₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: The fact that JW's are supporting you is only making your case worse. You better learn from respectable bible scholars as in the commentary posted below:

Revelation 1:8

I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."



This verse confirms the deity of our Lord Jesus Christ. You will only see it if you allow the Holy Spirit to interprete His Word to your teachable heart and then you will not fall into the hands of the wolves that parade themselves as bible teachers.

Olaadegbu u are worshipping 3 Gods....refrain from it....its simple......!!!...

.....Worship Yahweh and live......don't u get it??

Nobody here on this forum is despising Jesus....

We revere Jesus and honour Him,but we simply can't literally worship because he is our high priest.....

There is some1 higher than Jesus ,and that person demands exclusive devotion.......

This is no JW issue....this is d bible talking...

It is ur kind that has welcomed the pagan triology to explain the 1 Yahweh Jesus, the Jews and d apostles all knew.......

It is ur kind who has put Jesus on a pedestal and forgotten about the person who sent Him...

Remember john 17:3 tells us that our gaining eternal life depends on knowing Yahweh and the 1 whom he sent..(JEsus)...

U are knowing only Jesus and forgetting Yahweh....

U had better retrace ur step...

Leave the trinity alone.....

Callotti: No problem.
When you can give me a MORTAL like myself TO WORSHIP. . .with the same frailties, gimme a holla. I am not interested in an arrogant supernatural being created by the feverish machinations of EARTHLY, spiritual-cowards afraid to live and die in EVERY one breath.
Till then. . .I don't plan to visit a church or anywhere 2 or 3 are gathered in HIS name in my lifetime to listen to the preacheries against mortals like moi.
Thank ya!

So u wuld prefer u worshipped a mortal??

Mohammed is there...lol...

Area_boy: Not a chance!

Can you tell me why i must obey them? doesn't make any sense to slave myself under one invincible beardy and one 1st century Jew.

When I can chart my own course, do good to my fellow man and live honestly!

All that seem to be missing is for me to agree that a 5 feet tall Jew died for my sins? silly

U feel u can do good perfectly to ur fellow man??

The only standard for goodness is Yahweh...if u don't meet up with it,then ur just been good in ur own eyes.....

And yes u gotta obey GOD...its not like u shuld be compelled to....Yahweh is appealing u do,since it will be for ur own good......

He's commandments and priciples aint burdensome......

musKeeto: Why not be straight forward by appending "TO Frosbel" to the topic title...

Exactly...

Let him just re-edit the topic to be "" those who depart..e.g frosbel""....lol...

The boy has left d pagan trinity dogma, hell fire,immortality of the soul,rapture ,christmas too I hope for olaadegbu and Co...........

@ola......frosbel has only been doing one very good thing::::

Testing the scriptures and leaving man made/pagan traditions that has had a firm grip on the churches for too long...

Remember human/pagan traditions and the principles of GOD don't ryhme.......

No vex o I jus dey talk.....
Ur still my pal.....

Area_boy: I'm not actually cos i know it'll end someday . Too bad for you on the other hand. Enjoy heaven, worshiping and singing glory to daddy bigboss day in day out. NICE !!!!

Its so sad to know ur convinced that u got no hope...

But I culd help...

Psalms 37:29....

U culd live on earth forever if u obey Yahweh and his son...

Area_boy: @ Jim Jeffries

I tot i was the only one that has seen that beer toting cvnt!! hahaha He's amazing , The Aussies get it right sometimes


"The bible calls heaven eternal bliss. Now I don't care how blissful it is, its ETERNAL. You'll get used to it, and then you'll be fcking bored" LOL

Aint u bored and tired of this insane world??

ea7: In philosophy, I was taught if you want to prove something, your premises must be verifiable. Yours are not. So your argument (whatever trash you wrote as your op ) is invalid.

It might sound like trash,but that is what it is.....

U can't judge GOD....he is GOD..don't u get it??

thehomer: Why did Yahweh allow Job to be tortured that way? And for his children to be killed? To satisfy his ego? A being who does that is considered to be evil or narcissistic. He then had Job have more children. As if that would replace the ones that were lost. Just ask a parent who loses a child and gives birth to 5 more. Ask them if they don't pine for the missing one.

Claiming that God's reasons are above human comprehension doesn't really help because for all we know, he may actually be an evil God who has deceived Christians into worshiping him.

Which reminds me of this quote from a comedian.

There u go asking the same old questions....

Even if I give an answer u wuldnt be satisfied with it........

adaifeoma: my brother abeg tell am.maybe he is a jehova withness

Hahahahahahahhaa...he isn't ..

Frosbel is simply a bible student who has chosen to leave d doctrines of men for the real truth.....

The dogma of billions of persons burning in a furnace is a scam.!!!!!!

Use recent translations and re-enditions and find out if the word Hell is used......

Many at times on this forum atheists ,agnostics and some feeble theists have doubted the morality of Yahweh and sometimes have wondered if Jesus did actually learn all he knew from Yahweh..

Many tend to question Gods actions and instructions..
Some(like logic boy and some hard hearted atheists here) if it was possible would take Yahweh to court for his actions in the past and for what he'll do in the future....

Questions like these have been asked on this forum::

1..If God knew adam and eve would eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad why did he put the tree in the garden of eden in the 1st place.??.

2..Why would God(Yahweh) instruct the isrealites to engage in wars and kill those who didn't worship Yahweh.??.(Atheists say God is genocidal)


And many others questions related to Yahwehs morality...

I would like such individuals to share the same thought as did JOB in the scriptures as recorded @ JOB 9:32..

New Living Translation (©2007)
"God is not a mortal like me, so I cannot argue
with him or take him to trial.

World English Bible
For he is not a man, as I am, that I should
answer him, that we should come together in
judgment.
....

Lesson!!!!!?

We should never impose our limitations on Yahweh and judge him by our standards and thinking..

God doesn't operate on the same frequency with us(humans)..

So our sense of judgement and laid down(man made) precepts can never be measured up to that of GOD's..


Like JOB,when we start to understand the mind of God,we cannot help but exclaim::
""
These are just the beginning of all that he
does, merely a whisper of his power. Who,
then, can comprehend the thunder of his
power?"(Job 26:14)...


I don't intend to debate much on this....

Because I have come to acknowledge that I don't and can't understand all that Yahweh does..it will take me forever to comprehend his ways and actions...

If films are being produced in yoruba,igbo,hausa and other languages what is wrong if its time for films to be produced in ijaw language??...

What is wrong o??

I smell bigotry and hatred on this thread......

Even as an ijaw kid I watch nolly wood movies that are acted with the native dialects of various tribes(that are not Ijaw) in 9ja...why won't u guys here welcome films that will be produced with the ijaw language...??..

holyvirgin: go thru d thread again, he has answered all your question.

He answered nothing.....

How can some1 come up here and tell us mary is immaculate....

Sometin is definitly wrong with u guys....

CrazyMan: My dear there are no such things as ghosts...take your time to look at the definition of a ghost below...

The soul of a dead person, a disembodied spirit imagined, usually as a vague, shadowy or evanescent form, as wandering among or haunting living persons.

Does that sound realistic to you? I believe ghosts are just imaginations from people with mental issues, people who drink too much, and people who are tired of life.

My bible tells me in

Hebrews 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

But last time I checked many christians called and refered to the the spirit of holiness(holy spirit) as a GHOST....

Don't u use the term"" HOLY GHOST""??....

Think about it my bro....

stillme: why do some christians run away from taking holy communion? Reading John 6-53:54,is it not part of our christian life that we must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood for Him to dwell in us?

Then after eating it ,we then worship mary as well...abi??

Image123: @MyJoe
Sorry fros and ijawk, i'll answer your posts in this response to MyJoe. You both sidestepped the passages i presented though.
So we are in the second phase and i think it is good progress, plus the point that we started with NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN to a new point of 144000 going to Heaven. It's some movement.


The scripture teaches destination Heaven. We would not be strangers and pilgrims if we are to inherit this earth. Its undeniable that believers are citizens of Heaven.

Philippians 3:20

(ALT) For our citizenship exists in [the] heavens, from where also we eagerly await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ,

(ASV) For our citizenship is in heaven; whence also we wait for a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:

(BBE) For our country is in heaven; from where the Saviour for whom we are waiting will come, even the Lord Jesus Christ:

(CEV) But we are citizens of heaven and are eagerly waiting for our Savior to come from there. Our Lord Jesus Christ

(GW) We, however, are citizens of heaven. We look forward to the Lord Jesus Christ coming from heaven as our Savior.

(ISV) Our citizenship, however, is in heaven, and it is from there that we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ.

(KJV) For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:
This point is clear, lets not forget that or have me requoting myself. Now to the reconciliation. i would love to go through several passages from the scriptures but for time/now, let me use Revelation and perhaps some chip in from other passages. The book of Revelations mentions of people in Heaven.

Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:
These are UNDENIABLY people in Heaven. And like Jesus said "great is your reward in heaven". I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. After this phase, these people will come down to this earth WITH Jesus Christ to reign for 1000years. They are not staying in Heaven to reign by bluetooth or whatever method ijawk is proposing.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
This passage references Jesus Christ about to come to earth, not just to the skies but to touch down on earth.


Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Notice He's not coming alone but with an army of saints.

Jude 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Incase you didn't get it before, i hope you get it from these verses that it is referring to Jesus Christ and that He would smite the nations.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshiped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
As is customary, Jesus gets the victory when He comes to this earth with His saints from HEAVEN. Then they proceed on a 1000year reign to show the world how its been done. It is in that period that there will be peace unprecedented from the Prince of Peace, and the wolf and the lamb will ..., and the paradise pictures on the JW mags will make sense etc.


Rev 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
At this same time, Satan would be bound concurrently, there will be no tempter, no accuser, or destroyer. 1000years of some sanity and the saints/believers will reign on this earth for that thousand years with Jesus.
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshiped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
This is the momenttime Jesus spoke of, when the 12 would be in charge of Israel, and maybe me in charge of Nigeriahahahaha. On a serious note, observe also the souls that alethia talked of 'under the altar', they also get to reign and their friends. And ofcourse, ijawk's 144000 would also be there. It's all the same time. But this is NOT forever and ever. This is for a thousand years. Reigning on this earth is for 1000years. This is not our inheritance. After the 100years, Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Satan would come to earth and deceive some of the people that the saints are reigning over.

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Incase you didn't get it that the saints are on earth for 1000years, this passage should settle it. They COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS AND JERUSALEM. This time around, God the Father sent/sends down fire, and captures the devil for final judgement. After this, everybody gets to go to Heaven, yay but no yay, for the great white throne judgement.

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Jesus is back in Heaven with the saints, and alot of visitors. Just to chip in that Jesus is the scary 'Him that sat on it'
John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
The bolded is the part where this earth and heaven pass away LITERALLY. Peter clearly says that this world would be destroyed, and i've shown of Jesus talking of 'this world' and 'that world'. He is the One who knows all things, and through whom grace and truth came. He is greater than Solomon and Ecclesiates or Psalms or whatever passage(which BTW all referred to 'the earth' and not specifically 'this earth', not having the benefit of hindsight, a complete Bible or the Holy Spirit in the fullness that we are opportuned).

2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
This earth and its heaven would be destroyed by fire.
Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
Psa 102:26 They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
Looks like a contradiction coming from the Psalms, but with Jesus comes the light and the revelation that there are actually two earths, and the context determines which is being referred to.

Isa 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. Quite peteric imustsay. There is an END to this world.
Isa 51:6 Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath: for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner: but my salvation shall be forever, and my righteousness shall not be abolished.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
All these heat cannot be happening and people are on the earth. You may want to ask the geologists and scientists, this is a very simple and catastrophic thing for God to do. It simply takes Him a distabilizing of the system. The earth will be burnt up and its elements. It's not referring to an age or metaphor or people, its talking of physical things
(CEV) The day of the Lord's return will surprise us like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a loud noise, and the heat will melt the whole universe. Then the earth and everything on it will be seen for what they are.
(GNB) But the Day of the Lord will come like a thief. On that Day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up and be destroyed, and the earth with everything in it will vanish.

2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
All these things will be dissolved. the earth is all vanity. These things are the physical earth and what's in it, its not just people or an age or system, it is the tangible earth.
1John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
This Peter passage is so repetitive of this issue that this earth will be destroyed and a new earth would come. that is why our hope is in Heaven, that is where there is no corruption. That is where things will last.
Mat 6:19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.

And so, at this great white throne judgement, the earth and the heaven, or more specifically, this earth and its heaven will be destroyed. and there was found no place for them.

Then follows the judgement of others,

---

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

---

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
The bolded is clear, i don't need to reexplain. There is a new heaven, a new earth, a first heaven, and a first earth. None of the four is metaphoric. the verse even geographically states as a matter of fact that there is no sea in this new earth. It's geographically said that this earth has 70% sea and 30% land, but that new earth has no sea. This is so physical, it is not talking about ages, or a set of people. If anything is talking about a set of people, it may be the Holy city COMING OUT OF HEAVEN. Talk about NO ONE GOING to Heaven.
Well, this new earth and new heaven is itself nothing short of Heaven. there is no sun in this one.
Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign forever and ever.
No night in Heaven, alleluia. God is there physically dwelling there. Why would anybody argue that this kain place is not Heaven, just to play with words or what? God is there 247, Jesus is there 247, the tree of life is there, the angels are there. The river of life is there, the throne of God and of the Lamb is there.
Rev 22:1 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Obviously now, the set that are in the place these verses talk about are in Heaven anyway we put it. that's the reconciliation.

So please image can u tell me what d physical earth has done to deserve destruction by its maker??

I have a scripture for u to meditate on.....

2 peter 3:3-7

3 Above all, you must understand that in the
last days scoffers will come, scoffing and
following their own evil desires. 4 They will
say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever
since our ancestors died, everything goes on as
it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But
they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s
word the heavens came into being and the
earth was formed out of water and by water.
6 By these waters also the world of that time
was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same
word the present heavens and earth are
reserved for fire, being kept for the day of
judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Verse 6 says the world then was destroyed and deluged by water(not the physical earth as u might be thinking).....
Would u assume that after the then world was destroyed during noahs day ,Yahweh had to create a new earth??

then verse 7 says by d same word d present heavens and earth that are now are reserved for fire....(Would u assume its d physical earth apostle peter was talking about??)

Now image would u tell me if the physical earth wuld be destroyed??or the society of the ungodly??

Please let's understand scriptures with scriptures.....

This earth will remain forever.....it would not be made to totter.....wicked and lawless men would be wiped off the surface of the earth,not the literal earth being destroyed

naslinks: 6. Mediatrix

Much of the devotion to Mary shown by Christians of the Catholic and other Ancient Churches depends upon Mary's mediation. This mediation is seen in terms of Mary's assistance in prayer and in obtaining grace.

Many Protestants oppose prayer to Mary and the Saints, citing this verse:

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; " (I Timothy 2:5).

SO IF JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR, WHY PRAY TO MARY?

As in other cases, Protestant fundamentalists often tend to quote just one verse completely out of context. So let's look at the whole passage.

"I urge then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone - for kings, for all those in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life in all godliness and holiness. This is good and pleases God our Saviour, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man, Christ Jesus."
1Timothy 2:1-5

From this full text of the passage we can see three important things:

1. Paul is asking fellow Christians to pray and intercede with God for those in authority and for other third parties.

2. These prayers and intercessions are being made on behalf of other people, and to God. This is a mediation of prayer. Christians are being asked to mediate between all people, Christian and non-Christian, and God.

3. Since this is all one passage, it is absolutely clear that when Paul refers to there being only one mediator between God and men, he is not referring to the mediation of prayer. Jesus's unique mediation is a different mediation - the mediation of our salvation.

Jesus is the one Mediator of our salvation, our only Saviour. But He is not our only intercessor, as the whole passage above clearly indicates. So the one passage that fundamentalists have used to deny intercessionary prayer, when read in context, actually backs up intercessionary prayer.

YES. BUT WHY SHOULD I ASK MARY OR ANYONE ELSE TO PRAY TO GOD FOR ME WHEN I CAN PRAY TO HIM MYSELF?

When we are ill, or someone we care for needs prayer, we ask other people to pray to God for us. Why do we do this if our own prayer is enough?
In James 5. 14-16 we are told to get the Elders of the Church to pray for us and to annoint us when we are sick. Reading on, we find:

James 5: 16-18 " ...The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.  Elijah was a human being like us; yet he prayed earnestly that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain upon the land.  Then he prayed again, and the sky gave rain and the earth produced its fruit."

So we see that intercession strengthens prayer. And the more righteous and faithful the intercessor is, the more powerful the prayer.

BUT THAT IS PRAYER ON EARTH. I'VE BEEN TOLD THAT PEOPLE IN HEAVEN CAN NEITHER SEE US OR PRAY FOR US.

That is a recent, man-made doctrine, with no authority behind it.

Hebrews 12.1 speaks of "a great cloud of witnesses" who surround us, and who consist of the faithful holy ones of God. Many examples of these witnesses are given in the preceding Chapter 11 of Hebrews.

Later in the Bible we see this vision of heaven:

Revelation 4.4: Surrounding the throne were twenty four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.
Revelation 5.8: ...and the twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

The twenty-four elders are shown offering the prayers of Christians to God; which is a mediatory role.



 

7. Ever Virgin

The traditional belief of all the Ancient churches is that the Virgin Mary remained a virgin all her life.

"For neither did Mary, who is to be honoured and praised above all others, marry anyone, nor did she ever become the Mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever and immaculate virgin." (Didimus the Blind, The Trinity. 381 AD)

Many Protestants choose to argue with this, quoting the following text:

Matt 1.24-25: And being aroused from sleep, Joseph did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife, and did not know her until she bore her son, the Firstborn. And he called his name Jesus.

There are two points here. 1. The word "until", sometimes taken to imply that Joseph "knew" Mary after the birth of Jesus; and 2. "Firstborn", sometimes taken to imply other children.

With regard to the word "until", let's look at the following verses:

Matt 28.20: "..and surely I am with you always, until the end of the age."

John 21.22: Jesus answered. "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

2 Sam 6.23: "no son was born to Michol, the daughter of Saul until her dying day."

In all these examples, the word "until" does not mean that Jesus will cease to be with us after the end of the age, that John was intended to die should he still be alive when Jesus returned, or that Michol had a son after death. The word "until" shows that the writer is concerned primarily to inform us what happens before a specific event - not after.

For the rest, let us allow a very unexpected defender of Marian doctrine to answer the points:

There have been certain folk who have wished to suggest from this passage [Matt 1:25] that the Virgin Mary had other children than the Son of God, and that Joseph had then dwelt with her later; but what folly this is! For the gospel writer did not wish to record what happened afterwards; he simply wished to make clear Joseph's obedience and to show also that Joseph had been well and truly assured that it was God who had sent His angel to Mary.  He had therefore never dwelt with her nor had he shared her company... And besides this, Our Lord Jesus Christ is called the first born. This is not because there was a second or a third, but because the gospel writer is paying regard to precedence. Scripture speaks thus of naming the first-born whether or not there was any question of the second."
John Calvin; "Sermon on Matthew", published 1562

BUT WHAT ABOUT JESUS' BROTHERS MENTIONED IN THE BIBLE?

There are several gospel references to Jesus having "brothers and sisters". This is the most specific:

Matthew 13:55. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers, James, Joses, Simon and Judas? 56 Aren't all his sisters with us?"

One traditional response is that these may have been children of Joseph from an earlier marriage. Joseph is traditionally held to be much older than Mary.

Another important factor here is that the language used in the Palestine of Jesus's time was Aramaic. In the Aramaic language used at that time, there was no word in existence to denote cousin. The Jews therefore had to use the word brother where they meant to describe any close male relative. This is so even today in many languages and cultures, particularly where there is an extended family system. The loose term "brother" or "sister" is used to cover the children of ones uncles and aunts as well as those of ones own parents.

WHAT PROOF IS THERE OF THIS?

Gen 14:14 "And when Abram heard that his Brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan."

The "brother" referred to here is Lot. Lot was the son of Aran, Abram's own dead brother (Gen 11:26-28). He was therefore Abram's Nephew, even though the text refers to him as a "brother".

BUT THE NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN GREEK, WHICH DOES HAVE A WORD FOR COUSIN.

This is a bit of a red-herring for two reasons. Firstly, there is evidence from the Early Church Fathers that the Book of Matthew, at least, was originally written in Aramaic, and so was translated into Greek. Secondly, we know that the people of Palestine in Jesus's time spoke in Aramaic, and it is therefore in Aramaic in which the oral stories which were later written down to form the Gospels, were transmitted. So it is likely that the Aramaic word "brother", meaning not only sibling, but any kinsman, was translated into the Greek word "brother", which has the tighter meaning of sibling only. This is clearly what has happened in Genesis 14.14 above.

SO WHO WERE THESE "BROTHERS OF JESUS?"

A. While James and Joses are mentioned as Jesus's brothers in Matthew 13:55, it is made clear in Mathew 27:56 and Mark 15:40 that their mother was another Mary.
Matthew 27:56 Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's sons.

This "other Mary" at the Cross, is revealed in John 19:25 to be the wife of Cleophas. Mary of Cleophas is therefore revealed as the mother of two of Jesus's so-called "brothers", James and Joses.

B. In John 19:25, the original Greek states. "But by he cross of Jesus were the Mother of Him AND the sister of the Mother of Him, Mary the wife of Cleopas AND Mary the Magdalene." The precise positioning of the ANDs makes it clear that Mary the Wife of Cleopas, is also referred to as the Virgin Mary's sister. Since we know no-one has two daughters and calls them BOTH Mary, we know that sister here does not mean sister. The same would apply to "brother" with reference to Jesus.

C. In the introduction to the Book of Jude, Jude introduces himself as: Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ, and a brother of James. If Jude/Judas were truly the brother of Jesus, why wouldn't he say so? He identifies himself in his letter as brother of James, but significantly as servant of Jesus. To have identified himself as Jesus's blood brother would have added enormous weight to his epistle, but he doesn't so identify himself here. We know the reason, because James and Joseph have already been revealed to be sons of the other Mary in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. Judas then must also be a son of this other Mary. Mary wife of Cleophas. So another of Jesus's so-called "brothers" is eliminated.

D. James "Brother of Jesus" is referred to as one of the APOSTLES by Paul in Galatians 1:19. . We know that neither of the Apostles named James was actually a Son of Mary. So James, "brother of Jesus" cannot be a Son of Mary. He is actually James, Son of Alphaeus (thought to be another form of Cleophas)! James is a kinsman of Jesus, but not a sibling.

A few more points:

In Luke 2:41-51, the twelve-year-old Jesus goes missing on a trip to Jerusalem, and is only found three days later in the temple. Yet in all this time no mention at all is made of any other children, even though the entire family made the journey together. If all the people mentioned in Matthew were actually surviving children of Mary, she would have had at least seven children younger than Jesus to look after! In fact both Mary and Joseph race back to Jerusalem to find him, through country filled with bandits, something they could not have done if there had been babies and other young children in need of care!
The people of Nazareth refer to Jesus as "the son of Mary" (Mark 6:3), not as "a son of Mary"
Finally, if James and Joseph, Simon and Jude, were children of Mary, and if Jesus had even more brothers and sisters, why did Jesus commit His Mother to the care of St. John at His death?

So from ur whole write up I want u to quote just 1 scripture where d apostles and early christians were urged to bow down to mary when she was alive and also to her image after she died........please show us...

Not 1 scripture will support the reverence and attention mary recieves from catholics except from the adoption of pagan customs......

U guys have made mary perfect and immaculate by all means possible so that u can worship and pray through her...

Yahweh is watching!!!!......Jesus too is watching!!!!!!!!..........

What annoys me most is when u guys bow down to the image of an imperfect woman...and u guys turn around to pick scriptures that are nt even connected to what is being discussed......

From this post I now understand from the catholics that Jesus died for every other persons sin except that of mary since mayb she fell from heaven and was immaculate.....

And I have been asking on this page when mary was born ubenidictus and Co. Hasn't provided any answer for me.....

I'm waiting!!!!!!!!.....

Ubenidictus how far na??....how u dey??

obadiah777: Goshen been drinking sapele water this morning

Lmao...

Goshen shuld be with his chewing stick and a shot of tombo...

musKeeto: But Jesus sat with the tax collectors, didn't he?

To do what with them??discuss the politics that existed then in the time of the Jews??

Jesus preached and left.....not stay and embessle along with the politicians of his day....

Jesus never gathered world rulers back then to pray with them...did he??

musKeeto: Dorox, why are you still Christian?

Lol......he still is...

My question to these clerics and our thieving politicians are:::::....what are they praying for??

Would oyedepo,adeboye,and oritsejafor tell me they are not aware that these politicians would still go back to embessle public funds after there so called prayer session??

I just see birds of a feather flocking together...

Politicians and these top religious clerics are d same.....

Scammers!!!!!

Its historic and scientific accuracy convinces me beyond reasonable doubt that the bible is from GOd.....

Goshen360: No mind the guy jare.....he don dey follow me so tay afraid don dey catch me sef to talk now......na to go chnage id like someone i know but can't mention his name so my name no go enter pharisee and Sadducee list.......

Hahahahahaha.....

Oh u sef don see that list??laugh wan kill me when I. See am,........

I don forget the person wey dey 1st on the list....

musKeeto: Smh....

Na lie I talk??lol

obadiah777: 7-Muskeeto- now he is a pharisee and sadducee combined lol

Lmao......

Muskeeto is infact. Ceaser...

obadiah777: you have come a long way from your church doctrine days Frosbel. i am proud of you. great article

Oh yeah...

These are d real truths found in the scriptures......

Only Gods kingdom with Jesus as Yahwehs king designate can solve the worlds problems not humans......

Because man has dominated man to his injury..

Ecclesiastes 8:9...

Young's Literal Translation
All this I have seen so as to give my heart to
every work that hath been done under the sun;
a time that man hath ruled over man to his own
evil.
.....

ifeness: You need to stop creating negative energies and mindset. Education doesn't really guarantee enlightenment,it comes from within. What you saying is really absurd. The fact that negative minded people are in power doesn't mean they will be there for ever!

I don't believe Satan rules the world,but negative minded people like you do. Rather than dream of the new earth promised to you in the bible, why not be a part of the change that will eventually happen. Africa will soon experience the rise like a phoenix from the ashes

I'm doing my part already to make 9ja a good place........I'm law abiding and I help my neighbours...

But I just told u a real fact...wether u got good intentions for 9ja or not,to rule this country u must be part of the ogboni frat....

Got it??

If not u'll be killed nigga....

Image123: @MyJoe and others


Okay at your service. iguess i was initially narrow on frosbel because of his recent history and his direct statements as "Believe me no one is going to heaven" and this below.



To be more broad though, there is no disagreement to the existence of new heavens and a new earth. The subtle difference is that i believe that there will be a new earth, but frosbel believes that this earth is the new earth. The Bible teaches that there will be a new earth that is DIFFERENT from this earth. Fros and the gang(including your JW friends,sorry) believe that believers are going nowhere but will be in this earth. i believe we are not going to be in this earth but another which is the new earth, and that we are going to Heaven (actually, the true 'shocker' is that we are all going to Heaven, both saints and sinners).
The Bible makes a distinction between two different earths. the verses below are some examples.
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Jesus didn't say "heaven and earth MAY pass away", He said "heaven and earth shall pass away"
Matt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

Obviously, He knew that this earth would not continue forever. Peter talks about the destruction of this earth.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The Bible characters knew that we(believers) were STRANGERS in this world and pilgrims, travelers, visitors. they said that our citizenship is in Heaven, frosbel without mincing words says it is here on earth.
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

Jesus Christ made several distinctions between this earth and the new earth;
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Joh 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Luk 20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
Luk 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:

So when the Bible talks about 'the world' or 'the earth', it behooves us that we consider the Spirit and the context, is it this world or that earth that is been referenced, instead of fumbling it all together and confidently confusing others in the process.

That being stated, apart from the saints/believers inheriting the new earth and NOT THIS EARTH(Like the song writer says "This world is not mine own", the Bible teaches that the believers would go to Heaven and are from Heaven. Here are scriptures like was asked for;
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Luk 24:51 And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also
Eph 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him. .
Jesus went to Heaven to prepare a place, it's not this earth He's preparing.

Phi 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ:
our conversation, our citizenship is in Heaven.

Heb 10:34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, KNOWING in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance.
This heaven is common knowlegde even to the athiest until frosbel and his gang comes along with strange teaching to catch attention.

1Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Some sect usually say that some few people are going to Heaven, but frosbel boldly states in topic thread and posts that NO ONE is going to Heaven. Yet the Bible states otherwise. Enoch and Elijah are in Heaven. Moses and Elijah came to Jesus during His transfiguration from Heaven, not to forget the souls at the altar that have been previously mentioned. here are three other instances of people in Heaven;
Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
Rev 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honor, and power, unto the Lord our God:


If frosbel and the gang don't want to go to Heaven, well I have heard about Heaven, and I want to go there. Many of us have our affections set there. SOrry its a little long, understand this first phase and then perhaps other phases unclear or unexaplained can be further explained.

Hey bro Jesus prepared a place in heaven for the 144000 ""elect" who will be co-priests and kings with Him,,,,,.....they have a serious Job to do,not to go sing and clap hands there in the heavens....
Remember during that 1 thousand year reign of Christ along with his Elects,humans would be under there subjection here on earth.....then after that millenial reign satan wuld be released once more to tempt those who never took part in the 1st ressurection(those who weren't amongst the elects that went to heaven to join Christ).....after all satan wouldn't tempt those in heaven would he??so definitly persons must be on earth,.....

Revelation 20:6-8....
6 Blessed and holy are those who
share in the first resurrection. The second
death has no power over them, but they will be
priests of God and of Christ and will reign with
him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are over, Satan
will be released from his prison 8 and will go
out to deceive the nations in the four corners
of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather
them for battle. In number they are like the
sand on the seashore.

U can't just throw away the fact that rigtheous persons will reside on this earth forever......

Remember this earth was made to be inhabited by man forever and ever...Gods initial plan for man hasn't changed....

Like frosbel said,this earth will be rid off all sorts of wickedness for the meek to inhabit it......

The teaching of all good persons going to heaven was never taught by Jesus...

Read matthew 5:3 $ 5........

I no know wetin everybody wan go heaven go do sef.........

And mind u Yahweh does the selection...so its not like u must go to heaven.....u can't just sit there and assume u must go to heaven...wetin u wan go do there??read


The earth is here for u to reside in it forever...(Clean earth free from lawlessness)...

Abraham,isaac,jacob,job,isaiah,david,solomon sarah,moses etc all have the prospects of living here on earth forever when they are ressurected.....

obadiah777: REVELATION 19 VS 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. SO GOSHEN SERIALLINK JOAGBAJE FROSBEL IJAWKID OLADEGBU AND ALL THE CHRISTIANS ON NAIRALAND I HOPE YALL READY TO FIGHT BRITAIN AND THE EUROZONE AND CHINA AND ALL THE OTHER WORLD ARMY. YALL BETTER START YALL PUSH-UPS AND WEIGHT-LIFTING AND KARATE LESSONS. WE HAVE A HUGE TASK AHEAD OF US. OF COURSE THE MIGHT OF THE WORLD ARMY WOULD HAVE BEEN SERIOUSLY REDUCED BY ARMAGEDDON SO OUR TASK WILL BE EASY SOMEWHAT.

Lmao.....chei u won't kill me with laugh....

I'm dumbelling already...getting ready for the war....hope ur strapped mate??

ifeness: The second coming is very near indeed. I myself foresee a true messiah coming to bail Nigeria out of her misery. A person with vision who will not only win the heart of Nigerians,but refresh her our ways of thinking.

No disrespect to Goodluck Jonathan,but it is obvious he hasn't got what it takes,in fact he is part of the old wine waiting to be thrown into the trash can

Nigeria needs a lot of patriotic free thinkers who will go at any length to secure a bright future for the next generation without war and bloodshed.

I hope some day we shall be free from religion,mental slavery,corruption,manipulation etc...Its possible.

I know someday,rather than wait in pain and vain for a God in the sky , we will instead build rockets like the Americans to visit other planets and universes.

We are waiting for u to come and rule....

But ready to join ogboni 1st....lol.....

Satan rules d world.....all ya plans will end up being the wish of satan and his demons....

@macdaddy.....come and be president of 9ja na....u dey fear?

Goshen360: ^^^
Chai, see as all these brothers dey wait for me esp that one wey dem dey call or na him dey call himself "truthislight" wey dey follow me everywhere for nairaland as he wan marry mi ni . Can't you read between the lines . You no see say I just dey catch fun for this thread Abeg, make you be in the Spirit o.....so you go see clearly

I was doing same manipulations that pro-tithe false teachers does to the scripture.....trying to imitate them. Alas, our people don know the truth already.........[size=15pt]HENCE, I REMAIN ANTI-TITHE TEACHER TILL CHRIST RETURNS[/size]

I don nearly get cardiac arrest...lol...truthislight for arrest u if to say u no remain an anti-tither....lol

Goshen360: at the highlight.

Hey, my dearest sister. Long time. How una dey? Which one be this una come open my yansh for Internet naw? As if me and una don talk somewhere before? Na wah for una o.....Okay, as una don open my yansh now....make I just go hide na eim remain o. You are in the Spirit but make I try this one remaining verse wey I wan use:

5. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: 6. But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Heb. 7, Kjv

Verses 6 CLEARLY proves that ANOTHER, other than from the tribe of Levi can receive tithe. So when Jesus who is NOT part of/from the tribe of Levi according to verse 13-14 RECEIVES our tithes, what then is the problem of the anti-tithers? .....anyone wanna dabate this verse?

13. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. 14. For [it is] evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.

Heb. 7, Kjv

Ok so u mean the new group of persons to accept tithes started existing immediately after the apostles and 1st century passed away??

Because the apostles and 1st century christians never tithed.....

Abi??I know u know that....

Every single thing connected to the priesthOod and temple back then in isreal has been shattered by Jesus's death....

Tithe o,animal sacrifice o,burnt offerings o,earthly priest o,under priests o, etc....all gone....

Goshen we are no longer under d law......u wanna drag us back??

If Jesus our new priest never talked about tithes,his apostles who were jews and had worshipped in the temple b4 there conversion and the gentiles who became christians never received nor paid tithes why should u support tithing??

No do o....

We no go gree this 1 with u....lol...