₦airaland Forum

adamugo:
I will create job opportunity for every nigeria to make sure there is always food in their table

how?

Get rid of the agberos,reorganise the union with elites so that there will be efficient transportation for all.

and the agberos will then bcome armed robbers.
y not rehabilitate them and get them jobs?

Deal with the electricity problem,because without that no development.

how?

Others follows gradually.

u mean poverty ?

fellow nigerians please ignore this time waster,
Vote NOETIC for president.

@ ricadelide

I have replied your e-mail. and now that I do understand your definition of the "spirit", which has been the basis of disagreement, I concurr with pilgrim1 that except the spirit is clearly defined the issue of ressurection cannot be addressed. because our understanding and definition of the spirit still differs.

once again I apologise for any inconviniences caused.
but if u had initially posted what u mailed me, I would have understood your position, because I felt disscusing the spirit was irrelevant, because of my belief that it is not distinct from man, which is contrary to your belief.

I however think that we should shift our discussion over to the other thread, to compare our individual definition and understanding of the spirit, then and only then can the issue of ressurection be addressed. because like pilgrim rightly pointed out to me, in the other thread, we are basically applying the same scriptures but with different interpretations.

I am not discussing/debating because I think I know something that should be imposed on others,
because only intelligent people learn, fools don't.

please paste your explanation of the spirit at the relevant thread and lets make open comparisons.
kudos to your intellect and keep being a gentleman.
cheers

@tayo-d
I intend to reply your posts as soon as I can.

you have made certain sensitive responses, but have also evaded certain issues I raised earlier raised and my position still hasnt changed.

after reading ricadelide`s mail, I now believe, like pilgrim said that unless the spirit issue is tackled, ressurection cannot be fully discussed.
because after reading your last posts, I remain unconvinced by your positions and think we should simultaneously debate the spirit in the relevant thread.

please post your explanation of the spirit in the relevant thread and pick holes in mine where u think we differ.

y? because if u think the spirit is distinct from the body biblibically, u will continue to assert that since the body is in the grave, the spirit must have gone to God in heaven which I disagree with.

I look forward to reading ur explicit definition of the spirit.
cheers


@bobbyaf.
I feel u and continue to believe that we have a similar position.

but for the sake of learning and passing knowledge, let us examine the basis of their believe about ressurection, which is a distinct spirit.
because having read tayo-d recent posts, we will only continue to move in circles, if we don't discuss the spirit.

cheers

@ pilgrim

uhmn! u sounded like u were cross with me. please dont be.

I tot d tone of ur lat two posts were rather coversational, that neccesitated the same tone in response. and I guess that my attempt to reply ur 2 posts immediately and together, made u feel I was overstretching matters.
i hate typing too, I wish there was a machine I would talk into, n will just type wat I say.

none the less, forgive my excesses.

u carefully evaded some things I mentioned, and u also raised certain other issues, to which I will respond as soon as I can

be cool
cheers

@ricadelide

No, I did not see your e-mail. If I had, I would at least have replied
paulbellaro@gmail.com

please re-send it
look forward to hearing from u.
cheers

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=104156.msg1861081#msg1861081 date=1200581090]I think you are hoping that the point I made is irrelevant; however, you only managed to clarify and buttress my point rather than establish that it was "irrelvant".[/quote]if I was, then there is no point disagreeing. If u think I clarified it better, good for u.

The whole crux of the matter here is on what exactly is the spirit of man - how does Scripture use it in its varied applications.

I have offered my opinion in the appropriate thread.

If we can come to a concensus on this, the discussion on the resurrection would become clearer.

it is still not a parameter.

To assume without qualification that both the body and the spirit are in the grave is the reason why we have again and again established the fact that they are NOT - offering that persuasion from Scripture.

what then is your understanding of the spirit?

Even Bobbyaf has referenced a verse that reminds us that at death, the body and the spirit of man are SEPARATED - please go and see it again: (Eccl. 12 v 7) - that verse does not hint that BOTH body and spirit remain in the grave!!

but according to u, the "spirit has ascended into heaven. prove it.

This is why we have taken the time to examine the meaning of the "spirit" of man as used in the Bible - and to suddenly assume that it is irrelevant for us to make that examination is quite unfortunate.

I insist that, that I have offered my opinion on the spirit in the right thread.

Please, noetic, please please and please:

must u shout?.

that question has been answered once too many times!! The dead in Christ go to HEAVEN - and if you never read that answer, what is the basis of the debate all this while?

their body or spirit? we have both examined the scriptures where we established that the dead are buried, u havent told of us where the spirit of the dead are seen dwelling in heaven.

Please do.

I still am.

Phew!!    WHAT have I been doing all this while other than that very thing - DEFINING the "spirit" of man, eh? Please go back and read it - for did I not say already in this wise:

yes ma.
but u since u also claim that spirit is distinct and not inherent in man. tell us where in the bible it is seen dwelling with God?

It is that part of man himself that is able to grasp spiritual matters
in the things of God, as well as express intelligent worship to Him.

so y are u saying it is distinct and it ascends to heaven?
or is it because others said so?

Lol. . . wait first. . . you sound like I never attempted to offer you a meaning anywhere about the "spirit" of man. Please go back and read my previous posts

yes, we are saying the same thing.
but what is d basis of your belief that a "spirit" is going to heaven, by parting ways with the body?

Em. . . did I offer a definition earlier or not?

yes u did.
but where u changing position or what?.
u said initially that it aids our communication with God. so how does this aid, fly to heaven when man dies?

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=104156.msg1861084#msg1861084 date=1200581113]Hehe. . . more subjects are creeping in. [/quote]at all.
is there any u doubt or u think my claim is not genuiue?
then I will elucidate futher.

Okay. . first, you wanted us to stick with the "resurrection" and not make the distinctions between the components of man an issue. Right-O! We got the invitation to go to the appropriate thread and discuss that.

i have just done that.

Next! It is not the distinctions that are in view - you appealed we look into the "resurrection'. Phew! We hear!

have u done so?
ok, I think so, but i disagree with your point of view, for reasons I stated earlier.

And now. . . it is not the dwelling place of God that is in view - heaven or otherwise!

u have two options.
1) u either  open a new thread and we rob minds on it or
2) u could tell ricadelide to explain better to u, because u get along well.
to help u start, I will quote him, he said

I don't subscribe to a "reign in heaven", the reign is here on earth. We know that of the Lord the bible says that "he must remain in heaven UNTIL . . ."(Acts. 3:21). Like you said, we are made to realize that He is coming back with the saints to earth to reign a thousand years (the final dispensation). We'd do other things in heaven however in the mean time before then.

Abeg, noetic. . . this is already spinning round.

no its not.
stick with the issues, then u wont be confused.

The question again . . if I understand from the topic. . . mentions HEAVEN:
Do The Dead In Christ Go To Heaven Or Await Ressurrection?

yes.

We are clear that they go to God.

God is everywhere, so where exactly are u talking about?

Now question: where is God - in HEAVEN. . . or ?!?

He lives in me.

Done.

thank God.

But wait first, noetic. . . you're asking some fascinating questions O!

again!

Please excuse me - I don't mean to laugh like that.

ok.

But I have already provided the context - I said so a couple of times already!! See an example:

u provided it like I did, but did not tell us exactly what u think it means, since u think peter was talking in another context, compared to the opinion I expressed.

Again, I already did what you are asking again of me!

I insist u havent.

Nor did he say that David was a "spirit" in the sepulchre.

exactly!
so please tell us where his spirit is, since he has a "spirit" that must go to heaven?

From the collective testimony of Scripture, are we agreed that the spirit of man goes back to God - yes or no?

your question is confusing. y? because u have u have 2 definitions for spirit
1) that aids communication to God
2)that is distinct and goes to heaven after death. so which of them are u refering to?

~ If "YES", would David be an exemption to Eccl. 12 v 7??

~ If "NO" where is the "spirit" of david according to Eccl. 12 v 7?

until u answer the above, I can't answer this.

Dear brother, I have offered a clear pointer in my previous rejoinders to demonstrate the distinction of the spirit, soul and body - they are not the same.

no u havent. its not clear.
even in the other thread, u didnt give your own opinion of the issue, u just picked holes in someone else`s.
tell us in your own terms, without refrence to other people.

Second, I often try to remind you guys that the Bible shows that there is a distinction between those components by offering 1 Thes. 5:23 and Hebrews 4:12.

I have offered the meaning of this verses in the relevant thread, u invited me to.

I also offered a few questions to help you guys come round this point - I don't see your answers anywhere.

please repost your questions.

In all the places that God dwells, HEAVEN is not one of them?

yes it is.

That being so, the "spirit" returns to God - whereever you assume He dwells.

good, now u re talking. but whats your stand on that "spirit"

If that is not HEAVEN, please tell us where exactly it is!

the dead are in the grave called Hades.
if u know any spirit that ascended to heaven, tell us where it is written in the scriptures.

Please go and read what I offered about the "spirit" of man - I just re-quoted it above.

I have read it, and like I said, it is contradicting.

John 3 v 13 is speaking in context of what I pointed out in Peter's sermon as re-quoted above again. (Please keep the ASCENSION in clear view - it is connected with the RESURRECTION)

exactly, so they are all in the grave awaiting ressurection.

I never made the case that Eccl. 12 v 7 applies ONLY to IMMORTAL persons

ok.

In anycase, if he wasn't exempted,

of course he wasnt.

then what again have you been arguing?

that he is in the grave, awaiting ressurection

Does that not already establish the fact that you have only agreed with what you tried to disagree with at first?

noooooo.

Still on Eccl. 12 v 7 -

ok

is David exempted from that verse?

u asked this earlier on, I said No.

Does that verse prove that the spirit of David is in the sepulchre?

of course not. neither does it say he "spirit" ascended to heaven

Lol. . . the words in bold is funny! What - "the spirit is not distinct from the body"??

you are the only laughing. I c it as a fact.

Lol does that mean that the body and the spirit are the SAME?

please read my post in the thread u invited me to.

cheers

@ topic.

My opinion.

Soul and spirit:
In Genesis2:7 God breathed into man and he became a living soul, implying that before the breadth came into Adam, he was a dead soul and like we all know all living creatures are living souls
In verse 17, God the told this two living souls He created in verse 7, that if they eat of they eat of the forbiden fruit, they will die.. they (souls) ate the fruit and they died. so also do all other living creatures including fishes, birds etc with the breadth of life die.
man was also refered to as soul in over a hundred places in the bible including 1 Kings 17:21 Rom. 13:1  1 Pet. 3:20  Acts 27:37  Acts 3:23 Acts 2:43 Acts 2:41  Lev. 18:29 Num. 15:27 Lamentations 3:25.

this implies that man is soul and soul is man.
but Jesus said in matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell

does Jesus mean we have an immortal soul different from man?. NO.  y not?
He is simply saying a dead man/soul can be raised again like he did on numerous occassions and at ressurection. but when a person is deystroyed in hell, such is permanent, and only God can do that.
this implies that "the soul that sinneth shall die" (ezekiah18:4, 18:20) and they have no consciousness (Eccles9:5)

so if the soul is not as immortal as we think, what then is the difference between it and man?
none.


romans6:23 states that For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
this verse readily implies that
1)the punishment for those who die in sin is death, for those who don't, it is eternal life.
2)every component of man is mortal as only God is immortal (also 1timothy6:16, )
3) man does not have any means or ability of pocessing eternal life. It is a gift from God. since many believe that man will dwell in eternal life through the spirit.

what is spirit?
spirit is the state of man that provides unhindererd communication with God. The spirit is the dwelling and functioning state of  the immortal being and His spiritual creations. the spirit is abstract existence from man. the spirit is the state of GOD which we should please to reap eternal life galatians6:8

the spirit have however been often interpreted to be the same as the inherent part of man that explains our instincts. our instincts to be angry, troubled or weak e.t.c

does man pocess a distinct spiritual entity called spirit? No.
no where in the creation of man recorded in genesis did God mention him(man) as a spirit.
neither was God`s initial plan for man to dwell in the spirit,
neither is any one in heaven john3:13
neither is the venue of eternal life in heaven (where spirit beings live).
the bible records that Christ shall reign on earth for a thousand years (this He butressed in the Lords prayer saying "YOUR KINGDOM COME"matt25:31-34, luke21:27-31). obviously His people shall be men, as they presently are, only Immortal, because they shall not taste death again.

the communication between man and God has always been either in the physical or spiritual. in the physical, He comes to the garden of eden to dwell with adam and eve. and many of us also experience certain divine but physical interventions.
in the spiritual, we recieve revelations and insights from God, like John who wrote the book of revelation.


now lets examine 1thes5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ

was Paul saying we have a body, spirit and soul contrary to old testament expressions?
absolutely No.

by body, spirit and soul what does paul mean?

1)body (soma) the human, physical flesh.
2)soul(psuche) a man physical life and consciouness, since I stated above that Adam was as good as dead without the breadth of life.
3)spirit (pneuma) the human mind, instincts and personal convictions. our ability to analyse,reason and comprehend

no biblibical refrerence explicitly states that man has an outer body called spirit or soul.

@all

this people described here (below), where are they?

Rev. 6:9-10 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? "?

I thought u said they were in heaven?

yes!

@pilgrim

[quote author=pilgrim.1 link=topic=104156.msg1855498#msg1855498 date=1200431815]I stated clearly that my objective was to clarify the confusion on the semantics on the word "spirit". as I'd first like us to ascertain just what Bobbyaf (and perhaps yourself) have put forward as meaning "the breath of life" as distinct from the "spirit" of man.[/quote]honestly, thats irrelevant. y? because we said the dead are awaiting ressurection, tayo-d said their body is in the grave, and their spirit is in heaven. we countered that saying, no one is in heaven. man "spirit" and body is awaiting judgement in the grave. then d clarification of the spirit began.
u still did not answer d question do the dead in Christ go to heaven or await ressurection?

For now, I'm enjoying my "sidon-look" reservation until then.

i m waiting.

I did not argue that the "spirit" goes eslewhere. Unless someone wants to get into another semantic cubicle as to where God dwells. . . then I could begin to see just why I need to "prove" anything thereto.

u could help by first definig the spirit. that way we will understand better that the spirit goes to God.
and must that neccsarily mean Heaven?

God`s throne and dwelling place is in heaven, since he existed before the creation of heaven, we can't say precisely where He dwelled then. Jesus came and said He lives is us, His future kingdom shall also be established on earth with us. not also forgetting that He is omni-prescent. so the dwelling place of God in my opinion is not the issue.

In any case, I'll get to the resurrection in due course. I only needed to set the pavement for us to walk on level ground by clarifying the distinction between "the breath of life" and the "spirit" of man.

the clarification is only important if it affects your anwer. answer the thread and give your reasons.

I agree it was "self-explanatory". The only problem there is that we were overlooking how important it was for Peter to have mentioned the word "ascended". That is what I asked you to please carefully take the time to study in its context.

please be more explicit as to what context u think peter was talking. I still don't get u.

Look again - Peter was not laying a fundamental theological doctrine as though to contradict the fact that the "spirit" of David was with God,

yes he wasnt, but he never said david has a "distinct spirit" with God. to him david is dead and buried.

as Bobbyaf has always quoted that popular verse: "the spirit goes back to God".

yes the "spirit" goes back to God. your individual interpretation of the "spirit" is what differs, and whether it is distinct.
like I stated earlier, God has so many dwelling places, we need to establish takes that breadth of man meets him.

The question here would be: was David's spirit still in the sepulchre -

depending on what u call "spirit", there is no being in heaven John3vs13, so david is in his sepulchure.

or was he exempted from that verse quoted by Bobbyaf?

no he wasnt because he is not immortal.

To help clear this issue, let's ask a simple one further: what does the sepulchre hold - the bones, or the spirit of man?

the sepulchre holds david. the onus is on u to prove that david has a distinct "spirit" in heaven.

For the present, in regards to where exactly David is at the moment, consider again the verse already referred to:
Eccl. 12:7  --  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

ok.

Did David's spirit return to God - or is his spirit still in the sepulchre?

by my knowledge of the spirit,(please read my initial post to radecalide) the spirit is not distinct from the body. his return to God could mean
1) account his stewardship to God.
2)or his place among the dead in Hades.

I will subsequently come to the matter of the resurrection as well.

I really want to hear your views.

cheers

@tayo-d.
[quote author=Tayo-D link=topic=104156.msg1855468#msg1855468 date=1200431265]This topic is about the fate of Christains when they die.[/quote]of course.

We've all agreed so far that death is nothing but a separation.
We've also all agreed so far that it is the physical body component of the dead saints that is still in the grave.

i never concurred with u on this.
in your first post u mentioned a "spirit" in heaven and a body ressurecting to meet it. and my questionswere, whats the purpose of this body meeting this spirit? is the spirit incomplete in heaven? are these biblibical facts?
u are yet to answer. In one of your early posts u said

When Adam died in the Garden, his spirit was separated from God

I am yet to see this in the bible. Was Adam dwelling with God initially in the spirit?

logically u divided man into 3. body, spirit and soul. and emphasised that the spirit is distinct from the body as butressed by pilgrim and ricadelide who stated that the spirits has feelings, could be troubled and excited et all.
to understand my position on spirit  better, please read my post addressed to ricadelide.
then answer this is there any biblibical expression where the body and the spirit did differnt things at the same time, since they are distinct?

But If u insist on this distinct “spirit”, lets then examine this scenario.

I sat for an exam, and didn’t write well in the exam, for just no reason, because I know d course in question and read well for it. After the exam, I exclaimed to my friends that “my spirit is troubled” apparently because of how the exam went. Whats the basis of the statement?
Is this statement “my spirit is troubled” valid or invalid? Yes or no

If you answer No, what then was the basis of paul`s spirit being troubled, weak, angry like u guys biblibically emphasised? Or was Paul being sacarstic? Or did u quote him out of context?
If u answer yes. Then I ask, who wrote the exam, my body or spirit? If my spirit is angry what is the reaction of my body, since u say they are distinct?

Please draw a line between the body and spirit, since u claim they are distinct.
However, u cannot explicitly explain what u haven’t defined. You could start by answering what is man`s spirit?

So the question is, where is the other vital component that makes up the whole man when they were still walking amongst us?

I don’t know any missing vital component.
As a matter of fact only you guys can answer this, since u claim man has a distinct spirit.
my take is man is dead and unconscious in the grave, awaiting ressurection. this I have subsequently butressed (john3v13, acts2:29-35,Ecc9vs5)
if u believe man is in the grave and also in heaven, whats the purpose of reconciling the two parts? my guess is u believe men go to heaven and also await ressurection, but u can't reconcile both.

To answer this question, it is absolutely necessary to know the make-up of man.

no. I can also say answering this question has to do with other issues like the destination of righteous men, the place of the dead Hades, often translated in the bible as Hell or the venue of eternal life like recadelide submitted in his recent post that

I don't subscribe to a "reign in heaven", the reign is here on earth. We know that of the Lord the bible says that "he must remain in heaven UNTIL . . ."(Acts. 3:21). Like you said, we are made to realize that He is coming back with the saints to earth to reign a thousand years (the final dispensation). We'd do other things in heaven however in the mean time before then.

If I had raised any of this in my original or subsequent post, it would have being a complete deviation from the topic except like u, I used it to buttress a point.
The venue of Christs eternity is another issue many of  us miss.
Do u agree with ricadelide, like I do, that Christ will reign and His kingdom shall be established on earth.
If u don’t, please open another thread and lets rub minds on that.
If u do, since the bible says Christ is coming back to intervene in the affairs of men because of the atrocities of the anti-Christ and the leaders of d world will be angry at His intervention, and fight against him (rev6:16-17, 11:17-18, 16:14). Will this spirits u claim are in heaven be part of Christ forces? Whats their purpose in heaven?

This was the basis that ricadelide was establishing and I totally think this topic cannot be rightly dealt with without us establishing that truth.

No he wasn’t. u both refered to the spirit issue, you always made your conclusion with the thread question in mind. He never did. Your position is easily established, his is not.

Yes we are attempting to establish the truth, and God willing we will.

If everyone just wants to come her and thump their belief in other's faces, then we'd all just say one thing or the other without anyone gaining anything.

Of course u are right.

However, to establish this truth, we will have to go line upon line, precept upon precept, a little here and a little there.

If we however don’t stick to the basic relevant issues, we will never get it straight. We would only be gallivanting if we don’t stick to the basics. We all know certain tins in d bible, but shouldn’t relate it to all issues.
It’s a gimmick by Muslims, who often run out of ideas.

That's the way I was brought up in Christ. My pastor sometimes spends up to 2 years teaching on one particular topic becuase he really deals with it. That way, we all have a full understanding and not just voicing what is the opionion of another.

Ok. But this issue in my opinion is wrongly taught in most churches.

Luke 16 is not a parable. It is a story of real events.

Are we talking about the same luke16?

How many parables did Jesus teach while mentioning peopl's names?

It is only in our part of the world that we only call judges, Lord. In Jesus time slaves and workers, call their bosses Lord. This explains the use of lord.

Every time Jesus mentioned anyone's name in the NT, you can be sure it is tied to real events. His talk about, Moses, Jonah, Elijah etc were based on real events.

Yes.

This one with Abraham is true as well.

No its not. Cos like Jesus said in john3vs13, no one is in heaven yet.
Abraham was used because of the isrealites respect for him as a friend of God. And he said rich and poor because of the living conditions and differences between d leaders of those days n d masses. Or are u also insinuating that wealth is a yardstick for Christ`s judgement?

The spirit of man is very much dinstict from his body.

Until u answer the questions I asked u about the spirit, I disagree with this statement.

this has been established time and time again.

By whom?

The body of the dead saints are still in the grave and will not be up before the resurrection.

Yes.

That is what the resurrection is all about - a reconciliation of the body and the spirit.

You haven’t proved this, biblibically.

The spirits of dead saints have been seen before as in the case of Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration,

Please don’t get it wrong, the account of the gospel where moses and Elijah were seen with Jesus is according to the disciples. They could have been wrong. Y?
1).Wen Jesus was seen walking on water, they thought it was a ghost, If Jesus had not told them He was the one and asked peter to come along, the biblibical account would have been they a ghost on water.
2). Moses and Elijah lived thousands of years before the time of Jesus, how then did the disciples recognise them? The jewish tradition forbade worship with pictoral images, how then did they know what this prophets look like?
3) Jesus said in john3vs13 no one has gone to heaven.
Perhaps they had seen the elders of heaven, refered to in revelation.

as well as those seen in Jerusalem after Jesus rose from the dead.

Undoubtedly, Jesus is immortal.

This is not the same as resurrection.

Of course

Resurrection hasn't taken place at all,

True.

and paul warns of the danger of those who taught that the resurrection is past

I believe it is yet to occur.

In summary, death is a separation. And according to Paul in 1 Thess 5:23, the spirit, soul and body are distinct

He never implied they are distinct. He only told us there is a spirit, the issue is, is it distinct from the body?

and there is a separation between these at death.

this he never said, unless u re quoting him out of context.

cheers

@ horus

Good job, well done.

I hope we all can learn and stop pretending to know.

faketan:
It is crazy my brother. There is nothing you will not hear in Nigeria.
I think they are qualified for firing squad. May be life will be more human.

I agree, but how can we be assured there wont be a repeat?

glorina:

I have been tormented by the demons since i was a baby; now i'm in my mid twenties. I have had deliverance many times but the evil spirits don't want do leave me/ stop tormenting me. I'm more than frustrated. This issue has affected almost every area of my life. What do you do if there is a delay in your miracle? How do you handle it? Do you keep on praying or just accept the situation? Has any one eva been in such a situation?

a miracle is not similar to magic, as we all evidently witness on Tv.
the bible says by their confession and testimony they are overcomers. and also that faith is hoping for things we want and evidence of things not seen.

My advice.
fast and pray on your own for three days, with faith in HIM, who is more than d demons.
change ur confession and testimony (like d ones u pasted on this thread).
the rest is settled.

jintujinta:
Who are the we? Talk for yourself o. On nairaland, it is everyone to himself, God for us all.

where two or three are gathered, in support of a point of view, in nairaland, it has become a WE.

@ topic.
I will also prefer to die in my sleep, but when? I cant really say.
but not before 70, not past 90.

jintujinta:
I said it. What are you afraid of about death? Common, let's know the way you want to die!

we insist, u first

eldee:
Has the winne been annouced yet cus the people are begging me to enter for a third term. . .

na who elect u for first term sef, , , , , 3rd term ko, tenth term ni.

My people, please ignore this obasanjo in disguise.

NOETIC for president2008

@pilgrim

Lol, I'm sorry that you're simply overblowing issues here.

no I am not. you said you were going to pop in and show us the part of the issue of ressurrection, we were not considering. I  was almost tempted to think I was wrong, because u created the impression of someone who had obeserved for long the debate, and has sensed certain things we ignored. you proved me wrong.

like I just posted to Bobbyaf, I'd rather reply in concise lines to help him see in simple terms that he doesn't really have a handle on what he was arguing. There's no denying the fact that man is actually a spirit being - and even he had quoted the verse that said man's spirit goes back to God - which clearly points to HEAVEN rather than the grave.

you havent proved these with biblibical inscription that the "spirit" that goes back to God, goes immediately to Him in Heaven.

I don't see how you have applied Biblical context in your arguments.

except of course u didnt observe well. all my claims on ressurection, I gave relevant bible quotes that apply, I didnt attempt to apply "pastoral" doctrines.

Oh dearie-dear!  How would you know that Peter said in simple "HEBREW"?

don't mind me.
but of course u don't doubt what peter said regardless of the language.

Anyhow, please understand that what Peter said in Acts 2:34 ("David is not ascended into the heavens" is in view of the the resurrection of Christ ("He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ" - v. 31). You need to find out the context of the word "ascended" in that verse 34 before denying that David is presently with the Lord Jesus Christ - in HEAVEN.

lets examine it together.

29"Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ,[a] that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,
   " 'The Lord said to my Lord:
      "Sit at my right hand

ha-ba PILGRIMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

If there was any reason y I gave no more explanation over this verse, it was because it was self-explanatory.

two men are being compared. one is a prophet named david, the other is Lord Jesus.
david recieved promises and saw ahead of his time that Jesus will be raised from the dead. Peter confirmed that as david saw it, Jesus has been raised and he ended it saying even till this time, the david who saw the prophecy, still lies dead in the grave.

That David was dead and his sepulcre "is with us unto this day" does not mean that David was still in the grave unto this day!

you still havent proven it otherwise. don't use sentiments, tell us somewhere else it was stated in the scriptures that David has risen from the dead?

His bones may have still been there; but where was the man David himself?

honestly, only u can answer this question. his bones are there, the scripture says he hasnt risen. please tell us where he is?

Lol. . . if eternal life was a REWARD rather than a GIFT, you need to go back and learn what Paul himself said about the GIFT of salvation in Ephesians 2 v 8!!

u are right, I got that wrong. its a gift which none of us deserves.
to say its a reward is hypocrisy. none of us deserves the gifts of salvation and eternal life.
I withdraw that statement. sorry for the mis-information.

Meanwhile, the resurrection is not to be confused for the gift of eternal life - because even the wicked dead will be raised to life for judgement; and it cannot be argued that the wicked also possess eternal life!

now u get the point.
first the righteous shall be ressurected and then there will be subsequent ressurections. this I will butress in my next post, with biblibical inscriptions to back it up.

learning from u has been nice, I look forward to hearing your (opposite) views
cheers

cgift:
I wonder o!

The black man has all the potentials in the world to get to any heights. Civilisation, I believe was first tasted by the black man. But he messed it up himself. Talk of Babel, Egypt and a few other civilisationsa, the blacks were in control. These are biblical facts. Check them out.

The black man's venture into paganism spoilt too many things than you could ever imagine. That to me is what killed the black man and is the bedrock of everything happening to him today ranging from economy to politics, and his place in the comity of nations. Some people clamour that we should worship our ancestors. I laugh, you dig your graves further down below 6 feet should you do that. God is a jealous God. He hates idolatary. He taught his children that right from the world go and punishes any nation, tribe or toungue that dares to give His glory to another, especially the works of men's hands. Do you need bible verses for this? This is the foundation of the black man's problems. No need to go too far. How was Nigeria pre-Festac 77 ? Did you notice the decline of ordeliness, love and greatness post-77 when we opened our doors to all sorts of idols. That's an abberation though.

African's bear all sorts of names ranging from Ogun, Oya , Snago, Ifa, etc. These are all works of men's hands. God loathes them and those who worship them. He alone is Jehovah Elohim. Give him His due honour and take your place among nations.

The black man's hope is Jesus. Only with Jesus will he be able to forgive and foreget his awful past and launch a new and unstoppable life that will glorify God and bless his generations. God is no respecter of persons. He is however a jealous God. Any nation that dares go adopt idol worshipping would be flogged severely. That is why I pity any nation not presently worshipping Jehovah God but another god.

Secondly, though needing some exposition, the origin of the black man goes back to Ham, whose generations received curses as a result of the profane acts of Ham himself. It was not God. If any body is to blame, it is man. God is just because He is God.

I for talk, but u don talk am finish. nothing left to b said.
well done.
cheers

[quote author=~Sly~(*_*) link=topic=105131.msg1855042#msg1855042 date=1200423416] [/quote]

faketan:
Keep on dreaming even though I like your Speech

y una dey vex?
its NOETIC for president.

Horus:
Larry Patterson confirmed that he frequently heard Bill Clinton use[b] "nigger" [/b]to refer to both Jesse Jackson and local Little Rock black leader Robert "Say" McIntosh. Longtime Clinton paramour Dolly Kyle Browning corroborated Patterson on Clinton's use of[b] "nigger." [/b]"Not only did he use the 'N' word, he called him a 'GDN' [goddamn nigger], if you catch my drift," Browning told Fox News in 1999. [NewsMax, 17 July 2000] Brown also told NewsMax that the president would regularly make derogatory comments about African-Americans in private. "He has used the 'N' word before. Bill would make snide remarks about blacks behind their backs." [Carl Limbacher and NewsMax Staff, 17 July 2000]

Patterson said Hillary was no stranger to the "N" word either. He heard her say "nigger" "probably six, eight, ten times. She would be upset with someone in the black community and she would use the 'N' word, like, you heard they've got the president's brother on tape using the 'N' word." [NewsMax, 17 July 2000]

It's all in the family: Captured on videotape when Arkansas state police had Hillary's brother-in-law Roger Clinton under surveillance for dealing cocaine in 1984, Roger stated: "Some junior high nigger kicked Steve's ass while he was trying to help his brothers out; junior high or sophomore in high school. Whatever it was, Steve had the nigger down. However it was, it was Steve's fault. He had the nigger down, he let him up. The nigger blindsided him." [NewsMax, 17 July 2000]

Source: http://sonic.net/maledicta/clintons.html

lets assume this is true.
would u vote on the basis of race?

[quote author=~Lady~ link=topic=105131.msg1852031#msg1852031 date=1200347004]na wa for una presidency o.

I stand with noetic. Brilliant!!![/quote]thank you very much.
and please dont mind the other jesters.
it is NOETIC for president 2008.

@Ricadelide

I have been relunctant to reply you, just for the same reason y I was relunctant to draw issues with u initially, over this "spirit" thing.  and apparently this will be my last correspondence with u over this thread.  y?
because my sense of reasoning tells me that a disscussion/debate/information is for 3 purposes
a)pass knowledge, which is ascimilated
b)unlearn things u know, by learning from others.
c)butressing already known facts.
unfortunately none of these three is happening. but out of courtesy I will reply this correspondence for the last time. no insults intended.
now lets examine the issues u raised.

True that. I apologize. I said the same thing earlier,

apology accepted.

however, the nature of our discussion predicates on a proper understanding of the subject of the spirit. I didn’t go into it much in my earlier post and only did so when it became obvious that I and Bobbyaf aren’t on the same page.

No it doesnt, and if u think it does u were not able to prove that. I deduced from your first post that u were running away 4m the issues. Tayo-D mad refrence to the spirit, but did not deviate from the issue, that way I was willing to debate deep with him. he raised intellectual biblibical questions about spiritual beliefs, which I was ready to disscuss or debate out, but the moment he made refrence to your post as his stand, then I felt it was over. because yours was a whole diversion of the relevant issues. none the less I commend your biblibical expertise.

Lol . . . I doubt that even Bobbyaf himself, where he to “put into cognizance” the scriptures we have used, would claim he was/is right. Haba, you and Bobbyaf aren’t even saying the same things! Here is what Bobbyaf said

Quote
So in essence the spirit is the breath of life

If u read my last post, u will c that my first definition of the spirit was exactly what he said. I don't want to believe u re biased.

Ok. And?

be open to ascimmilating from it.

Really? Did you mean to say “the Hebrew (and likewise the Greek) word(s) can be translated to mean two main things?
If it is the former, then, this is where I differ:

I never implied or said anything of/or related to this. and did not expect u to dennote or connote such.

Unfortunately, or otherwise, the same words are translated in many instances to mean both “breath” and “spirit” and oftentimes other things. However, the context of the scripture in which those words are used allow translators to determine what is being referred to.

you are yet to prove this.

2) the state of man that provides unhindererd communication with God
Now, I DO agree with you here, albeit with some modifications/clarifications. I wouldn’t call it a ‘state’ of man, as though man can enter into and out of that ‘state’ as he pleases. Neither will I use the qualifier “unhindered”, for indeed, such faculty for communing with God in most people is actually quite HINDERED! (Their spirits being dead in sin Eph. 2:1) However, you are right in the sense that the very fullness of life of such a spirit IS the knowledge of God, as the Lord points out in John 17:3. Thus the spirits of natural man, who/which has lost this ability to communicate with God, is effectively said to be dead.

please don't argue because u have to. do so because u have something to say.
I stated in my last post that before Adam and eve sinned, they had unhindered communication with God, as a result of which the connection was lost. and that Jesus came to bridge that gap. which does not imply that d gap is now as implicit as it was.
I don't c any difference between what I said and this u have written, in refrence to the scriptures u have listed.

Ok. I don’t disagree that man is created in God’s image effectively as a spirit being. Where I disagree is your statement that “spirit can be interpreted to mean . . . breath of life”. So to clarify I’ll resort to questions:
          •   Are you aware that God mentions the animals as “having the breath of life in them” (see Gen. 6:17, 7:15)?
          •   If ‘spirit’ refers to ‘breath of life’ are you then saying that animals have spirits?
If you answer those I’d know how to proceed.

while your first position is correct (and actually the only thing I have ascimillated from u). you need to re-examine my explanation of the spirit. you are proposing a distinct nature of man to the body, a far cry from my position.
please honestly ask your self, what is spirit?, then re-read your posts, if they correspond send me an e-mail of your definition of spirit, then I will gladly draw issues with u over this spirit thing. if not, your guess is as good as mine.

I really don’t get exactly what you mean by your first statement: ‘defined, as though distinct from the body'.

what exactly do u not understand?

Not to be pedantic, do you mean ‘absent from’ the body?

No.

For the spirit is ALWAYS distinct from the body. And if what I alluded to is what you mean then I don’t agree, for one, the rich man in Jesus’ story (luke 16) was not ‘in communication with God’ as with many other instances I don’t want to go to now.

now I c y u are getting it all wrong.
luke 16`s rich man was in refrence to a parable, which doesnt imply direct communication with God.
I can't believe u said this.

Beyond that, I wouldn’t use the word ‘instincts’ to refer to spirit or spiritual things; ‘instincts’ are quite basal and primitive; even animals have some form ‘instincts’ (the case of the newborn animal's suckling instinct for example). A better word would be intuition.

please do me two favours.
a) refer to the part of my post where I used "instincts" to understand what I meant and to categorise it by your implicit definition os "spirit"
b) and please, then pick up a dictionary and compare "instincts" with "intuition" in refrence to what I said

One silly question: why do you usually put a ‘cry’ icon after saying cheers? I don’t get it
Just pulling your legs.
Cheers

i guess I will change the type of Icon, I look forward to recieving your e-mail if your definition of spirit does not in your sacroscant opinion differ with your earlier posts (mis-information)
have a lovely disscussion.
cheers

Ganjaseed:
The article says that more than a thousand Catholic priest died of AIDS every year.

this is not news, people die of aids every day including muslims.

Ganjaseed:
These priests are suppose to be celibacy priest from the Roman Catholics cult.

the articles didnt say the catholics are a cult group, except u have another evidence u re not telling us.

Ganjaseed:
How come they died of AIDS that can only be contracted by sex?

no my dear friend,aids is also contractable through other means. u can search for that on google.

Ganjaseed:
Who are they deceiving with their form of Godliness?

at least not u. they dont even notice or know u. they are doing it to God and to Him alone.

Ganjaseed:
leading more than million people to the pit of hell?

this u cant prove.
abi u don die b4, went to hell and saw catholics there?

if u answer yes, then I believe.
but if u answer no, , , , , , , , , ,
I wont b suprised

vigasimple:
As far as I am concern this is what RIBADU reffered to 'corruption fighting back when you fight corruption,

please provide a link to prove ribadu actually said this

vigasimple:
@ darmy$
You are not alone in people not trusting RIBADU from day one. you and people like you though are in the minority. and frankly speaking I wouldn't be suprised if some of your relation are the corruption RIBADU is chasing day and Night.

must u involve her relations in this, please limit your contributions to issues.
trust is a personal thing, a function of your instincts.
the basis for her lack of trust in ribadu has not been unfounded. Ribad has not been transparent in his activities as EFCC boss, but non the less he has done certain things that make us yearn for the annihilation of corruption. it doesnt mean he did exceedingly well.

vigasimple:
I WILL SAY IT TIME AND TIME AGAIN HOWSOEVER IMPERFECT RIBADU MAYBE, HIS EFCC LED IS THE ONLY ORGANISATION TODATE THAT AT LEAST FRIGHTEN EXECUTHIEVES APART FROM IMPRISONING CORRUPT BIG WIG POLITICIAN. IT IS AN ETERNAL RECORD IN THIS COUNTRY.

that explains y obj,bode george, toni anenih, sam egwu,ibb, gbenga daniel, el-rufai and co are afraid of him and his Efcc.
uhmn! what an analogy

vigasimple:
People like NWUDE has no iota of moral authority, a thief complaining that they have not sold off his stolen goods to people he wanted. Infact that should be part of his sentence to keep his bloody thief mouth shut or he will spend more time in prison. He duped other people from another country who are hoping to invest well over $250M in Nigeria and has the audacity to take paid advert and complain about EFCC arresting him and made to pay up.

true, but there is no honour amongst thieves. don't pre-empt investigations. let ribadu be proven not-guilty.
unti then, my fingers are crossed.

vigasimple:
IF RIBADU has skeleton in his cupoard, even ordinary small fry thief will have expose him by now.

y are u attempting to exonorate him?, even before it all begins. abeg let the process take its due course.

vigasimple:
All these with some out of date lawyers bringing proceedings just show the utter ridicule of thieves and their collaborator, they don't have shame, and if you also have 'due process' nonesense AGF, even lawyers like that will be advertising for corrupt politicians to come back from exile so that they can defend them for a cut of Stolen Nigerian monies that could have been invested in our decaying infrastrutures.

this remains your opinion, while it might be partially true, it doesnt justify ribadu`s inactions (assuming he stole like alledged)

vigasimple:
May all the people who have stolen nigerian monies continue to have sleepless Night

amen but please stand up for the truth especially when it matters most.

while I don't want to comment on this issue,because as typical of nigeria, there is more to it than we presently know.
only time will tell wether ribadu is a saint like we think or some monsters are bent on retarding our little anti-debauchry progress.

cheers

uhmn

fellow Nigerians

dont be decieved
We cannot afford to mortgage the future . . . . . . . . . there are so many political jobbers, marabounding as angels.


S-slow
L- lier
Y-yearn to embezzle more

Toyinrayo- another patrica Etteh in disguise

I-Man- PTF scandal, Pluto Fund (so many skeletons in his cupboard)

Toshmann- no expirience, no academic qualification (except toronto). he is a former soap maker.

Fello Nigerians, I promise to fight corruption, infact I will start from my opponents,
I will privatise EFCC, and buy it through my pretege, that way all my opponents will land in jain.

Vote Expirience, Vote Youth,
Support a Brighter Tommorow
Vote Noetic2008.

toshmann:
i will be a very good leader like abacha

we suspected all along

toshmann:
having examined all the candidates in the race
having perused their manifestos (if any)

what do u have to offer?

toshmann:
having assessed myself

when?

toshmann:
do hereby conclude as follows:
that I remain the best candidate for this office

says who?

toshmann:
that i will change the lives of our people forever

like Adolf Hitler and Abacha

toshmann:
that I will enhance freedom of speach for all nigerians

we don hear u

toshmann:
that i will introduce benefits for guys/babes who are hooked up
that i will encourage partying for our youth.

good idea, , , ,
courtesy of u Hiv/Aids will be massive. and u will produce a generation of lazy nigerians

toshmann:
justice shall be my watch word. . . therefore . . .

and so what?

any babe that refuses an innocent chyking shall be punished

good idea, more of this.

more of my manifestoes will be coming up soonest

we expect more jargons

I salute Toshmann, I salute beautiful women,
I salute my campaign
Hip hip hip . . . . . OKPEKEEEEEE

we don c u, , , , dey gooooooooooooo

olabowale:
If God were to have a son, the purpose of that son will be meaningless:

It all actually depends on the way u look at it.

If u look at it from the islamic point of view, He definitely doesnt need a Son. y?
cos he has slaves, to whom he gave a prophet called mohammed.
and as slaves they are entitled to no inheritance or special priviledges from the master,
maybe some lucky slaves.

If u look at it from the Xtian point of view,
the isrealites (b4 the advent of Jesus) were never refered to as slaves, they were His chosen people,
abraham was His friend,
moses was the meekest to Him,
and David was the man after His heart. No slave would have enjoyed any of these priviledges.

when the blood of their sacrifices could not atone for their sins anymore, then the Son came into the picture.

so attempting to analyse God`s thoughts or the purpose of his actions is a tragedy on anyone`s part. attempting to put human logic behind his actions is nullity. His ways are not ours, neither are His thoughts.
cheers

@ Topic

I wish it is not true, but considering the sanity in all of what Obj did in the recent past, I dont doubt it.
and the sun alledgedly said Gbenga swore to an affidavit. too bad!

but honestly I think obasanjo`s case is that of nemesis.
Everything he greedily accumulated is disintegrating, in his own life time, before his very own eyes.
I wont be surprised if like play, like play yaradua probes him.

lets all learn from Obj, cos wether we like it or not many of us will find ourselves in position of authority tommorow, lets all always remember not to loose ur head when others are loosing theirs.
I wish him all d best.

uhmn

After so much pressure from teeming nigerians, I am back in the race.

Vote Intelligence, Ideas, Vision and a Brighter Rewarding Future.

aditionally I promise to probe all acts of curruption from my fellow contestants:
I-Man(PTF saga)
Daviddylan (corridor of power corruption)

Support Vision2008
Vote NOETIC for President. . . . . . . . . . . .

Blackcat:
The answer : me and you

you are definitely right. we are the cause of our woes.

Blackcat:
The solution: Lies within us.(what are our men doing about our woes)

uhmn! we all need to get something done. and not sit down to cry over the woes of the land.