₦airaland Forum

jesusjnr:
So if that be the case and what defines atheism for you, then going by that definition, the end of atheism is nigh.

For if these atheists witness the extent of works that Moses had done in the land of Egypt non of them would remain atheist, because thru the works God would have proven that He indeed exists.

So that is what is going to take place, and atheism would be completely extinguished.

And all that could be left are pagans, sinners, etc. who continue in their rebellious ways regardless but never atheists because the proof of God's would have destroyed it.

As I mentioned, that would depend on your definition of atheism. I, for instance, have a wonderful surgeon who does not believe or worship God but stopped me from dying and cured me of being lame. He'd refer to himself as an atheist, but the Power of God is surely within him, and I'd go as far as to claim all the knowledge that allows him to effectively do his job is 'Jesus', and if he did not have 'Jesus' in his life he would not even be a surgeon. He sure is doing some of what Jesus said even moreso would we do.

Akin1212:
Simple questions require simple answers. Logical questions require logical answers. If you're going to do this, don't clog this thread with bible verses or verses from the quran. This logic is very straightforward.

Interesting question you pose here, Akin, I'll try to answer them one at a time. But first, it would seem that you are asking one to take this narrative literally which I'm afraid is way above my payscale! For starts, it's not history so taking it literally is, in my opinion, an error.

The Bible is one of the earliest scientific theories put forward as knowledge of what is. It was written at a time when only so much was known, and treating it the way you appear to be treating it is like going through the works of Darwin and Newton and claiming they knew everything pertaining to the subject they wrote about, when the truth is, they really only knew so little, but quite a lot for their time. So, with that said, and with expectations of criticism

Akin1212:
How were they supposed to process that death or disobedience were bad things and make the decision on something they had no knowledge of?

Early humans have always attempted to explain death and bad things, but you might understand how difficult it might have been for them considering how little they actually know. In the days of Aphrodite, less than 2500 years ago for instance, a mare (horse) had to lift up both it's hindlegs and a woman would get pregnant, was a belief resulting in the reverence of horses. Even in the Orolu Kingdom it is today believed amongst some that a male cat has to literally jump over a female cat for for it to get pregnant, and despite showing them cats copulating on youtube.

The text you refer to is teaching that disobedience results in death instead of your placing of the cart before the horses. Considering one were subject to those who knew better at the time you might understand how it might work. Someone after all would always lord it over those who know much less.

That's not all it teaches though, that narrative being one of the most explored as far as the Bible is concerned.

Akin1212:
How were Adam and Eve supposed to know satan

Prior to what is narrated in the story, they couldn't know 'satan' (or error) since they were ignorant.

Akin1212:
Where did the concept of the original sin come from?

It arose as a recognition of the ignorance of the human race. What is referred to as "original sin" is just that, ignorance.

Akin1212:
Did they commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil?

Funny enough, the answer to this is yes, they did "commit the sin before having the knowledge of good and evil" since they hadn't eaten of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil which would allow them to know good and evil.

I guess to get the gist of my meanings here, you'd have to understand what early human being was prior to God breathing into mud. Some knowledge of evolution might help.

paxonel:
You mean, there are people who can see beyond this physical existence?
How did they come to this ultimate conclusion that God do not exist or there are no spirit God?

This is one of those things that Christians do that I find comical, they bait atheists, and I wonder why. The atheist says they see no God or spirits but you want them to say the things they don't see and have no evidence for, exists. Why, pax? Can the blind witness to those who see? Besides, does anyone "see" beyond the physical?

paxonel:
How did theists come to the conclusion that a spirit God exist?
It's simple!
They saw it in their holy books and believe that he exist.

You missed out 'going to the Jesustician for Jesusglasses', which the atheist hasn't gone and got.

paxonel:
Do atheists have some kind of record or book to depend on, in order to acertain their position that there is no spirit God?

Actually, many. Too many to list. The inability of the atheist to see God or spirits is confirm by what they have read and the fact that Christians take their blindness seriously thereby affirming what they can't see. Or would you rather they lie that God and spirits they haven't seen exists?

paxonel:
Its so frustrating that there is no such record among atheists,they depend on their instinct which is not reliable.

Atheist do not depend on instinct, paxonel You hear them yelling, "show me the evidence for your God!" Atheists depend on evidence of their senses and will always present it when asked for it, I can vouch for that.

paxonel:
And you know how important a record of what has happened in the past is necessary to sustain an idea or belief.

Who's record and for whom?

By the way everyone, something needs to be done about history not being taught in Nigerian schools!

I got tired of the rest!

jesusjnr:
Do you believe there is someone called Satan?

And, yes. As another word for ignorance.

jesusjnr:
OK. So now this difference in our belief is established.

But may I ask if so, who appeared to Jesus to tempt him?

Temptation, jesus, "appeared to Jesus to tempt him", just as temptation 'appears' to tempt everyone of us everyday. And they are standard temptations that we all go through - the temptation to place our own needs before God's, the temptation to prove God exists by silly means, and the temptation to be greedy. Jesus' responses are very informative.

jesusjnr:
Is atheism really the belief that God does not exist? Not necessarily so, for an atheist actually believes that a god exists, but that, that god is the atheist himself. Hence the atheist feels he is not supposed to submit himself or be a subject to any other god or authority!subject!

I gave this thread a swerve when you created it though it irritated me at the time. I figured you'd missed where we'd attempted to iron out the definition of atheism but got nowhere. To begin with, it is not the case that atheists believe a god exists and just refuse to worship it, atheists have no belief whatsoever that any gods exist so worshipping it is mute. But, what I'd consider a greater error is the giving credit due to Christianity to atheism.

I do not agree that God requires anyone "to submit or be a subject to any other god or authority!" Jesus did not submit to any god or authority, so why should those who follow his will submit to any god or authority? And did he not say "the Kingdom of God is within you"?

I put it to you that Jesus has given one the authority to become as gods and atheists have missed a trick if it is true that they believe that they are the gods. Or is it not exactly the power of God within one that makes one godlike?

The Children of God do not have to submit to anything, is my controversial point here since the Spirit of God is within and empowering them. I would not be surprised if there are levels though.

Sorry I left out the rest, though read.

jesusjnr:
Do you believe there is someone called Satan?

Someone? No! There are people who do evil things.

jesusjnr:
Am I getting you here?

Do you think i was talking about satanists or atheists in that specific Instance?

Or you seem not to agree with me that there were satanists here as well?

Depends on your definition of "satanists", I guess. There are some who think those who don't say "Lord! Lord!" are the satanists. But I do think scripture disagrees with this belief since it clearly states who would need a dentist to heal their teeth gnashing. And to be honest, I disagree with the "satanists" idea, completely, as it's just the excuse I'd need to claim some are going to hell, which, if I'm not incorrect is a forest in my eye sort of statement. Besides, once I call someone a satanist, the next step is to assume they are not my neighbours and I need not love them, which just makes me the satanist, really.

jesusjnr:
For first, it was the satanists who appeared to have long held the religious section of nairaland to ransom, being made to scamper for safety not knowing what hit them, shortly after my arrival.

I'm afraid you are in error in thinking atheists are satanists who would one day be eradicated. The evidence does not agree that atheists are satanists, and two conversions do not exactly mean, eradicated. If it did, then the numerous conversions to atheism would be a herald for the death of religion.

First, the satanists. There are at least two instances where Christ said 'atheist' and pagans, in fact, would enter the KoG. The first is the Samaritan (though, more a pagan than an atheist), for "doing his will". And the second is the tax-collector, for the same reason. And there are many in the old testament whom God found favour in despite not being God worshippers. The requirements for entering the Kingdom of God do not depend on what one chooses to believe in ones head is my point, but what one does as clearly stated in Psalm 15. It is those who do these things that would not be shaken. Besides, has one found the fruits of the spirit lacking in some believers, but found it in some atheists? God does not do petty, is my opinion.

Atheism will never be eradicated because God created them too, and I can't say they do not serve a purpose. But I guess this goes down to the definition of the word 'atheism' which refers to those who do not worship the gods of Athens, or, the established and recognised gods in the way that they are generally worshipped. You might understand this by noting the response you got when you arrived with what I would call your "atheistic view" of God, at least as far as the prevalent view on here goes. And no, jesus, you were not the first. Many had promoted this view long before you arrived, and I hinted at it when I insisted in calling you by your moniker.

Atheism will continue to thrive as long as those who are theists think righteousness comes only through belief I am afraid, since, to the rational minded, believing means to discard everything that one knows to be for mere beliefs that lack a solid foundation. And for that foundation, we have a long way to go! Especially if we are not aware of the sin of "thank you Lord that I am not like those atheists over there", or hubris, as it is rightly called.

MrPresident1:
The work I am talking about is not physical work. You and I are not saying the same thing.

The work I am talking about is goodness and empathy and kindness, not hard labour.

And "goodness and empathy and kindness", is not "hard labour", and "physical work"?

To me, even understanding the meaning of "goodness and empathy and kindness", and let me add, "goodness, virtue, virtuousness, uprightness, decency, integrity, worthiness, rectitude, probity, morality, ethicalness, high-mindedness, justice, honesty, honour, honourableness, innocence, blamelessness, guiltlessness, irreproachability, sinlessness, saintliness, purity, nobility, noble-mindedness, piety, piousness", is hard physical work and labour that takes many many years. But hey, that's me I guess. Some things come easy to some. A grace thing, I suppose. But to some, God has to so love the world to have the lessons that teach these things written in the blood of his Son so that people like me can 2000 years later have something to guide me along the way to a semblance of righteousness (like 30% of it, if I work really hard).

MrPresident1:
Europe did not develop by hard labour for your information, Europe developed because God gave them the permission, Europe started developing after the dark ages, and during those dark ages Blackman ruled the world. Europeans during the dark ages were the real shitholers, you can read up on the dark ages. And Europe/America's time is over, their ascension started in the Renaissance and ended at the last trump. Now Christ must return and the world must return to default settings, the anomaly of white rule has ended.

I wonder which of us knows not much about the development of Europe! Europe did not "start developing after the dark ages". The “Dark Ages”, between 500 AD and 1500 AD, came after the immense progress that had already been made in Europe up to 500AD, and those 1000 odd years were a period of theocracy which ended with the Renaissance. Some would in fact claim that it was religious arrogance that brought on the so called " Dark Ages". If you check, you would find that despite it being a theocratic ruled period, love was missing. The builders can be building in vain regardless of how much they slave if they do not incorporate that which is wise and Godly in what they do.

MrPresident1:
More work as you are insinuating here for my people, means more exertion, and more slavery, I do not fail to see through your sleight and shenanigans. When they wake up, you will be well and adequately recompensed. Until then, you and others like you may continue to roam wild.

Unfortunately, or rather, fortunately, you are correct, though I am more than insinuating the "more exertion" and not the "slavery" bit, and hopefully by your "people", you mean Nigerians.

Nigerians, whatever work we have done to date has not yet provided us with the sort of environment that we desire. And it is obvious that some nations have developed to states that we admire. Op did say "your righteousness is your good works", and I am suggesting that all those things that we desire about those other nations that have allowed them to have an average life expectancy of over 70 years while ours in Nigeria is in the low 50s came about through their hard work, and a lot of ours! Unless you'd like to argue that "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth", is not God commanding you to work, really hard!

We, are building a people of power, and it takes a lot of work, considering what is being dealt with. And no, not as slaves since we work for our own benefit.

MrPresident1:
You hear people saying, our works of righteousness cannot save us, and we do not need to be righteous, we do not need works but grace covers us blah blah blah and many wrong things based on the mis-understanding of Isaiah 64:6.

I do often wonder how people claim they are saved by grace and not by their works as if everything Jesus preached was not about work. Is grace going to lift up ones cross and bear it, or fix the roads, schools and hospitals and prolong life here on earth, which is a clear sign that eternal life is being approached?

When we look at nations in Europe, we see how developed they are. All that development came through work, and the only grace about it is that they studied (work) and learnt (more work) about the world and how to improve it while those who are relying on grace are receding back into the 1800s!

Thanks for this President!

Goldenventures:
@budaatum

There is a practice in Christian mysticism that involves using the 31 chapters of the book of proverbs, one for each day. Is it what you are hinting to?

Could be. The idea is to meditate on a chapter a day so as to understand it.

In fact, if someone claimed everything in the Bible is there to cloak the Book of Proverbs, I wouldn't argue. Even if they claimed God means Wisdom, I still wouldn't! It sure is obvious that Christ preached 'wisdom'.

I'm going to in fact try to figure out the relationship between the KoG and Wisdom. My start point would be "Seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all other things will follow" and 1 Kings 3.

Proverbs 11 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Contrast the Upright and the Wicked
11 A false balance and dishonest business practices are extremely offensive to the Lord,
But an accurate scale is His delight.
2
When pride comes [boiling up with an arrogant attitude of self-importance], then come dishonor and shame,
But with the humble [the teachable who have been chiseled by trial and who have learned to walk humbly with God] there is wisdom and soundness of mind.
3
The integrity and moral courage of the upright will guide them,
But the crookedness of the treacherous will destroy them.
4
Riches will not provide security in the day of wrath and judgment,
But righteousness rescues from death.
5
The righteousness of the blameless will smooth their way and keep it straight,
But the wicked will fall by his own wickedness.
6
The righteousness of the upright will rescue them,
But the treacherous will be caught by their own greed.
7
When the wicked man dies, his expectation will perish;
And the hope of [godless] strong men perishes.
8
[a]The righteous is rescued from trouble,
And the wicked takes his place.
9
With his mouth the godless man destroys his neighbor,
But through knowledge and discernment the righteous will be rescued.
10
When it goes well for the righteous, the city rejoices,
And when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy.
11
By the blessing [of the influence] of the upright the city is exalted,
But by the mouth of the wicked it is torn down.
12
He who despises his neighbor lacks sense,
But a man of understanding keeps silent.
13
He who goes about as a gossip reveals secrets,
But he who is trustworthy and faithful keeps a matter hidden.
14
Where there is no [wise, intelligent] guidance, the people fall [and go off course like a ship without a helm],
But in the abundance of [wise and godly] counselors there is victory.
15
He who puts up security and guarantees a debt for an outsider will surely suffer [for his foolishness],
But he who hates (declines) being a guarantor is secure [from its penalties].
16
A gracious and good woman attains honor,
And ruthless men attain riches [but not respect].
17
The merciful and generous man benefits his soul [for his behavior returns to bless him],
But the cruel and callous man does himself harm.
18
The wicked man earns deceptive wages,
But he who sows righteousness and lives his life with integrity will have a true reward [that is both permanent and satisfying].
19
He who is steadfast in righteousness attains life,
But he who pursues evil attains his own death.
20
The perverse in heart are repulsive and shamefully vile to the Lord,
But those who are blameless and above reproach in their walk are His delight!
21
Assuredly, the evil man will not go unpunished,
But the descendants of the righteous will be freed.
22
As a ring of gold in a swine’s snout,
So is a beautiful woman who is without discretion [her lack of character mocks her beauty].
23
The desire of the righteous brings only good,
But the expectation of the wicked brings wrath.
24
There is the one who [generously] scatters [abroad], and yet increases all the more;
And there is the one who withholds what is justly due, but it results only in want and poverty.
25
The generous man [is a source of blessing and] shall be prosperous and enriched,
And he who waters will himself be watered [reaping the generosity he has sown].
26
The people curse him who holds back grain [when the public needs it],
But a blessing [from God and man] is upon the head of him who sells it.
27
He who diligently seeks good seeks favor and grace,
But he who seeks evil, evil will come to him.
28
He who leans on and trusts in and is confident in his riches will fall,
But the righteous [who trust in God’s provision] will flourish like a green leaf.
29
He who troubles (mismanages) his own house will inherit the wind (nothing),
And the foolish will be a servant to the wise-hearted.
30
The fruit of the [consistently] righteous is a tree of life,
And he who is wise captures and wins souls [for God—he gathers them for eternity].
31
If the righteous will be rewarded on the earth [with godly blessings],
How much more [will] the wicked and the sinner [be repaid with punishment]!

budaatum:
This is a secret, so don't tell anyone please. But if I had a god, this is one thread where I will scream it from the mountaintop, if I were that way inclined, and if anyone questioned me about my god, I will tell them to go suck on something for I do not have to justify my god to anyone!

But that shouldn't preclude me from saying what god is to me, so, here goes.

God fills gaps. Sorry theists, but it's a fact. When many try to describe what God is, you would find a gap of ignorance being filled. Take the creation of the universe for instance. Rather than claim, "I don't know how the universe was created", a religious person would claim God done it, but if they were honest, they would admit that they believe God done it, thereby filling a gap in their ignorance. The truth is, no one knows how the universe came into existence billions of years ago, but since it seems to work so well, it is logical to assume something was behind the existence of the universe, hence, God fills the gap.

A reading of the Christian scripture clearly states that no one has ever seen God. Jesus never showed anyone any God either, not even the Kingdom of God did he show. And as for Jesus being God, I'm afraid I do not get that from my Bible. To me, Jesus was the embodiment of God, and by that I mean he so followed what was taught in the God books of his day and time that he was as close to God as many got. He even went as far as saving many by teaching them better ways to exist and relate to one another, and in my opinion, worshipping him is meaningless if by worship, "do my will" is not meant. The clue for this is in his "even moreso than I have done shall you do", which includes even raising the dead and living everlastingly, which, considering people died before their 40^th birthday in his day, our comfortable 70 years more than qualifies. As to evidence of raising the dead, go to a hospital and you might get my gist. Doctors save people's lives everyday through the knowledge that they have acquired.

To claim God is anything in particular is tantamount to creating an image, which we humans are very fond of. When we ask someone what their religion is, we are asking so we know what image of them we may hold in our heads. However, humans are not simple images as you may be able to tell by considering the little we know of even those who are very close to us. Yet, we can't help with our image making it would seem, for making images we must, with recognition that since our knowledge of God is limited and a gap filler, to claim God is any one thing in particular, is limiting God to our limited knowledge of God, when in truth, God is way much more than we conceive with our limited minds.

So, with that in mind, I am offering 951 Names and Titles of God as what God may be conceived to be, along with a pdf download of One Hundred Names for God according to Katrina's Dream and Names of God in Islam. You may not agree with them all, but I'm certain you'd find a few that fit any conception of God that you might have ever conceived.

Do note though that God is in no way limited to all or any of these 'whats' that God is listed as being! In truth, we are figuring out daily what God is, and increasing in knowledge everyday. And to claim to know what God actually is, is just as foolish as saying, there is no God, in my opinion. For no one has truly seen God (unless you have, of course).

As to my screaming it from the mountaintop if I were that way inclined, I'm waiting to know what to scream since I am that way inclined.

Proverbs 10 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Contrast of the Righteous and the Wicked
10 The proverbs of Solomon:

A wise son makes a father glad,
But a foolish [stubborn] son [who refuses to learn] is a grief to his mother.
2
Treasures of wickedness and ill-gotten gains do not profit,
But righteousness and moral integrity in daily life rescues from death.
3
The Lord will not allow the [a]righteous to hunger [God will meet all his needs],
But He will reject and cast away the craving of the wicked.
4
Poor is he who works with a negligent and idle hand,
But the hand of the diligent makes him rich.
5
He who gathers during summer and takes advantage of his opportunities is a son who acts wisely,
But he who sleeps during harvest and ignores the moment of opportunity is a son who acts shamefully.
6
Blessings are on the head of the righteous [the upright, those in right standing with God],
But the mouth of the wicked conceals violence.
7
The [b]memory of the righteous [person] is a [source of] blessing,
But the name of the wicked will [be forgotten and] rot [like a corpse].
8
The wise in heart [are willing to learn so they] will accept and obey commands (instruction),
But the babbling fool [who is arrogant and thinks himself wise] will come to ruin.
9
He who walks in integrity and with moral character walks securely,
But he who takes a crooked way will be discovered and punished.
10
He who [maliciously] winks the eye [of evil intent] causes trouble;
And the babbling fool [who is arrogant and thinks himself wise] will come to ruin.
11
The mouth of the righteous is a fountain of life and his words of wisdom are a source of blessing,
But the mouth of the wicked conceals violence and evil.
12
Hatred stirs up strife,
But love covers and overwhelms all transgressions [forgiving and overlooking another’s faults].
13
On the lips of the discerning, [skillful and godly] wisdom is found,
But discipline and the rod are for the back of the one who is without common sense and understanding.
14
Wise men store up and treasure knowledge [in mind and heart],
But with the mouth of the foolish, ruin is at hand.
15
The rich man’s wealth is his fortress;
The ruin of the poor is their poverty.
16
The wages of the righteous [the upright, those in right standing with God] is [a worthwhile, meaningful] life,
The income of the wicked, punishment.
17
He who learns from instruction and correction is on the [right] path of life [and for others his example is a path toward wisdom and blessing],
But he who ignores and refuses correction goes off course [and for others his example is a path toward sin and ruin].
18
He who hides hatred has lying lips,
And he who spreads slander is a fool.
19
When there are many words, transgression and offense are unavoidable,
But he who controls his lips and keeps thoughtful silence is wise.
20
The tongue of the righteous is like precious silver (greatly valued);
The heart of the wicked is worth little.
21
The lips of the righteous feed and guide many,
But fools [who reject God and His wisdom] die for lack of understanding.
22
The blessing of the Lord brings [true] riches,
And He adds no sorrow to it [for it comes as a blessing from God].
23
Engaging in evil is like sport to the fool [who refuses wisdom and chases sin],
But to a man of understanding [skillful and godly] wisdom brings joy.
24
What the wicked fears will come upon him,
But the desire of the righteous [for the blessings of God] will be granted.
25
When the whirlwind passes, the wicked is no more,
But the righteous has an everlasting foundation.
26
Like vinegar to the teeth and smoke to the eyes,
So is the lazy one to those who send him to work.
27
The [reverent] fear of the Lord [worshiping, obeying, serving, and trusting Him with awe-filled respect] prolongs one’s life,
But the years of the wicked will be shortened.
28
The hope of the righteous [those of honorable character and integrity] is joy,
But the expectation of the wicked [those who oppose God and ignore His wisdom] comes to nothing.
29
The way of the Lord is a stronghold to the upright,
But it is ruin to those who do evil.
30
The [consistently] righteous will never be shaken,
But the wicked will not inhabit the earth.
31
The mouth of the righteous flows with [skillful and godly] wisdom,
But the perverted tongue will be cut out.
32
The lips of the righteous know (speak) what is acceptable,
But the mouth of the wicked knows (speaks) what is perverted (twisted).

How & When The Idea of Eternal Torment Invaded Church Doctrine

Always post links, op, so people can find their way to the links mentioned in the post.

JujuSugar:
"Can you prove there is no God?"
This is a question I often see being tossed around in these sections by some christian apologists. Now I'm going to be honest.....
If you are christian and you think this is a good argument to use against atheists and all other non-theists as an argument for YHWH, you must either be out of your mind, or deliberately deceiving yourself.....

I agree. A Christian asking anyone to prove that God does not exist "must either be out of your mind, or deliberately deceiving yourself". That perhaps is why many claim to 'believe' God exists as opposed to 'knowing' that God exists. It sure is why many worship Jesus in fact, since the evidence for the existence of Jesus is more accessible than that for God except amongst the Jesus deniers who really are not much different to the flat earthers.

A Christian who attempts to prove the existence of God to atheists through argument is wasting their time and disobeying God. To begin with, God is a spirit and spirits are unseen. Even the holy text says "no one has ever seen God", so what exactly is it that one is required to present as evidence that God exists? And then there's the question of "exist where, exactly"? These are questions Christians appear to struggle with, it would seem, and which I shall attempt to respond to.

When a Christian is asked to prove that God exists, their mind should jump to when Christ was asked to “throw yourself down. For it is written: “‘He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’”

The devil is clearly saying, "show me your God exists", and the appropriate response is "Do not put the Lord your God to the test.”

I have always been fascinated by the creation of humans as depicted in scripture.

Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.

The above text allows the believer to claim "look at me and see God", "in the image of God he created me". Two problems arise however when the believer is looked upon and nothing godly is seen in them - hardly evidence, would be the appropriate retort. The other is that one seems to be saying oneself is God, which many Christians would never claim. But I would ask, why not? Is it not true that "the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being" "in the image of God", so "let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven" that shines forth from you the salt of the earth? Or is it the case that one is still just mud awaiting the breath of life to be breathed into it? If the Kingdom of God is truly breathed into me, then I am the evidence for my God and by my fruit shall my God be manifested, but if I walk an ungodly walk, it is not God that does not exist, but the devil that does. After all, my fruit is of particular relevance.

So let your fruits be of the spirit of God, Christian, a light that shines before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven, if the Spirit of God truly exists in the mud that you are!

Proverbs 9 Amplified Bible (AMP)
Wisdom’s Invitation
9 Wisdom has built her [spacious and sufficient] house;
She has hewn out and set up her seven pillars.
2
She has prepared her food, she has mixed her wine;
She has also set her table.
3
She has sent out her maidens, she calls
From the highest places of the city:
4
“Whoever is naive or inexperienced, let him turn in here!”
As for him who lacks understanding, she says,
5
“Come, eat my food
And drink the wine I have mixed [and accept my gifts].
6
“Leave [behind] your foolishness [and the foolish] and live,
And walk in the way of insight and understanding.”

7
He who corrects and instructs a scoffer gets dishonor for himself,
And he who rebukes a wicked man gets insults for himself.
8
[a]Do not correct a scoffer [who foolishly ridicules and takes no responsibility for his error] or he will hate you;
Correct a wise man [who learns from his error], and he will love you.
9
Give instruction to a wise man and he will become even wiser;
Teach a righteous man and he will increase his learning.
10
The [reverent] fear of the Lord [that is, worshiping Him and regarding Him as truly awesome] is the beginning and the preeminent part of wisdom [its starting point and its essence],
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding and spiritual insight.
11
For by me (wisdom from God) your days will be multiplied,
And years of life shall be increased.
12
If you are wise, you are wise for yourself [for your own benefit];
If you scoff [thoughtlessly ridicule and disdain], you alone will pay the penalty.

13
The foolish woman is restless and noisy;
She is naive and easily misled and thoughtless, and knows nothing at all [of eternal value].
14
She sits at the doorway of her house,
On a seat by the high and conspicuous places of the city,
15
Calling to those who pass by,
Who are making their paths straight:
16
“Whoever is naive or inexperienced, let him turn in here!”
And to him who lacks understanding (common sense), she says,
17
“Stolen waters (pleasures) are sweet [because they are forbidden];
And bread eaten in secret is pleasant.”
18
But he does not know that the spirits of the dead are there,
And that her guests are [already] in the depths of Sheol (the nether world, the place of the dead).

jesusjnr:
You have the right to decide what you do buda, but remember that if you hadn't come to correct me yourself that it's two not one, that the chances are that I'd yet be making the same mistake up till now?

So imagine how many people are yet making the mistake, that it's just one, not two as I did before you told me?

Hence i think it's in God interest if you get to correct them as well, remember it's no longer buda's will but God's Will be done as it was in Jesus case?

God be with you buda and bless your soul.

Michellekabod2 would tell you how difficult it is to conceive how it happened. We former atheists have written against all the lame arguments put forward for God so you must imagine a conversion is like a creation with a big bang which I am seriously finding difficult to put into words. But they'll come. Be patient. I trust the Lord.

Michellekabod2:
Good day NLs.

I do apologise for the delay on my conversion story, being damn busy.

Approximately three months ago, I surfed nairaland and then stumbled upon a thread(https://www.nairaland.com/4923763/please-tell-ushow-got-thought/2#74245802), and then was displeased by the Op who was (perhaps is) an apologist.

Prior to this I stumbled upon a moniker called jesusjnr. Never really read his topics but I somehow knew he was different from other Christians.

My six sense accepted him and then I spewed out "... jesusjnr is the only Christian that earns my respect".

That was the beginning of a sweet bitter journey

I don't believe in endings, I believe this is just the beginning of the beginning.
Every day is a beginning of something new.

That day I quoted him, I got a response from him. And then we had an argument about whether it was my intuition or the holy spirit that endorsed him

Meanwhile he warned me about a charlatan(Christian) that engaged me in conversation. It fell on deaf ears.

The scales dropped off my eyes when the said Christian Nlander blatantly said abortion was never a sin, there was nothing wrong in homosexuality, and also endorsed fornication indirectly.


To be continued tomorrow
Cc: jesusjnr,Dantedasz, brodalokie, IAmSabrina, Atewo400, alfaman3, sukerefakere, hahn, frosbel2, Joseph1013, jujusugar, hopefullandlord, HappyPagan, Hardmirror, seun, fleximor, budaatum, et al.

Michellekabod2, thank you for writing the story of our conversion, for mine was exactly the same as yours, though all threads and everyone was involved.

It was funny when jesus arrived. I was going to be his satan but he saw right through me, then I saw him tempted by real devils. Jnr, is it not true that you have had to argue with the Christians more than the atheists since you arrived? The ones I witnessed were on the proportions of Jesus, the Pharisees and the Sadducees!


Yes, it is a beginning! And isn't that glorious? There is a thread on here about spirits. You will create some about the Holy Spirit, and if you find any in the archives revive it. All that time ahead of us and this is the beginning of moreso than this will be done by people with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ the Messiah, Aleluya Amen.

TATIME:
No buda! The Bible foretells a time when these seemingly timid atheists who are hiding behind the scene will come out publicly and try to force everyone to become atheists!

And how, Tatime, will "timid atheists who are hiding behind the scene" grow the balls to boldly "come out publicly and try to force everyone to become atheists"?

Will Jesus die, or something?

OtemAtum:
What's the name of that church?

Apostolic Faith, Anthony Village.

Proverbs 8 Amplified Bible (AMP)
The Commendation of Wisdom
8 Does not wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2
On the top of the heights beside the way,
Where the paths meet, wisdom takes her stand;
3
Beside the gates, at the entrance to the city,
At the entrance of the doors, she cries out:
4
“To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is directed to the sons of men.
5
“O you naive or inexperienced [who are easily misled], understand prudence and seek astute common sense;
And, O you [closed-minded, self-confident] fools, understand wisdom [seek the insight and self-discipline that leads to godly living].
6
“Listen, for I will speak excellent and noble things;
And the opening of my lips will reveal right things.
7
“For my mouth will utter truth,
And wickedness is repulsive and loathsome to my lips.
8
“All the words of my mouth are in righteousness (upright, in right standing with God);
There is nothing contrary to truth or perverted (crooked) in them.
9
“They are all straightforward to him who understands [with an open and willing mind],
And right to those who find knowledge and live by it.
10
“Take my instruction rather than [seeking] silver,
And take knowledge rather than choicest gold,
11
“For wisdom is better than rubies;
And all desirable things cannot compare with her.

12
“I, [godly] wisdom, reside with prudence [good judgment, moral courage and astute common sense],
And I find knowledge and discretion.
13
“The [reverent] fear and worshipful awe of the Lord includes the hatred of evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way,
And the perverted mouth, I hate.
14
“Counsel is mine and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, power and strength are mine.
15
“By me kings reign
And rulers decide and decree justice.
16
“By me princes rule, and nobles,
All who judge and govern rightly.
17
“I love those who love me;
And those who seek me early and diligently will find me.
18
“Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring wealth and righteousness (right standing with God).
19
“My fruit is better than gold, even pure gold,
And my yield is better than choicest silver.
20
“I, [Wisdom, continuously] walk in the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
21
That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth and true riches,
And that I may fill their treasuries.

22
“The Lord created and possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old [were accomplished].
23
“From everlasting I was established and ordained,
From the beginning, before the earth existed, [I, godly wisdom, existed].
24
“When there were no ocean depths I was born,
When there were no fountains and springs overflowing with water.
25
“Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was born;
26
While He had not yet made the earth and the fields,
Or the first of the dust of the earth.
27
“When He established the heavens, I [Wisdom] was there;
When He drew a circle upon the face of the deep,
28
When He made firm the skies above,
When the fountains and springs of the deep became fixed and strong,
29
When He set for the sea its boundary
So that the waters would not transgress [the boundaries set by] His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth—
30
Then I was beside Him, as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight;
Rejoicing before Him always,
31
Rejoicing in the world, His inhabited earth,
And having my delight in the sons of men.

32
“Now therefore, O sons, listen to me,
For blessed [happy, prosperous, to be admired] are they who keep my ways.
33
“Heed (pay attention to) instruction and be wise,
And do not ignore or neglect it.
34
“Blessed [happy, prosperous, to be admired] is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at my doorposts.
35
“For whoever finds me (Wisdom) finds life
And obtains favor and grace from the Lord.
36
“But he who fails to find me or sins against me injures himself;
All those who hate me love and court death.”

frank317:
I really stopped having nightmares since I stopped believing. My Christian days were filled with fear; fear that I have hurt God, fear the devil will get me, fear that my enemies will get me, anxiety that I have lost Gods protection because I had sinned, fear of death and landing in burning hell. I guess those things contribute to fake visions and nightmares.

Now I sleep and wake up and life has never been easy. I have had bad dreams occasionally, but nothing to put me on the edge... U easily dismiss them and move on.

Really, real freedom comes from disbelieving in unseen beings.

I once went to a church in Anthony Village. They would send buses as far as Yaba and Ketu picking up young children to fill this huge hall. Prayer time was "pray for your mother! Pray for your daddy! They are sinners! They are going to hell!" About a thousand children 6 year old to 12 would be rolling on the floor crying to God to save their mummy and daddy from going to hell. I must have gone 4 or five times. I was 9 at the time and I always wondered what type of dreams such people have.

My last one was while I was an atheist so I still qualify so here goes. I was in a bedroom in a massive white house when I heard, "Come here buda" from off on the bed. "Take off your shoes and drink wine with me". So I took off my shoes and jumped into bed with Hillary Rodham Clinton! Na, I wasn't scared. We just talked about shoes.

jesusjnr:
I understand but people who knew you as an atheist need to hear you pronounce it at the roof tops.

They should keep their eyes on the rooftop.

TATIME:
NO buda,it's atheists that are trying to force their resolve on other!
If they truthfully agree with NO MIND CONTROLLING,they should leave everyone with his/her personal resolutions. But instead they'll be insulting those claiming faith.

Why let the forcing of anyone affect your spirit. Should you worry at those who can only hurt your flesh, and not even these? Thank God we live not in times of Jesus when people were crucified or when people were burnt at stakes.

jesusjnr:
It was only a matter of time right?

Can't wait to hear your own story, buda.

Meanwhile Michelle just got to hear your good news and she was maybe like to pm you for you may need some encouragement.

And I was like don't worry about buda, buda is fine, for she's more than capable to handle anything that comes her way, for she's got spiritual quality.

p.s. Michelle made me know you were not a he.

My story is every word I've written on here, funny enough, as they show my journey in way more detail than I can possibly attempt to rewrite it which is great for anyone with the time to read that which bears testimony to the Lord. And indeed, I am very well thank you. I wouldn't be taking anyone's word on buda gender if I were you though, as that page is yet to be written. Thank Michelle all the same.

Ihedinob3, I hope you don't mind me practising how to get over my sinning of sarcasm on you please. Juju and Pagan will be monitoring me to say when I'm being sarcastic to help me remove forests from my eyes. The Lord is our shepherd.

I have some questions please.

Ihedinobi3:
First, we don't really know very much about spirits.

To whom do you refer to as the "we", that does not really know?

Ihedinobi3:
We do know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else.

"We don't know very much", yet we "know that they can affect material phenomena but not much else"?

How do wes that know so little know so much?

Ihedinobi3:
The Bible does not go far beyond that.

Bread alone causes malnutrition. There is a benefit in a varied diet.

Ubenedictus:
actually a reading of scriptures as you described above without religion and belief is certainly not in any way objective.

Objective means, not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Ubenedictus:
The Bible was written by religious people, the immediate audience for which it was written are religious people, Israel and later the church. To read the Bible without religion and belief is the exact opposite of how it was written to be read, by so doing you arrive at defective conclusions.

I submit that one will arrive at defective conclusions by reading the Bible objectively or subjectively, alone.

In the above, everywhere that you have mentioned "people, audience, Israel, the church", subjects are meant. And, "religious, Israel, the church, belief" precisely denotes a lack of objectivity since it is the personal feelings or opinions - understanding, you would rightly claim - according to their very own unobjective subjective view.

MuttleyLaff:
If you want to be defined as a worshipper of God,
then your "if God were my god"
should be "if God were my God"
Please, at least, be consistent.

God is my God.

I dream that Independent Nigerian Electoral Commission (Inec) head Mahmood Yakubu should be fired for being incompetent!