₦airaland Forum

GeneralShepherd: A non-living thing is not conscious

Define living and then define consciousness

GeneralShepherd: Annony, I really don't agree that a stone is conscious. Why? because a stone can and will never exhibit the characteristics of a living thing.

A non-living thing can never be conscious

And you think consciousness = living

MrAnony1: I hope you do realize that a response to stimuli and consciousness are in totally different categories. For instance, a mango tree responds to stimuli but is not necessarily conscious. A dreaming man is conscious of his dreams though he may not necessarily respond to external stimuli.


P/s: I am still awaiting a response to my comments on the first page of this thread here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1886955/when-die#26034521

I would like us to have a conversation on the points I raised. I hope you didn't mention me in the OP only to have me ignored.

False. A tree is conscious so is a sleeping man

MrAnony1: Wrong, that is not what I said at all. Here is what I said;

a) If an afterlife does not exist then man really has no actual moral obligations i.e It is not reasonable to act morally

b) If an afterlife exists and it's outcome depends on the way the present life is lived, then there are actual moral obligations and hence it is reasonable to act morally.

and this implies morality decides ur experience of afterlife and not belief in Christ...simple as that

EldaTimba: NIGERIANS should wake up. I foresee a tribal war(not online) where several people will die. Let us not forget US prediction. With the way this argument is going, it will lead to a war between igbos and yoruba/hausa which will spell doom to this nation. As a Yoruba person, I think we should know that one Nigeria is more better than Oduduwa nation.
#Shalom.

Oduduwa nation is the only thing right and good for the Yoruba.

A large ethnic group like ours needs it's own government to control itself.

woo to the disgusting British lugard who formed this Nigeria

thorpido: Time is changing and has changed!The decay in the world had nothing to do with religion.It's a dying world and decay is inevitable.

Why are we Africans crazy about computers and the internet?Was it not the oyinbos that brought it?We should have rejected it since it was the oyinbos that brought it.
It's not about what is brought but how it is used.

Christianity is not a religion though many do not understand.Jesus brought eternal life.No prophet made promise of eternal life neither could they give it.Perfect christianity is faultless.

We need computers we don't need christianity...this is jst very simple

Rapsainot: let me help the OP by sharing this This article is about an area of land in biblical times.
For the 20th century British protectorate, see
Emirate of Transjordan. For the district of
Transjordan during the Crusades. source: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transjordan_(Bible)

Thanks. This map I have seen long ago and any one would notice it is pretty much identical to 21st century Israel.

Israel never owned past this land

bbkkatunxo: bros hmmm stop this lie na, most Nigerian women that's is 60 years and above got married before the age of 20 and that's why you see their first child have an interval of less than 20yrs with their mum, pls do me a favour and ask any mama sixty's or seventy (60 or 70) around you at what age did they get married

More proof less rants pls

Tolexander: can you present the map of the geographical location occupied by the biblical israelites?

If you have it, present it and let us analyse if Yahweh failed in his promise or not. I'd given you the difference between the biblical Israelites and present one.

Where you going with this?? are you saying old Israel is not of the geography of the Israel of today?
Where was Israel then?? In America?? Or deep in the Mesopotamian mountains??

Israel is Israel. No other Israel ever existed.
The most you can say is the "promised land" was part of Israel at a time, which you would need to prove

JesusisLord85: Are you a reprobate.

Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled"

He shall bring his people, the ones he scatted, back into the land and shall drive out the heathen that dwell there. And there, the Most High shall establish His Kingdom on earth.

Don't I remember you being a 'christian' once upon a time. Seems you jumped out of the pan and into the frier.
More hope for even shdemidemi and goshen than for you.

freaking lunatic

If Jerusalem is now owned by non-Jews (gentiles) then Yahweh is even worse than I imagined

Tolexander: bro! actually, world politics today isn't something one can absolutely explain using religious knowledge. If religious knowledge is applied, one won't have solid premise to stand on.

Biblicaly, the land was promised by God to be given to the Israelites i.e the descendant of Abraham. and they were given. The exodus of the Israelites started from Egypt, wandering through the present Sinai Peninsula. The then Israelites were dealing with God.

Suddenly, Israel as a nation vanished from the map and restored by the final action of the UN after the 2nd World War, 1948 precisely. Though before then, there had been Zionism i.e the nationalist idea of creating a jewish home that will liberate them from the antisemitic treatment, discrimination and persecution like it was in Germany.
The Jews were from different part of the world.

The today's Israel is a nation dealing with the UN not God as the then Israel. There are many differences

[color=crimson]1[/color] different origin and exodus: The then Israel had their origin from Egypt.
The present Israel had the Jews coming from different origins like Poland, US, Canada, Germany, UK and even South Africa. Definitely, there are different exoduses for them.



[color=crimson]2[/color] Different reasons for exodus: The then Israelites' reasons were to liberate them from Egyptian slavery, going to the promise land and finally to serve God.
The present Israelites' reasons were to have a home of their own where Jewish culture will be practised and liberate them from antisemitic treatment and persecution.



[color=crimson]3[/color] God gave the biblical Israelite the promise land while the UN interfered into the Jewish claim of palestine(seems to be part of the former ottoman empire then). Even if the Present Israel embarks on expansionism like it was in the 6 days war of June, 1967, The UN will still try to anchor them. Hence, the reason why they were told to release the areas of dispute claimed from the neighbouring arab nations.

[b]had you presented the map showing the territorial jurisdiction of the biblical Israelites and Israel didn't occupy the promised territory, we could then conclusively say YAWEH has failed in his promise.

This still is no defence to why Yahweh forgot his promise to Abraham.

Simkreative: On the last day
U will stand before your creator and account for every single word u wrote on dis thread

Macof, u're just carried away by the excitement of the knowledge u've accumulated.

But I av seen a better scholar who was transformed when he encountered the true light, His name is Paul of Tarsus

A great academia and graduate of Law (the ancient law ) and he was considered one of the hottest brain of his time

He persecuted the early Christians by killing dem, but later became a tool of honour.

Paul ended up writing 13 books and for 1,900yrs nw, the relevance's of those books are undeminishing.

So I tink u've been brainwashed by one of this evil western Authors.

Last Advice
Redefine Yourself to you 1st Love
Jesus Christ

Salom

Your long epistle means nothing. These are hard facts here either table a rebuttal or accept your Jesus is a fake and get lost

lepasharon: Early Christians sect from around 2nd century bc kind of like messianic Jews

Pls tell me more

GJames: Biogenesis talks about life generating from an already existing life.

illiterate, you just displaying how education in Nigeria is a failure as religion seems to be the only thing worth the nations attention

ArtanK: That's a possibility, who knows...

What's this? One minute you say original Jews are tanned/brown you see tanned and you drive it as possibility

Make up your mind

mazaje: It is mythology. . .It's no different from a christian that claimed he died went to heaven and saw his loved ones in white robes and floating in the clouds. . .What has the souls of ancestors protecting and guiding those that are alive got to do with reality?. . .Can it be objectively tested?. . .



There are dinosaur fossils available for all to see, micro evolution has been observed. . .Christians can't deny it, they deny macro evolution because it lacks credible evidence according to them, scientist insist that the principle guiding micro evolution is the same principle guiding macro evolution. . .




Full dinosaur fossils have been found like this one below. . .

https://www.staff.olympia.org/external/OHSLibrary/dino1.gif

Micor evolution have been observed, the principle of evolution has been used to make certain drugs, stars have been observed to be moving away from each other by space observatories etc. . .




I can not prove to you that Jesus is not presently in heaven siting on the right hand of god and guiding christians. .I can not also prove to you that the ancient Egyptian Pharos are not together with Ra Amun enjoying heavenly bliss. . .I don't have to bother with such mythologies. . .There is what we call reality. there is what we call mythology, fantasy and fiction. . .Egungun falls into the category of fiction and mythology. . .Even in science there is pseudo science and fringe science. . .

I never even mentioned egungun. Because doing that might seem too Yoruba-centric. But if u so interested in the technology of egungun I am nt the person to discuss that with. There are experts I could link you up with only if you are humble enough to actually take it serious and undergo your objective testing

is there evidence for planets outside our galaxy? that doesn't stop scientists from looking for them.
If scientists were like you they would have said "there's no evidence, it doesn't exist, this world we see with our eyes right around us is the only thing that exist"
science would be nothing today without search - which is among the baics of spirituality

The structure of mars was known to be made up of Metals, they named it after a Roman God of metals and wars

Helium was found to be the reason for the heat and colour of the sun they named it After the Greek God of sunlight

And you think ancient spiritualities got nothing to offer??

All that science would ever find evidence to, has been told by the ancients.

Even the far away milky way and Orion stars was known by the dogon people of Mali long before your evidence was found by science.

The name Orion was given by ancient greeks it wasn't science until modern scientists said they found evidence.

so why attack everything ancient when modern has never posed to prove ancient wrong??

Spirituality is a profound source of science bro, you cannot understand the universe without following the basics of spirituality


Btw my questions were; have you have seen a dinosaur fossil, have u ever observed a genus evolve? Have you ever observed a bang of photons?

You are basically believing what you have read but there's a reason you believe it isn't there?

Owoplenty: The poster should know that all these Ifa stuff are mere allegories and metaphors that only gives poetic meaning to yoruba traditions;and lack religious value.

True they are allegories that seek understanding and interpretations but many have turned it into religion.

@op where did you learn that Olokun means "divider of the sea"?

And by "omo ina joko ma j'erun" do you mean this as an Oriki for Orunmila or Olokun?

NeuroBoss: Okun(the sea) actually holds the key to all worldly treasures. Ever wondered why the most beautiful cities in each country of the world are port or water cities?
Ajé olókun mo to o wa o, wa bámisé.

Olokun is also the mother of Aje, Spirit of wealth.

GJames: If you know of a different theory about life's origin, why not share it.

The theory of the origin of life is Biogenesis, change in biomechanics of an organism is evolution

gabazin080: anybody here that says there's no God is a fool. though am not really a good Christian but there have been great philosophers who have said it, bt GOD prove himself to them and they belived. i will believe he doesnt exist if u can tell me how this earth came into existence, d secret holding d sky from falling even without pillars. the secret behind man's breath (mayb scientist too can do it) nd i will belive GOD doesnt exist

The bolded words are still why you are a Christian.
You are not a good Christian meaning you don't read your Bible
You are a liar, there are no known philosophers whom God proved himself to and believed
You are an uneducated and unintelligent fool

Get to work on this 3points and you would one day know that THERE IS NO GOD

texanomaly: Is Church Essential


This is Eeyore...

On request explanation

Sorry to come in like this
But how is the word pronounced exactly?

mazaje: Is the soil conscious the way a human being is?. . .Is a piece of rock which your dead body can eventually turn into self aware?. . .Is it alive?. . .Can it reason, think, or know that is a being separate from another being?. .When you say all things are conscious what do you mean?. . .

don't you get it? There are different types of consciousness, there is the consciousness in the soil, one in humans another in cats etc. even planets and stars are conscious

But we all don't have the same type consciousness even science knows that, that's why human consciousness is sometimes called sentience. there's the consciousness in various non-human animals which isn't like that in us. here's a drop: there's a different consciousness between humans like we all share 99% identical dna we are still different from each other so is our consciousness.

The allocation of our different consciousness is what we call natural selection.

for you Sentience is being confused as consciousness and no modern Philosopher would ever make such confusion. Sentience is only a branch of consciousness as such not everything is sentient by way of natural selection but everything is conscious

the problem with you is you think at death comes the end of consciousness when it is only sentience that dies (actually converts)...means we cannot feel- pleasure, pain, love, anger etc. we have no material character- greed, kindness, etc. we have no senses well at least hearing, taste, sight, smell. I wouldn't say touch.
consciousness lives on any where there's energy, and energy is everywhere

That is why I often laugh at Christians who say the creator who is supposed to be a spirit (what science calls energy) feels wrath, jealousy, love etc. when these things are strictly attributes of sentient beings.

non-sentient as I know can't reason but they can react and proact out of awareness of their environment

mazaje: The link it self specifically used the word maybe on the premise of the thesis leaving the entire hypothesis in the realm of assumption. . .I did not write it, the person that did clearly left the hypothesis in the realm of assumption, by the way as you noted it has nothing to do with death so I wonder why you brought it up. . .I have already given you the definition of human consciousness, if you want to go around talking about things that are off topic then go create a separate thread, this topic is about human consciousness and whether it survives when the human body dies. . .Again does human consciousnesses survive the death of the entire body?. ..

When we discuss human consciousness we have to bring in other types of consciousness to grasps even if just little on the concept of consciousness.
so don't tell us we are off topic, we are right on topic

mazaje: What am I to do with your Yoruba mythology?. . .Does human consciousness continue when you die?. . Will you be fully conscious when you die?. . .Where is the evidence for this?. . .

How is "Emi re ti re koja" mythology?? You don't understand simple terms don't make it mythology.

How some religionists say evolution and dinosaurs are mythology..how are you more different from Christians who condemn without understanding?

Where is the evidence for dinosaurs or evolution or the big bang but you consider it possible don't you? Have u observed a genus evolve? have u observed a bang of photons?? Have u seen a dinosaur fossil??

Use ur head and understand what folykaze and I are saying otherwise you might as well say There are no planets outside our galaxy because there's no evidence for it

Attitudes like yours is a disgrace to science

finofaya: Okay. Everything is conscious this very minute.

I'm not sure if you meant that both my phone as a whole is conscious, and that the atoms that make it up are also individually conscious.

I think you are conscious the same way I am, though we may not share the same identity. Our senses are mostly the same, and we both are self aware. We can think and read and write and all that.

You say the phone (or it's atoms?) are conscious on a different level. What are the features of consciousness at this level, and how are you able to identify such consciousness?

let's put it this way...what do you understand by the concept of consciousness?
If you consider your definition to relate to all things, then we on the same page, if not too bad

mazaje: If consiousness is a form of energy as you say and the body dies then the energy changes into something else that is not consiousness. . .just as when you die your body forms part of the soil which is not you as a human being. . .

It's impossible for your body to change to what is not conscious.
Because all things are conscious.

The moment you die u cease being a human being, you jst a dead body waiting for decomposition as your earlier sentient consciousness leaves your body

mazaje: Does consciousness survive bodily death?. . When you die the chemical reactions in your system breaks down into something else. Your body disintegrates and forms part of the soil for example, the energy is converted into something else that is totally different from you. . .Again does consciousness survive bodily death, that I believe is what this topic is all about. . .

Yes consciousness survives, there's a lot of energies reacting in our human body and life in general one of which is our individual consciousness which Yoruba call Ori, Igbo call chi, I hear the greeks called it Krestos.
what do you think happens to this consciousness when our human body converts to something else?

You think it just disappears into "nothing" right? Well we can argue nothing is a realm unseen.
Or you say it converts with the rest of our body by forming part of the soil?? Consciousness is not material/physical so this is out of the way

when we need that individual consciousness is let loose and returns to where it came

mazaje: It was those that thought about it's possibility that also brought us the idea of heaven, hell and reincarnation. . .How do I live when am dead?. . .Does consciousness survive bodily death?. . .

like those that thought about the possibility of vampires and superman brought up the ideas??

Come on, this isn't about heaven, I told you I don't believe in heaven or hell

finofaya: Everything has to be conscious?

Are they conscious right now? For example, this phone I'm typing with. Is the phone conscious, or are the atoms that make up the phone conscious? Is any of them conscious in the same way that I am?

Yes to all questions except the last.

Only humans are conscious like humans, only you is conscious like you, both of us don't share the same consciousness level per say.

The human consciousness is at the sentient level, your phone is not we could call that nano level

igbodefender: Your statement is correct. The Proto/Original/Aboriginal Bantus that started Bantu civilization by exporting aspects of their culture, knowledge and language to other Central/Southern African groups and largely assimilating with them is a race/ethnic group (The Igbos). Today what people call Bantu are the remnants/results of that cultural exchange all over Central and Southern Africa, numbering in the millions and covering entire countries. The present day Bantus are a language group that remains from that exchange, while the Igbos are the Proto Bantus. The Igbos are great!

Nawa o

Btw aren't you one of them that claims Igbos are Jews?