/church (if it comes from the heart). the concern is with the preaching of the tithe gospel.

Bidam: Thus, throughout the old law, the Hebrews were to keep the tithe.Now my argument here is that tithe was instituted by God and regulated under the law. Do you agree?

Okay.

Bidam: We see Jesus refer to the tithe in Matthew 23:23. The Pharisees would enforce the tithe upon the people and upon themselves, but had no regard for other elements of the law like justice, mercy, and faith. For this they were condemned. It is interesting that Jesus does not condemn them for tithing, but for not doing the other things of the law as well as tithing.My argument here is that the principle drawn from Jesus words is that we should concentrate on building godly character. GIVINGS should be the least of that character because it is the life-style of a believer.Do you also agree?

It depends on your definition of giving here.

Jesus did not condemn anybody for adhering to the law of moses. so there's no reason for him to condemn tithe. did any Jew tithe his/her salary? did any Jew tithe his allowance (a.k.a pocket money) if they did am very sure Jesus would have condemned it, but they didn't. So you understand why Jesus did not condemn tithe, there was nobody engaging the modern day version of tithing.

Bidam: But Hebrews 10:9-10 tells us that we are sanctified by the second covenant, not the first covenant, for the first covenant has been taken away. Do we have a command under the second covenant to tithe?
i don't think so neither do we have the command NOT TO TITHE. This is the question begging for answers which so far you guys have failed in convincing me that tithe should not be voluntary for Christians as the Holy Spirit instructs a believer.

we are not told to tithe or not to tithe. let it be as you are led (by the spirit o! not by your pastor, and not because you want to hammer because such motive takes away the love/sincerity in your giving).

You can see that we don't have to argue too much if you don't attempt to twist scriptures to justify actions that cannot be supported with scriptures

m.k.o2005:
Bein wealthy is not all about the gospel but you can't successfully carry out the great commission without God providing these cash to assist ur work with HIM in the ministry !

you are not tithing to support the gospel, stop deceiving yourself.

m.k.o2005:
What you should have asked me was who received Jacob's tithe after all Melchizedek was not bodily present when he(Jacob)vowed to tithe !
What God does with our tithe does not concern us ! All we need is just give it ! What did God do with Jacob's tithe if i may ask you ? What will God do with ur offerings,praises,worship and thanksgiving ? Stop asking questions as if you are an atheist-Just do for God like the little kids would do !

Lol! all i wanted was for you to tell me who Abbie tithed to since you say he disappeared after collecting the war boot.y. Here you are telling me i don't need to know what God does with our tithe. Anyways also answer my question on how you give the tithe directly to God.

m.k.o2005:
Are you new in Christianity ! Who do you give ur offerings to when you go to church ?

My 'offering' is for 'church' maintenance

m.k.o2005:
Do you burn it becos Abraham,Isaac and Jacob burnt theirs ? God help us. We give our tithe To God as we do with our offerings !

I asked for the lesson learnt and you are saying something else. If Jacob burnt his tithe, it means there was no intermediary. He gave directly to God. How do you give your tithe to God like Jacob?

Bidam: This is not the point the poster was making,everyone one knows it is God who receives tithes,

..and where did you see God receiving tithe. which tithe? you wan lie for God matter be this o!

Bidam: Even if it was once scripture gave a record[b],it shows in that passage it wasn't the first time he met Melchi[/b] because Abraham was not so surprised.Abraham even collected communion and ate it..Is that not surprising?

that one mean say Melchizedek na 'homeboy' na. i.e. he is not Jesus.

Bidam: I strongly believe Isaac must have practiced tithing even if scripture did not gave such record of event.

who received Isaac's tithe? maybe via burnt offering abi? meaning its not compulsory t give the tenth to the priest. BTW Isaac will have to go to war to tithe, remember?

Bidam: Another point that should be taken into consideration is that the names Abraham, Isaac and Jacob can be all found in the New Testament. All three men are mentioned by name multiple times in the New Testament. Abraham's name, for example, appears more than 170 times in the New Testament. Jacob's name is mentioned more than 20 times and Isaac's name more than 15 times.

So

Bidam: Most of you folks that are crying foul about 10%, what if God decide to ask you for 100% would you gladly give it? Abraham did give his 100% in form of Isaac whom he loved.Abeg i no talk am here say make una go kill una first born o..zikkyy i know you can twist this statement to mean another thing The point is David said i won't give God what will not cost me.Now the point is peeps like kun who thinks 10% is fraud that enriches the pastors,when 100% case is brought forward now..wetin you think say KUN go do? KUN will develop a STROKE

The issue is not the amount. whether 10, 20 or 100%, what am saying is that pastor do the right thing by preaching the truth. The truth is that Christians are under no obligation to give a tenth of their income/salary/profit/allowances (pocket money) e.t.c. setting threshold or %es for Christians is contrary to teachings we find in scriptures. If at this time you still think our concern the amount of money involved, then discussing with you is a waste of time.

Bidam: Now i don't have problem with peeps giving 20'30'40'50'60'70'80'90 and 100% according to how God prospered them.Let the benchmark of your giving be from 10% upwards and that shows you love God with the whole of your heart no be so?

Who decides the lower threshold for giving? who decided that it should be 10%? God or man? and who decides that the love for God starts at 10%?

Bidam: Love for God is not an emotion because no one has seen God.

we know yours is not an emotional thing. for you, love for God is strictly business.

Bidam: Love for God is how the word of God has dwell richly in your heart and how you are able to apply this word to do His will. Here is a scripture for all you guys to meditate on.......

forget the scripture you quoting, am not sure you even understand it. @bolded, love for you is about the money/how to make the money

Rhymeyjohn: Error and Heresy. Waiting for other anti tither to support this claim. Matt 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves .
KJV

..and who told you am a prophet? that's the 'koko' of your problem; inability to properly assess a situation or issue there is no way people like you will understand why they tithe i know for fact that your tithing is not because you love God

Image123: Go get the book, its a small book.

So i must pay before i know the hidden covenants of blessings? na wa o!

Image123: thought you initially said it is pastoral gospel that states that tithing works all the time.

My position remain the same. the pastoral promise is that tithe works all the time. but it appears to be working for pastors only. The reason why other tithers (& zikkyy) need to know about the hidden covenants of blessings.

Pastor Kun: What is this one talking about

I believe he is saying Nigerian government can do wonders with tithe just as the developed world is doing with taxation. i.e. with tithe, Nigeria can be like America.

Image123: Don't know where you got such gospel, hopefully it is not a figment of the antitither's imagination. Oyedepo for instance does.kt tell you that tithing works all the time. Read one little book he wrote "The hidden covenants of blessings". He says in EVERY chapter of the book that tithing alone is not enough.

so what's the missing ingredient? be kind enough to share na, be your brother's keeper. cos most tithers are not aware that tithing alone will not do the job. they tithe, sow seed, give offering yet not show.

Image123: i do not understand, your mother is the standard and example we are to follow or God's word is? You talk like one of the foolish unbelievers, the same 'point' can be made on giving or any of God's promises. One can pick some random fellow and say giving is not working or prayer is not working, or God is not working.

What are you saying? that tithing will not always yield the desired result? that God is selective in blessing tithers? is this not contrary to the pastoral gospel that tithing works all the time?

Mark Miwerds: That "sure Word of Prophecy" declares that God will bless in overabundance for tithing.

Does it not?

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

So, I ask again, where is this overabundance of blessing that my mother was supposed to get for tithing? The blessing of seeing pastors get richer while she continued to struggle in poverty month to month?

most tithers if not all started tithing with little or no understanding of what it means to tithe and i know my brother image123 is one of them (knowing he will never admit). God will bless those he wants to bless and in the manner he wish to bless, tithe or no tithe. That is not to say we should not live a life pleasing in God's sight.

Pastor Kun: Even if we are to show love to God, shouldn't we be left to determine how we want to express that love must it be 10% of our income going into an institution or a person's pocket

why you dey worry? nobody tithes because he/she loves God. It will be interesting to see a sermon on tithing out of love.

m.k.o2005:
Remember Jesus lineage wasn't expected to be king untill the prophesy came and it happened ! Same lineage (JUDAH)with Melchizedek !

Melchizedek is from the tribe of Judah?? oga, what exactly are you smoking?

m.k.o2005:
JESUS blessed HIS disciples the night to HIS death just like HE did to Abraham before HIS disappearance from the whole of the OT !

If Melchi disappeared after collecting war boot.y, who received Abbie's tithe if he continued to tithe?

BTW what happened to the tithe of war boot.y? Melchizedek Christ took to heaven abi? i can just picture the tithe of live horse and donkeys running around in heaven today.

m.k.o2005:
You are still asking who we should tithe to since Abraham's tithe was to Melchizedek and Not God ! And I ask you who did Jacob vowed to tithe to ? My father or some evil spirit out there ? It was God who blessed him that he tithed to !

Who received Jacob's tithe? if he tithed, it means he offered it directly to God as burnt offering. So what is the lesson learnt from that?

Bidam: Thank you sir! More rhema jare!!!

na only junk messages dey interest you

m.k.o2005:
Jesus Priesthood had to be likened to Melchizedek to help the Hebrew readers appreciate who this Jesus was and to see that His priesthood was GREATER than than that of Aaron,

This part i agree with.

m.k.o2005:
There are no Forever Priest anywhere but Jesus.

Okay.

m.k.o2005:
Hebrews 7:20-25 also made it clear once again that Jesus is Melchizedek

Maybe you are reading your pastor's version of the bible. there is nothing in verse 20-25 (below) that shows Jesus is Melchizedek.

20 And it was not without an oath! Others became priests without any oath, 21 but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him:
“The Lord has sworn
and will not change his mind:
‘You are a priest forever.’”
22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant. 23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

m.k.o2005:
[b]Melchizedek priesthood proceeds from Judah that is not suppose to collect tithe but HE did collected tithe !

How Melchizedek priesthood proceed from Judah when Judah was still in Abbie's loins when he tithed to Melchi? what exactly are you reading?

m.k.o2005:
Does this not show us all that Jesus collected tithe even as it is against the LAW?

The Hebrew writer did not say that Melchi is Jesus and he did not say that Jesus collected tithe. My brother, you should be reading the bible. Ignore the junk your pastor been feeding you.

m.k.o2005:
God want's us to get back to the period before the Law where Christ collected tithe as Melchizedek !

Na wa o! so this was God's ultimate plan for man interesting

m.k.o2005:
This scripture again shows us clearly that Jesus is Melchizedek in the sense that HE is a Priest FOREVER just like Melchizedek. If Melchizedek is a different person,then it will mean that HE is not the only one occupying that office of Priest Forever !

We know the priest function as a mediator, if Jesus is Melchi it means Jesus been priest even before Abraham. If that is true, of what use/relevance was the priesthood after the order of Aaron when Jesus was already priest?

m.k.o2005:
Paul explained again to the spiritually alert how we are to drop the Law type of tithing and cling unto the Pre-Law type of tithing which is the tithing by GRACE made available to us by the High priest in the order of Melchizedek !

Do you have scriptures for this or you had to lie because Paul is not around to defend himself?

m.k.o2005:
Abraham and his children weren't commanded to tithe by any Law becos there was no Law then.Neither were they commanded to tithe by any man for they tithed out of their LOVE for God to show appreciation for HIS goodness unto them !
So if you say LOVE,how come you can't tithe ? For to tithe is an act of Love and appreciation to God !

If only pastors would preach tithe as stated above. i.e. tithe out of love and appreciation to God and not because you want to solve life problems.

m.k.o2005:
The Melchizedekal order of tithing allowed the new testament Christians to tithe out of Love for God !

Na wa o! nothing we no ho hear/read which one be "Melchizedekal order of tithing" again?

m.k.o2005:
We are not under the Law but tithing was never stopped at any time !

Off course, people are free to give a tithe of whatever to their pastor. God's (holy) tithe stopped like 2,000 years ago.

Pastor Kun: Are you saying that the Levites were spiritually higher than everyone else just because they happen to come from the tribe of Levi?

their wives, children all received tithe. maybe they are all spiritually higher.

Bidam: To make the article clearer for you candour and others i decided to copy paste the part about the pharisees which the article wrote using scriptural verses not historical records as you erroneously implied.

Lol @ the red highlight before nko? as if we expect you to type it out

Elliotwiz1: what actually is your problem? Is it that you don't understand what i posted or you don't want to understand it? The bible gave us a lot of examples of people who paid tithe and they ALL paid to people who were spiritually higher!!! How else do i explain this?

Take some time to read Deuteronomy. The poor and widow also benefited from tithe, were they spiritually higher? tithe beneficiary (the people tithe was paid to) was not about spiritual 'highness'. you have to be 'high' on some wicked stuff to hold that line of reasoning

Bidam: You also should reason scriptures and not think with your anus,the pharisees were the ONLY SECT that believed there will be a Resurrection.

Are you now saying Jesus also 'believed' there will be a resurrection who dey resurrect btw?

cntabs: Is it wrong to support the work of God with at least 10% of my income?

My brother there is nothing wrong with you supporting the work of God with at least 10% of your income. what is wrong is you thinking that the support of 10% was done in compliance with the tithing law issued by Moses and referred to in Malachi 3.

alexleo: Did Jesus condemn tithe?

Did Jesus condemn the law of Moses? Did he really condemn burnt offerings? It is not about condemnation. you don't wait for Jesus to condemn before you know that Christians are not required to tithe.

alexleo: Did Jesus condemn tithe? Show me. Where he mentioned tithe did he say they should stop paying it? NO. If Jesus came to abolish tithe as you people claim, why didn't he condemn it outrightly as you people do?

Which tithe are you referring to? the tithe Jesus knew about was the one below:.........

Leviticus 27:30-32 (NIV)
30 “‘A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord. 31 Whoever would redeem any of their tithe must add a fifth of the value to it. 32 Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the Lord.

Numbers 18:24 (NIV)
24 Instead, I give to the Levites as their inheritance the tithes that the Israelites present as an offering to the Lord. That is why I said concerning them: ‘They will have no inheritance among the Israelites.’”

Condemnation of tithe was not required since nobody was giving 10% of their salary to any pastor at the time. You know very well that nobody here condemn the tithe of the land of Israel

alexleo: See mathew 23;23-

23 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Now if Jesus was against tithe why didn't he condemn it here outrightly. The last phrase "without neglecting the former" shouldn't have been there if he was against tithe.

No need for condemnation. The tithe in Mathew 23:23 was tithe according to the law. Jesus did not condemn the law so why condemn the tithe according to the law? But that is not saying the mosaic law is applicable to Christians today.

what we criticize is the gospel that:
1. tithe is 10% (regardless of the source; whether from prostitu.tion, robbery, 419, salary/wages, profit from business, sale of cocaine on the street to little children, pocket money e.t.c in fact any form of cash inflow.
2. Every 10% belongs to as defined in (1) above belongs to God
3. Paying the 10% defined in (1) above is equivalent to giving a tithe of everything from the land (of Israel)
4. Tithe as defined in (1) above can only be paid to the church/pastor where the tither receive spiritual nourishment (that is if he/she truly gets any).........not like i care, but false gospel is false gospel.
5. failure to pay tithe as defined in (1) above amounts to robbing God as statted in Malachi 3.
6. Payment of tithe as defined in (1) above results in God showering some (un-explainable) blessings on the tither/payer, and these blessings can only be obtained via the act of tithing.
plus plenty more

alexleo: Again since you people said that the law has been abolished, it means that justice, mercy and faithfulness has been abolished too as they are also mentioned by Jesus as important matters of the law.

....Matthew 23 was not about condemning laws, the focus was the crimes/behaviours of the scribes and Pharisees.

alexleo: Again since you people said that the law has been abolished, it means that justice, mercy and faithfulness has been abolished too as they are also mentioned by Jesus as important matters of the law.

Before you abolish something, it must first be instituted. the tithe that was abolished is the tithe according to the law. i.e. the tithe defined in Leviticus 27 and willed to the Levite in Numbers 18. The tithe of salary and wages or profit from your business was never required by God, so therefore it cannot be abolished by God/Christ. You can continue paying 'dashing' your pastor 10% of ya salary

Joagbaje, you did not mention that there is a hidden clause o!

Joagbaje: How wonderful the Lord is! He doesn’t withhold any good thing from us. The truth is, He’s given us everything. Ephesians 1:3 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with ALL spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ." He’s already blessed us. God isn’t going to give you anything more than He’s already given you in Christ..........

......but you can only access this blessing after paying your tithe, first fruit and sowing seeds

Your blessings already locked up in a vault (with your name on it) in heaven and the passwords to the vault reads t-i-t-h-e

Elliotwiz1: how does that relate to what i posted?? Did you read my message?? Everyone in the bible paid tithe to someone who is spiritually higher....

Tithe is not about being spiritually higher. we know the prophets (i.e. Elijah & co) did not receive tithe, the apostles did not, John the baptist did not receive tithe, Jesus did not receive tithe e.t.c.

Alwaystrue: If giving a tenth to the ministers can be such a challenge and can cause this level of quibbling, we then know the hearts of man. It is so easy to know a person with regards to how he acts when money matters are discussed.

mbulela: You actually think giving a tenth of your increase shows where your heart lies?
It simply shows that you are legalistic and your heart is not sold out on God.

Just in case you missed this as well

mailmalc: You can not deceive God, you are only deceiving yourselves with the help of your men of God and honestly, you are not even helping your men of God. Jesus Christ did not die for us to pay 10% before the heavens will be opened up for God to pour out his blessing upon us. The heavens are opened already, just love God and watch the blessing come down abundantly.

Bless.

i loved this bit so much i decided to quote here just in case some peeps missed it first time.