₦airaland Forum

Hermes019:
If you presented a reason good enough to justify Gods's dormancy in that story I would have no option but to change my mind.
But so far he reasons you gave for God not interferring in that story is not consistent with what we know about God from the Bible,your reason is that God didn't intervene in that situation because according to his nature he does not interfer with a persons free will hence if he acted in that situation he would go against that and he did not want to do so.
I think first we should define free will

Free will is the ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily.

If this is the case be the case then God could have intervened without altering anyone's free will and I gave instances of how he could have made that happen
1)He could have caused rain to fall preventing the kidnap
2)he could have caused the girl to fall sick requiring her to be hospitalized,preventing the kidnap
3)He could have created circumstances that would require the girls family to move to another location
There are other ways too,and with these instances I pointed,God would have prevented the incident without interfering with anyones thinking or decision making


Your position that God does not interfere with free will is not stated in the Bible so could you tell me how you discovered that,in fact here are passages contrary to your opinion about free will

Proverbs 21 vs 1
"The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will."
John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them."

Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Exodus 4:21
The LORD instructed Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders that I have put within your power. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Please show me where the bible says that God doesn't interfere with free will or is this question false dilemma too

I have demonstrated that your reason is inaccurate because
1)God does interfere with free will,from what we know in the Bible
2)Even if God does not interfere with free will he could have saved the girl without interfering with anyone's free will

Hermes019, always latching on to something like a dog with a bone, please reply to the following:
1/ If you subscribe to God willy nilly interfering with choices people have made, where and when do you think God should stop doing it
2/ Do you believe you personally have free will?
3/ Do you believe God doesnt and wont necessarily interfere with your free will, if you now decide to exercise it?

birdman:
I will answer the last question.

Why it is only the last question you are willing and ready to answer I dont understand why. How clever of you, to do that.

birdman:
You need tongues because you do not always know how to pray as you ought. There will be situations where you will be confused by the circumstances. By praying in the spirit, you enlist the help of the Holy Spirit to pray accurately, bypassing your fears, anxiety and prejudices.

birdman, I have just earlier explained and/or described what "pray in the spirit" is, but you are indifferent to it and more interested with mixing your ideas with the teachings of the Bible.
1/ Do you at all, know what a ''thy will be done and not my will" Jesus' prayer is?
2/ Do you at all, know an example and/or situation of a ''thy will be done and not my will" Jesus' prayer?

birdman:
Who to vote for in this election is an example. Sudden report of a loved one in an emergency ward after an accident is another. Your prejudice or fear can interfere with your faith in either case.

Now you want to tell me, that if one has a clear and good conscience, one wouldnt know who to vote for in this election and so needs the gift of speaking in tongue, huh? Now you want to tell me, that if there's a sudden report of a loved one in an emergency ward after an accident, one wouldnt know how and what to pray for, then leave rest in God's hands and so needs the gift of speaking in tongue, huh? If your prejudice or fear can interfere with your faith in either case, then you need to question your standing, intimacy and relationship with God.

birdman:
To this point, praying about Fulani herdsmen in tongues by Enenche is an excellent choice. The truth is, most of us dpnt really know what is going on. Most of those attackers could very well be someone else.

You are digging a bigger hole for yourself with such a comment like this. What Enenche did there is senseless talk with nonsense on steroids and he knows it

birdman, please know this, there is no short-cuts or abracadabra in praying for a believer. Speaking in tongues is not a fast track, cut corners, short-cut mechanism.

It is not a talisman, nor is it a ploy to confuse the devil or demons with the content of the prayer by speaking in unknown tongues. You and people like my dear brother Goshen360 have turned the gift of tongues into incantation and chants, what the west, in vernacular will call it glorified "ògèdè and/or ọfọ̀", so a classic case of, you can take the man out of the ghetto, but you can’t take the ghetto out of the man, you can take the man out of ATR and juju, but you can’t take the "ògèdè and/or ọfọ̀" out of the man and hence birdman and Goshen360, the need of the glorified "ògèdè and/or ọfọ̀" fake gift of speaking in tongues spiritual crutch to support him or her

birdman:
As you can see, you would be depriving yourself of gifts God has given you for victory. I hope you remember this someday when you need it.

When one's spirit is tuned in and is in tune with the Holy Spirit, trust me, that one will know how to pray in the spirit and according to the will of God.
Do you know why your spirit groans? Do you know why the spirit groans, huh? Do you know what it means, that the spirit groans Goshen360 & birdman?

birdman:
Note I am not in support of those who just blab willy nilly with no interpretation. While it is not always wrong, I suspect it is a sign of immaturity many times.

Now here is the question to your "... depriving yourself of gifts God has given you for victory ... " remark above. Do you at all, know why and because of whom, the gift of tongue was made available for? Please tell.

LordReed:
This is for those who say humans have a soul and/or spirit independent of the body. One feature of this soul or spirit is that has all the personality and memories of the human being. Now if this is the case why is no one can remember anything from conception to about 2 years old? My own personal recollections start at about 3 years old, same with some other people I have asked. It would seem that an independent spirit or soul that has all our memories would allow us to remember every thing with clarity but this is not the case.

I vividly remember telling one of my kids, salient truths, but when I asked about it years later, the kid has no recollection, we had the conversation. I've put it down to what I call "kid amnesia". Now on about your question, well, the reason why no one can remember anything from conception to about 2 years old is because apparently our brains at that period isnt developed to function enough as to be putting our experiences down as memories

Hermes019:
Have you any experience of what you are saying ?, you are not the one to determine if it is a fact or not, what makes it a fact is the evidence you bring

Everything I share with you is from the evidence of the bible. It is in that same bible, that a dead rich man, without any body, without a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit pain messages begged for water because it was tormented, this is the fact that one can then feel pain without necessarily havng a human body, without a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit the pain messages

Hermes019:
Truth that is not backed by sufficient evidence is no better than a hunc

I didnt make up what I wrote, I became aware of them from reading the bible.

Hermes019:
I did not say you were wrong, I only solicited his opinion

So you agree, accept and know that the rich man in the parable was tormented and that the bible says that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, right?
Why solicit Ihedinobi3 opinion, if you knew what I typed, wasnt wrong, huh?

Hermes019:
Do you know that Mohammed split the moon?

Dont make me laugh please. Even God Almighty wouldnt think something silly like splitting the moon. Please tell me, to what purpose and end would Mohammed want to split the moon for? You are taking tit for tat, too far, with this your Mohammed malarkey

Goshen360:
@ MuttleyLaff,

Can you please tell everyone what language or tongue Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 14 v 2 that no man UNDERSTANDS but it's between the speaker spirit and to God?

"After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;"
- Revelation 7:9

"⁹Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
¹⁰That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
¹¹And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
- Philippians 2:9-11

Goshen360, my dearest beloved brother, this thing is very simple, only that you dont want to adjust your "properly & holistic understanding meter" on this matter of gift of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 is easily understood and needing no explanation because of the greek word "glossa" used in it, which funnily enough, means word, and it's how we have the word, glossary, so obviously, "glossa" simply means human beings word(s), tongue(s) and/or language(s).

Now going straight on to your question, the language or tongue Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 14:2, is the language or tongue of human beings. He is talking about the tongue and/or language associated with human beings. So, the language or tongue Paul was talking about is, one in reference to a human being's style or manner of speaking.

Tongue, an organ of speech, is a member of the body of a human being, not celestial beings and also is the language or dialect used by a particular people distinct from that of other people, so again my dear brother Goshen360, that is the kind of language or tongue, what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 14:2

Think about it Goshen360, if I speak in a tongue no one understands, then except God and the absence of interpretation, no one will understand me. Even if I do it in private, and then my spirit prays, but my mind has no understanding and clue of what I've said.

birdman:
@ goshen360 muttleylaff

For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.
I Corinthians 14:2 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.14.2.NKJV


No one, including the speaker understands this tongue. But in spirit you are praying secrets beyond your intellect. The tongues in Acts 2 was a sign. But there are diverse tongues as you can see.


But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,
Jude 1:20 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/jud.1.20.NKJV

When you pray in the spirit, you build up yourself. And finally

Therefore let him who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding. Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say “Amen” at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say? For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified.
I Corinthians 14:13‭-‬17 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/1co.14.13-17.NKJV

Self explanatory

Verses, like John 3:8, John 4:24 and Romans 8:26, promptly flashed through my mind when about to respond to you.

The Spirit is free, it is like a wind, we dont see it, we cant touch it but we can sense it, we can hear it. It moves, one minute it is quiet and still, next minute, it can be howling and noisily slammimg doors shut

God is a Spirit, we pray in the spirit to associate oneself with what is happening or about to happen in the Spirit realm, with what is hapening in the Spirit's world, as in God's great/​grand scheme of things. When we pray in the spirit, we literally are positioning our "satellite dish or antenna" for good and maximum signal strength to get sharp pictures and/or clear broadcasts from God as pray in tune or in accordance with His "Thy will be done" and not our will

Without tuning in, (i.e. without praying in the spirit) distortions, bad reception, ugly feedbacks, clashing stations etcetera will be the end product, and we end up praying out of tune. So, by the way Jude 1:20 has nothing to do speaking in tongues but means what it says out of the tin. It means to literally, pray in the Holy Spirit, as in, like, to pray in line with the Spirit, similar to that ''thy will be done and not my will" Jesus' prayer and not to be praying in some uninteligible and inarticulate language
Do you know what a ''thy will be done and not my will" Jesus' prayer is?

birdman, you are in a gathering comprising of like minded people with Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, Edo etcetera backgrounds, who dont speak nor understand each other's unknown languages (i.e. each others Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, Edo language is unknown to the other), the only common language each undersands is English, now when it is time to pray, teach or preach, which language in the absence of interpretation, will you speak, pray, teach or preach in?
What language please?
Also why do you want or need to speak to God in an unknown language you do not understand what your mind is saying?

petra1:
That is regarding prophesying in tongues. There is difference between talking to God in tongues and talking to people . God doesn't need interpretation so it is allowed to talk to God and to oneself . But If your tongue will involve hearing of others for participation, they need to know what you said

²⁷If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
²⁸But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
- 1 Corinthians 14:27-28

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left
- Hebrews 10:26

Aside, from the above clear 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 guideine and Hebrews 10:26 biblical warning, recognise that 1 Co 14:14 even without illustrations, is so simple to understand without complications or being made complex

The truth of matter is that people dont want to come to terms with knowing that speaking in tongues as done in that YouTube video, and elsewhere nowadays in most other gatherings is not the same as the ones done in biblical times. Lets be honest to admit that it is miles apart and different to what is witnessed, widespread and generally practised in today's gathering now and to know that Paul instructions is to stop speaking in tongues, if there is no interpretation, is a hard pill for hardcore people to swallow.

Paul, as we know, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, advised against corporate and gathering speaking in tongues, but pride and ego prevents people from acknowledging and/or registering this. Case in point, the YouTube video and also like when everybody, at the same time, are prompted to start speaking in tongues.

Lets just up the ante a bit with these few cross-questions instead of beating about the bush.

1/ Do you accept that praying in the Holy Ghost (i.e. praying in the spirit) is not a synonymous for ''praying in tongue''?
2/ Do you also accept that the disciples, none of the Apostles (e.g. Paul etcetera) did not ''pray in tongues''?
3/ I have read about ''speaking in tongues edifies the church'' but never read in the Bible about ''praying in tongues edifies the church'', so would you mind sharing, which scriptures says: "praying in tongues edifies the church"
4/ You are creating an alternative fact by saying: ''praying in tongue is the best way to pray perfectly according to Gods will, and erroneously using Rom 8:26 to falsely back the remark up with''. If you arent, then please explain with examples how you came about this interpretation, then I will put forward same after yours
5/ petra1 can you provide in the Bible, leaving nothing merely implied, verses where believers are explicitly asked to ''pray in tongue(s)''?

birdman:
read 1 Corinthians again. there are tongues of angels. and tongues that edify but no interpretation. interpretation is not always necessary

There are no and nothing like tongues of angels, what you read in 1 Corinthians 13:1, is a hypothetical and hyperbole remark.

As I had before explained with the example like this: "To show how much I love him, if I have one million dollars, I will dash birdman", doesnt necessarily men I have one millions dollars, but it is a hypothetical and hyperbole statement to make a point with, it is the same with the If in 1 Corinthians 13:1-2 too, that says: "¹If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. ²If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.". The "If", in 1 Corinthians 13:1, is a Conditional Particle Or Conjunction, in a hypothetical and hyperbole statement done to make a point with about the importance of needing to have love first and above anything but you chose to ignore this and prefer to place too much emphasis on "tongues of angels" and believing that there are "heavenly languages or tongues of angels" Why didnt Jesus or any of the disciples participate in and/or do any of these "heavenly languages or tongues of angels" things, huh Goshen360, petra1 and birdman?

IrawoOmoniyi:
He shld tell us what he will do with education. He has not bn talking much in education

Finekunlex:
Not sure about dt too bt na corruption be the problem of this country. If that is out under Sowore, education go make sense

"Presidential candidate of the African Action Congress (AAC), Omoyele Sowore, has said he will provide free education across all levels if elected. Sowore said this in a statement on Monday where he added that he will also pay students of tertiary institutions N100, 000 every session."
- https://www.concisenews.global/2019/01/21/2019-sowore-promises-free-education-n100000-study-allowance/

He countless time on campaign trails, town hall meetings and on TV interviews has said free education up to tertiary levels

Akin1212:
Lol, there's no level of ignorance I will not see here on Nairaland.

Is a lion not an animal?
Is a goat not an animal?
Is a human not an animal?

The same way a lion will never ever mate successfully with a goat or any other animal is how a human will not mate successfully with other animals, but that does not make a human being less of an animal.

Lion can mate with other animals in same genus as it is, case in point male lion to a female tiger, or a male tiger with a female lion. similar with male donkey and a female horse to get a mule. Now tell me, what will human beings mate with and successfully reproduce with?

Akin1212:
Your humanistic ego might not let you accept this fact, but humans are animals and nothing can change that. There is nothing like more than being animals. There is no classification called human, humans fall under the kingdom Animalia.

You people should stop embracing ignorance.

In ordinary use, animal means all living beings except humans: A lion is a wild animal, and a dog is a domestic animal
ANIMAL | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/animal

Synonyms: Noun
beast, beastie, brute, creature, critter

Listen, my friend, we know the real meaning of the word human is an animal belonging to the genus Homo but I feel sorry for you if you think you're an animal. Animal is a word, human beings use to explain what is not a human. Case in point, when someone does something "animalistic" we use the word animal against them, to call out their behavior. Yoruba will call such person "eranko meh"and Ibo might say "ewu"

Academicians, might say we are animals, but who wants that distinction? You? Have I got your blessing and permission to call you animal from now on whenever I feel like?

You've been like a dog with a bone with TV01 on this. Kilode? Give it a rest, its not worth it.

TV01:
Do you find it hard to accept that humans are more than animals?

Akin1212:
Humans are nothing but animals, not higher nor lower than animals. And this is backed by embryology, comparative anatomy, physiology and biochemistry

Humans are human, animals are animals, what so difficult in that to acknowledge, afterall each has its distinctiveness that separate one from the other. Humans will never ever mate and successfully reproduce with any living animal, and so just shows that humans, regardless of closeness in embryology, comparative anatomy, physiology and biochemistry with some animals are not animals but are more than being animals.

Akin1212:
Whatever you subjectively think does not in any way affect that fact!

Subjectivity does not in any way play into this reality at all

Goshen360:
My brother, u just trying to either prey on truth or understand truth. The last time u n i had this discussion u didn't answer the question I asked u but I'll ask you ask you again,what language doesn't someone or anybody speak that no man UNDERSTANDS.

PLEASE TELL US......NOT YORUBA OR HAUSA OR ETC

You have never asked me a question that I ever have avoided replying back to, if you think, I had, repeat the question here again, in verbatim, if you are unable to, then please retract your unfounded accusation and also apologise.

What language doesn't someone or anybody speak that no man UNDERSTANDS, as I have numerous times told you, is not heavenly language nor is it angelic language. What language doesn't someone or anybody speak that no man UNDERSTANDS is exactly as I have given in the various illustration earlier, it is speaking an earthly and human being language another person doesnt speak or knows. Speaking in an unknown tongue has always been according to bible, speaking an understably recognised earthly and human being language

Now as I had before explained with a similar hypothetical and hyperbole example like this: "To show how much I love him, if I have one million dollars, I will dash Goshen360", doesnt necessarily men I have one millions dollars, but it is a hypothetical and hyperbole statement to make a point with, it is the same with the If in 1 Corinthians 13:1-2 too, that says: "¹If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal. ²If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.".The "If", in 1 Corinthians 13:1, is a Conditional Particle Or Conjunction, in a hypothetical and hyperbole statement done to make a point with but you chose to ignore this and prefer to place too much emphasis on "tongues of angels" and believing that there are "heavenly languages or tongues of angels" Why didnt Jesus or any of the disciples participate or do these "heavenly languages or tongues of angels" things hun Goshen360?

Goshen360:
There is nowhere in scripture u have a man speaking OR PRAYING in tongues that NO MAN OR CONGREGATION can understand. If u have one insident show it to us.... that's my WHOLE POINT FOR STARTING THIS THREAD.....do u understand me now?

If you believe this remark then why are praying in an unknown tongue, and doing so, like you do, in private, as in when alone?
cc Petra1, TruthinAction, CodeTemplar, Emusan, InansBobo, EMILO2STAY, TATIME, birdman

TruthinAction:
How does the Holy Spirit help you to pray. It is through tongues. It is the language of the Holy Spirit. It can not be uttered in articulate speech.

You don't know what you are missing until you get into the realm of the supernatural through speaking in tongues. Please remain in your ignorance. I am sailing on on the wings of the Holy Spirit.

This is a very good and profound question and verses, like John 3:8, John 4:24 and Romans 8:26, promptly flashed through my mind when about to respond to you.

The Spirit is free, it is like a wind, we dont see it, we cant touch it but we can sense it, we can hear it. It moves, one minute it is quiet and still, next minute, it can be howling and noisily slammimg doors shut

God is a Spirit, we pray in the spirit to associate oneself with what is happening or about to happen in the Spirit realm, with what is hapening in the Spirit's world, as in God's great/​grand scheme of things. When we pray in the spirit, we literally are positioning our "satellite dish or antenna" for good and maximum signal strength to get sharp pictures and/or clear broadcasts from God as pray in tune or in accordance with His "Thy will be done" and not our will

Without tuning in, (i.e. without praying in the spirit) distortions, bad reception, ugly feedbacks, clashing stations etcetera will be the end product, and we end up praying out of tune. So, by the way Jude 1:20 has nothing to do speaking in tongues but means what it says out of the tin. It means to literally, pray in the Holy Spirit, as in, like, to pray in line with the Spirit, similar to that ''thy will be done and not my will'' Jesus' prayer and not to be praying in some uninteligible and inarticulate language

Petra1 & TruthinAction, you are in a gathering comprising of like minded people with Igbo, Yoruba, Fulani, Hausa, Edo etcetera backgrounds,
who dont speak nor understand each other's unknown languages (i.e. each others language is unknown to the other),the only common language each undersands is English, now when it is time to pray, teach or preach, which language in the absence of interpretation, will you speak, pray, teach or preach in?
What language please?
cc Goshen360, CodeTemplar, Emusan, InansBobo, EMILO2STAY, TATIME

petra1:
That only applies to prophecy. Theres is difference between praying to God and speaking to Gods people in unknown tongues.

For Jews demand miraculous signs (i.e. ask for signs)
and Greeks ask for wisdom (i.e. philiosophy)
- 1 Corinthians 1:22

"So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers.
Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers."
- 1 Corinthians 14:22

There is nothing like a difference between praying to God and speaking to Gods people in unknown tongues.
Why would you or anyone else for that matter want to or need to pray and/or speak to God in an unknown laguage or tongue?

For all the 3 recorded times, speaking in other tongues, occurred in the bible, it is visibly noted that, it happened each time, for the benefit of unbelieving Jews. Now, for those, that might have been misinformed, it is a well documented truth, as seen in 1 Corinthians 14:22 above that speaking in tongues is not for believers, rather it is occurs for and as a sign, for unbelievers (i.e. 1 Corinthians 1:22a)

Remember, Paul, in 1 Corinthians 12:29, asked:
"Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? "
Guess what. The answer on each account is No, no, no and no.

Moving along, then at 1 Corinthians 12:31, Paul says:
"but petra1 & TruthinAction covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."
and it was after that comment in 1 Corinthians 12:31, that Paul introduced and brought in 1 Corinthians 13:1 emphasising love

Paul, in 1 Corinthians 12:29 onwards, confirmed that not "all fingers are equal" and 1 Corinthians 12:29's "Do all speak in tongues?" is an strong indication, that, to speak in tongues, is not a requirement for all believers. petra1 & TruthinAction, to be honest with you, if you have love, you wouldnt neccesarily need the gift of speaking in tongues and that is because love surpasses and conquers all.

petra1 & TruthinAction, you and I, know many so called self styled tongues speaking christians and believers, who do not have love, yet regularly during prayer sessions, all are called upon and propelled by pastors/worship leaders to start "speaking in tongues" and pray in tongues. You then remember 1 Corinthians 14:27–28, and begin wondering, do the pastors/worship leaders telling people to start "speaking in tongues" and pray in tongues have cognisance of scriptures like that?

I can go on, as I have many more things to say, but will pause at this juncture, if not, will risk it all become an information overload. Any questions asked to clarify or shed more light will be welcomed

petra1:
When a man prays in the spirit it, is like charging a battery. It edfies him. It builds

This is false teaching and ill-informed opinions that have no biblical or scriptural backing

petra1:
1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

"⁹Ya mere, kpenu ekpere otú a:
Nna-ayi Nke bi n'elu-igwe, Ka edo aha-Gi nsọ.
¹⁰Ka ala-eze-Gi bia. Ka eme ihe nāchọ,
dika esi eme ya n'elu-igwe, ka eme kwa otú ahu n'uwa.
¹¹Nye ayi nri ta nke gēzuru ayi n'ubọchi ta.
¹²B͕aghara kwa ayi ugwọ nile ayi ji,
dika ayi onwe-ayi b͕agharawo-kwa-ra ndi ji ayi ugwọ.
¹³Ewebàla ayi nime ọnwunwa,
kama dọputa ayi n'aka ajọ onye ahu.

petra1 and TruthinAction, please be a sport and recite out loud, the above prayer for me.
Can you? Did you manage to recite it? Were you able to recite it?
Do you and/or did you know what the above prayer is about?
Did you hear what you recited out loud? Did you understand what you recited out loud?

Now imagine you reciting a Yoruba version of the above prayer amidst an Igbo audience that dont understand jack diddly-squat word in Yoruba.
Who do you think gets built up with this unknown tongue (i.e. the Yoruba prayer) you're reciting in, whilst amongst this an entirely Igbo audience?
Who do you think gets edified, with the Yoruba version of the above prayer, which according to the Igbo audience, their spirit prayeth is this unknown tongue, but their understanding is unfruitful?
It is only the Yoruba man that understands the unknown togue that the Igbo audience are repeating that gets edified, not them, except if it is translated. Do you with this, get the correct meaning of 1 Corinthians 14:4 now?

Its a hardest thing of all, to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat.

petra1:
Jude 1:20
But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Secondly, praying in tongues is the only way one can pray perfectly, when a man prays in the spirit it Is no longer him that prays. The holy ghost prays through him according to the will of God. So people pray in tongues because it's the best way to pray perfectly according to Gods will.

For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God:
for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries
- 1 Corinthians 14:2 KJV

Here is an illustration of what 1 Corinthians 14:2 is saying:
If you speak and understand only Ibo, but I, bilingual in Ibo and Hausa, start to speak, preach or pray in Hausa
Then the Hausa tongue or language would be unknown to you, you wouldnt understand what I said, preached or prayed in Hausa
I wouldnt be communicating with/to you, as it all be mysteries to you what I said, preached or prayed in Hausa
Only God will understand what I said, preached or prayed in Hausa, not you, as God understands all languages or tongues

What is best in praying in an unknown tongue like in the above illustration, what is perfect in that kind of praying?

petra1:
Rom 8:26
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


So we have to balance the two. We pray in the spirit and we pray also with our language of understanding .

Speaking in tongues is biblical and its usually done for the unbelievers' sake (e.g. not-believing Jews etcetera). On top of that, NT, prefers you prophesy, than speaking in tongue(s), so, yes, I believe in all the gifts of the Holy Spirit but not in the falsehood perpetrated in today's believers gathering and so, I havent for once, ever written against speaking/praying in tongue, but I have all along being exposing the falsehood of most of today's allegedly speaking in unknown tongues. It seems some just have a high psychological dependence of needing to speak and/or pray in false and/or make believe unknown tongues

petra1:
1Co 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

When an Ibo recites a prayer in a Yoruba language he doesnt know or understand
Though he prayed in a Yoruba tongue, and in the spirit he prayed along too,
the fact remains that, because he doesnt understand Yoruba language, he didn't know what he said in that Yoruba prayer.

Paul was saying:
What was the point of the Ibo praying in a Yoruba language and in the spirit, without understanding what he just prayed in the Yoruba language? (i.e. the mind is unfruitful)

When he further said:
Listen, when I pray in the spirit, I pray with my mind also. I sing in the spirit and I will sing in the mind also
He meant that whenever you talk, preach, teach, sing etcetera, do them all with understanding what you are talking, preaching, teaching, singing etctera because when you do this way and are done or finished, how will others be in agreement with you since, when and if they dont or wouldnt know what you've all along been saying

²⁷If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret;
²⁸But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
- 1 Corinthians 14:27-28

"For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left
- Hebrews 10:26

Aside, from the above clear 1 Corinthians 14:27-28 guideine and Hebrews 10:26 biblical warning, recognise that 1 Co 14:14 even without illustrations, is so simple to understand without complications or being made complex

The truth of matter is that people dont want to come to terms with knowing that speaking in tongues as done in that YouTube video, and elsewhere nowadays in most other gatherings is not the same as the ones done in biblical times. Lets be honest to admit that it is miles apart and different to what is witnessed, widespread and generally practised in today's gathering now and to know that Paul instructions is to stop speaking in tongues, if there is no interpretation, is a hard pill for hardcore people to swallow.

Paul, as we know, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, advised against corporate and gathering speaking in tongues, but pride and ego prevents people from acknowledging and/or registering this. Case in point, the YouTube video and also like when everybody, at the same time, are prompted to start speaking in tongues. SMH

petra1 & TruthinAction, can you provide in the Bible, leaving nothing merely implied, verses where believers are explicitly asked to ''pray in tongue(s)''?

Lets just up the ante a bit with these few cross-questions instead of beating about the bush with just the above question

1/ Do you accept that praying in the Holy Ghost (i.e. praying in the spirit) is not a synonymous for ''praying in tongue''?
2/ Do you also accept that the disciples, none of the Apostles (e.g. Paul etcetera) did not ''pray in tongues''?
3/ I have read about ''speaking in tongues edifies the church'' but never read in the Bible about ''praying in tongues edifies the church'', so would you mind sharing, which scriptures says: "praying in tongues edifies the church"
4/ You are creating an alternative fact by saying: ''praying in tongue is the best way to pray perfectly according to Gods will, and erroneously using Rom 8:26 to falsely back the remark up with''. If you arent, then please explain with examples how you came about this interpretation, then I will put forward same after yours
cc Goshen360, CodeTemplar, Emusan, InansBobo, EMILO2STAY, TATIME

Hermes019:
You are still repeating what you have been saying
I don't have an issue with what you believe, you can believe that souls can feel pain without the nervous system
I want to know the mechanism that would produce such pain its either you know it or you don't
I don't know why we are going over this again,so let me ask you directly
Mutteylaff do you know the mechanism/process through which souls would feel pain since the one we know(the nervous system) is absent ?

P.S the bolded in ur post is your personal opinion there is no reason for me to agree with that,pain can not come out from anywhere,it must have a mechamism

Hermes019, when one is dead, there is no body, so expectedly, there's no more a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part to convey or transmit the pain message. This is a fact and not an opinion Hermes019

You have an issue with the truth, not what I believe in, what I believe in doesnt matter, it is the truth that matters, and that truth, which doesnt fit the bets you're try to hedge on, which doesnt align with your agenda, is that, pain can be and will be felt, in absence of a body, absence of a nervous system or other bodily mechanism

Hermes019:
Ihedinobi what do you think,do you agree with him ?

The question you should have asked, is that, is what I wrote in the bible or not. Was the rich man in the parable tormented or not tormented, did the bile say or not that there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Hermes019:
You are right but in this context we are bringing it down to the actual mechanism that creates the effect,the "cause" is not the stimulus(hell),the cause is the nervous system.

Do you know that, Jesus, after resurrection, walked through a wall, or was it door?

alBHAGDADI:
To my Christian Brothers in the house.

Matthew 6:1-3 (KJV)
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

You this man and bad belle sha
You wouldnt be writing this and singing this tune, if he did it as first fruits or tithe giving

sanpipita:
Glad you followed up the purported assault case, sometimes you could find liberals in america do things like that just to stir outrage, we already know there are racist and homophobia issues but no point lying and creating even more a bigger issue for the truly racist and homophobic victims

I kid you not, that I actually had doubts about the assault on the guy, call it a sneaking suspicion, if you may, but I just shrugged it off, to let empathy have its way

petra1:
Theres nothing out of place in the video. It is allowed by scriptures to pray openly in tongues its between you and God . And I am not aware that God needs our interpretation. Interpretation is only required if you are speaking for men or to men . But not to God.

Except you do such thing, you dont have to come defend the indenfensible, when there are guidelines in the bible that clearly and without doubt states not to be speaking in tongues without interpretation. Besides that, why and what is the benefit, speaking in language you dont understanding what is being said? Why cant you, why dont you prefer to speak and/or pray in a language, you understand? Dont you want to know what the content(s) of you are saying are? Also where in the bible, had anyone pray in tongues, talkless pray openly in tongues?

TruthinAction:
Speaking in tongues help you to pray according to the will of God - Romans 8:26.

Speaking in tongues edifies you or keeps you on a high charge. You don't need to smoke weed to be high when you can speak in tongues.

Speaking in tongues helps you to pray for the unknown. There are things you don't know that is about to happen but the Holy Spirit knows. You just receive the signal in your spirit that something wrong is about to happen. That is the best time to speak in tongues. The moment you do that, the danger is averted. This is why a tongue speaking believer can't die before his time. You can fall victim of assassins or kidnappers. There is an inner power at work in you.

Speaking in tongues takes you to the place of visions and revelations. You see things that are yet to happen as God reveals them to you.

Speaking in tongues makes your spirit more sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Speaking in tongues helps you to stay in divine health.

Speaking in tongues builds a wall of protection round you and makes it difficult for evil men to hurt you.

There are many more benefits. The devil does not want people to know about this. So, he uses ignorant people to condemn it and discourage many from receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I don't expect you to easily believe all I have said but my prayer is that you and everyone reading will experience it one day and tell your testimony. It makes your life supernatural.

I havent in awhile read nor come across a confused and disconcerted post such as this before

I am going to allow you redeem yourself with the following:
1/ Please repeat what Romans 8:26 says
2/ Explain in details with examples what that Romans 8:26 means
3/ Did the bible say or not say, speaking in tongues is not for the believers, but that it is for the unbelievers or the unbelieving?
4/ Is speaking in tongues downplayed in the Bible or not, in favour of the gift of prophecy?

Hermes019:
If this be the case then doesn't it show that as human beings we can not imagine what naturr of "pain" hell fire would cause ?

Ihedinobi3:
Yes indeed, it does, as I believe I mentioned earlier. We have loads of wiggle room with free will. Because we must be free to decide to submit to God or not to as we please, spiritual realities are largely kept hidden from us. For example, the locations of both the Third Heaven where God's Throne currently is and Hades where the Abyss, Torments and the empty Paradise are and which the Lake of Fire will fill in the end are inaccessible to us humans even though angels can access them easily.

So, we can receive what the Bible says as Truth or we can insist that unless we see things for ourselves we won't believe. This choice is exactly the same as choosing to trust God or to reject Him.
We cannot imagine what Hell is like. Really, if we could, nobody would dare to disobey God. But now we know that God says that it exists and that it is unpleasant in the extreme. We can believe that and submit to God. Or we can deny it and rebel against Him. That is how true free will works.

Hermes019, we can imagine what hell is like because of the narrative of the famous parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, in it, the rich man is begging for a dip of the tip of Lazarus' finger in water to cool his tongue as he is tormented in there. He even additionally begged to have his brothers be warned about the place, but his request wasnt granted. Elsewhere, like I previously mentioned, the bible, also about fiery furnace, said there will be weeping there and gnashing of teeth in there, obviously not to be taken literally, but still

Ihedinobi3:
@MuttleyLaff

As I always do, I am offering you formal notice that I am quitting this discussion. I have considered reasons to continue and do not find them compelling enough to proceed. A particularly compelling reason is your misrepresentation of things that I have said but I think that any honest person reading the exchange will see where you have. Clarifying would only prolong a pointless conversation.

However, for the purposes of clarity, I will summarize what I consider the most important things to me in this discussion:

Touching the subject exclusively:

1. Judging only by what the Bible itself actually says, Genesis 6 documents a monumental event in human history which was about God's Love for the Human Race, namely, the global flood that made sure that the Savior would still be born to save humanity.

2. That is, the event we have been discussing was a deliberate attempt by Satan to prevent the birth of the Savior and the deliverance of the human race. His cohorts, who had already demonstrated their taste for physical existence and experience, took for themselves women from among human beings with whom they produced the Nephilim.

3. The Nephilim were hybrids who possessed physical durability and intellectual ability as well as superhuman ability that made them desirable as relatives. This is natural. Women (and certainly men) have always had a desire to produce children of be related to people of exceptional qualities. So, in time, the Nephilim strain had pretty much overrun the human species.

4. By the time Noah was born, there were very few humans left. At the time that God intervened, "all flesh [had] corrupted its way upon the earth". Pure humanity was a seriously endangered species by that time.

5. Now, because of the incredible durability and abilities of the Nephilim, even if there were a group of human beings who were willing to fight, the Nephilim are very hard to kill even if you could outsmart them in a fight. For this reason, only God's intervention would be able to eliminate them from the picture and guarantee the perpetuity of the human line so that His Promise of a Savior would be fulfilled.

6. Hence, a global flood which covered the earth long enough to make sure that the Nephilim all died.

7. This was really all that Genesis 6 was about: the preservation of the human race, not merely the punishment of evil since evil is always present in human beings.

8. It is merely tangential that rebel angels demonstrated sexual desire there.


Having said that,

1. You obviously have less respect than a believer ought to have for the Bible. This puts you in far greater danger than you appear to have any concept of.

2. You also are too arrogant to appreciate that everyone has a God-given right to believe and teach whatever they please. They will answer to God for how they use their free will, not to you.

3. You are quick to deny all sorts of things including that you offer yourself as a teacher of the Bible, but you actually do offer yourself as one. So, let me warn you: be very careful what you tell other people that God says. You will not get away with misleading anybody at all about God's words. In fact, you will have greater condemnation from Him than anybody else can have if you do.

4. It is in your best interest to never add anything to what the Bible says or to take anything away from it. This is related to #1 and #3 above. Leave the Bible as it is. If you do not understand it, be diligent in seeking and praying for a gifted and prepared teacher to explain it to you. Do not seek anything outside the Bible to explain the Bible.

"I've noticed you need to put more effort in understanding my bullshits, here is another bullshit, in form of an epiphany disguised in a question:"
- by MuttleyLaff: 12:32am On Jan 12

"I appreciate you recognising good bullshit when you see it.
I serve it steaming and sizzling hot. I do soft and tough bullshits"
- by MuttleyLaff: 4:14pm On Jan 01

"Yep that's my speciality, dishing out tough bullshit"
- by MuttleyLaff: 10:13pm On Dec 31, 2018

"Mark this down, my speciality is dishing out tough bullshit.
I am bullshit, you are bullshit stain."
- by MuttleyLaff: 9:04pm On Dec 25, 2018

"Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God."
- 1 John 3:21

I give you the liberty to lay whatever accusations you lay your hands upon and adjectives you deem fit, on me. As you can see from the two, three or four above aforementioned inverted commas quotes I relish good bullshit and at times dont even give a bullshit, so Ihedinobi3, I havent got anything more to say than that except that I never for once, lived in a fools paradise, that all fingers are equal in length. Also that truth crushed to earth, is truth still and like a seed will rise again. It wasnt my intention to rile you up and so why I will keep mum and let peace reign

Hermes019:
Ok, so in conclusion what is the mechanism?

Ihedinobi3 and I have already told you in different, similar and same ways, but you dont want to accept and acknowledge that in this context after death and without a human body, we are talking of a non-spatial phenomenon, the pain is observed to exist without any involvement of a nervous system, mechanism or other bodily part that conveys the pain message.

Hermes019:
If this be the case then doesn't it show that as human beings we can not imagine what naturr of "pain" hell fire would cause ?

I laughed so hard at this comment that I almost knocked over my glass of rouge. I earlier told you I know why you are so concerned about this pain and your obsession to know the mechanism of feeling it

Why arent you interested in the pleasures therein, of being in Abraham's bosom, which now is paradise, instead of this preoccupation with knowing the mechanism for the pain. If I am none the wiser, I would have thought that, it's like your are trying to shack yourself up and prepare yourself for the place with the knowledge you might have obtained or extracted from this thread. Anyway like I've said earlier, I know why you are devoted to this question

Michellekabod2:
Good day NLs.

I do apologise for the delay on my conversion story, being damn busy.

Approximately three months ago, I surfed nairaland and then stumbled upon a thread(https://www.nairaland.com/4923763/please-tell-ushow-got-thought/2#74245802), and then was displeased by the Op who was (perhaps is) an apologist.

Prior to this I stumbled upon a moniker called jesusjnr. Never really read his topics but I somehow knew he was different from other Christians.

My six sense accepted him and then I spewed out "... jesusjnr is the only Christian that earns my respect".

That was the beginning of a sweet bitter journey

I don't believe in endings, I believe this is just the beginning of the beginning.
Every day is a beginning of something new.

That day I quoted him, I got a response from him. And then we had an argument about whether it was my intuition or the holy spirit that endorsed him

Meanwhile he warned me about a charlatan(Christian) that engaged me in conversation. It fell on deaf ears.

The scales dropped off my eyes when the said Christian Nlander blatantly said abortion was never a sin, there was nothing wrong in homosexuality, and also endorsed fornication indirectly.

To be continued tomorrow
Cc: jesusjnr,Dantedasz, brodalokie, IAmSabrina, Atewo400, alfaman3, sukerefakere, hahn, frosbel2, Joseph1013, jujusugar, hopefullandlord, HappyPagan, Hardmirror, seun, fleximor, budaatum, et al.

That "Please Tell Us,how You Got The Thought "There Is No God Almighty" thread opened by lightblazingnow was a roller coaster thread that moved on, changed and went up and down in varied and/or dramatic ways.

I believe everything happens for a reason, and it just shows good things can and do come out of bad environment and/or worst situations. There is always a glimmer of hope for other badasses. The door is not shut close yet

ElidaxZiel:
It nice to hear from you, but you are still making a big mistake, there is nothing like porting from Atheism to Jesus , Jesus is not for the Christians but the whole world

We should all try not to personalized THEM, because THEY are for the whole world

Thanks

Please clarify or explain with details, how you mean with the above emboldened

Hermes019:
I guess the answer is not in your bible, hence you resort to quoting human philosophy, @ the bolded is false, pain can not be felt without the nervous system being involved and I used an anaesthetic to demonstrate that

Hermes019 you know as well as I do, that I have already shown you where in the bible, without the nervous system being involved, discomfort and/or pain is felt, now I literally just had to laugh out loud at the sneaky games you are playing at, like avoiding to mention me, so I wont reply you back and clutching at straw, saying that lady of blessed memory who is a believer, made that remark using human philosophy

Hermes019:
u have not presented even one mechanism and that is the problem I wish to point out

You see, I know why you are so concerned about this pain issue but your problem is that you dont want to accept and acknowledge that in this context after death and without a human body, we are talking of a non-spatial phenomenon, the pain is observed to exist without any involvement of a nervous system or other bodily part to convey the pain message.

Hermes019:
you christians don't have any explanation to anything all you have is your belief and even when an explanation is brought forth you would not waste time to dispute it if it negates ur belief

Hermes019 dont get personal and becoming unneccesarily frustrated. There is a distinction between beliefs and truth, beliefs are not necessarily truths. I will again advise you to confirm what light you're looking at, is it a glow or might it be a glare?

TruthinAction:
I have been saved from several dangers through speaking in tongues. I have escaped assassination on my life because I pray in tongues. There are so many benefits of speaking in tongues and it is Scriptural.

Why do people believe the lies they hear, but not the truth they read and see in the Bible?

It's amazing the lies that people are ready to believe about themselves and especially in relation to the gift of speaking in tongues, when the truth about the gift of speaking in tongues, actually much more interesting, is that the bible says, the benefit of the gift of speaking in tongues is for unbelievers and/or the unbelieving. It never suggested nor says, the benefit(s) of the gift of speaking in tongues, can be used as a weapon to prevent assasination attempts with

TruthinAction:
If you are quoting Jesus, why didn't you quote where he said that those who believe in him will speak in other tongues?

EMILO2STAY:
and they did speak in other languages
earthly languages I mean and they prophesied also or did you miss that one?

TruthinAction:
They also spake in tongues that could not be interpreted otherwise Apostle Paul will not ask them to pray for interpretation.

If you were a member and/or part of the cosmopolitan set up of Corith or Ephesus, which included people from many different countries found all over the world, then it is wise and common sense to advise to pray for interpretation

DeOTR:
@MuttleyLaff, Jesus never teaches the doctrine of immortal soul, neither did he talk about man being conscious spiritually after death. You'll know this if you read the verse where he raised Lazarus from the dead :

DeOTR, please reproduce verbatim where and when MuttleyLaff advanced anything about a "doctrine of immortal soul". If you are unable to, which I am quite sure would be the case, please then retract that statement you launched at me and ask for clarification of my comment if not sure of what I've typed

DeOTR:
John 11:11-14 ...'These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.'

So Jesus spoke of death as sleeping. Not about going to heaven or hell when we die, but sleeping. And until when do we sleep in the grave?
Martha knew the answer ...
John 11:23-24 ...'Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.' ...
You see Martha knew that Lazarus would rise again at the resurrection, which would be Jesus' second coming, but as we know, Jesus decided to resurrect Lazarus there and then.

It's as simple as ABC.

You are conflating two Lazaruses my friend. There was Lazarus, the real human being plus a friend of Jesus and there was Lazarus, the hypothetical or imaginary human being in the famous parable. The two are chalk and cheese

The thing that is as simple as ABC, is that every dead person really is sleeping, as they are oblivious to what is happening in the land of the living.

Next time, question me, ask me questions to clear up whatever I have typed, instead of jumping to conclusions and incorrectly saying things I never advanced, say or mean

Also DeOTR what is your take on angels allegedly impregnating human beings.

Hermes019:
@Ihedinobi3, Mutteylaff I would have loved to address what each of u said specifically but I'm afraid we would end up arguing on transient stuff and the question I would remain unanswered
Let's define Pain Physiologically

Pain is the response from the body,orchestrated by the nervous system when the "pain centres" in the brain are sensitized

Following this definition we can see that pain is a function of the nervous system,pain can not be felt without the nervous system being present.
If the spirit/soul whichever of them that is cast in hell does not possess the nervous system then how can pain occur

I know that you believe that the spirit/soul feels pain,my question is how ?
Its just like saying that a living thing can "see" without possessing the eyes

The answer I want to get is the process/mechanism that would enable a supposed being feel pain if the mechanism/process that we know of is absent ?

The moniker is MuttleyLaff and not Mutteylaff and to be honest with you Hermes019, you are just being difficult, now continue reading on for more of my response next below

BeLookingIDIOT:
Why do you find it hard believing that the Almighty who creates the mechanism behind pain cant also make you feel pain without that mechanism?
Lets not forget that what we can possibly explain is the physical mechanism of pain,but not the feeling itself. This also includes our feelings of emotions- happiness, love, hate, fear, hunger, our feeling of self...you name it- All this transcends a physical explanation.

You are a confirmed god for making this, very deep, profound and very beautiful statement

Hermes019:
make no mistake, I am not asking you not to believe what you choose, belief is very easy its not the problem here, some other people believe that we reincarnate into other forms of life when we die, anyone can believe whatever they like, what I am asking for is a logical explanation, its either you have one or you don't
I agree that "feelings" may not be vividly explainable since they are intangible but there are mechanisms responsible for them and I want to find out the ones responsible for the "feelings" a spirit/soul has

"^26aThen God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...
^27aSo God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them;"
- Genesis 1:26a-27a

First Hermes019, please why just cant you take to being corrected not to keep mistaking spirit for Soul. The two are distinct and different from each other. We are not human beings on a spiritual journey. We are souls, infused with the breath ruach of God, that makes us spiritual beings on a human journey, having a human being experience on earth

Now Hermes019, you are familiar with Genesis 1:26a-27a above, I am sure, but then about your continuing and prolonged demanding for an explanation for the mechanisms responsible for pain, well, I once read a woman, I think Vanna Bonta RIP, is her name, who said:
"The body knows no pain, not like the soul. At least a nerve has limits, a body part a name. But the soul... the soul... There is no bandage ..." so the fact of the matter, is that pain can be felt with or without physical impulses or mechanisms to convey the pain message because pain originally is an image of something else not physical or be felt with physical mechanisms

Zuorom:
What happened to Jussie Smollett again

Dont mind the joker. He apparently according to the Chicago police in cahoot with two Nigerian brothers orchestrated a plan to have him look like he was jumped on by two masked men, set upon, and grievous bodily harmed because he is gay

Hermes019:
Oh lawd, how many times am I going to explain these things
Emotions are the handwork of the nervous system
The brain is the centre of the whole stuff, if the spirit or soul doesn't have the nervous system how does it "feel" anything, what is the mechanism ?

My dear friend, you did not pick up on the point I was trying to get you understand with using that grieving the spirit picture.

Hermes019, you know what grief is, right? The point is the soul can feel pain, sorrow, be hurt, be distressed independently of feeling them via organs or a nervous system. Case in point, the rich man in that famous parable, begging for a dip of the tip of Lazarus' finger in water to cool his tongue as he is tormented in hell. The other point is that, after death and over at the other side, you feel

Now Hermes019 when you starve the ego (i.e. I mean the image you have of yourself and/or your social mask) but feed the soul (i.e. your spirit man/essence/true self being nourished) you do this with faculties and/or organs, in terms of feeding with ¹sight with eyes, ²hearing or listening with ears, ³somatosensation with the body/hands, ⁴when tasting with the mouth and last but not the least when ⁵smelling with the nose, now all these are possibilities that one doesnt, with organs or nervous system necessarily need to perceive with. When one says they smell a rat, they arent outrightly smelling a rat, but really are saying something is not right. They know.

I dont want to go into the deep end with you on what the physiology, details and/or intricacies of the spirit is, aside saying, Man is a spirit being, residing or housed in a Body and possessing a Soul. This means Man is made up of Body, Soul (i.e. uses the heart as an outlet) and spirit.
Now Hermes019, the Soul has the body and spirit on each opposite sides of it.

Mind you Hermes019, this next point is very important to note, and it is that the Soul is the most important existence of Man and that is why the battle is and always has been about or over the Soul. All attack is ultimately targeted at acquisition of the Soul.

I am only dipping feet in water here because of your comment that the "... Emotions are the handwork of the nervous system. The brain is the centre of the whole stuff..."
The thing Hermes019 is that the Body, just as I earlier advanced has 5 faculties of senses, which are, to see via the eyes, hear via the ears, feel via applicable part of the body, smell via the nose and taste via the mouth). Now interestingly, the faculties of the Soul comprises of the Mind (i.e. conscious and sub conscious) or Intellect, Will or Freewill, and Emotions and the faculties of the spirit comprises of Fellowship, Conscience, Discernment or Intuition

"Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says,
"He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us"?"
- James 4:5

"Their actions do not allow them to return to their God, for a spirit of promiscuity is among them, and they do not know the LORD."
- Hosea 5:4

Aside James 4:5 and Hosea 5:4 above, to keep in mind, Hermes019 please hold on and stay tight closely with me. Now, the Soul is the first medium key component of Man created by God and Man is tickled and accessed through this Soul by way of the body and spirit. As a matter of fact, without the spirit, the Soul will just be like a cartoon character on a comic strip but with the spirit, the cartoon character becomes animated. This is part of what the spirit does to the Soul, it brings the soul alive. You see, when God breathed into the nostril of Adam, He gave Adam, with this thing called "ruach", the breath of life and it made Adam become a living soul. This thing known as "ruach" is part of the essence of God that I earlier said, returns back to God, whenever a person draws their last breath

Remember I earlier mentioned that the Soul has the body and spirit on each opposite sides of it? Well, the Soul, in effective, is the mediator between the body and spirit, and this for particularly good reasons of which discussing further about that here will derail the thread

On another point. Are you familiar with the saying in Leviticus 17:11 and Deuteronomy 12:23 or Genesis 2:7, Job 33:4 and Job 27:3 that:
the LIFE of the FLESH is in the BLOOD and the LIFE of the SOUL is in the breath/SPIRIT

The BLOOD makes the difference between the life and death of the BODY
(i.e. when blood stops circulating, the SOUL departs/exits the body)
- a body without a soul becomes a corpse or dead body

The SPIRIT makes the difference between the life and death of the SOUL
(i.e. when spirit leaves, the SOUL is empty)
- a soul without spirit becomes a dead soul

"Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way,
and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless
until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again."
- 1 Thessalonians 5:23

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me."
- Psalm 51:10

The Spirit, Soul and Body have distinct and different roles to play, and up there, 1 Thessalonians 5:23 hints about keeping the three above board whilst Psalm 51:10 reveals how important a clean heart and right spirit is

The spirit, typifies what has to do with our relation to God or our consciousness of God (i.e. relation with what is more than ourselves)
the soul, typifies what has to do with our relation to ourselves or our self consciousness
the body, typifies what has to do with our relation to the physical and material world (i.e. relation with what is less than ourselves)

Hermes019, "hell" will hurt the Soul because the reality of the difficult, unpleasant, awkward and/or embarrassing situation it finds itself at that time in, will infuse it with anguish, regret, misery, depression, discomfort, anxiety and literally gnash and/or grit teeth in agitation

As you can see DeOTR has got a handle on this too but I do wonder what DeOTR's take is on angels impregnating human beings. Anyway, Sheol in an oversimplified or elementary manner can be grave or has been referred as grave

Grave/tomb/sepulchre sites are merely places of deposit for a corpse. Sheol is the realm of the dead or departed souls
- Souls do not linger in the air. Souls do not stay in limbo on. Souls do not hang about. Souls do not make revisits on family members, friends or detractors

Until Jesus in the New Testament, Sheol in general, without necessarily distinguishing between righteous or unrighteous souls, has been the realm of the dead or abode of the dead

We have verses in Old Testament (e.g. Psalm 9:17 etcetera) suggesting that the wicked go to Sheol but it was Jesus in the New Testament that brought things into perspective for us, when He shared the hyperbolic illustration of Sheol, and that was with the story of the Rich Man being elsewhere and Abraham with the Poor Man being on a different side. Now it important to remember this, that just because you're telling a joke, it doesnt necessarily mean the joke is devoid of some element of truth and reality in it, so same is to be understood with this parable

Sheol (i.e. the original Hebrew concept of afterlife) now has gray lines shared with gehenna (i.e. the refuse dump in Jerusalem hyperbolically referred to by Jesus in Matthew 5:29 Matthew 18:9 and Mark 9:47) and Hell (i.e. a Greek mythology and Greek concept of afterlife) which arent really understood. The etymology of afterlife from a Jewish concept (i.e. Sheol, with 2 sections) has changed over time and Sheol, since, when talking about the afterlife, has interchangeably being replaced with the words, gehenna and Hell/Hades.

Ihedinobi3:
The Bible does not tell us whether spirits can feel or not. What it does say is that rebel angels today are afraid of being put in the Abyss which is a place supernaturally devoid of light in every respect. Thus, we can believe that the Lake of Fire must be able to affect them unpleasantly too.

Hermes019:
Fear is a feeling, so going by what you said the bible does suggest that spirits can feel, I would come back to this.
Mutteylaff says when a person dies the spirit returns to YHWH while the soul faces judent,hence it is the soul that is cast into hell, are you in agreement with this ?

Ihedinobi3:
I phrased things like I did because we can "feel" material stimuli, like touch or heat etc, which are all things we experience as physical beings. But we can also "feel" joy or peace or anger which do not require any material stimulus so that being physical is not necessary for such feelings.

The Bible does not tell us that spirits experience material stimuli, so I cannot say categorically that they feel in that sense. But, of course, they can experience fear as a feeling as well as pleasure etc.

My concern is always with what the Bible says, so I will only answer you from that perspective.

1.
[7]then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
Ecclesiastes 12:7 NASB

This means that after death, our part is done and God's bit begins in earnest. To explain, yes, God rules Creation even while we live but He limits His influence to allow us to make free decisions about Him. But death ends our opportunity to freely make decisions about Him and then we must face the consequences of those decisions. This is what it means that our spirits return to God.

2.
[7]Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NASB

[45]So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Corinthians 15:45 NASB

The above means that man is a spirit which God created to live in a physical body. That is, man is not a body, soul and spirit. Rather, he is a soul which is what results from the creation of a spirit that lives in a physical body. Therefore, it is not possible to separate a spirit which goes to God from a soul which goes to hell.

3.
[28]Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 NASB

[22]Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
[23]In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
[24]And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
[25]But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:22-25 NASB

[2]Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
Daniel 12:2 NASB

[28]Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
[29]and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
John 5:28-29 NASB

[4]Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
[12]And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
[13]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
[15]And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:4,12-13,15 NASB

The first passage in the above should be read in light of those that follow. The point in that verse is that it is God Who is to be feared because He is the Only One Who can truly harm us in every way. When our bodies are destroyed, we will still live. In fact, when this earthly body dies, we are given another interim one with which we wait for either the Resurrection of the Righteous or the Judgment of the Great White Throne. It is only God Who can truly harm not just our earthly bodies but our whole being. That is what the Lake of Fire is designed to do. It can damage spirits which otherwise cannot be affected at all except by the Abyss and Torments (both of which are still part of Hell and will be filled with this Lake in the end).

As the following passages above show, there is no separation of spirit from soul for punishment. We are rewarded or punished in our full composition as human persons (that is what "soul" means).

"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
- Ecclesiastes 12:7

"For I won't accuse forever, nor will I always be angry; for then the human spirit would grow faint before me— even the souls that I have created."
- Isaiah 57:16

"Then the LORD said,
"My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh.
In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.""
- Genesis 6:3

I am not going to comment on all the above that Ihedinobi3 typed in response to you saying to him "Mutteylaff says when a person dies the spirit returns to YHWH while the soul faces judgement, hence it is the soul that is cast into hell" and then asking him the question "are you in agreement with this?" except that for him to post Ecclesiastes 12:7 which clearing states that "the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it", then I am cleared of any blame or suspicion of giving wrong information that isnt supported by the bible and I've been proven right by that verse and others like Isaiah 57:16 and Genesis 6:3 that the spirit does go back to God and that your Soul outlives you.

Make no mistake, we are breath-man, spirit-man who happen to be Souls, it is the breath of God, the ruach, the spirit that keeps the body and soul ticking on. When the last breath is drawn, the breath or spirit goes back to God and the Soul then departs this side of eternity. Ourselves, our Soul is like a ballon, it is like a ballon with air in it, and you know, as I dont have to explain what happens when there is air in balloons. We essentially are like balloons, we need air (i.e. ruach, God's breath and/or spirit source of life) inside, to become functional

The Bible, in Ezekiel 18:20 says, it is soul that sinneth, it shall die, it doesnt say it is the spirit that shall die. It also states in Ezekiel 18:4: "Behold, every soul belongs to Me; both father and son are Mine. The soul who sins is the one who will die", so please Hermes019, do not be, just like that be mixing up the soul with spirit. It is the Soul, that on judgement, will then, have to give account and explanations for every single deed, action, thought and statement it as a human being made whilst living on earth. God help the Soul, who has no Advocate to fight his or her corner for them, God have mercy on him or her who decides to represent themselves against Satan the Prosecutor

The devil doesnt hide the fact it is after the Soul, and all human beings to the devil are easy pickings, as the Soul is easy to steal, easy to get at when the spirit is subdued and/or killed off, so to attack, to steal and to destroy the Soul and all it owns, by weakening the spirit, by cutting off the Soul's access to God via a right, willing and vibrant spirit are all part of the devil's masterplan.

Though I've commented already on this but you still have repeated it again with Ihedinobi3, that: "If a person loses a dear one, there is no "physical" stimulus like heat or pressure but the person feels pain, all these are attributes of the nervous system particularly the brain, so the question I have posed is that you give an explanation (if you have one) of how a spirit/soul would feel pain if it doesn't have a nervous system", so let in a simplified way, say this, when the soul is hurt, it isnt something, it physically, is aware of through the senses, nervous system particularly the brain or whatnot, it just is aware of this and knows the feeling. When the Rich man in that famous parable asked for Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue, do you think there is a literal finger and tongue thing going on in there?

Hermes019, let me share with you another penny in the truth jar, you'll so far would have noticed that, the truth(s) in the Bible are like pearls mixed in with a lot of worthless pebbles, so the onus rests on you to sift through a lot of stuff, pick things up, look at them and when you stumble on pearls, to then dust them down, wipe, clean, brush and buff them until they bring out the shine, the luster, the sparkle and the light in them. Hermes019, note here, there is going to be two kinds of light, it could be a glow that illuminates or it might be a glare that obscures, but you will know which is which when it hits you.

And when you pray,
do not babble on like pagans,
for they think that by their many words they will be heard.
- Matthew 6:7

It has to be said, babbling that what was practised in the ancient world, which is glossalia, did predate the occurrence of speaking in tongues that happened on Pentecost day.

20th/21st century Christians however, openly and without any sense of embarrassment, did not only hijack glossalia (i.e. babbling) but took ownership of it, to pass, as speaking in tongues

The disconcerting thing is that, the one thing Jesus Christ warned against, as seen in Matthew 6:7 above, not to do, is exactly just what Christians and/or supposed believers have taken a shine to and delight in doing.
cc Goshen360, CodeTemplar, Emusan, TruthinAction, InansBobo, EMILO2STAY, TATIME

TV01:
Evening Gents,

Do some heavenly beings, specifically angels in this case, have sexual feelings? A mute point methinks. Sexual capability is more the question I feel. Whether the follow through was based on "feelings" or some other wider ranging desire.

This is detailed in Genesis 6, where the "sons of God, came into the daughters of men", which gave rise to the Nephilim, the fallen ones, who were indeed giants, but much besides.

Enochs writings are referenced in the scriptures and the book of Enoch, while not generally considered canonical, is in at least one canon and, non-canonicity does not in itself render writings untrue or untrustworthy. It goes into greater detail about this angelic incursion which led to mixed offspring, including the motivation, the result, the consequences and the judgement.

Not only does it align with the biblical narrative, but also other 2nd temple era Jewish writings. Indeed, most antique mythologies of that era and region can be traced back to the genesis 6 incursion. Think the Annunaki of Babylon, the Titans of Greece etc. I would heartily recommend other pseudepigrapha, especially those referenced in the Bible. I've also read Jasher - which was a great read to say the least - and aim to get round to Jubilees at some point.

Noah was without blemish. I believe this was more about physical purity than spiritual. The bible recounts how "all flesh" was corrupt. The ultimate consequence of this could have been to derail "the promise to the seed". Enoch could in effect be part of that lineage, as he was not physically corrupt.

I think it's also worth noting that the slander against God for what has been described as the wilfully capricious and genocidal instructions to totally annihilate some of the tribes of Canaan speak to this. They were descendants of the giants, not fully human or redeemable by the Lords sacrifice and, inter-marrying with them would have potentially catastrophic ramifications for the seed line.

All in all good to see that it's not just tithing that is in view and proper discussions still happen here.


Best
TV

^{...Ihedinobi3, I had no intention of posting but was so made up by seeing you here, just had to stop by and extend my warmest regards. I trust you are journeying well. God bless...}

TV01, real pleasure seeing you dive in.

The book of Enoch writing are referenced in the Bible by Peter and Jude not as a form of endorsing it but actually the mentioned parts of the book of Enoch in their letters was done to demystify to stories of angels impregnating human beings myths and stories that were going the rounds in and around that time.

Jude and Peter scolded people believing this story and even charged them of slandering the angels, further saying even fellow angels wouldn't think of slandering angels of what they are accused of.

I too aside the good book, read the bad and ugly books, that Book of Enoch is one nasty piece of work, that you literally do a SMH every now and then when reading it. No wonder, Paul too, aside Jude and Peter, warned against all these Jewish myths like including this one, doing the rounds back then and still does today.

Also "sons of God" incorrectly is popularly believed to be about angels and this is woefully untrue. Another thing is the Nephilim, they were the fallen ones, who happen to be off the lineage of Cain and incidentally were giants. Their population alarmingly increased when the the sons of God, who really are human beings who kept themselves originally pure and of a Seth descendant found the beauty of the daughters of men sexually attractive to and so went into them, ending up having burly kids that also are now smart.

So TV01, putting your head on the line, you believe that angels have capabilities to have sex with human beings and procreate giving children, right?

Martinez39:
Those I have argued with . Not all use this logic instead some would simply say "there is already enough evidence for the existence in nature."

There are more ways than one to skin a cat, is why.

Dantedasz:
Okay. I will give you and others a mention.

Dantedasz, just remember to credit me saying, I had conceded with you that Paul never mentioned the virgin birth of Jesus and said that because it wasnt a contention, but you want discuss the virgin birth of Jesus, and of course felt free to send me a mention invite, whenever you get round to opening a thread about it. Also that I suggested we can talk about the veracity of the virgin birth of Jesus, talk about the reason why it needed to be a virgin birth, talk how possible, it is for God, to perform this miraculous feat that is yet or ever to be repeated by any other