₦airaland Forum

It takes money alright, but not as much as the amount the MOGs are calling for. Having hundreds (or even thousands) of MOGs preaching to same crowd is un-neccessary and waste of fund if you ask me.

Thanks Viaro, I do appreciate your taking time out to address my concerns. I so much find your post comforting, cos I was expecting something different (something that will probably gladden the hearts of people like Jo or tithing-t ). So I will just my share my thoughts here instead.

True we can rely on principles, I believe in it and I agree with you on this. My concern is what principle underlying the levitical tithing and what is the practice today? We see that a large number of our MOGs miss it by thousands of miles. I still believe it’s difficult to preach and still achieve the expected result of people rendering a tenth of their income to the church. This cannot be achieved without resulting to rule setting (benchmark and thresholds) which to me is tends toward legalism as well. One thing we can do is to truly preach the principles which have to do with meeting the needs of the have-nots or less privileged (i.e. poor, widowed e.t.c). We can draw the attention of the congregation to see how this was achieved under Mosaic Law, but let their heart decide on how to apply it.

I am against anybody preaching/advocating for tithers to stop tithing. Education maybe (for the un-informed if any), but we still cannot make their decisions for them. My focus really has been directed at the way it is preached and not the act (by tithers). I believe this is the position of most ‘anti-tithers’ here. Let the MOGs preach the truth and you see members of the so called ‘anti-tithing’ camp seeking new line of work

viaro:
This is also why no anti-tither has the nerve to accuse Paul of basing new covenant CHRISTIAN doctrine on the Levitical system. NONE of these anti-tithers has ever had the nerve to condemn Paul for the same things that we see preachers do today. To keep arguing legalistically on tithes and yet shy away from making the same legalism on Paul's new covenant doctrines for Christians is simply double standards and not befitting for intelligent Christians.

There is a whole lot of difference between Paul's preaching and what we have today Viaro. I see legalism instead in the preching of tithe.

Hope you will ddress my concern Viaro  Sadly i am bout stepping out of the office hope to be back later in the day.

Viaro, I am not so keen on interfering in your discussion with gary. But I have been going through your posts which I find interesting. You talked about ‘principles’ which to a good extent, I agree with, but I would like to understand how the Levitical tithing practice is applied in the teaching of ‘giving a tenth of our income to the church’. Can you do this for me Viaro, it will be appreciated. Thanks

garyarnold:
Churches aren't teaching the festival tithe or the 3-year tithe. They are basing their teaching on the Levitical tithe, but changing it from crops and animals to income and instead of taking it to the Levites they teach you take it to the church.

One reason I took the position that tithing (the act of rendering a tenth of our income) should not even be preached today gary.

nuclearboy:
But here, you chaps say it is love. So please tell us - which is it? And by the way, if you argue against my position, please remember you are arguing against the position of the person who wrote half the new testament.

It’s beginning to look like fleecing of the flock via tithing practice is not going to be sustainable in the long term, due to growing awareness of the lies embedded in its teaching. This might just be change in strategy Nuclearboy. I won’t be surprise to see tithing being preached as a compulsory charitable contribution in the near future.

Image123:
You're asking what God is saying in Malachi 3 and Matthew 23, and I'm saying read it yourself. You do have a bible, don't you? Or you're not satisfied with the version you have? If that's the case, what version would you have quoted please?
How is that running? You'll rather that I read it for you than you read it for yourself? Then you come along with an 'extract' from gary and I refer you to an extract from viaro. What have I now done? Is there not a cause?

Well, I give up it’s not likely I get you to engage.

Image123:
I'm under grace mr(s). I've not committed a crime by directing you to viaro's posts seeing that they address your issues. You do need to read others' posts. Little wonder you've being getting little. This is a discussion forum, and you should learn to also listen to others, not just clicking reply to pollute your views. Viaro's post addressed your beloved 'extract', and your Bible addresses what God said in Malachi 3 and Matthew 23. I'm reading all the posts on this thread and learning. I'm reading D-Optimist, Kunle,Ogagim etc. It's a discussion forum for 'seun's' sake.

Believe me when I say this; I don’t miss anything. It’s also not compulsory I read Viaro’s posts. You don’t even understand my issues enough to conclude the answers can be found in Viaro’s post. Not when you refuse to engage. If you are learning, am not seeing evidence of that here.

Joagbaje:
Are you aware that Paul actually died and came back?

This is news to me Jo.

Image123:
Need I say more, Zikkyy and others? Please read viaro's input above. Both the commentary on gary's post which you quoted, and other post. I pray your hearts be not hardened.

Oga Image123, I don’t need to read Viaro’s post. Viaro’s post does not address your talk about following God’s words. Stop hiding behind Viaro Image123, why don’t you come out and defend your position.  Tell me how God’s word in Malachi applies to your tithing practice. Why you dey fear na? It possible I might end up agreeing with you if you make sense.

Image123:
Oh tell me you have a bible zikkyy. Even mazaje has one, and it's subsidised for you to afford one.

Na wa for you. Why you dey run na? Anyway i'll leave you with extract from gary's post i find useful. Think about it.

garyarnold:
It doesn't matter who God was speaking to in Malachi - it was NOT the Christian Church.

Image123:
We should learn to know when God is speaking e.g Malachi 3 and Matthew 23v23.

and what is God telling us in Malachi 3 and Mathew 23v23?

[quote author=petres_007 link=topic=466093.msg6250482#msg6250482 date=1277055199]1st Corinthians 13 and verse 8 said “charity never faileth”. [I’ll] Like you to underline the word “never”. That means it is failure proof. It guarantees victory. It guarantees success. It guarantees prosperity. It guarantees peace and tranquility. It guarantees the endless flow of signs and wonders. Charity or Love never faileth. It will always deliver. It will always deliver. You can count on the efficacy of this virtue. Any day, anytime and anywhere. The love of God. Charity never faileth.[/quote]I thought the act of tithing was supposed to have taken care of the bit (highlighted above) or are you saying tithe is a charitable contribution.

nuclearboy:
^^^ God forbid but if truly it were possible, who do you think it'll be on NL?

Ha. I am keeping that close to my chest for now Am learning from e1234 or what was his name again

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6256640#msg6256640 date=1277138845]@ Nuclearboy

So you are telling me that you can kill now after you had given your life to Christ and without repenting and turning away from it, you'll be forgiven. Absolutely NO.

Jesus didn't come to confuse us. NOTE THAT,

Definitely if you kill and you don't repent over it if you die now you'll roast in HELL. Agreed.[/quote]@nuclearboy, if you do decide to carry out such act (as highlighted above), I can guess with 100% accuracy who the victim will be 

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6256718#msg6256718 date=1277139582]@ Zikkyy

Who made you a judge over them. Judge not.[/quote]Am sure if rev. kings atrocities had gone un-noticed you would made similar comment on his behalf, after all he is/was an anointed MOG.

garyarnold:
The priests had ROBBED God. The Word doesn't say anyone WITHHELD paying or didn't pay the Tithe. How do you rob someone? BY STEALING from them, and the priests STOLE the Levites portion of the tithe at the Temple per Nehemiah 13.

Same situation we find ourselves with modern day tithing practice gary, the pastors hold on to the full tithe. The church workers never get to have their share of 90%.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6256440#msg6256440 date=1277137238]So wouldn't we rather do what ever we believe in and think is right and stop accusing MOGs and fellow worshipers that do pay.[/quote]I don’t understand why you should be bothered about the bit highlighted above. The MOGs can defend themselves.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6255771#msg6255771 date=1277131755]@ Aletheia

I wonder what would be a tenth increase in whatsoever passeth under the rod??

Ok I guess you are against tithing or are you against cash tithing?[/quote]

Aletheia pele  this guy is ready to drive you insane if you allow him.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6255274#msg6255274 date=1277127590]So you are against tithing as a percentage,[/quote]Na wa for you you just could not wait for my response to your question. you answered the question yourself. It will be difficult for us to communicate this way.

Oga D-optimist, i am not against tithing as a percentage.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6254830#msg6254830 date=1277123459]@ Zikkyy

Please so that I may not be wrong in my post cos I've really not gone through your post earlier, are you 'for' or 'against' this topic or on the fence.

Thanks.[/quote]What topic? To answer your question, i also need to be sure you understand the topic being dicussed here.

No, i dont sit on the fence.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6254740#msg6254740 date=1277122387]how can you quantify a tenth in agricultural produce,[/quote]You know this is not a problem except you are not just ready to try. I am sure there is a standard of measurement for every item you purchase in the market. abi i lie?

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6254740#msg6254740 date=1277122387]I also want to believe that 'they' (people of the old) offered mint and come as tithe because that was the major activity by then. Think about it,isn't it more durable and easy to quantify this items into what you can go with.[/quote]You had cash in use at the time. There was specific instruction for buy-back at the time, in which case, your tithe is no longer a tenth (10%), but 12.5%. I hope now you use cash you render 12.5%.

Image123:
What are the 'facts'? Are we no more christians because we do not believe in tithes? Why are tithephobics so dishonest, rude and false accusing?
The other one says 'you show a lack of knowledge on this topic'. I guess, to you knowledge is disagreement to tithe OR some quotes from the bible, that seems to support your talk.
How do I start with you, your problems/errors are so many. Firstly, I'll say it's sheer ignorance OR worse still devil's doctrine to claim that a part of scriptures is not profitable for believers, using whatever base.
You've said the whole Malachi is addressed to the priests(or probably you meant to say the levites). How true is this assertion?
Malachi 1v1 The burden of the word of the Lord to Israel by Malachi.
I believe the address is clear, the author is clear, the vessel/messenger is clear. I do pray you learn. Many tithephobics will never respond to issues, just skip to some other thread or forum to repeat their 'knowledge'. Hope you're peculiar?

Your post as always does not make sense. If you have been asking questions, you would definitely have gotten answers and there would have been no need for the post above. Like i said before, you would rather adopt the approach of making accusations instead trying to understand the position of the other person. You guys do it a lot, maybe its because you know are living a lie.

@garyarnold, e36991 is just being mischievous, he has nothing to contribute here.

e36991:
My cards shielded & guarded closely to my chest . . .

If you are interested, I can help nail it to your chest permanently. I can do that for you at no cost. To make sure nobody ever get to see them.

ukotmi:

I dialed the number and a pre-recoreded female voice answered. The number is like of the customer care in the banks, telecom and other places. it asked me to press specific numbers to answers to questions already sent to Ps Chris. When I pressed one of the numbers, Ps Chris voice came on answering the questions already sent to him, that is, recorded voice.

If I will not be able to ask my own questions, why call and listen to pre-program questions and answers from on a machine. What’s the use calling if am only going to listen to questions that chris himself came up with and provided answers to. I’ll rather ask CEC members here on NL at no cost, they are running on similar software/application (with the machine). The only problem I know is they might not be able to provide answers outside the pre-programed questions.

You know Tonye-t is a professional twister of the word, as a result his image/information gathering and processing program is currently set at ‘autoselect’. i.e. His brain gathers and processes only the information that will serve his purpose. So you can’t really blame the man.

Tonye-t never saw this comment by Nuclearboy

nuclearboy:
I'll fight for him here.

Instead find below the twisted version of Nuclearboy's comment as captured and processed by Tonye-t information gathering program 

nuclearboy:
I'll fight for him here.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6237745#msg6237745 date=1276859266]@ other anti-tithe payers,

If you guys are really 'christians' I mean 'if you are a church goer' even if you are not a born again christian and you don't love money rather love God, what is so difficult for you to pay just 10% of your income(earnings) to the church where you worship? What is 10% that you can't just let go if the insist on you paying, which I believe no one will ever tell you to pay it with a gun to your head. On the other hand, please if you don't believe in 'doctrines', if we should call it so, please leave that church so that you won't be classify as being disobedient which you know is a sin.[/quote]The problem I have with you guys is that you don’t read posts. When you manage to, you have problem processing the information. Your post above does not reflect the true position of the people you are directing your post at. After going through eleven pages, I expect you to be more accurate in your assessment. Or have you been relying on hearsay? Maybe the only post you read is that of Image123. Do yourself a favor and read through one more time.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6237745#msg6237745 date=1276859266]When Jesus talked of offering willingly from your heart, it was supposed to be the general offerings they get from your churches but for the 10% of your income, he demand it as he demands your time and love for him.[/quote]So the 10%of my income is by force abi? Okay na.

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6237745#msg6237745 date=1276859266]I also think for those who said you should listen to your heart, it's not the best idea. God speaks through his word and sometimes openly to your hears and mind but most of our hearts have been so hardened that we would never listen to our heart when it speaks, or we rather be fast to hearken to the wickedness of our heart. Follow the word, Go to a Believing church not just the one you like because what you want to hear is being preached there.[/quote]What are you saying here?

[quote author=D-optimist link=topic=459705.msg6237745#msg6237745 date=1276859266]GO OUT THERE AND CONTRIBUTE YOUR QUOTA, DO YOUR VERY BEST, MAKE SURE WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN DOES NOT TAKE YOU TO DAMNATION. IN ALL YOU DO MAKE YOU ARE DIRECTED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT,[/quote]Nice. I like this part   If only you will listen to yourself  

Image123:
Zikky
You're making baseless accusations. Being a tithephobic isn't an excuse for dishonesty, being a sinner is.
Making modifications to my posts is normal for you. At least, you're fond of doing it to God's Word, removing and adding as you please.

Zikkyy is dishonest abi? Let take another look at the evidence

Enigma initial post

Enigma:
^^^ This is a fantastic encapsulation of why the agitation to challenge the teaching on "tithing". The fact of the matter is that "tithe" teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is an extremely wicked anti-Christian doctrine.

Your response

Image123:
See what you've said among others. "Tithe is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

My correction

Image123:
See what you've said among others. "Tithe teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

Now between zikkyy and Image123, who is truly dishonest? It’s quite obvious to readers you re the one displaying adding and removing skills here. This is exactly what I find you doing to God’s word; you take the bible twist the content and come up with your own version, Zikkyy comes along to correct you, and you say he is dishonest. Imagine that   You should be ashamed of yourself image123  

Mr Image123, you are in the habit of coming here to run commentaries. Why are you afraid of confrontation? Is it because you feel your line of argument is probably too weak to be taken seriously? The few attempts you made always result in you making for the nearest exit with your tail between your legs.

Image123:
Did you also notice that I said that I'll rather take God's Words? Of course not! Your trade is to pick and choose, and make mountains out of molehills.

People ignored this bit cos your posts so far do not provide evidence you’ve been following God’s words.

Image123:
See what you've said among others. "Tithe teaching/preaching, particularly as obligatory, is extremely wicked antichristian doctrine, the most damning issue in christianity(you're a joke to The body of Christ to think such), a doctrine from the pits of hell".

I made some slight modifications to your post, hope you don’t mind

Enigma:
Look at someone saying you should not follow your heart in your giving!

Maybe the man does not have a heart.

mabell:
Hello there!
have you being trying to reach pastor chris to ask questions but to no avail?
well here's a great opportunity for you
just call 234(1) 2554040
i'll be expecting your feedback

What’s the guarantee the person at the other end is actually pastor chris and not Joagbaje

nuclearboy:
"obedience" to "Commandments", mind you! And of course, an "advantage". Plus of course, the "way to get called BLESSED (most worthy intentions for a believer today)".

Of course, the final recourse is to the "almighty pastors/elders". Who of course, passed on the holy doctrines of xmas and easter!  As opposed to us, armed robbers who hate God and are making Him go hungry (aww, see how lean God has become due to nuclearboy starving Him  ).

Nuclearboy, you know why most tithing boys and girls think this way na. It’s sad but it’s a source of hope for most people, maybe you shouldn’t deprive them of that. There not much you can do about it anyway. You can educate, but you can’t force people to decide what to believe. It’s their call. If you really want to make that change, take it out on the people that preach it.