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Let me deal with this issue of people saying the Paul lied, Paul never said he lied, lets examine the scripture again
Rom 3:1-8 UKJV 1: What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2: Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3: For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4: God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That you might be justified in your sayings, (o. logos) and might overcome when you are judged.
5: But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who takes vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6: God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7: For if the truth of God has more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
8: And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
Paul was simply replying accusation that he was teaching lies esp by the Jews and was simply saying that is you say I'm lying but it is bringing so much Glory to God, then why call a sinner? because if Paul was lying his words would not bring such glory to God, let read the amplified version
7 But [you say] if through my falsehood God's integrity is magnified and advertised and abounds to His glory, why am I still being judged as a sinner?

8 And why should we not do evil that good may come?--as some slanderously charge us with teaching. Such [false teaching] is justly condemned by them.
So you see Paul was replying an accusation and never said he lied. Pls u guys should stop all this falsehood & deceiving people, pls say the whole truth instead of half truths.

RoyPCain: @noblefada; didn't Jesus say in the gospels that the holy spirit lives [within] in the disciples? Didn't Jesus say to them 'receive the holy spirit'? both incidences occurred in the gospels and gospels are supposed to be before acts, because in acts Jesus was no more there with them, but he was throughout the gospels.

how is it possible that what was supposed to be in them and with them forever suddenly left them? who is being disingenuous here? something is wrong because somebody or some group is lying. Did Jesus speak the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth about the holy spirit, or did Paul and you are the ones tell us the truth?

Jesus contain the holy spirit to only those disciples. You just said it departed from them and now rest in you, permanently because you accept what Paul said while disregarding what Jesus said.

I am going to take a leap of faith here based on Quran; what Jesus truly said was changed to first contained it to a holy spirit that does not talk and need not to listen because it is from the trinitarian concept. This way no one who comes in later in the world could possibly be deemed as the one spoken about by Jesus to restore monotheism to its original quality.

when the community realized that it makes those who will come into the fold of christianity as was later identified, they had to prolong the 'holy spirit' to a stretch where it will touch everyone that accepts what Paul imposed. With all of that, these holy ghost infected people, you included mr noblefada are not morally better than those of us without at all. i guess the effect of the holy ghost is zero if you ask me.


In my humble opinion to you mr. noblefada, since you are a 'noble' man with the holy ghost going and coming in you, people lied and their lies they dump on Jesus to carry for them as well as the wooden cross, so on the face of it, they seem legitimate. They know he is not able to defend himself against these lies until God let him returns. But by then, those whose who have accept it all would have been in billions and have passed on with the lies. Paul had been victorious over them, being a helper against Jesus. He had lied to make in his own word "so that God is gloried"!






Its shameful to propose that you are better than the disciples of Jesus because the holy spirit resides in you while I am sure you are not beyond temptations of every kind and you are proposing the disciples lost the holy spirit.


Holy spirit, in the context of what Jesus said should be expected was a God sent spiritual man, a prophet, the very man they ask John son of Zacharia about as "The Prophet". Only human prophet speaks to humans with what sent them, a major revelation as in Book; Torah [what was revealed on the occasion of the 10 Commandments], Injil [not the Gospels about Jesus], Psalm and Quran among others to include minor book; scroll.

I think u're mistaken or greatly misinformed. I never said the Holy Ghost left the disciples and came to me and there is nothing like Paul's HS (wondering where u got that from). There has always been and there is still only One Holy Spirit! The difference is in His residing. Before Jesus the same HS spirit was in Moses, David, the prophets but the problem was that it was not indwelling them permanently and that is why you will keep hearing and the Spirit came upon me in their time. Jesus never said the HS was in the disciples but said the HS was with them (in Jesus) and shall be in them. When Jesus told the disciples receive the HS, He was preparing for what they were about to receive and that why the final word of Jesus to them was for them to wait for the promised HS Act 1:4-8 UKJV 4: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, says he, all of you have heard of me. vs 8: But all of you shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit (o. pneuma) has come upon you: and all of you shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. It is this HS receive in Acts 2:1-4, the same Paul received in Acts 9:17 and it is that same HS that is in me now, that's why we're brethren because we all have the same HS. Hope u get it

ooman: sorry but this isn't true. Luke 1v41 says the holy spirit was already in Lizzy(Elizabeth) so try again.

I guess u're having problems comprehending the scriptures! u see b4 Acts 2:1 everyone else had the Spirit upon and not the Spirit within, meaning the Holy Spirit only came on them at certain times to perform certain function and left afterwards but now we've the Holy Spirit permanently dwelling in us as 1 Cor 6:19 says we're the temple of the Holy Ghost. Pls stop showing ur ignorance in public.

@Rossikk stop this nonsense that Jesus never existed because there a lot of evidence he did, just spend more time doing ur research, even the Koran and Jews gave evidence he did and the place he walk while on earth are still there. For your information the bible were by only Jews who gave accurate happenings in those esp the NT. But let me tell you this, the bible is self sustaining and self confirming and those not need outside historians or academicians to verify its authenticity. You know why, because in the bible all event were foretold long before they happened by different people at different times, which were accurate predictions and also in the bible are predictions for ur times which are being fulfilled more are still to be fulfilled and that why till date there is no other book like the bible.
By the way a guess u missed my earlier reply or may be ur still confused.

ooman: And Jesus said the holy spirit could not come except he left..John 16v7.. but the holy spirit was already present even before jesus was born..Luke 1v41

The Holy Spirit has always been in the earth, but however was never indwelling any man (living inside anyone) so Christ had to go away to fulfill what was necessary for the Spirit to indwell His believers ( Joh 14:16-17 UKJV 16: And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17: Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but all of you know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you), and this he achieved when He died & rose again and in Acts 2:1-4, His disciples then received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! Now tell me where is the lie in this?

FOLYKAZE: Adding :

In Luke 23:43 Jesus said to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." This obviously has to be false, for Jesus was supposed to lay dead in the tomb for three days following his crucifixion.

Ignorance! Jesus was not telling any lie, paradise is another word for Abraham's bosom (Luke 16: 19-32) and it was found in the regions of Hades (the place of the dead) and was the place all those who believed and hoped in Jesus went to before His death and resurrection, hence when the thief believed, Jesus simply told him the outcome. And that's the beauty of Christianity who you need to be saved is simply believing in Jesus.

Very funny all I see in this bunch of anti-christ guys is serious ignorance and in- comprehension! its amazes me how the bible clearly prophesied about this lot, who knowing nothing are puffed up with their ignorance! one saying Christ did not exist and another saying He is a liar bunch of confused dudes.
@Rossikk u sud be ashamed of urself, first u said Jesus was a liar, only to come back in the same thread to say he didn't exist and all the people u quoted earlier did not exist, so which one sud we believe?
Like I said earlier to logicboy and the rest anti-christ crusaders, you can't discredit or prove the bible to be wrong or a lie n I will take on any of you and all of you, anytime and expose ur ignorance.

MostHigh: I worship bodily as in I KNOW my body is the temple.

I do not subscribe to any denomination. All of the elect are baptised in the name of yashua and no other man

I live the way of the Jew.


What about you were do you worship and offer your appropriate sacrifice?

Of course my I know my body is the house of God n I offer spiritual sacrifice. The bible also says in the book of Hebrews that will forsake not the gathering together as brethren, so I'm a Pentecostal (in quotes) and worship with the brethren @ THCC. Where do u fellowship with ur brethren? You say u follow the way of the Jew, do u meet in a synagogue or something?

MostHigh: Denomination is satanic doctrine

but you wouldt know anything about that would you

Lawless children of a lawless father.

Pls just answer the question, where do u guys worship, fellowship or meet? what is the name of ur church?

Pls just out of curiosity @obadiah777, what denomination are you? pls eagerly await your reply.

I've always admire atheists a lot because they're always thinkers and ask questions, always ready to study and know more (just imaging if they brought attitude into the studying of the scriptures,they would have such mind blowing experiences), but its quite unfortunate that they didn't get the right answers hence their dis - believe! the Op made some very valuable points, they never experienced the baptism of the Holy Ghost, hence xtianity was never real to them.

Another major point is that the atheists don't know God and the bible as much as they think they do, for instance God is not responsible for any disaster natural or otherwise, but they keep attributing it to God and 2 God is not in-charge of this present world the devil is.
Finally no amount of knowledge or insights can ever discredit the bible because its the truth, even science confirms the existence of God!

frosbel: Nonsense.

No one is in HELL because HELL aka the lake of fire is a future event.

Read Revelation 20:10 and Revelation 20:14.

very true @frosbel no one is in the lake of fire presently but all those who died n did not believe in Jesus Christ are presently in hades until the end of time.

@Sal C tanx so much for d correction.

[quote author=Unluvable*]When exactly was it prepared is the question??[/quote]It was prepared after the fall. Notice it did not say created.

[quote author=Unluvable*]I'm talking of hell fire[/quote]Hell fire or lake of fire was not created during the genesis 1 account. Hell as we know it today is Hades which is the place of the dead it is different from the lake of fire which is being prepared for satan, his fallen angels & any1 who refuses Christ salvation. Before Christ anyone that died ended up in Hell. Adam, Abraham, David, Elijah all went to Hell when they died, but the difference is as recorded in the Luke 16 account was that they were in Abraham's bosom because they believe and had hope in the redemptive work of Jesus. But now they are no longer there but in heaven.
By the story of Lazarus was not a parable

[quote author=Unluvable*]Please I need to add one question; on which 'day' of creation was hell as a place created? Or was it created after God completed his creations[/quote]Pls you've specify if u are talking about hell fire or hell. Hell is a place of the dead sometimes called hades or Seoul. Hell or hell fire was not created on any day of creation because all of what God created was good. Gen 2:1-7.
Hell is different from hell fire as earlier stated and the devil is not in hell or hell fire, he has never been there.

Now to the OP, the devil is not in hell because the authority he collected from Adam was a lease for a period of time and the time is not over yet but almost about to. So the devil is currently some where on this earth n why men go to hell immediately is simply because God prepared a redemptive plan for man but not for satan n his fallen angels. Jesus is the only plan for the salvation of man! believe & receive him today because you've an opportunity to save your soul. Shalom

@Olaadegbu no I'm in support or distorted about what scientists say but what I know about the scriptures is the time the scientists are talking was not during the life of Adam. Adam's only started counting after the fall, but must have lived billions years before the fall.

@OP very interesting topic, but a lot of misconceptions and will try n clarify some. First the creation week was spiritual and not physical! Time itself was created by God. The d first light that was like created that provide light until the fourth day the sun n moon was created was Jesus Christ, showing that Christ is the light of the world John 1-13, 2Co 4:6 KJV For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
Man was the first creation of God to physical habit the earth, before plants and animals although spiritually they were created b4 man. Gen 2: 1- 15.
The day of rest was actually fore shadowing Salvation through Grace by Jesus, that why when you become born again you seize from you work and enter God's rest God's Sabbath by Jesus Christ Heb 4:1- end.
@strytn initially the earth was just continent in the time it was created, so there was only one night & day and not many the way we have it now.
Finally the carbon dating & scientists are correct with the billions of years that some things might have existed. Yes its true, though it seems in the bible earth is about 6 or so thousands years old, the earth is actually much older! And yes it is supported by the bible.

@op nice post and very true!

Guess I'm thru with you for now. But the truth of the matter is that not you or anybody can change God or His love and word to us. He choose to save mankind by just believing in His Son and He has choose to love us with an everlasting love!

obadiah777: ROMANS 9 VS 13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

1 JOHN 1 VS 5 >> IN HIM THERE IS LIGHT AND NO DARKNESS. OBVIOUSLY YOU DO NOT KNOW THE MEANING OF LIGHT. HATING SOMEONE AND HAVING LIGHT ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. 'LIGHT' MEANS COMPLETE WISDOM AND SPIRITUAL AWAKENING.

You're funny u just quoted a verse Paul actually from the old testament n if u do a study on that verse it didn't mean as hate as the negative, but God choosing Jacob instead of Esau. The hate was a matter of choice. Pls study more.

Hey I believe in Jesus as my Lord. You saying it cannot change the fact that I'm saved.
Pls can you show in the new testament where its states God hate. God is light in Him there's no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.
You've not be able to explain this scriptures I quoted in the NT.

obadiah777: @ NOBLEFADA SEE ITS LIKE THIS, THE PROPHETS OF OLD WERE THE TREE OF LIFE. THEY WERE THE ANGELS THAT FELL AFTER GETTING CAUGHT UP IN SPIRITUAL FORNICATION ( THE FRUIT ) BY THE NATION OF PEOPLE CALLED THE SERPENT. AS SUCH THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOD THAT WAS INNATE IN THEM ( THE BREATH OF LIFE ) GOT WIPED OUT FROM THOSE OF THEM WHO WERE NOT ELECTED. AND AS A RESULT, THE ONES WHO WERE ELECTED HAD TO PUT THE WORDS IN PAPER FOR THE NON-ELECT MEMBERS OF ISRAEL AS WELL AS FOR THE GENTILES WHO WOULD BE RECRUITED AS PART OF THE SECOND FRUIT AFTER CHRIST COMES. SO IN OTHER TO PUT THE WORD IN PRINT THEY HAD DIRECT CONTACTS WITH THE FATHER. NOW THE WORD IS IN PRINT ? THE BELIEVERS OF TODAY DONT HAVE THE KIND OF CONTACT THE PROPHETS OF OLD HAD SO THE PROPHETS OF OLD HAVE AND HAD A STRONGER RELATIONSHIP. THE PROPHETS OF OLD ARE THE TWO LAMPSTAND, THE OLIVE BRANCH, THE SEVEN EYES OF GOD, THAT STAND BEFORE THE GOD OF THE EARTH

Sorry pls what denomination are you?

obadiah777: LOL SAL C GAVE YOU THE MOST PERFECT ANSWER YOU CAN EVER GET. THE PROPHETS OF OLD HAD DIRECT VISIONS AND CONTACTS WHILE TODAY WE DONT BECAUSE THE WORD HAS BEEN PUT ON PAPER. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS WALK INTO A SHOP TO BUY IT IF YOU WANT TO GET CLOSER THUMBS UP SAL C

Now I'm totally disappointed. I thought u actually had deep insights into the scriptures via the Holy Ghost, but guess I was wrong because the very basis of the new covenant believers u dnt know.
The major difference btw us now and prophets of old was dat they didn't have the indwelling of the HS while we do. Read John chapter 14, 15 & 16.
You see the HS only came on them for particular reason and left after He finished His assignment! but praise God I have the HS in me 24/7 1 Cor 6:19, that's why I better than David, Isaiah and the rest. Jesus was the first man to have the indwelling of the Spirit and dats why they never called God Father.

WHAT! this thread is still on? @ayenny02 u have no shame & dignity. After several others & myself have answered the questions
u still have shame to continue, where is ur dignity man, u run away every time and come when u sure dat people who exposed ur shallowness & ignorance have stop following the thread to engage someone else. Shame on you!
Pls my xtian brethren let stop indulging this fellow, pls be patient to read thru the thread and u will see what talking about. Shalom

Sal C: The major difference is that in their days, God spoke to the people through them; but today he speaks to the believers through his son who happens to be a mediator. Heb 1v1&2. Now between the prophets and today's believers who knows God personally.

Tanx for reply but am waiting for @obadiah 777 to answer the question

obadiah777: PROPHET ISAIAH, JEREMIAH, EZEKIEL, MOSES, KING DAVID, HOSEA, JOEL, AMOS, ZECHARIAH, ZEPHANIAH ETC ETC DID NOT KNOW GOD FOR WHO HE WAS YET THEY END UP WRITING ALMOST ALL THE BIBLE ? LMAOOO DUDE YOU ARE CLEARLY AN ATHEIST. JUST LET IT GO. WE KNOW YOU DONT BELIEVE IN GOD AND THATS OK. EVERY MAN SHALL GET HIS OWN REWARDS

Ok let u a question, pls can u tell the major difference btw the believers now and those prophets u mentioned in terms of ur relationship with God?

Thanks for sharing it was really edifying, God Bless you and thanks be to God who does not suffer us to go through such barbaric treatment.

obadiah777: YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY AN ATHEIST BECAUSE YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE BIBLE. >>>> ISAIAH 45 VS 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do allo these things

No I'm not an atheists, in fact they will totally reject me. You see the OT folks did not know God for who He truly was but a certain fearful look towards, I thought with ur deep insights into the scriptures u wud have known this. I give u 3 examples:
1. You still have not commented on James 1: 16&17, which is an undeniable truth.
2. Through out the OT there was never a time God was referred to as Father, until Jesus came and told us He is OUR FATHER! Halleluyah.
3. The third point may cause a little stir for some, but let me say any way, remember the story of Noah's flood? the bible clearly stated that God sent the flood to destroy man, but that's not entirely true, that's why when Jesus was to refer to it He said in Mat 24:38-39KJV 38:For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39: And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
So my question to u is why didn't Jesus say my Father sent the flood and destroy, like he said my Father sent them manna fro heaven in John 8?

By the way ur totally wrong about Moses patting the red sea, becos there are 3 other recorded miraculous patting of rivers in the bible.

There is no evil in God, yes u see a lot of OT folks attributing evil to God because they didn't know better. Lets take the case of Job for example, we see clearly that in chapter 1 dat the devil was responsible for all his misfortune, but what did Job say after the calamity that befell him, Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD! my question is dat was the Lord responsible for his loss?

obadiah777: AND I REPEAT ? GOD KNOWS HOW MANY HAIRS ARE ON YOUR HEAD <<<< THINK ABOUT THAT STATEMENT FOR A MINUTE. GOING INSANE IS NOT A COINCIDENCE. NO RIGHTEOUS PERSON GOES INSANE
JOB 4 VS 7 Remember, I pray thee, who ever perished being innocent? or when were the just destroyed

DEUT 32 VS 39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 59 then the Lord will bring upon you and your descendants extraordinary plagues—great and prolonged plagues—and serious and prolonged sicknesses. 60 Moreover He will bring back on you all the diseases of Egypt, of which you were afraid, and they shall cling to you. 61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed. <<<< BELIEVE IT OR NOT BUT THE LORD IS THE ONE WHO BRINGS SICKNESSES AS PUNISHMENT

DEUTERONOMY 28 VS 28 The LORD will afflict you with madness, blindness and confusion of mind <<< THE LORD IS THE ONE WHO GIVES PEOPLE MADNESS

I'm a bit disappointed in u, thought you had a deep understanding of the scriptures, but from the above it shows you don't know God as much as u claimed u do. God doesn't give anyone madness or any other sickness for that matter. James 1: 16&17 is the true nature of God
16 Do not be misled, my beloved brethren.

17 Every good gift and every perfect ( [d] free, large, full) gift is from above; it comes down from the Father of all [that gives] light, in [the shining of] Whom there can be no variation [rising or setting] or shadow cast by His turning [as in an eclipse]. AMP

I quite disagree with you, true the bible is filled with deep truths and knowledge, there was actually a man name Job in the bible.

Mr Troll: daz all


But eh, saved from what exactly?

Saved from the repercussions of sin! In case you may ask whose sins, the answer is Adam's! Rom 5:12 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned and Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; the wages of this sin is death! Rom 6:23