₦airaland Forum

bindex:
As for playing by god's rule all I have to say is god's rules or man's rules? You have no evidence at all to show that any god gave any law or rule to any man, all you have are men writing down rules and laws and saying that god told them to write it. What is your basis for believing that the bible is the word of god and not the hindu text? is it because you were brought up in a culture that accepts the bible as the word of god?

If he was born into a muslim family I believe that he will be here telling us how the koran is the word of god. . . . .

I am really sorry to disappoint , Its a very long story and I  can't share all of it now, my encounter with the people in thailand made me to re-examine my beliefs, question it and find out how true it is. From then on I came to understand that religion is not something we come to accept based on evidence or through verifiable arguments, its something that our culture and society inculcates in us since when we are children and it becomes a part of us  as we grow,this culture later becomes our ultimate truth because our daily lives revolve around it and it is been reenforced by the beliefs of others around us. Once that religion which I call a culture becomes a part of us then we always look for a way to justify it even when there are so many evidence to the contrary, most people believe in god or a particular religion because they some how find themselves involved in a group that promotes the idea and they are conditioned to believe in it even when most of its assertions are false( creation myths and garden of eden myth). It's later on when their subconscious nags them that it's BS, they start looking for evidence to support the notion even if it means lying to themselves(apologist like creation scientist or the liars called answers in genesis and other islamic liars that are out there defending the koran even when they know they are lying to themselves)

I left christainty because I came to realize that most of its stories are not true.Why should I accept the stories that I know are not true just because some people that I do not know said it happened when I know it did not. The universe was not created in seven days, there was never a flood that wiped out the whole on humanity, a man can not divide the sea with a stick, sticks do not turn into snakes if egyptians magicains can turn their sticks into snakes during the time of moses then they should be able to do it now. Why is it that egyptian magicians can not do all these thing now? donkeys do not talk, manna does not fall from heaven, a person can not survive inside a fish for 3 days. A person can not stop the earth from rotating, the rainbow is not a convenant between man and any god, stars can not fight along side human beings. Why is it that all these things only happen in the past when men were primitive and are not happening now? They tell us to accept these things based on faith but we know that faith is a device used by those who can't bear the thought that what they believe in is not so. It gives false assurance. It offers a religious placebo to those who are sick with a religious illness because at some level everyone realizes that believing on faith means nothing more than believing it because you have an emotional bias for believing itand they also realize that wanting to believe that something is true is in no way evidence for and doesn't even have any logical relationship to whether that thing is actually true. They know that they are lying and they tell us that faith is a virture so we should have faith. I decided to tell my self the truth and accept reality not some feel good stories, myths, fiction and thoughts of unknown people which have been demonstrated to be false over and over again.

I lef christianity because if there truly is a god as described in the bible and by some christians then there will be no need for people to speak for him at all, christians will be performing magic all over the place as promised by jesus and people will come to know about there god but that is not the case. The fact that christians do not agree on the basic nature of the god of the bible alone tells you that it is all a man made sham like everything else. There are over 30,000 different sects of christianity and each of them aligns with the personal interpretation and view of the bible of the members within the sect. I read the history of christainty and the bible(islam and the koran) and came to know that like every other thing religion is man made there is nothing supernatural about(  most supernatural beliefs in the past like earth quake, rainbow and lighting have been shown to be natural events) it and all its assertions are false as far as I know. We are told by religion that we have a soul that out lives us but science has shown that it is all a lie. I will rather believe in reality than feel good myths and lies.

KunleOshob:
Maybe Mazaje as repented and decided to embrace christianity again But on a more serious note mazaje and other atheists on this forum you guys honestly need to come to know christ and his true gospel, most of what is being preached out there is adulteratd and can at bbest be called doctrines of men

It has always been the gospel of men, the stories about jesus were written not by jesus or people that knew him but by people who lived long after he died, the gospels were written about 50-70 years after the death of jesus not by people who claim to have meet him but by unknown people, men(the catholic chruch through apostolic tradition) decided to link the unanimous writtings about jesus with the names of his diciples to give them more credibility. Men put the bible together through contensious votes, invented all the doctorines and made changes to some. Men always claim to know the mind of the god they are talking about and what he wants of people and speak for him and defend him all the time. It has always being about men and that is how it will always be.

I am quite certain if you know and understand what christ is all about you would find him faultless and desire to know him better. The only problem is that the truth as been corrupted by mere men for the sake of their own greed and ego.

Jesus might have been a good person but I doubt if he knows that he will one day be turned into a god by his followers. . . .

skydancer:
If you learnt science, you will have known that we start first with assumption, believing that a particular things is the cause of something. It is the same with God. I am talking of a supreme being who created the Universe. As I said can you explain how one is raised to death in the name of God or how a lame starts to walk by simple prayers.

Do you really have any evidence for this? I will like you to give me just one example of a person that was confirmed dead for 2 or 3 days and was later been raised from the dead through prayers?

huxley:
Yes, Mazeje, we would like to know when the transition happen and what pursauded you to make the conversion.

I was a Christian back In 2006 when I joined nairaland. My various travels around the world was what first lead me to begin to question my faith. I was born into a muslim family but my dad allowed my mum to practice her christian religion while they still remained married. When my dad died the me and my siblings had to become very very conservative christians, I became a complete christian at the age of 13 (actually I was a closet christian ). My dad was not a serious muslim at all so we were just muslims in name only because my mum and her relatives used to take us to church and teach us about christianity but he never objected. . .in fact he didn't even mind at all. He just did not care about Islam or any religion at all. he just made sure that we knew the tenets of Islam and learn how to read the koran and pray thats all nothing more because he didn't care at all.

My travels around the world was what opened my eyes to the institution called religion and faith. Those travels really showed me how the entire system works and how people turn culture, tradition and societal acceptance into facts and realities even if they are false and leads to their own detriment. I Visited Thailand and Singapore in october back 2006 and I saw the other side of the world that I never knew existed. My room mate at that time who is from Thailand took me there. While we were there we went to a small village about 200-km away from Bangkok for the burial of his uncle that passed away. While we were there I moved away and went to a corner and allowed them to continue their burial ritual. They burned incense chanted and did all their Buddhist incantations while I was watching from a distance. Deep inside my mind I was really feeling sorry and bad for them for wasting their time praying for some one that was already in hell because I thought that since the person they were about to bury refused to accept Jesus as his lord and savior he was doomed eternally. I really felt bad for them because I just felt they were doing a frivolous exercise.

One of them then walked up to me just said hi in their language shook my hand and left. . .when he saw me and my friend together he quickly walked up to us and asked my friend to tell him how happy he is to see me, he asked what brought me to thailand and most especially to their little village and I told him. My friend then became our translator. He told me about the guy that passed away and how great he was, he said he touched the lives of most of the people in the village that is why they decided to bury him instead of cremating him. He asked me if we bury our dead or cremate them and I told him we bury our dead, then he asked me what I believed in and I told him that I am a christian, and he replied by asking me what I meant by that. I didn't even know how to answer so I just repeated that I was a christian, he then asked me if christianity involves ancestral worship. I was kind of pissed at the questions he was asking me so I asked my friend if the guy was serious at all with the type of questions he was asking me and my friend said that he was, I laughed and told my friend if its true that the man does not know any thing about christianity and he said yes. I still did not believe, so I just told my friend to tell him, and my friend told me that he knows very little about christianity all he knows is that we believe in a man named Jesus and thats all he knows. It was then that I realized that I and my friend have never really talked about religion at all. So I told him to tell the man that I believe in Jesus Christ the son of God who came to die for the sins of all mankind and lead them into salvation according to God's plan, his face was indifferent when my friend told him and he asked me if Jesus is an ancestor of mine. I laughed because I still could not believe what I was hearing.

I didn't know what to tell him, I just said that Jesus is the son of God, not my ancestor, two other Buddhist monks also came along and we talked then I truly realized that this guys were truly serious because they have never heard the name Jesus in their lives at all, I realized that I was the first person to tell them about Jesus. I was really terrified. The year 2006 and here are people that have never heard the name Jesus in their entire lives and these are men that were well into their 40's and 50's. I just could not believe it, They had their own scriptures that teaches them everything about life, their realities coincides with everything that is written in their own scriptures, they had their own beliefs and their entire lives revolves around those set of beliefs just like ours. Jesus, the holy spirit or the God that I believed in had no role to play in their lives at all and that did not affect their lives in any negative way at all. They were leading normal lives like us, they had their own challenges and everything but the fact that most of them have never had the name Jesus talk less of knowing anything about christianity continued to hunt me. I could not believe it. I thought about how it will be very unfair to them if they die and go to hell because the bible says that Jesus is the only way to salvation and no one can go to God except through him. Since they do not believe in Jesus I believed they were all doomed, I could not accept it and I started to really question the whole thing from then on. . . . . . . . . .(will continue later on)

OLAADEGBU:
@mazaje,

Instead of regurgitating the objections of pastor AIO who only limited his objection to the first video clip, why don't you carry out your own independent research and start by watching all the video clips to their conclusion and then see whether those so called objections have not been addressed before you come here to shoot at your foot.

I watched the whole video they surely entertained me because they made me laugh. . . . those guys are truly deluded that's all I know. . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
I wonder what you were laughing at.   Do you care to share it with us?  If you watched the clip did you understand what was said?  If so, then be kind enough to share your objections with us, at least we will know that you know what you are talking about.  Remember that you cannot think crooked and walk straight.

The pathetic and lying model they used assumes a constant population growth. This is a very false assumption because it doesn't take into account famine, war, plague, etc. What kind of model did they use that does not take into consideration things like death rate, technological innovations, limited space and limited resources? It also doesn't take into account the period of time before agricultural advancements were not as they are now when population growth would have been extremely low. . . . . . . There entire premise is a birth rate of 2.5 per family where did they get that from? . . . . . They both talked about the population starting from Noah and his family through inbreeding but we know that inbreeding ACTUALLY reduces population, so where did they get those numbers from? How did they automatically assume that every human that was born reached breeding age, was fertile and capable of giving birth or fathering a child, survived childbirth, their children survived, and no-one ever dies? How does the the lying model they used fit in with what we now know about disease and other stuffs?

The model they used doesn't even match up with what the bible even says at all. If the flood happened in 2350BC as they claim and the mythical exodus from egypt took place on 1446BC there wouldn't have been 600,000 people alive for Moses to lead according to their own theory. There would have only been  less than 70,000 or there about based on their own theory. . . . . . .So which is it, are they the ones that are lying or is it the bible that they are trying to advance that is lying if you are to apply their own model?

These guys are completely deluded 

OLAADEGBU:
@Pastor AIO,

Only if you had watched all the parts before you jumped to your conclusion you would have realised that all your objections had been taken into consideration.

Here are some more parts of the programme.

Earth's Population refutes evolution (continuation)

[flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bY3c4NXPiZ4&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash][flash=400,300]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31t1C8K1r24&hl=en&fs=1&[/flash]

As you could see in the presentation (part 1 of Crunch the numbers), where real scientists have given us the facts of how the earth's population proves the accuracy of the Bible's account in the book of Genesis.

OLAADEGBU When will you and your lying pseudo scientist stop lying for jesus?. . . . I laughed so hard at the outright stupidity and lies of this two pathetic goons up there they CLEARLY DO NOT KNOW what they are talking about. . . .

muhsin:
@Mazare,

What crap are you saying?

If you can't answer the OP, better keep quiet. Olabowale has his try.

Will you shut up and be quite. . .Mahauka chi kawai. . . .What I am saying is that will you deluded people ever think for yourselves? Why accept the lies, myths and fairy tales of deluded arabs that lived long ago who though that a man once divided the moon into two and made it bow down to him?. . . dukan ku a zare ku ke. . .mahaukata. . . .

muhsin:
There is only ONE true God.

That ONE true God did it.

Can you tell us how exactly allah created the universe from nothing?. . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
When did you start commenting on your own thoughts.

I started doing that long before you were born

Who said that nothing ca create itself and that God created Himself? If you cannot comprehend what I wrote there I wonder how you think I contradicted myself. The saying that you can't think crooked and walk straight comes to mind.

Going by your own words. . . this is what you said about the universe

"Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work."  This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down.  The universe as a whole is losing energy.  In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down." 

If this is true then your god can not be eternal based on the 2nd law of thermodynamics because the bible says that your also looses considerable amount of energy. . .it is written in the bible that your god rested for a whole day after creating the world meaning he lost considerable amount of energy there by showing that he is not eternal according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. . . . .

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death."

Same applies to your imaginary deity. . . . .

I know that website is the atheists' nightmare, all you need to do is to google it up and see whether you will be able to find it there. Besides, try to understand the points raised before you decide criticise or refute.

Atheist nightmare you call it . . . that is correct only in your dreams and in your deluded imaginations as usual. . . .

Wikipedia says that other creationist have criticized Ham(the owner of AIG) his methods and works as deliberately misleading his reader on science and other stuffs. . .From wikipedia

]Ham's beliefs and tactics have also been criticized by other Christians. Answers in Creation, an Old Earth creationist website, has called Ham willfully ignorant of evidence for an old earth and said he "deliberately misleads" his audiences on matters of both science and theology.[87]

So there you have it, other fellow creationist KNOW that ham is disingenuous and misleads people when it comes not only to science but also theology. . . as pointed out by other christians. . . .

@olabowale

Will you please SHUT UP! What is all this nonsense you have written? When will you learn to think for your self instead of blindly following the writings, fantasies and lies of ancient arab liars?

jagunlabi:
1)If something cannot create itself,and if nothing can create something,who or what created the abrahamic god then?How did he come to be,to existence?And from where did he get all the templates he used to create the things in the universe?From whence came his knowledge?Or this abrahamic god something created himself?If that is what you are claiming then you have just contradicted yourself,have you not?
2)If the universe does have a creator,why does it have to be the god of those people you mentioned?Apart from the fact that YOU only read THAT from a book called the bible,what other solid, empirical proof do you have to back your claim that the abrahamic god created the universe?
Waiting for your response.

My thoughts exactly, OLAADEGBU keeps bringing this moot point that nothing can create it self but suddenly says that his god created himself, how contradictory can one be. . . . . .

OLAADEGBU:
2. The univese has always existed:  Lets go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics that basically teaches that "the whole universe is losing usable energy for doing usable work."  This means that the usable energy in this universe is wearing down.  The universe as a whole is losing energy.  In other words, molecules as a whole are slowing down.

Therefore, if this universe was eternal we will be in what is called a "virtual heat death."  This means that there will be virtually no molecular movement.  Everything would have lost its available heat energy for doing work.  Therefore, the universe cannot be eternal, it must have had a beginning.  The theory that the universe has always existed or is eternal has to be false based on the law of science and logic, another speculation gone with the air.  This leaves us with only one possiblility based on science.

Where did you get this from? The discredited website called answers in genesis?

https://zombietime.com/mohammed_image_archive/modern_satires/drawing.JPG

Here is mohammed recieving inspiration from the imaginary allah and penning it down. . . . .Ok mohammed write says allah. . ."there is no god but allah and you (mohammed) is his last prophet" any body that does not believe that will rot in hell forever. . . . allah also told mohammed to tell his followers to kill any body that does not believe in all his lies. . . .

GEW:
there definately are some angry with God and christian people

Same discredited drivel. . .when christian show moslems the lie and inconsistencies that is islam they call it sharing the good news. When atheist show christians the inconsistencies and lies that is christainity christians cry and say that atheist are angry with their imaginary yahweh. . . funny people. . . .

Chrisbenogor:
And the christian throws the first insult, you are a disgrace to humanity.

You are lucky insults is the only thing he has to throw at you. . . his wannabe ancestors like moses, elijah, joshua ect do not thorw insults at people that do not agree with them with it comes to belief in the imaginary yahweh. . .they kill them off. . . .

skydancer:
I believe every religion worships either the true God or the Devil. There is nothing like which of the gods. Idols are all tools of the devil.

what is the devil? can you show us where he is or where he resides so that we can pay him a visit?

skydancer:
I have really begun to think. All these people that claim they do not believe in God. Is it madness or something close?

D you know what is madness really is? madness is the believe in the idea that has been propagated by medieval men that an all powerful deity with human attributes created the universe and made the earth his most special creation. . . the universe as it it show that that hypothesis is a big lie. . . . madness is when people believe in the idea that there is a part of human consciousness that survives bodily death because some unknown people wrote about it. . . . .madness is when people believe that sin came into the world because some jewish deity allowed two people that do not have the knowledge of good and evil or right and wrong to be deceived by his arch enemy into eating from a tree that contains knowledge of good and evil. . madness is believing that this same god decided to come into the world  and die for the sins of humans in other to save them from himself. This deity who is 3 but at the same time one came to the earth in the form of a human being even when he doesn't need to because he has been every where with his chosen men addressing them through public speeches, eating their meal sewing cloths for them and leading them in battles against their enemies., but this same deity came and spent some time on earth, told the people around him that he came to SAVE THE JEWS ONLY. Did not leave any writing of his own was said to do so many incredible things(But was NOT mentioned at all by his contemporaries) died and was resurrected and also appeared to his followers who did not write about it until about 50-70 years after his death. . . . this is what is called MADNESS. . . .

How can one prove that there is no existence of any supreme force

.

How about absence of evidence is evidence enough?

If there is one who claims so, is he so wise that he can with facts, nullify the beliefs of his forefathers. Anyway, I have heard some people actually denounced the existence of God or supreme forces but later changed their views after one thing or the other happened to them. That you cannot understand something is not the reason you should not believe it.

I bet u do not understand islam or hinduism but you still disbelieve them no? By the way we very much understand ALL the theistic arguments and ridiculous hypothesis. . . .

Proclaiming yourself an atheist even exposes your narrow-mindedness. Science itself has even accepted the existence of an unkown supernatural force that creates.

Science is the only thing that continues to show that all the theistic hypothesis are all LIES. . . . . we can begin with the soul. . . science has shown that the soul is only an imagination and it does not exist. . . . .

Prizm:
3) Most atheists that I have discussed with do not have any positive case to make for atheism. It seems to me that if a person cannot conclusively prove God's non-existence, or even intelligently refute sound arguments for a God, such a person should better reclassify him/herself as an agnostics since he/she is taking the position that God's existence is not readily evident or apparent to him/her. But it does look as if atheism has been redefined by these present day 'New Atheists" to be some convenient lack of belief in a God. But this definition is self-serving. If someone wants to call him/herself an atheist, and deigns to engage in any reasonable discussion or debate on the existence or non-existence of a God, he/she has to provide good and convincing argument why we should think that a God does not exist. After all, that is the same burden that a theist in any such discussions is faced with : namely to provide good and convincing evidence why anyone should think that a God does exist.

Here is one positive case for atheism if there is a god then pls show us where he is. . . . . unsubstatianed claims and hypothesis WILL NOT do. . . if you claim that there is a god then let us know where he is and we will forever be quite. . . if there is a god you will not be here telling us about his existence he will do it himself if he truly wants people to know about his existence. . no deity that truly want people to know about his existence will leave it unto other people to keep on throwing unsubstatiated and ridiculous theories about him/her. The deity will end the chase and do it him/herself because humans have completedly failed in that regard. . . . .

4) For many theists, their belief in God is not anchored on just reasoning and argumentation alone. There is sometimes a deep and inward personal experience that affirms their implicit belief in God. It is very much like the inward and personal conviction and experience of the external world which cannot be scientifically or empirically proven. So while argumentation based on sound and logical inferences is good, for a theist that is not the entire gamut of inferences available. One has to presuppose atheism for example, to deny the veridical nature of certain judgments and presuppositions which human beings accept and uphold rationally but which are not amenable to the scientific process.

The question now is whose theism is right? There are different types of theism and all are mutually exclusive and very different from each other. . . . personal experience does not mean anything what makes the christian personal experience better or more real than that of a moslem who claims like christians to hear the voice of allah or see some islamic gin? what makes the christian personal experience better or more real that that of the hindu magician who uses his hindu books to "cast" spells?

The Universe is not eternal--by which we mean that it began to exist a finite time in the past. For a long time, the view in academia was that the universe is eternal, but that view is no longer currently held by any serious person who has bothered to investigate or read up on the issue. There are sound philosophical as well as scientific reasons to believe that the universe was not infinitely pre-existent, but that it came into being a finite time in the past. The Standard Model of the Big Bang - whose predictions have been confirmed over and over has put a nail in the coffin of speculations to the contrary.

Even if we are to believe that the universe began with the big bang you are yet to show that the deity you subscribed to is the force behind the bigbang. . . you have to provide evidence for this, unsubstantiated claims will not do. . . scientist have explained the big bang and your god or any other deity DOES NOT HAVE A ROLE to play in their any of their explanations at all. . . .

illusion2:
@Deep Sight nice try,
Its refreshing to have some deep logical discussion devoid of curses,insults & innuendos.

I'll be patiently waiting for your update. . . . . .[sup[b]]searching for my o'level further maths textbooks [/b] [/sup]

You better go and get it since we have people like william craig that are trying to prove the resurection of jesus christ with mathematical formulars. . . . .

Krayola2:
haha. That book only barely made it into the canon, now it is believed to be the fate of the universe. Kinda scary how these things evolve. . .

I just can't understand how people believe all these nonsense? People truly believe all these things like the stars falling down into the earth, flying horses, city of gold and daimonds with some specifice dimensions decending from the sky is really going to happen etc. . . its really crazy. . . . if there is anything that disproves the christian religion and exposes it to be a sham then that thing is the book of revelation. . . . the book specifically talks about the jews and their twelve tribes ONLY. it does not even mention the gentiles at all so i wonder why the put it inside the cannonn in the first place. . . . . . .

If Paul was here what would he say. . . " I CREATED A MONSTER !!!

Paul has his own outlandish imaginations and fantasies. . .he said he went to some seven clouds or something. . . he saw and heard things only him could see and hear even when he was with others

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;  
Rev 6:13   And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.  
Rev 6:14   And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  
Rev 6:15   And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;  
Rev 6:16   And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17   For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?  

Will all these incredible event all take place during the rapture  too? . Other parts of revelation also talk about the writer steping on the stars that have fallen from the sky as if the stars were some kind of little bulbs hanging in the sky(thats actually what the writer of revelation believed ).

The writers of revelation i must admit has a very strong sense of imagination and fantasy. . . . . .he imagined people communicating with mountians and rocks  (why do christians mock moslems when moslems say that during their own end of the world as described in the koran men will speak or will be able to communicate with trees? )

Krayola2:
haha. I agree with u. I was just trying to do a Tudor impersonation.

The God of religion is as real as Cinderella.

Hahaha. . . my man Tudor is really like that . Ride on. . . . .

Krayola2:
Too many leaps in this argument. we can't accept shit that doesn't make sense. What u think this is, the village square?  

U can't prove shit. .  scientists and all sorts of nerds have tried for centuries. . . it ain't gonna happen.

want proof that God, if he does exist, does not give a flyin fukc about us?  look at all em starvin kids dyin of kwashiokor.

If God exists and i ever catch him I'll spit on him for lettin those kids have to live in his messed up creation. Incompetent asshole that he is!!

You are making the mistake of assuming that the force behind the universe( thats is if there is any such thing) is the same as described by man made religions. . . . . The fact is that is false. . .there is NO reason to believe that the force behind the universe(if any such thing exist) is anything close to how it is being described or portrayed by man made religions. . . . all man made religions are just baseless assertions and hypothesis that only show the thoughts, expressions, ideas and beliefs of men as to how the think or assume the world or universe should behave based on a set of cultures, ideas and tradition. . .

Deep Sight:
Mantraa - you are getting brilliant!!!! But -

We know that the Universe is not eternal because it is expanding. That much is verified. Since it is expanding, if you follow the process backward you will find that you will see a smaller and smaller universe until you arrive at a point in the distant past where it was nothing more than a single point. So there - it started at some point - and this reasoning remains intact even if applied to the existence of any other universes. Nevertheless, since the existence of other Universes will at this point be speculation, let us confine our discussion to this universe, which we are certain had a beginning. You see, the continuous expansion of the universe is what led some scientists to initiate the big bang theory - because at some point. that expansion must have started. And the whole point of my 0 + 0 = 0 equation is to prove that it could not have started out of nothing - that something started it.

The expansion of the universe only shows that the universe BEGAN to expand at some point not that it is not eternal. . . . . . .

Jagoon:
@mazaje
If as intelligent and knowledgeable we humans popurtably are we can not comprehend the make up of this planet talkless of the universe, it only makes sense it was put together by a far more intelligent being [God] as it is quite evident given the complexity of everything that exists, there must be an infinitely advanced designer/maker aka creator.

On what basis did you come to the conclusion that there is a more intelligent being responsible for the existence of everything? Even if we agree that there is such a being how does that being or force come close to any of the gods described by all the man made religions and their various hypothesis? The universe as it is makes all the gods of man made religions look completely insignificant. . . .The question now is what exactly do you mean by god? if you ask 20 different people what god is you will get 40 different answers. . . .

Everyone can understand the term "God", but when it gets down to what it is exactly and what they mean by that term the descriptions just end up as vague and arbitrary gibberish.

Deep Sight:
@ Tudor, Mazaje - Very good!

We are now breaking out of the first level of the discussion. Let me just add for emphasis before going forward that the reason it was important to accept that 0 + 0 = 0 in all circumstances is so that we appreciate that once we have an element ("1" or anything that exists at all in any form., then it could not have come out of the zero quatity. There must be the intervention of a substantive element to move from zero to something ("1"

OK. . . . . . .

Therefore: 0 + 1 = 1. Agreed?

If you accept the above equation, you accept that the world, universe, existence, whatever you call it - came not from the zero element, but from something. There needed to be an intervention in the zero element by 1 (That is to say: 0 + 1 = 1).

Thus the premise is; something caused the universe. Agreed?

On what basis did you come to the conclusion that something caused the universe? How do you know that the universe is not eternal and uncreated(we know very little about the universe for now)? If god or what ever you chose to call the element or force which you believe is behind the existence or causation of universe is uncreated then that means that there are exceptions to your equation. . . why not accept that the universe is uncreated and is eternal since your believe that there are some exceptions to the first cause argument?

Deep Sight:
@ tudor, mazaje, would you like to respond directly to this rationale on the zero quantity above.

Yes for the sake of this discussion i will accept that 0 + 0 = 0 every where. . . .

@ mazaje - i am not a slavish adherent of anything fed to me by any one. You should have noticed that by now. It took me many years to arrive at my conclusions trust me. In the past i have been an Anglican, Jehovah's Witness, Rosicrucian, considered Islam, and almost Crossbearer. I have read the bible, the quoran, the grail message, and many Buddhist, Taoist, shintoist, and even hindu philosophies because i am a SEEKER. So don't worry, lets just reason along little by little, we will get there,

OK. . .pls go ahead and make your point. . . . .

Deep Sight:
Thus even if the dubious principle that physical laws change can be accepted, once we speak of the zero quantity, there is quite simply nothing to change. Not in any circumstance.

So yes - 0 + 0 = 0. Everywhere. Agreed?

What makes it dubious? There is no reason at all to believe that the universe must behave like the human society. The universe is what it is and we have no reason to believe that it must behave like the human society or the planet in which we live in after all the planet in which we live in is just like a tea spoon full out of an ocean compared to the rest of the universe as a whole. . . . . . . .The laws of physics that applies here must not necessarily apply in other parts of the universe. . no reason to believe other wise. . . . .  

@ Chrisbenogor - In my earlier post i defined the God i am speaking of. The Uncaused Cause. I also specifically described Him as a Conscious & Intelligent Supernatural Being responsible for the creation of all that exists.

When will you guys stop making all these unsubtantiated claims ?. . .did any god tell you this him/her self or are you just regurgitating the ideas/thoughts that others before you have been saying all along with out any evidence at all to back up this claim?

[quote author=Tudór link=topic=315294.msg4427966#msg4427966 date=1251311356]@Deep sight.
Slow your roll. . . .lets first establish that 0 + 0 = 0 all over the universe then we can go ahead. . .[/quote]He has already made an exception for the planet in which we live in so lets see how he carries on. . . . fire on deep sight. . . .

posakosa:
@ Deep Sight my question to you is: how did that 1 come into existence ?

My thoughts exactly. . .where and how did the 1 come into play. . . .