₦airaland Forum

Obalufon,
I read the screenshots you posted on Frobenius journal. You keep saying he did not ascribe similarity or any transcontinental contact between Yoruba and North Africa. He did not have to. His audience can make up their own conclusions based on all the artifacts and evidences of shared antiquities that his research uprooted and tabled before us. Remember that his initial discovery in Ife were accidental. So his discoveries were not total, not even after a return trip.

Beside, his own native land of Germany were at this point in its political history competing with other Europeans for superiority and dominance of world order, there is no way Frobenius could have attributed Yoruba as the civilization that seeded Europe. They were comfortable accepting Arabized Arab as contributors to their civilization but the thought of Europe acquiring knowledge from a Negro people would be unthinkable, no matter how much discovery to say Babylon was in IleIfe.

In fact, the articles Olu and I posted yesterday pointing to Idris and sand divination contained similar sentiments. European scholars admit geomancy came from Arabs and Hebrews but went on to also say it trickled down to Yoruba's IFA. They did not care to understand what IFA is and to accept, even if they studied and understood it, that their geomancy was birthed by Alraml, which itself was birthed by Kaballah, and which was seeded by IFA.

Let's dig into our own history truthfuly and not introduce Eurocentric and Arab-centric biases and stereotypes to dismiss cogent and valid points for introducing deeper knowledge.

0balufonlll:
1. It is a fact. There is Odu Imole; Odu Christian & Odu of Atlantic Slave trade. My theory is, they were later added to the parts of Ifa considering their positions towards the end of Odu arrangements.

2. I’m not sure I get this question.

3. I do not know what your contextual usage of the terminology ‘Ifa’ is. But my usage of it in the post you quoted in connection to ‘stages & collapsed’ referred to the fact that agbigba, erindinlogun, ikin, opele etc have different methodologies & processes yet they are all regarded as ‘Ifa’. Ifa is not restricted to Orunmila’s Ikin & the latter introduction of Opele, Ifa is all local divination system exclusive of abamoda related divinations.

Obalufon,
You have vast knowledge! The purpose here whether on this thread or any other dealing on subject of Yoruba is to bring out and share knowledge on the quest to learn and be enlightened. I wish you will ignore the side distractions, the offensive jabs and contribute in truth to the objective of Yoruba superiority, particularly in this age where threads are visible across the globe and you never know who will gain from what you share or how it might bring a breakthrough in their own quest.


Going from your response,
1a - So these arrangements that added the new Odus would have happened to accommodate new experiences that coincided with Islam, Slave Trade, Christianity in the socio-political space of Yorubaland. How are these determinations made on what is a significant marker to add and what to exclude in their relevance to divination and IFA spirituality? Unless they serve historical purpose, I dont see the spiritual relevance of adding an Odu for Islam or Christianity but I do understand how that of human migration as happened in case of slavery would be a siginifacnt factor for both divination and historical. This is not my wisdom, I defer to the wise ones and the ancestors who made these decisions, I'm only curious.

1b - My thoughts are that these additions are markers for incidences in Arabia in the last days of
departure, and are not any recent additions to accommodate occurrences in West African space. There was a clash of civilization with Christianity, with Islam, and enslavement and migration. The Odus are footprints for events in Afroasia, not in West Africa.



2 and 3 are overlaps and you answered it.
The protocol of divination itself is standard and remains sacred but the tools for casting differ. The different methods is what we are seeing in the example with Alraml using sand or Madgascar where its called Sikidy. Origin of IFA is in Afroasia and began with Noah, which preceded the Abrahamic religions. As the practice passes from generation to generation the sacredness remains the same and central but the formalities morphed. IFA itself is the backbone of sovereingty and civilizations and we can only change the tools and means but we will not succeed in shutting out IFA, impossible because it is the essence of Cosmos we live in and the secret of Sovereignties that govern the world order. The Urim of Kaballah, the Alraml of Islam are Orunmila of IFA. Im sure you have seen where muslims write this after mentioning Allah...(swt). The Taala of Judaism is the Wa Ta'ala of Islam (written swt but means Subhana Wa Taala)...and is the Tala that is used in Obatala in Yoruba.

I have listened to people say what is common in our language and Arab is borrowings that filtered in through Islam and in traction from the Muslims to our North, particulalry from Hausaland. For that reason I went and lived four years in Hausaland and immersed myself in the culture. Yoruba donated to Islam, not the other way around, but Yoruba could not have influenced Arab in the way it did unless both were at one point collocator in same region and same culture. The presence of Arab traders in Oyo and elsewhere in Yorubaland is nopt signioficant to the scale of cultural and language contact that I mean here.

There is no denying the presence of Yoruba civilization in Afroasia. For me, the quest is where these Yorubas originated from, is it in the IleIfe of WesrtAfrica or the Nineveh of Afroasia?



If this appear disointed Im writing and doing other things, and its why it took long to complete . I can clarify any points thats not clear.

Olu317:
You see, most of our people ,who are lettered based most of their hypothesis on assumption , and when they see some glaring facts, they tend to turn away their eyes from it.

I am tempted to believed with evidence before me that the Yorubas were the ones that took that Knowledge of divination to North Africa, because Yorubas had at one time or the other also lived in North Africa considering, the similarity with names of Oracular form divination and not Arabs didn't use such name to identify with sand divination.

Why do I believed Yoruba were the ones that took the knowledge to North Africa? This is evident in Yoruba patterns of ancient structure, water system, drums etc ,when they arrived in Yoruba land of today where they met NOK culture and pushed it away.



Picture: Ox
Associations: All, elk, elephant
Sound: a (ah), e (eh)
Ancient Name: al or el
Modern Name: aleph
Modern Form: א
Meaning: strong, power, leader

Similaritiy
Yoruba
Sound : a(ah)
Meaning : Alè/ lè = strong/powerful/
Alagbara–/ Al– agbara= powerful/ strong

Example 1(statement) : Ègùngùn é lè (His bone is strong/ He has a strong bone)
Example 2( simile): Alè bì Ajèrè: (strong like/as Ajèrè)

It is disheartening seeing some people that claimed Yoruba's language's knowledge yet with no knowledge of the yoruba and the world beyond them.


Thanks.

Thanks Olu.

1 - I always maintain that culturally Yoruba does not have a religion. What we have and synonymous with Yoruba is spirituality. Religion, of any form, were brought into us by foreigners and we adopted and Yorubanized them. If we had a religion it would not have been possible for Islam or Christianity to take foothold without a war and bloodshed, but we have no record of religious war in Yoruba history...Thank God, and may it continue to be the case, Ase Edumare!

2 - The two identifiable forms of divination in Yorubaland are IFA and Al Raml, they are similar, but not same and will never be same.
In any form, religious divination is esoteric. Notice I said religious and not spiritual. The esoteric angle of Judaism is Kaballah and the esoteric Islam is Sufi.

I studied Sufism and I'm initiated into Sufism. In fact my initiation was conducted by the direct descendant and head of of the Silsila (genealogy) of my Sufi Order. A very rare privilege! Initiations are often conducted by guides and teachers, not the seed of the genealogy. This was possible because my guides found me far advanced in the principles that he at first thought I lied when I said I have never been a Sufi, and he wondered how I came about the knowledge in my spirit. There are so many rites in Sufism that's a cross between Yoruba belief system and Kaballah. I don't want to describe too much of it but there is a ritual that opens the spirit and it is the rite of the crossroads. This is where the Trinity and Cross of Christianity came from. In Yoruba this is the rite of Esu.

When it comes to religious divination or religious esoterism their mother is Kaballah, where Urim and Thummim came from. In Kaballah there 400 deities, 200 ascending, 200 descending. In order to hide its roots and not invite too much probing they gave it a name and call it Jacob's ladder! In truth, this is the 401 gods of IleIfe. 200 up, 200 down, plus Ooni Adimula. Up you have Orunmila, down you have Irunmole.

While Kaballah is the mother of all divinations in religious esoterism, IFA is the father of all divination in the universe, religious or not. IFA is the seed out of which every other divination principle emerged and spread. Out of IFA certain philosophies were shaped into DOCTRINES and it is with these doctrines that civilizations were established and propagated.




On Yoruba spoken words....SOUND is the character and attitude of Yoruba language. Parrot can make intelligible sounds that is interpretable, because it emits sound. Drums utter sounds that produce words and speak to us with information. Without SOUNDS Yoruba language and tongue has no character and is open to misinterpretation and mis-classification.

Olu,
If you don't mind me adding a little more to that to further support your point.


http://www.rybn.org/ANTI/ADMXI/documentation/ALGORITHM_DOCUMENTATION/GPS-MANTIC/GEOMANCY/PAPERS/1980_Stephen_Skinner_-_Terrestrial_Astrology_Divination_Geomancy.pdf


Few excerpts from pages 20 to 28

So from Idris/Hermes Trismegistus the chain of
tradition passes to the elusive 'Tum-Tum'. Tum-Tum
appears to belong to legend rather than history, although
as we have seen his name may be a corruption of an actual
personage, perhaps Ptolemy, and he may not necessarily
come from India. For Islam, India had the same aura of
mystery as Egypt has had for Europe in more recent years:
consequently if it was necessary to give a subject greater
authority, an Indian source was invoked by Islamic
writers: Tum-Tum also occurs as an authority in other
occult writings in Arabic. Zunbuleven claims that
Tum-Tum'sgeomancy was written 'in the language of the
inhabitants of India'. Moreover, Muslim travellers often
made a pilgrimage to India, and 'to be an Indian, wise in
the. interpretation of secrets' was a common phrase, and
one of the ideals of the Brethren of Purity.
Halaf al-Barbari was next in the Arabic chain of traditional descent.
He travelled to India to study geomancy, where he copied Tum-Tum's texts into Arabic.

Abu 'Abdallah Muhammad Az-Zanati drew on al-Babari's work in turn to produce one of the
more complete geomancies of his time. Although az-Zanati's dates are not
known, it issuspected that he lived during the twelfth or
thirteenth centuries, as he is quoted by Ibn Khaldoun
in the following century. Az-Zanati's works have often
been reprinted in Arabic from the thirteenth century to
the present day, and he stands as one of the greatest
Arabic authorities on geomancy. In turn Ahmad ben 'Ali
Zunbul drew his material from az-Zanati in the sixteenth
century (when geomancy in Europe and raml in Islam
simultaneously reached their peaks), establishing rami as
an integral part of the world of Islam. Its special features
are examined in the next chapter.





Further suggestive evidence of the direct connexion
between rami and the divinatory systems of the Yoruba
comes from the presence among the Yoruba of a form of
sand-cutting, called by them iyanrin tite, which is practised
by Muslim diviners known as alufa who often referred to
the technique as bati ramli (or atimi for short). The
names of the sixteen basic figures (AI Kauseji, Alahika,
Utuba dahila, etc.) clearly differ from those of ita but
correspond to those given by az-Zanati. The order in
which these figures were recently given by an alufa, a
native of Zaria, is identical with that in which they are
listed by az-Zanati, Although this system of the alufa
may be a recent introduction of Islamic geomancy, the
local parallels in practice between it and ita help to
confirm the Muslim origin of the latter.
The practitioners of ifa divination rely upon extensive
verses which are memorized and recited in response to
the generation of a particular geomantic figure: traces of
such verses exist in Islamic raml, but not the propitiatory
sacrifices which are of such central importance to ifa. On
the positive side, sand-cutting is sometimes used rather
than the throwing of seeds to generate a figure in both
ifa and rami, and the whole mathematics of addition of
odds and evens, the shapes of the figures, and some
meanings are identical.

Burton and Maupoil 13 both came to the conclusion that
ifa, fa divination and sikidy (in Madagascar) are all derived
from Islamic geomancy. Considering the trade routes and
general expansion of Islam, together with the incredible
internal similarity, this thesis seems to be inescapable. A
final piece of evidence is produced by Ellis (1894) who
says of the divination board used by the ifa diviners that
it is 'exactly similar to those used by children in Muslim
schools in lieu of slates, about two feet long and eight or
nine inches broad .... ', thus reinforcing the evidence for
the Islamic origin of ifa.14 It could even be conjectured
that Muslim practitioners demonstrated raml on school
boards whilst teaching the Yoruba other subjects. The
Yoruba then might easily have assumed that the board was
a necessary part of the impedimenta of divination rather
than merely a convenient writing surface. Farrow also
refers to the divining board as 'an engraved circular board,
or a rectangular one, with a handle, similar to a
Mohammedan writing tablet ...'.15 Although the
reference to the use of a Muslim type of slate as a divining
tray may possibly stem from a misinterpretation of Burton's accountof 1893, it seems a fairly .likely cultural
transition..Accordingly, in chapter 3 we investigate the
techniquesused by. the Yorubafor theirIfarelated divination,
and by their neighbouring Dahomean Fa diviners.




Returning to the world of Islam in North Africa, we can
trace the trade routes down the Red Sea round the Horn
of Arabia. past the Yemen and along the coast of Africa
down to Madagascar where the tradition of sikidy, which
is examined in detail in chapter 4, has been .brought almost
intact, with its original Arabic. names for the various
figures. ·The arrival of Arab .traders bearing with them
this technique of divination is well documented, and it has blended successfully with the traditional beliefs of the
native Ma.lagasy.ln fact it held such a sway· over the
imagination of the population before the coming of
Christianity, that the missionaries. responsible for the
latter found it harder to conquer than the ritual religious
practices ofa non-divinatory kind!
In chapter 5 we move north from the world of the
Prophet to the great school of translators at ·Toledo in
Spain, who were responsible for transmitting.so much of
the best of Arab civilization and science into the comparatively
backward Europe of the Dark Ages.

Euro-centric and Arab-centric biases. This ties in with the earlier discussions regarding ignorance and abuse with the structure and formations of language family and grouping in Niger-Congo. The above on divinations practices should be narrowed to just two forms of divination, Alraml and Orunmila. Note what they call divination in Madgascar, Sikidy, and campare with Sigidi.

Sikidy, Sajjadah, Sigidi - cognates
Alraml, Orunmila, Urim - cognates


I can't talk much right now power is dying.


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On a side note, have you seen this before?
http://www.universityofafricanart.org/Image/Text/New%20Bibeli1.pdf

“Politically, Nigerians must now gird their loins and see the democratic uprooting of this administration as a task that must be done in 2019 so as to save the country from utter destruction.

Simple!

dammy13:
Ekiti State Governor, Ayo Fayose, has criticised President Muhammadu Buhari for not arresting the Chairman, North Central zone of Miyetti Allah Cattle Breeders Association of Nigeria, MACBAN, Danladi Ciroma, after his claim that the killing of the 86 persons was in retaliation to the death of over 300 cows in the last few weeks by the affected villagers.

We reported that Danladi Ciroma, was quoted saying that, “These attacks are retaliatory. As much as I don’t support the killing of human being, the truth must be told that those who carried out the attacks must be on revenge mission.

“There have been recent reports of cow rustling and destruction of farms between Berom farmers and Fulani herdsmen. The people carrying out these criminal activities are well known to the communities but the communities are hiding them.”

However, reacting, Fayose on Twitter urged Buhari to deal with the ‘perpetrators of the evil act as terrorists.’

He said, ”One question Nigerians should be asking President Buhari is; has anyone been arrested for the killing of over 200 people in Plateau.

”200 people killed in one day by people said to be retaliating loss of cows is a national disaster that should attract decisive actions not speeches.

”In saner climes, Presidents don’t go to sleep when over 200 of their citizens, including children are murdered,they take decisive actions to bring perpetrators to book and prevent reoccurrence. But here in Nigeria, our president sees killing of over 200 people as two fighting.

”President Buhari, killings by herdsmen is not Farmers/Herdsmen clash. It is not a case of two fighting. Rather, it is terrorism. Deal with perpetrators as terrorists and you will see these senseless killings coming to an end.”

http://kikiotolu.com/plateau-killings-questions-fayose-is-asking-buhari-on-attacks/

What Fayose said here is what is called war-room troubleshooting. He is doing the job of the President for him. If they are sincere about getting to the root they should listen to what he said here, even if they've never listened to anything he said before. This is the best I ever heard him say on national issues.

In a time of national crisis you gather the stakeholders, retrace the events as known, collect brainstorm inputs (free from political correctness), highlight TOP 5 attributes and what action plan to take on the 5. Issue a press statement on the problem, the findings, the next stage of action.

Please do not say Arab sand divination because that did not get to these parts until much later. Ever wondered why the only Odu that refers to Islam is one of the last 3 Odus? Also, do remember that the development of divination in Yorubaland was a process - coconut shells, agbigba, kola nuts, ikin, opele & cowries reflect the several stages that were collapsed into ‘Ifa’. Nonetheless, I would like to hear your thoughts.

Obalufon, Quite interesting! You have touched on something very critical to the whole debate. IFA is holy and sacred, it is mystical, it is a covenant, it is a patrimony, it is a record, it is unique. In modern terms, it is a database, held in human memory instead of computer memory.

IFA contains history, arts, spirituality, it talks about ecology, science, animal species, talks about creation, chemistry, physics, mysticism, esoteric, metaphysics, social science, democracy, diplomacy, authority, war, peace, domestic relations, parental responsibility,.....the list is endless! It touches every aspect of humanity, cosmology and the environment.

Here are my questions to you from the bold and also my outline above on IFA...
1 - The ending or last collections of the Odus touches on Islam. Is this a fact or your own theory?
2 - Development of divination was a process. What were the epochs, can you name three and their corresponding mystical principles?
3 - Several stages of divination collapsed into IFA. This ties with question in 2.....were they all same mystical principles but different processes and methodologies , or were these discrete principles that were outlived by a single IFA principle?

Olu317:
Kindly take it easy on him.

Odua a gbè wa l'asé Èlèdumàrè

geosegun:
@metaphysical: E jowo o. Ti aba fi owo otun ba omo wi, a o si fi ti osi fa'monra. I concur with Babaramota and Olu317.

Although I don't comment much but I follow most discussions on culture section back to back.

Na God we dey beg to forgive us all. Ese pupo!
Omode gbon, Agba gbon...oun la fi da IleIfe!
Diversity is the bedrock of Yoruba civilization!

Baba thanks. I responded to email. Modify your post.

[.

When Minister Adeosun covers her head she is almost unrecognizable....but noticeable.

Hati13:
[s]Your statements are contradicting each other. You said “this is a public forum for open discussion and interchange of ideas” and say why are you concerned with Yoruba. To tell you the truth I’m not concerned with Yoruba and like you said this is a discussion forum so when I saw this thread, I started to discussion.

And don’t get emotional and say Ethiopian civilization is inferior to Yoruba. You are screaming “stay on topic” but here is you getting out of topic (saying Yoruba is superior to Ethiopia in civilization) and trying to initiate a conversation so you can scream “stay on topic” if I responded. You are a sick man.[/s]

I repeat what I told you before...FVCK U!

In continuation and support of what Olu is saying, in Yoruba cosmology Oruko is a principal and fundamental tenet of identity and attachment, to family, to circumstance, to space, to environment, and so on...

Names like Kayode is meaningful for the state of affairs in the family unit.
Abodunrin is meaningful for space of time.
Ajayi is meaningful to circumstance of birth.
Tokunbo is meaningful for the environment.


Oriki is also meaningful for ancestral link and so is Orile. In Yorubaland a person does not need to carry an identification card to be traced to their family home. The Yoruba child amongst strangers in Norway can be linked to the family compound if we know the Orile, the Oriki and Oruko. Yoruba has a chain structure for tying a person born in any era upstream to the ancestral lineage in past records. This is an amazing feat and we are yet to see any other ethnic group in our region with similar naming structure.

For a people that developed and instituted such a complex but yet navigable structure for tracing individuals, how is it then that they will not know their own ethnic name? Absurd and unthinkable!

Yoruba indeed named itself. Again, there are ancestral Orikis and Oriles in Yorubaland that stretch back thousands of years.

Baba Ahmed could not have written about Yoruba unless Yoruba was already known in the consciousness of a reading (or literate) population. Arab and Muslim societies do not have unique name structures like I described for Yoruba. I am sure in Massina alone, where Baba Ahmed was, there would be perharps hundred or more Baba Ahmed. Ahmed is Islamic but Baba is not. What is Baba?

Baba is derived from Ba.
Ba, Bi, Bo are signatures for reproductive nature of mankind. Arabs are fond of using Bin to denote parentage. Ahmed Bin Khadija (in a matrilineal society) or Ahmed Bin Khalif (in a patrilineal one)......Ahmed child of Khadija, or Ahmed child of Khalif.

In Yoruba we use Aba or Abo to denote Male and Female gender respectively, Obi to denote parent but Bibi to denote child of... Yoruba is patrilineal society and so Fakorede Bibi Ile Agbo will mean Fakorede belonging in the compound of Agbo. We can instantly trace Fakorede to an Eso compound, Agbo being the Orile (totem) of Eso (Army Cavalry).

Baba is father in most cultures sharing semitic or proto-semitic tongue, and very common in the Sudan in particular. Baba Awo, is who Yoruba call Babalawo. Prior to the days of media news and radio broadcast not many people around the world will know what I mean if I say OSUN, except those who are already knowledgable and conversant with Yoruba deities. While some people in Africa may not know what OSUN is, people in Brazil, Cuba, Puerto Rico, Haiti and so on will know and can relate because they had preknowledge of who OSUN is. Using this analogy, Baba Ahmed had pre-knowledge of Yoruba but he was not the inventor or originator of the name, the name was already in circuit in the Sudan in similar fashion that the name Baba was in common usage amongst a people of semitic and proto-Semitic background.

OlaoChi:
What you are saying here about records is what i have said since but you never did comprehend or you just choose to act like I didnt say it. Yoruba has no written history so there is only traditional sources(Language,Art, Music, Festivals, Cult/Family Rituals, Orally passed information within Families etc) and in the world of academics any work must have a source not guess work and assumptions, therefore Traditionalists must be involved and not ignored or spoken for. I have said that twice.
What business have Pastors with Sango ritual? or Ifa divination? or Shigidi? You keep mentioning Pastors and non-initiates who themselves didnt even study the topic they are talking about. Olumide Lucas wrote on Egyptian influence on Yoruba traditional religion when he was not a traditionalist and had no idea of Isese. Where are the sources? Just because i say mention scholars, doesnt mean mention a person who has published a book... Scholars are people who study, research, draw theory, discuss, take a position and open themselves up for scrutiny. Scholars are University trained and know the tenets of their discipline and follow it, Scholars are endorsed by Institutions and often are Lecturers themselves.

Lucas and Oduyoye do not stick to their discipline, in fact what did Olumide Lucas study at the University? His credentials are unknown, because all the poeple who mention him call him an Egyptologist but he had no thorough knowledge of Egyptology

I have never attempted to reduce yoruba to written records and that is very clear. You still have not provided any evidence

If Yoruba art is so different you can take up Olu317's assignment and identify which of those pictures I posted are non-yoruba..if you want I will post them again. You need to provide evidence in form of 1. what oral history records Yoruba being Semitic migrants 2. Enough Linguistic similarity between Yoruba and Semitic languages - at least 20% Lexical similarity, Similarity in Sentence structure, Verb Conjugation, Noun forms etc 3. Similarities between Yoruba and Arabic Art/Music for you , then Olu317 will provide Hebrew Art/Music 4. Similarities between Yoruba traditional religion and that of Arabs and Hebrews


Mr. man let me tell you something frankly, any person who doesnt know his father is a bastard. If you are yoruba as much as you like to claim (you even say i am not yoruba because I dont share your delusions...which piss me off ) you would know the importance of one's ancestors and how much not just about clan/family affiliation but blood descent is important. But its not your fault..you cant possibly feel true yoruba pride...its the effect of foreign religion on you. It is not new for Yoruba identity to be attacked by people of its own.

Let me start from bottom up for you....

One of the best social attributes of Yoruba is diversity. We must have diversity of thoughts and opinions and worldview, without being labeled ignoble names and identities. If we all agree that Yoruba is aborigene there would have been no stirring of the spirit into inquisition about our past and then we would remain static with no new discoveries and knowledge. Similarly if we all agree that Yoruba is migrant, there would be no drives to find out the alternative. You cannot keep rubbing scholarship in people's face but then talk like an unlettered person in your response to them, it kills your credibility. The first principle of interaction is respect and humility, regardless of what you know or think you know, assume the person you are talking to is a friend and not a foe. To win people over to your side, you must show compassion and understanding, otherwise you loose them. This is basic rule in human interaction. I find it very hard to reconcile people who come out proclaiming intellect but out of their mouth and spirit is spitefulness and arrogance, the two do not harmonize. I can get dirty with the tongue and very caustic but again, i cherish my Omoluabi and my personal ORI more than I value my opponent's. Are you aware that on this internet we cross paths with people with Ase? You dont know who is on other side, prevention is better than cure....always humble yourself and restrain, its the best medicine. In fact, it is what IFA teaches, humility and restraint!


On any language, SOUND is the phenomenal character of tongue and speech. If sound is not present language has no character, even though communication is still possible. The language we call Yoruba has a character that is overwhelmingly superior to the native and aboriginal tongues anywhere in its region. There is no need proving anything as you are quick to call for...but you should investigate it yourself so you can grow and be enlightened. Four or so years ago when I joined here and started talking about this topic of origin my opponents would counter my position that most of Yoruba words were borrowed from Huasa and Islam. I didnt know any better because I neither spoke Hausa or Arabic. So I took upon myself as a challenge to learn Hausa so I can have it as a tool to filter and speak authoritatively on what is borrowed from Hausa and what is not. Today, I can speak Hausa fluently. I can write it and read it. Personal challenge to grow and expand, in just four years I acquired a tool and overcome the barrier presented by my opponents.

I have root words that you have never heard before in Yoruba and I have concrete evidence of aspects of Arabia in connection with Yoruba that is indisputable. It is waste of time and resource bringing those here to discuss. This forum is gutter, I must protect the information from getting soiled. Everyone come out here and say Yoruba is not mentioned by Arab and they did not write about us. They have never denied Yoruba footprints in Arabia either. They don't need to write about us...they have records of our presence in that land. It is in their antiquities and rites of worship as well. If they allow research into their pre-Islamic past those records will speak, but they will not open that gate into the pre-dynastic Arabia.

I respect the beliefs you all hold on your side of the argument and I see it as diversity. I dont have need to abuse your person because you differ or refuse to accept what I present. Mind over emotions!

Hati13:
I’ve already contributed to this thread before and after you come here and start quoting me. Told you to not mention me anymore but you are doing it. You are clearly a sick person.

You are nothing but a punk! First, this is a public forum for open discussion and interchange of ideas. What do you know on Yoruba origin to begin with? Has any Yoruba claimed origin in Ethiopia? What is Ethiopia where Yoruba is concerned? Yoruba as a aborigene is far superior civilization to your Ethiopia, and Yoruba as a migrant is way above you in civilization. Who cares to hear about your warped history?

...what claims do you have anywhere in Africa that supersedes that of Yoruba legends?

Get the fvk out of here abeg! Punk!

Hati13:
What’s your problem? You accused me of being out of topic even though you are the one who ask me to answer. I said ok let’s end the discussion and now you come and talk about Queen of Sheba again and say stay in topic. Appreciate it if you don’t quote me again.

No, you have a problem! Contribute on the topic on this thread or get out and go create a Ethiopian and Sheba topic to discuss on. Don't take my courteous responses and Omoluabi for timidity. If you give any more response with a discourteous tone you will truly get the sharp edge of my tongue.

Hati13:
You asked for an answer and get mad when an answer is given to you. You are sick, I’m done.

I did not get mad, not at all. You perceived that wrongly. I see where in past you said the ethnicity of Sheba is unknown. But you provided link saying its a concrete proof that Ethiopian story of Queen Sheba is more authentic than Yoruba's. That's contentious. If you notice, I lead in with questions. I dont assume and Im open to be taught what I am yet to know. You answered that no dna has been done because her bone cannot be found or its whereabouts not known. Yoruba claim her remains is with them. Is there any proof of that? No!
There is no proof that your claim is more authentic than Yoruba's. You should leave that topic alone and not introduce it here.

If you want to discuss on this thread focus on the topic and its subject area.

OlaoChi:
This was written by John Wyndham. a fictional writer.
In this text Aramfe is described as the supreme being, when Olodumare is the supreme being in Yoruba traditions. Aramfe or Oramfe is Ife's version of Sango.
Also nothing in this text shows us how Yoruba are Arabs

You and olu are getting desperate that you are bringing issues that dont even have anything to do with your claims

I bring you authorities on semitic and middle eastern languages who confirm the connection between that region and Yoruba, you dismissed them as unqualified. I bring you authorities on christianity and judaism who all share the view that Yoruba is from AfroAsia, you dismissed them as people influenced by foreign religion and requested for an authority on Ifa. I bring you Araba of Ife, you now dismiss it as works of fiction from John Wydham. You have done a bad job of representing the side you are on.

How would a person that could not answer question on Laba or sigidi begin to question the meaning of Aramfe? Did you not say somewhere that you are getting initiated into Isese? I do not believe you but even if it's true please do not go forward with the initiation. Protect your head and do not proceed with the initiation. I say this with seriousness!

OlaoChi:
lmao. Because I am proudly African i must not be Yoruba, you people just want to exclude Yoruba from Africa by all means. Sorry to burst your bubble I am more Yoruba than a bastard slave like you who hates his Yoruba origins and wants to identify with Arabs. I am Yoruba...soryy And I have more experience with yoruba than you will ever have. You who is nothing but a bastard denying his ancestors

Lucas is not even a proper Egyptologist(his knowledge of Egyptian language has been exposed as flawed), neither was he a Yoruba historian.. please mention Scholars on Yoruba field not people of Yoruba descent who wrote books when at a time when not many people wrote books on Yoruba people...both Oduyoye and Lucas didnt study Yoruba issues, they studied foreign issues ie. Theology, Semitic linguistics, Egyptology and neither had a traditional background.

I mentioned Banji Akintoye... the leading Yoruba historian known all over the world, a University professor and authority on Yoruba history

Yes, I treat Yoruba based on academic disciplines not hearsay. A regard scholars, who show evidence and use traditional sources.

Again I will tell you this.. Yoruba lack written history, all we have is tradition ie. language, festivals, orally passed information from generation to generation within certain families, ritual cult activities(within the Ile-orisa) etc and then there is modern sciences of Archaeology and genetics

Anybody you mention who doesnt use traditional sources bt simply goes straight to stating is probably guessing and inventing, which you fall into.

The word "written" in the scope of written history is overhyped here!

What you need is record. Oral history is a record, arts are records, music is a record, rituals are records, shrines are records, sound and characters of language are records, writing is a record. Oruko, Oriki, Orile, Ewi.....these are all records and none were written down pre-European access. So should we say Ajo bi Ewe is not an Ewi authority because he did not write or produce any scholarship work on Ewi? How does this sound to you?

You are attempting here to reduce Yoruba to just written records and ignore all other methods in which Yoruba antiquity has been preserved.
The aborigines do not have such vast records of antiquity. You want to dumb down Yoruba and deny its migrant footprint. The migrant footprint is what makes Yoruba unique and different from rest.



...and on the use of foul language, please, I beg you...refrain from using that sort of language on me. You do not know who I am. Humble yourself, please, humble yourself when responding to me. If you are in a state of emotional heat....stand back and compose yourself before responding to me. I will not give another warning.

OlaoChi:
Oduyoye is not a yoruba historian or African linguist. He was known as a Semitic linguist and Theologian. If you cant get that then you have a problem recognizing what credibility and qualifications are

He, in his books and sermons at church, drew on Semitic connection to Nigerian languages, he mentioned Egbira, Nupe, Yoruba, Igbo, Hausa and Yoruba which already show how much of a patch-work person he was, not drawing on any concrete evidence or singling out Yoruba...so why are you singling out Yoruba if Oduyoye claimed all of Nigeria has Semitic connection? It is obvious he was like any african christian obsessed with Hebrews and was stiring up Hebrew sentiments. Not to mention that he never challenged Yoruba's status as a Niger-congo language, he only attempted to demonstrate an influence of Semitic languages on Nigerian languages. Oduyoye doesnt even agree with you
I happen to love the Japanese culture, I can start a 'Yoruba are of Japanese origin' trend, publish books and make claims and fools will buy that.. I hope you know there are people online who have started a 'Igbo-Japanese connection theory' soon I will start Yoruba own so of course you can publish books but the contents of the book, your qualification, your field research(not online copy and paste), your sources, your evidence is what is important not more claims written in a fancy book. Do you see your book being a reference by University professors? Do you see yourself holding a lecture at the university after publishing your book?

Africa is really shitty because of people who refuse to embrace their identity, those who have given in to the socialdarwinist and racist ideas of Europeans and Semitic people about the black man. these people hate you for goodness sake, why love them so much that you want to be them?

Ok good, since you dont want to publish books please share your knowledge here dont be shy

Lmao why are you asking me about Shigidi? if there is anything about Shigidi that points to Arabs just say it.
There is only so much an uninitiate like you and I can know about Shigidi, but the basic fact is Shigidi is a protective orisa that guards boundaries and property . Would be nice to see how this is an Arabic deity

Oh and Why is it that You are saying Yoruba are Arabic and Olu is saying Hebrew? Why the confusion?

Please stop rambling just to sound intelligent.

You continue to say Dr. Oduyoye's declarations cannot carry weight against Gottliob Krause's because the former is not a linguist nor historian and moreover not an expert on Yoruba language.

Gottliob did not even go to a university. The only language he spoke was German and his works were published in that language.

What academic qualification did Gottliob posess to qualify as a linguist and expert on Yoruba?

He used interpreters to interact with the natives and approximated what they said into German. His publications were then translated into English, French and so on. Imagine the errors and inaccuracies between source and finished product called Niger-Congo family.

Hati13:
The Ethiopian version says when Menelik I (son of Queen of Sheba and King Solomon) retuned to Ethiopia from Israel, some Israelis accompanied him with the Ark of the Covenant. The date was around 10th BC and the DNA study also pointed for a 11th-10th BC gene flow from Levant to Ethiopia. The versions also say Ethiopia was converted from paganism to Judaism this time (even though there is an exaggeration in the magnitude, some Ethiopians did indeed followed Judaism before Christ). This further explain why Bete Israel (Ethiopian Jew) are Jews and why their Judaism is the ancient form and also why Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity incorporated lots of Judaism customs. No form of Christianity in the world is much affected by Judaism like Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity did.

You bounce around a lot. I will repeat and clarify what I said. Remember that this is a Yoruba thread, focus on the topic here.

Olu317:
Feel bittered? Obviously, you are the unrealistic one here. I choose to point to six ,which are different from my screenshots and you are here making mockery of yourself . I know you are Ibo,right? Or ibo Yoruba? Guess what if you are interested, get copy of Olumide lucas's work that did study on language affinity with Ancient Egypt. Again, you have nothing to proof wrong because, this is bigger than you. Further more, your domestic knowledge need stay domestically because you don't even have knowledge about African history talkless of Semitic. You kept asking the same questions over and over again! What a being? Have you no knowledge of ancient power, language spoken and strength of Egypt pharaoh's dominance through many places I had mentioned in my previous posts. The google is your friend and if you have no knowledge that original Hebrew developed from Egyptian language and it died permanently in the middle East after the conquest of Juda, then, I AM SORRY FOR YOU. Go read the posts i sent to Hati13, on the strength of ancient Ethiopian pharaohs that ruled Egypt And the current spoken Hebrew/Israel's language was developed around 19th century . The biggest clown you are!
Lastly, you must bring out same lexicons shared with Yoruba's words from these neigbour of yorubas because I will be posting more than fifty (50 words), since you claim Yoruba are within same family language grouping with the people you mentioned. Kindly give it some try

This makes sense. I was wondering to myself the reasoning behind his disregard for the Yoruba sound and the works of great scholars like Lucas, Oduyoye on the root words and connections in cultural beliefs. He seems to treat Yoruba from perspective of classrooms and curriculums and is because he lacks phenomenal experience of what Yoruba is. His knowledge of it is limited to written works. I even doubt he has any Yoruba in him. I caught an Ibo on a thread once who had done vast studies in Yoruba and acted similarly. He was outed by an error in his post, otherwise we mistook him for Yoruba.

Thanks bro.
Oodua a Gbe wa!

Hati13:
The Ethiopian version says when Menelik I (son of Queen of Sheba and King Solomon) retuned to Ethiopia from Israel, some Israelis accompanied him with the Ark of the Covenant. The date was around 10th BC and the DNA study also pointed for a 11th-10th BC gene flow from Levant to Ethiopia. The versions also say Ethiopia was converted from paganism to Judaism this time (even though there is an exaggeration in the magnitude, some Ethiopians did indeed followed Judaism before Christ). This further explain why Bete Israel (Ethiopian Jew) are Jews and why their Judaism is the ancient form and also why Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity incorporated lots of Judaism customs. No form of Christianity in the world is much affected by Judaism like Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity did.

This is an Ethiopian myth. I have serious questions about what you posted here but because this thread is about Yoruba, not Ethiopia, I restrain my challenges.

What ethnicity is Sheba?

OlaoChi:
Same Josiah Òní that Samuel Johnson mentioned? If so, how is that a noteworthy mention?
You cannot mention Ifá priests or Olorisas it is a Christian clergy who Samuel Johnson (another Christian clergy) mentions that you call?

It is shaped by Christianity and Islam. Only Christians and Muslims claim they came from the Middle East.. And it's not peculiar to Yoruba.. There are more igbos who claim to be Hebrew than there are Yorubas
Some Ga and Èwe people claim to be from Hebrews. Some Fulani claim to be from Arabs... It's all over sub Saharan Africa... Pure black Africans denying their origins and claiming where their religion comes from... At this point it doesn't matter if some Christians claim Arab origin... Muslims first invented that and the likes of Samuel Johnson and other Christian early writers held on to it since it is much closer to their own masters and far from traditional "savage" black Africa.
The mind of the typical African Christian is conditioned to belive Africa is shitty and everything good only comes from outside Africa... You can see that with olu as he talked as if Yoruba are the only civilization in Africa.. He even said Yoruba is so unique and of a greater civilization above all other africans therefore Yoruba cannot be africans... This is ethnic bigotry in conflict with distorted ideas he has had all his life as a Christian made to view the Hebrews as some unique people above all other people... So therefore Yorubas can only be Hebrew... He can't think of anything better than being Hebrew
Foreign religions are a damage to people. Makes a free born man act less than a slave


So mention scholars.. Actual scholars who studied and explored the "idolatry" of Yoruba. Actual scholars who don't ignore Awos(traditionalists) and rather collect information from them.. Or are Awo themselves. Scholars who studied the subject they are talking on thoroughly. We will know actual scholars by their biography

Always have that in your head... Yorùbá has no written history only traditional sources are available so pastors who are looking to eradicate traditional ways are not your go to guys

Hopefully the Araba is qualified enough on your scale to be taken seriously.

Listen to the Araba here.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/afr/ife/index.htm

OlaoChi:
Good you finally name someone

Modupe Oduyoye is not in the same league as Banji Akintoye, Omotoso Eluyemi or Oluwole Oyetade. What relevance are his books to Yoruba? Or what knowledge did he possess in Yoruba history?
What accolades did he receive? What university department did he lecture? He only lectured in the church where his lecture could not be scrutinized.
He himself never claimed to be a yoruba historian and he talked about all of Nigeria having Semitic connection never specific on Yoruba alone. So why are you drawing on Yoruba alone
Neither did he claim Yoruba to be afro-asiatic or any less Niger - Congo than Igbo. He rather wanted to give the impression that Niger Congo languages have linguistic connection to Afro-asiatic (Semitic in this case)

You didn't get all this things you claim from Oduyoye

Besides he is known by the few people who know him at all as a pastor who studied exclusively Semitic linguistics and theology. He had no knowledge of Iṣẹṣe or of Yoruba history.

His entire knowledge is based on Hebrew and Arabic language and religions but he displayed lack of knowledge in the Yoruba aspects

That you should know well because he never claimed to have collected any oral history or to have performed any field research

You believe Dr Oduyoye that studied and speaks European languages, AfroAsiatic languages, Nigerian languages, is less qualified than the German that originated the Niger-Congo language group and who is never equipped in any of the African tongues he claimed authority on?

Put that in your mouth and taste it, what does the flavor taste like?

Having considerable acquaintance with many languages, Oduyoye's vantage point enabled him to ask questions that European and Anglo Bible scholars were not asking. He also questions many of the long-accepted interpretations of Jewish scholars.


You put forward a challenge on Niger-Congo and an authority in language. Now that one is presented, you shift goal and say he is not historian.

You claimed Yoruba were influenced by Muslims and Islamic contents, I bring you authorities in Christianity who share their views. Now you say they are not Ifa worshippers.


My brother, I have been on this topic a looooooong time. I have not shared with you a quarter of the mysteries I have acquired and archived on this topic. Some I dont even want to share because I can publish them and make money or syndicate them for gainful income. I am not one of those that chase proofs. I share and exchange knowledge.


Do you know what the Yoruba word Sigidi is? Describe what it is if you know.

Hati13:
No. Her bone isn’t known.

How then does the link you shared with Baba support the theory of.... "concrete proof for the Ethiopian version of Queen of Sheba story to be more probable than Yoruba one."?

Focus on the thread. If you want to anchor on Queen Sheba to disprove Yoruba claim to her you need to do more than that link you posted as concrete proof. Share knowledge, rather than chasing proof.

Top 5 Christian proponents of Yoruba root from AfroAsia (Note there are Deacons amongst them). These people are looking at the issue from a Christian and scientific viewpoint. Not a single one is Muslim!

1 - Josiah Oni (Oral Historian)
2 - Venerable Lagunju (Timi of Ede & Oral Historian)
3 - Samuel Johnson (His original manuscript of 1899 was suppressed, taken out of circulation & substituted with a published draft in 1922)
4 - Venerable Archdeacon J. Olumide Lucas (Former Pastor of St. Paul’s Church, Breadfruit in Lagos, Nigeria)
5 - Dr Modupe Oduyoye (Polyglot, Deacon, Linguist, mentored by Arch. J. Olumide Lucas)



So the point that Islamic input shaped thoughts and opinion on Yoruba root in AfroAsia is wicked and untruthful. Unless we want to say the above are zombies who lack independent thought and were thus under influence of Muslim clerics. If the latter were true, those Muslim clerics deserve award for successfully engineering and molding the Christians into accepting AfroAsia as their root. The truth is the acceptance and advocacy for AfroAsia is neither shaped by Christianity or Islam but by arts, spirituality and culture, all of which is the backbone of Yoruba identity.

Hati13:
BabaRamota1980,

Here is concrete proof for the Ethiopian version of Queen of Sheba story to be more probable than Yoruba one.

https://thomaslmcdonald./2012/06/25/levantine-dna-in-ethiopia-may-support-biblical-story/amp/

Was a DNA test done on the remains of Queen Sheba?

OlaoChi:
Precisely because none of us were there is why you need to provide evidence. you cannot make historical claims based on your imaginary and religious fantasies, which also challenge established propositions based on facts. You need actual evidence which you can only get if you have studied or explored the subject matter thoroughly

To be Honest, I dont see how you can even acquire evidence that Yoruba is not a Niger-congo language, when there is evidence that it is.
But if you cherish your beliefs so much you can try, take a course in African linguistics and publish your findings as an academic work in your capacity as a Scholar. You would be contributing immensely to the World's wealth of Knowledge

The fact that you mention Olu and 'new convert' Babaramota and not some University professors or Renowned Historians means that you know very well that you are a cult-like group of individuals in the minority without scholastic or expert backing, similar to black hebrew israelites in the US or Nation of Islam or even (without terrorism) the KKK.

A proper historian would provide evidence, because like you said we were not there so the issue of just sitting somewhere and inventing things is non-academic and a threat to Yoruba history, especially due to the lack of written records and necessity to rely on traditional sources eg. language, festivals, orally passed information, Art etc

"Yoruba is an Identity for migrants" how interesting.
I thought 'yoruba' is an identity for all the people of west africa who speak dialects of the Yoruba language, the term 'yoruba' originally referring exclusively to the Oyo Empire before expanding as an Ethnic nomenclature for all native Yoruba speakers.

Was I wrong



First of all, the genesis account of the bible is not actual history, it is called Christian mythology, which is an incomplete version of the wider Jewish mythology, which itself is a copy of the various myths of Mesopotamia.
Why would you bring this up when talking about history?

Now of course not all myths are false but in this case the myth that Man originated somewhere along the Euphrates river in Asia is false as man originated in Africa

And I fail to see how Ile-ife has anything to do with Nineveh or how yoruba traditions of origin fit into biblical accounts?. If Yorubas claim Ife as their homeland and origin of mankind doesn't that all debunk your claim that 'Yoruba' are migrants?

How nice, well I already gave examples of Languages which are not grouped into the same category as other surrounding languages above which you read and like I said when you become a Linguist you can argue this out with Linguists all over the world. Go get that education and expertise and contribute to Social Science. Any sane person will stick to learned publications not allegations without actually studying the languages yourself

I don't know any of the scholars in your treasure that can beat Modupe Oduyoye. Have you ever heard of him?

Okayyy...I think its time for elders to step in here and intervene.

Moneywoman, Olu, Baba, Y0ruba, asiko ti Omoluabi wa to bayi. Eyi ta se yi na too.

I take Oduduwa beg you, I take Obatala beg you, I take Ogun and Sango beg you, I take Oya and Osun beg you, I take Iya beg you. I beg you in name of Oranmiyan, Moremi and all the ancestors. E don do!

You have achieved your objectives. What else are you doing here? Let it go.

Baba you owe me one . I don rescue you for that origin of Yoruba thread. Pay me back by stopping this thing now. I no wan hear haaan from your mouth, just .., look, forget this thread exist.


Guys abeg o, you said this is your fight and only you have right to stop it, not other side. Please exercise that right this moment. You have done impressively well in outlining your points and achieved the goals. Walk off majestically with your head high and leave Edo people alone to their own problems.

Please....

I thank una!

Oodua a Gbe Wa o!

Everything sounded good and promising until they got to this and soured everything.

So a lot of incentives will come and we will [/b]use the cow dungs to [b]generate electricity.”

Lie has a color that can be detected by graphing. No machine is capable of detecting the color in this their lie about generating electricity. It belongs in dark hole

THE ODUDUWAN REVOLUTION

In the first chapter, we talked about the aboriginal nature of the Yoruban peoples. In this chapter, we shall talk of a possible migration from ancient Egypt. Many traditions point to a fact that an alien group (Egyptians) immigrated to Yoruba land and mixed with the original population.

Many oral traditions are replete with these stories. The Awujale of Ijebu land has shown that the Ijebus are descended from ancient Nubia (a colony of Egypt). He was able to use the evidence of language, body, scarification, coronation rituals that are similar to Nubians� etc, to show that the Ijebus are descendants of the Nubians. What the present Awujale claimed for the Ijebus, can be authenticated all over Yoruba land. The Awujale even mentioned (2004) that the Itsekiri (an eastern Yoruba dialect) are speaking the original Ijebu language.

Since the Nubians were descended or colonized by the Egyptians, the Ijebu, and by extension, all Yoruba customs, derived from the Egyptian. Many traditional Yorubas have always claimed Egypt as their place of original abode, and that their monarchical tradition derives from the Egyptians�. Apostle Atigbiofor Atsuliaghan, a high priest of Umale-Okun, and a direct descendant of Orunmila, claimed that the Yorubas left Egypt as a result of a big war that engulfed the whole of Egypt. He said the Egyptian remnants settled in various places, two important places being Ode Itsekiri and Ile-Ife.Chief O.N Rewane says �Oral tradition has it also that when the Yorubas came from South of Egypt they did not go straight to where they now occupy. They settled at Illushi, some at Asaba area � Ebu, Olukumi Ukwunzu while some settled at Ode-Itsekiri,.� (O.N. Rewane Royalty Magazine A PICTORIAL SOUVENIR OF THE BURIAL AND CORONATION OF OLU OF WARRI, WARRI 1987)

Since these oral traditions are passed on by very illiterate people, we can augment whatever is recorded with written sources. Concerning the migration of some of the Yoruban ancestors from the east, Conton says:

The Yoruba of Nigeria are believed by many modern historians to be descended from a people who were living on the banks of the Nile 2,000 years ago, and who were at the time in close contact with the Egyptians and the Jews. Sometime before AD 600, if this belief is correct, this people must have left their fertile lands, for reasons which we can not now discover and have joined in the ceaseless movement of tribes west wards and south-wards across our continent.

We can only guess at the many adventures they and their descendants must have had on their long journey and at the number of generations which passed before they arrived. All we can be certain about is that they were a Negro people (of which ancient Egypt probably had at least one community as we have seen) and that one of the many princely states they founded on their arrival in West Africa�..was Ife.� Conton WF (1960. 71

Although we agree with Conton that some of the Yoruban ancestors migrated from Egypt, we tend to toe the scientific line of Cheik Anta Diop, that the ancient Egyptians were pure Negroes.

Aderibigbe, an indigenous scholar, also accepts that the Yorubas migrated from Egypt. He says:

�The general trend of these theories, most of them based on Yoruba traditions, is that of a possible origin from �the east�. Some scholars, impressed by the similarities between Yoruba and ancient Egyptian culture � religious observation, works of art, burial and other customs � speak of a possible migration of the ancestors of the Yoruba from the upper Nile (as early as 2000BC � 1000BC) as a result of some upheavals in ancient Egypt�. (AB ADERIBIGBE 1976)

Unlike Conton, Aderibigbe was able to pinpoint a cause for the Yoruban migration � war. Olumide Lucas did a lot of job to show similarities and identities between the ancient Egyptians and the Yoruban peoples. The date that Aderibigbe gave (2000BC � 1000BC) is much earlier than that given by Conton. Aderibigbe�s date corresponds to that of the Hyksos invasion of Egypt 2000-1500BC. On the possible eastern origin of the Yorubas, Tariqh Sawandi says:

�The Yoruba history begins with the migration of an east African population across the trans-African route leading from Mid-Nile river area to the Mid-Niger. Archaeologists, according to M. Omoleya, inform us that the Nigerian region was inhabited more than forty thousand years ago, or as far back as 65,000BC. During this period, the Nok culture occupied the region. The Nok culture was visited by the �Yoruba people�, between 2000BC and 500BC. This group of people was led, according to Yoruba historical accounts by king Oduduwa, who settled peacefully in the already established Ile-Ife, the sacred city of the indigenous Nok people.

This time period is known as the Bronze Age, a time of high civilization of both of these groups. According to Olumide J. Lucas, �the Yoruba, during antiquity, lived in ancient Egypt before migrating to the Atlantic coast�. He uses as demonstration the similarity or identity of languages, religious beliefs, customs and names of persons, places and things. In addition, many ancient papyri discovered by archaeologists point at an Egyptian origin. (Tariqh Sawandi: Yorubic medicine: The Art of divine herbology � online article).

Ademoyega commented that the Ekiti section of the Yorubas must have migrated to their present area around 638AD when the Muslims took over Egypt and forced some of the Yoruba people to migrate to their present area.

So, we see that the Yoruba did not come in one migration, but in many different migrations � in waves. The first possible migration might be connected with the Hyksos invasion. Some words in the Yoruban vocabulary echo the words used in Egypt in predynastic times and in the early dynastic periods. Some Egyptian gods of this period have strong identities with Yoruban deities. For instance, gods such as Adumu (Adumu) Hepi (Ipi) Ausar (Ausa), Horise (Orise), and S�mi (S�mi) Nam (Inama) are present in Yoruba. All these gods existed in the pre-dynastic and early dynastic periods of Egypt. TODAY, AMONG THE ITSEKIRI-YORUBAS ,THESE GODS CAN STILL BE PHYSICALLY SEEN, AT LEAST, ONCE A YEAR! Neighbouring peoples are already initiated into the various gods systems and beliefs in yorubaland.the agban ancestral worship was first organized in Urhoboland during the funeral ceremony of chief Ayomanor of Sapele (1949). The Ipi system was first organized in Urhoboland in March 11, 2005.

We can also see words that existed in the Graeco-Roman period in some of the Yoruban dialects. When the Romans took over Egypt, they infiltrated the Egyptian area with their language. In present Yoruba, we can still find words of Roman descent. For instance, the Yoruba called the palm frond �Mariwo�. This word is derived form the Latin Rivus (River). One of the declensions of river is Rivo (by the river).Since the Yoruban possesses no �V�, the word become riwo. Thus, the word �Omariwo� means the child by the river. Some other words like Sangi (blood in Itsekiri-yoruba dialect) thought to have been derived form the Portuguese were actually brought as a result of the Roman Conquest of Egypt. Sangi is blood and the Latin term is Sanguis. Some eastern Yoruba use the term �Ihagi� which is clearly a corruption of the Roman Sanguis. A Christian army in 540AD invaded Egypt and some persons believed to have reached Yoruba land were driven from Egypt.

With the commencement of the Arab period in Egypt, some indigenous Egyptians who never wanted to accept the Islamic religion escaped to present Yoruba land. It was probably in this period that words such as Keferi (Kafri pagan in Arab) infiltrated into the Yoruboid vocabulary.

All said and done, more than fifty percent of the Yoruboid vocabulary of today can be deduced either directly or indirectly from the ancient Egyptian. These are the original ancient Egyptian language devoid of Arab and Latin words that are very few in the Yoruboid vocabulary

It is not really certain when king Oduduwa came from Egypt. He must have come in one of the many migrations. But since the Yoruba religious discourse has a lot of identities with Egyptian, Oduduwa would have left Egypt at a very early period perhaps after the Hyksos invasion of 2000-1500BC ,but not later than 30BC.