₦airaland Forum

geosegun:
@Olu317; ẹgbẹ̀rún kan is 1,000, ẹgbẹ̀rún l'ona ẹgbẹ̀rún is1,000,000

Yes, you are right. It was An error.

bluke:
egberun kan is 1000 (igba marun) 200x5

egberun lona egberun is 1,000, 0000

Yes you are right.

madridguy:
Day before yesterday, you asked me for evidence, yesterday you asked me for evidence and today again you asked me to proof myself, am not the type that talk too much as people that knows me very well knows. If it is 1 million naira job you ask me to do for you what would you do.
Meanwhile, brother i repeat which juju you gave the guy to do for you? Thy guy might be scam.

Kudos! Even without diacritics ,you gave a good translation. Although, you didn't mention the million in Yoruba language, which I struggled to get the translation as well. However, it is ẹgbẹ̀rún kán.

It is of a fact, that names connote nobility, royalty, wealthy and commoner classes of people in the ancient Yoruba world because Yoruba practice monarchy system, though with large characterisation of a balance social rights and equal opportunity's for all people in her domain. This is because Kings daughters or sons had always had the opportunity to be married to commoners children in the ancient Yoruba world which is still practised in today's . Therefore, Yorubas world view as regard classes of people can be attested to in organised monarchial societies across the world during the antiquity.

Unfortunately, disruption through wars, banishment from kingdoms, self exile , sojourning for greener pasture etc in Yoruba land had lexicons redefining amongst certain set of elite yoruba from Bishop Ajai Crowther, Rev. Samuel Johnson, Rev, E.A Showandé, Rev, T.A.J Ogunbiyi' era of mid 18th century upward to Early 19th century. Therefore, names and meaning have been misrepresented by a lot of us Yorubas, even among creme de la creme in today's society, such as Prof Wolé Shoyinká, Ex President Olusegun Obasanjo , whose linear knowledge of Yoruba names and meaning have misled a whole of younger Yoruba generation.

For instance , ọ́lọ́pá is misrepresented as a policeman in modern day Yoruba land by.speakers or natives who aren't vast in Yoruba lexicons,though the identification of police man with such has stuck. This is because the actual meaning of ọ́lọ́pá is, a priestly lineage known ọ́lọ́ - ọ́pá (one who is a bona fide member and mastery of ọ́pá society's knowledge)

Unfortunately, ọ́lọ́pá which is known in today's Yoruba lexicon for police personnel as well, is an idea for loose translation for ( one who hold unto club with his/her hand ), which is the descriptive meaning for police
But which is actually a common word known as, ṣọ, o-ṣọ ilú, oníkúmọ, olú-ṣọ etc.Though security, to guard, to protect,to watch over etc in the ancient Yoruba is known with name as ẹṣọ́, a word which was derived from the archaic Yoruba's, ṣọ , to secures, to protect etc. This word, ẹṣọ́ is used for adornment of the body,covering of the body from being nude protect, which simply shows the manner at which Yoruba language has been misrepresented.

Thus, the above analysis is the reason , I want us to juxtapose the actual meaning of,‘freeborn' and ‘slave' in Yoruba land.

Obalufon:
I am presently in Lagos .I promise to take the picture

Oh oh I see. Thank you very much for your tireless effort,even if it's inconvenient.

Regard,

Olu

@ Obalufon, greeting to you.Please I need a favour from you, as regard a picture of Opa Ogun's picture at Oja Oba axis in uleife, if you wouldn't mind. Therefore,it will do me more good to have your active email.


Regard as always.

CrimeKsmart:
you won't understand because you are not a Muslim. A true Muslim don't associate partner with Allah

Since you are a core Muslim and holier athan every Yoruba people . Can you actually inform on the etymology of Allah? . In Youbas cosmology, veneration of ancestors gives all the glory to the creator of heaven and earth known as Élé édà. Orisha is a word for yoruba ancestor as a replica of godman, who is fashioned after God,who created heaven and earth. Interestingly, God's colour is light Ala(Ela) in Yoruba language, that Muslims calls, Allah . Stop being Ignorant.

gregyboy:
Please i want to see the exact to this terracotta works most times i get to see claims on tge treccotta artworks eg 12 to 15c like kilode is that what the machine reads or is what tge yoruba claim untikk then the okdest art work with sustainable adequate date 14c and no more the others are claims


I like the fact that you see what i tried to portray to your brother toaf abi sister ....
I just simply drew a logical explanation to why that guy might have been wearing beeds even when it is a known fact in benin history that dwarfs are Royal by law he doubted and i brought out possible reasons too..

Your brother toaf is too cunny he comes with quote from sources and reference's and never post the links to the source like who does that? then when ask he tells me to go read the book or find the link my self...this claims he would present with authority .
The same claim i made that ceremonial sword was made during the ogiso era he doubted even it came from edo site but he expect me to believes is claim becsuse he attach foreign reference....

I have decided not to respond to him again

Logical reasoning is far from what's at stake here because evidence is the parameter to substantiate your opinion. As I had mentioned earlier, kindly do verify as regard the Necklace rosette etc in comparison with Near East work so that you can appreciate Yorubas ancestors craftsmanship in the antiquity. Take time to verify Near East visual Art , jewelry, beads , rossete in , ‘ The Metropolitan Museum of Art Bulletin 1984', and view as follows:

1. Necklace with pendants. Gold. Southern Meso- potamia, ca. 19th-18th century B.C. L. 1615/16 in. (43 cm.). Fletcher Fund, 1947 (47.la-h)

Necklace with Bes head and figured plaques. Gold Iran, Achaemenid period, ca. 5th-4th century B.C. H. 19/16 in. (4 cm.), L. 141/8 in. (35.9 cm.). Dodge Fund, 1965 (65.169)

And do compare with:

1.Oonis adornment,

2. Yoruba's terracotta, alloy copper, ceramic etc works

3.Depiction of bird on Yorubas Kings crown

Perhaps these renowned people's work will aid you:

Eluyemi 1986
Omotoso Eluyemi, “Technology of Ife Glass Beads: Excavations at Igbo-Olokun, Ile-Ife, Nigeria,” in The Social and Economic Contexts of Technological Change, The World Archaeological Congress, September 1–7, 1986, London: Allen and Unwin, 1986.

Euba 1982
Akin Euba, “Of Blue and Red Beads: The Role of Ife in the West African Trade in Kori Beads,” Journal of the Historical Society of Nigeria, December 1981–June 1982, 1982, pp. 109–127.

Eyo 1974
Ekpo Eyo, “Odo Ogbe Street and Lafogido: Contrasting Archaeological Sites in Ile-Ife, Western Nigeria,” West African Journal of Archaeology, v. 4, 1974, pp. 99–109.

Fagg 1972
Angela Fagg, “A Preliminary Report on an Occupation Site in the Nok Valley, Nigeria: Samun Dukiwa,” West African Journal of Archaeology, v. 2, 1972, pp. 75–79.

Freestone 2006
Ian C. Freestone, “An Indigenous Technology? A Commentary on Lankton et al., ‘Early Primary Glass Production in Southern Nigeria,” Journal of African Archaeology, v. 4, no. 1, 2006, pp. 139–141.

Frobenius 1913 Leo Frobenius, The Voice of Africa, v. 2, London: Hutchinson & Co., 1913.

Garlake 1974
Peter Garlake, “Excavation at Obalara’s Land, Ife: Interim Report,” West African Journal of Archaeology, v. 4, 1974, pp. 111–148.


Ige 2009 O. Akin Ige, “Ancient Glassmaking in Ile-Ife, Southwestern Nigeria,” paper presented at the 18th Congress of the Association Internationale pour l’Histoire du Verre, T hessaloniki, September 15–28, 2009.

gregyboy:
Never said they wernt slaves even Joseph was s prisoner and was later favoured by pharaoh ...

Yea the dwarfs were owned by the benin royals and they personal answers to the oba
Dont get me wrong all dwarfs in the kingdom both born by commoners by the obas were under tge custodian of the benin palace some were slaves and some where citizen's or commoners so we never knew if that dwarf was a commoner all we knew that all dwarfs were originally owned by the oba and slaves who were not freeborn could rise to attain it

Am i wrong olu317

As far as I am concerned, you can defend ypur identity as regard Edoland and I don't doubt the fact that Oba Binu was absolute in authority over his domain in that era, with a totalitarian monarchial system. But let us not mix the identities of royal blood and slave up because :

1. Freeborn is different from a slave though can become a servant.

2. Freeborn can become a slave if being captured by another kingdom which isn't of his/her ancestral home land. And this isn't in contention

3. A dwarf of Oba Binu lineage's (doubt it) can't be a slave nor be under a law which would had made him a royal guard. Though can be a Prince warrior son who may go on expedition or some sort to found a new kingdom e.g Ora in Edo land.

4. There is a difference between royalty and commoners in the ancient time . In fact, certain names are purely restricted within noble and royal bloodline.

5. Yes, there are times that a slave or servant assumes the position of Oyatse in Bini kingdom,which is as a result of war persecution or great exploits in the old Binuland.

6.You need understand that there were two different dynasty that existed in Edoland, which were, Pre and Post 1170AD , according to Binu chronology. Oramia(Oranmiyah) era was actually seen as the era of Oba, which falls within the era of Lost Wax in West Africa.


7. Beads production in Yoruba people had been in Bc Beside because there are prototypes of alloy works,terracotta, Clay etc outside Africa. In fact, similar sculpture art works are found in Near East

gregyboy:
What why do they call them “royal guards"

It stated members of royal family meaning not by blood only both the chiefs the dukes families and any body else who stool is royal to the kingdom

Yorubas is this who you bring to debate me ....
Little wonder why benins conqured the yorubas state upto ife...

You need to be literal with English language! So stop being ignorant . Royal Guard doesn't mean being a member of royal bloodline. Instead, Royal Guard is a security is one or people who protect the Royal (monarch's )lineage with his life or their lives. Plainly, a slave is a slave while a freeborn is a freeborn. Royal Guard is a slave to the monarch.

TAO11:
That young man is a rookie!

@goalernestman in case you're still lurking around in the background, find attached the figure of the Ooni of Ife (dated to the century) that was placed in the Benin kingdom palace as a symbol of the suzerainty of the Ooni of Ife over Benin kingdom.

The concept is similar to the modern idea of placing the official portraits of Presidents and Governors in official buildings as a recognition of their authority.

Nice one Olu317

You deserve more praises with your articulated references. Kudos you, all the way to you.

Stay bless,

Cheers.

@ goalernestman, it seems you are new to information or better still a very young lad. If you are in doubt, kindly go to your Edo Museum to view the photo of the Ooni's copper alloy that way dug out in Bini palace.


In perpetual shock do I realise that you have no idea of linear intellectual juxtaposition. Therefore, no attention shall be given to you until you go verify from National Museum in Edo state. In fact, I am disappointed that you don't know there is a National Museum in Edo State. . Wonders shall never end!

goalernestman:
I see many Yorubas here lying since with no fact let me remind you this.

Oyo, Yoruba, Yoruba bronze, Yoruba beads Yoruba territory, Yoruba map, land was known in the worlds from 18th century before 18th century there was noting like Yoruba in world map or anything related to Yoruba, people that was in west Africa guinea was known as Benin Ghana dahomey Cameroon or biafra.

Accept if you can prove me wrong with a fact not from Yoruba site or person or people born after 18th century

What has map got to do with the glaring fact? Sometimes, I wonder the reason set of Oviedos in your like manner don't bring fact but peddle false map information online to justify your kingdom. Anyway, Ooni's Visual Art( wearing a veil with full regalia was dug out in Benin palace, c. early 14th century ce of a Copper alloy. The picture can be seen in National Museums, Benin. While the Photo was Courtesy of Hunterian Museum And Art Gallery, university Of GLasgow.


Imagine how ignorant some of you are?Ooni of IléIfè statue was dug oout in Bini which date back to 14th century work, which was a gift to Oba Bini. Stil you kept portraying yourself as someone wjo can't comprehend affirmative or negative! I am surprised

Advice: be humble to accept the bitter but truth of Yoruba's pioneering influence on Edo people's production sector.

?

TAO11:
Hi geosegun and Olu317:

I feel deeply humbled and pleased by your generous descriptions of my ordinary self. The words are so kind and generous that I feel undeserving of them. Thank you very much.

Regarding gender: It's only courteous and respectful that individuals be addressed only how they've made it quite clear that they want to be addressed (regardless of how "intimidating" or "weak" their words come across as) unless they confirm otherwise on an individual/personal basis.

I personally feel that other people's gender identity should be the least of our problems (if at all it should be part of our problems). We have more urgent, important, pressing, and interesting issues and problems to discuss or solve, I believe.


On "collaboration": Although it is not entirely clear to me what this is to be about; I like to, first of all, acknowledge that your burning and deep passions for anything Yorùbá is not unnoticeable. I really commend you guys for that.

However, I regret to say that I have other views on "collaboration" in this area. I personally do not think that non-scholars/non-academics of Yoruba like us (at least like me) are well placed or equipped to undertake a serious independent investigation of newer areas of Yoruba history.

The idea of not being a scholar or academic of Yoruba is, to me, mutually exclusive to the idea of undertaking a serious investigation.

I feel very strongly that if they're not scholars and academics, then their so-called investigations can not be taken seriously (especially in academia); and if it was a serious investigation, then it was never undertaken by rookies, mere enthusiasts or non-scholars/non-academics.

Some individuals with the appropriate scholarly and academic competence (who have been through the relevant formal training and experience) are best reserved, for such serious work.

Moreover, I believe that a quite thorough investigation of the history of the Yorubas (which looks more closely into the sources, the evidence, and the contemporary or prevailing scholarly consensus) have recently been published in the works of S. Adebanji Akintoye's A History of The Yoruba People, Amalion Publishing, 2010.


Lastly, I took up reading Yoruba history and commentary on Nairaland only as a pastime. I do this just to ease off the stress from my other packed and tough engagements in my own area of research/interest. This especially may not allow me the time for other thorough, serious, and novel research into new areas of Yoruba history even if I have the scholarly competence which I believe others (and not me) do have. We should task the experts on new areas of investigation.

This is my humble submission on "collaboration".

Cheers!

Wow! This is quite elaborate as the information indeed has given me a lee way to understanding your love for Yoruba history and culture. God bless you Ma'am.

As regard, ‘collaboration' , you surmised your view for being actively involved in this Culture section to what you do and term,‘ pasttime' ,which many people do but not I,because my purpose is to be taken seriously as a scholar on this discipline. With due respect, do I repeat that you and others with meaningful contribution on nairaland Culture's Section have been awesome. Bless you all


With much respect to scholars who have contributed to the history of Yoruba history from all angle, irrespective of their certification. However, there are area with flaws which Yoruba historians , ethnographers, etc haven't rectified, which scholars have to look into. In which is the someone as I, and others use scholarly angle to contribute our own quota. Mind you, historians are limited and restricted to certain level of information based on narrative they have access to from the local or indigenes

Ilorin as a case study,showed Yorubas founded this city but its a cosmopolitan city. God forbid, but Imagine if Yorubas, were wiped out of that city when Afonja died or killed, who do think would have reconstructed the histroy of the city to suit themselves? The new group of course, which affirm to a Yoruba proverb,which says, ‘ ẹ́ní mọ́ ìtán lo nì'lẹ́ (One with seemingly vast knowledge of a location is the owner of the land). Invariably, a suppressed version on such land or history is null and void,if it is based solely on historical angle. As far as I am concern, Ethnography (anthropology), hieroglyphic, ideogram, Archeology, Linguistics etc need be used to verify claims by Historians because being a scholar is beyond what a lot people assume through African perspective because it is about having a universal knowledge, in which one become a master in such specific area of interest. To further butress my point on a scholar, as follows:

i. A student; one who studies at school or college.

ii. A specialist in a particular branch of knowledge.

iii. A learned person; a bookman.

iv. People who educate themselves for their whole life.

Having posits the meaning through English Dictionary proofs that you and others with fantastic information are scholars and capable if you desire to complement yourself with additional paper,in other to write journal on this area of choice . Although, you may refuse to decide not to further yourself on this area of Yoruba culture based on self conviction. However, you can always remain a ‘Maven', to many of us.


Lastly, teaching people what I know is the reason I submit to it humbly when one of us made projection on collaboration. Plainly, Quran is written in a Semite language and Yoruba do study it as reading . Thus, the over 4000 years symbol (writing) of the classical Levant, can be read if caucasians can educate themselves in it . Why not us the Yorubas doing same? At least, it helps expands one's understanding of tje worldview from another angle.


Stay bless,
Cheers

geosegun:
Waiting for @TAO11 to comment on her highly esteemed opinion

Cool

geosegun:
I want to believe @TAO11 is a She, unless she says otherwise. I respect her knowledge and scholastic approach to cultural issues. She earns my respect too. I think both could collaborate and possibly unravel and share some hidden histories about the Yorubas. There is something special about the race. I am just curious...

I am yet to see a lady that's this deep in cultural and traditional histories.

Good day to you Sir, interestingly, you and I share same name if indeed yours start with my own moniker's ID.

As regarding your view TAO11's identity? As far as I am concerned at this moment, you are 100% accurate ,which in actual fact shocked my conscience beyond my wildest imagination. That being affirmed truthfully posit a great future for Yoruba's female generation because such personality are rare and hopefully more her will appear for good.

On collaboration:

Without iota of doubt, you arent wrong about your perception but there is a clause; ‘selfless ',which remains, what can propel me to work with anyone. Even you, have actually underestimated your personality before me, because I am not ‘one man show believer', because the more in numbers the merrier. In plain term,I see you also as partner in progress.

On the groundbreaking on Yoruba history cum languaage qand its obscurity:

This has been revealed by the sovereign God unto me, through grace and my studying, because without the power of creation( Ela),it will be an impossible feat for me to achieve. Plainly, I have matched what need matched from hieroglyphs. Fortunately, the beauty of knowledge is ‘sharing'. In this regard, remain the reason for our own people to learn what I have learned, do research on area of interest but neglected in the past, criticise the work and eventually good for a summit in western world.

Interestingly, caucasians' big bang theory is defined, as ‘Light'(English), which is the sources (now recognised as electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength of 400-750 nm), within which vision is(exist). In Yoruba's cosmology,this is what Eala or ‘Álá' means (light). The striking semblance is Ellah in Classical Hebrew and Allah in Arabic.

Furthermore, Olumide started something massive about Yoruba people but Biobaku(Professor) condemned this man's researched work because he, Olumide was not actually a historian. Al Ilori (Islamic) went further to justify Yoruba's cognates with Arabic word, which he, and others thought were because of Islamic religion? A false perception.

In search of Yoruba obscure identity and her language , Folorunso (2009: p. 16) is of the opinion that the origin of the Yoruba people remains uncertain, that no definite knowledge has emerged.

Today, I have researched and still researching Yoruba independently beyond Nigeria's shore. Interestingly, I have answers to many things but which will take close to five+(5+), years to unravel, because of factors as you had concluded on ‘Collaboration and with addition of Semitic studying by my collaborators.

God bless you Sir,


Cheers,


Olù

TAO11:
Okay Ma!

Haaaa! I sense I have offended you as regard my surmision of you being a man . I guess, it was due to the fact that some men have polluted my mind of being mischievous about their sex .Kindly forgive me ma'am because of this mistake.

Nevertheless, I am a Man and not a lady. In truth, I underestimated a Nigerian lady's prowess in the culture section because such as type are rare. I must confess, you have been highly instructive and orderly in all yours posts and references.


God bless you ma'am,





Cheers

TAO11:
Did I not just "agree" that you (mere enthusiast & pseudohistorian) are right about Ife traditions; while experts/scholars are wrong, and that the custodians of Ife traditions are also wrong about their own traditions??

Did I not just "agree" to that concerning the issue of facial markings as scarification or temporary marking??

Did I not??

You did Sir.




Cheers.

TAO11:
Honestly speaking, your comment here is (to me) at best rough, and at worst incomprehensible and unintelligible --- I hesitate to say it is gibberish.

I genuinely appeal to anyone here who is able to glean the meaning of this comment (as well as how it relates to the specific exchange here) to please assist me with an intelligible rendition of it.

However, I suspect that this comment of yours is still to the same effect as your earlier comments, namely that:

The scholarly and expert submissions of Adepegba 1975 and Blier 2012 (both based on "Ife oral tradition") should be trashed; while your personal wish/word-of-mouth (which is based on ?) should be upheld.

I am not absolutely certain what impression of yourself you're trying give off by insisting that your "amateurish" wish must be accepted instead of expert and scholarly submissions which are based on the traditions.

But if you still insist --- even now --- that the "vertical line facial markings" do not represent "scarification" (even as "Ife oral tradition" says it does), then I should now be wise enough to "agree" with you that you are right, and the experts (as well as the custodians of "Ife oral tradition" ) are wrong

Have a good one!

Oh I see ! So the custodians know everything? Oh k .

1.These same custodians who cant identify Obatiseala and Odua father respectively?

2.The same custodians that read through Suzzane Blier's Journal who claimed Yoruba ancestors were sungod worshippers and Earth worshippers?

3.Even amongst these same set of Yoruba custodians cum early Christians scholars claimed Yẹ̀ṣùà(ẹ̀ṣù) as satan, while Hebrew: Yeshua, ; English : Jesus(Jèsù) is the messenger of God ?

4. Who is Yeshua? Who is ẹ̀ẹ̀ṣù?

Thus, my conclusion is that this post remained a reference point in the future so that experts who peruse through this site can carefully do justice to the actual interpretation from different angle of the present.Perhaps I shall use Afro asiatic of Kemet era and Semitic(antiquity) language, history to justify my assertion.


Stay blessed

TAO11:
Smiles! It appears to me that you have other motives than your original contention which you raised when you first 'mentioned' me.

Let me state very clearly that my objective for replying you now is not to debate any issue and every issue just for the sake of debating. No, my objective is to address only the specific issue which you had originally mentioned me on. So, I may not be distracted.

Having said that, if I understand correctly, your original contention was that the "vertical line facial markings" simply represents temporary facial tattoos, and that "vertical line facial markings" were never used as scarification at any time in Ife society.

In reply to your contention, I adduced three strands of independent evidence, each showing that the "vertical line facial markings" does indeed represent scarification; and that the practice later came to be forbidden and outlawed among Ife resident members.

The following are the three strands of independent evidence of scarification I adduced:

(a) Suzanne P. Blier's scholarly submission published in a prestigious peer-reviewed journal (not a book as you presumed) which she gave on the basis of a received corpus of oral traditions from Ife, and not on the basis of her imagination as you've apparently presumed.

(b) Indigenous Adepegba Cornelius O. 1976 which had noted, about thirty-six years before Blier Suzanne P. 2012, that the "vertical line facial markings" represent facial scarifications.

(c) A photograph showing, in black and white, that the vertical line facial scarification is a cultural reality.


My expectation of your reply was that you would demonstrate the following with scholarly evidence:

(a) How Blier's submission on this specific issue (as well as the review of the expert team of African Arts Journal reviewers, on the same specific issue) are all based on nothing but their respective imaginations, rather than based on the received corpus of oral traditions from Ife.

(b) How Adepegba's submission too in this specific regard, which is thirty-six years earlier than Blier's, is also based on nothing but his imagination, rather than on the basis of received corpus of oral traditions from Ife.

(c) And how the attached photograph which clearly shows vertical facial scarification is nothing more than an optical illusion messing with everyone's mind.

(d) After which I expected that you would then adduce scholarly evidence to substantiate your claim that such "vertical line facial markings" were never used as scarification in Ife.


Nay, you didn't do any of the foregoing, but rather you went on to submit your views on other matters (such as opa Oranmiyan, Ife-Yoruba dialect, Ogun Alaka-aiye, etc.) in relation to which you disagree with the renowned leading Havard Professor and Historian of African Art, who in her several years of experience has consulted widely in Ile-Ife on the corpus of Ife traditions, and have directly examined the materials and artefacts first hand --- materials which you probably haven't come any close to, except digitally.

However, whether you think you're right and Suzanne P. Blier, et al. among other experts are all wrong on all these other issues (i.e. opa Oranmiyan, Ife-Yoruba dialect, Ogun Alaka-aiye, etc.) is not what I want to be distracted by, or dragged into; the fallacy of your argument here is what I intend to point out.

You can not maintain that an individual is wrong on a certain specific issue just for the sole reason that you believe they are wrong on some other issues. Such reasoning/argument is a failed one. It is an inductive logical fallacy known in argumentation as faulty generalization or the pars pro toto fallacy.



If after the three strands of independent evidence I have adduced you still maintain that such "vertical line facial markings" were never used as scarification in Ife; then your task, as I have mentioned earlier, is simply to demonstrate:


(a) How Blier's submission on this specific issue (as well as the review of the expert team of African Arts Journal reviewers, on the same specific issue) are all based on nothing but their collective imaginations, rather than based on the received corpus of oral traditions from Ife.

(b) How Adepegba's submission too on this specific issue; which is thirty-six years earlier than Blier's; is also based on nothing but his imagination, rather than on the basis of received corpus of oral traditions from Ife.

(c) How the attached photograph which clearly shows vertical facial scarification is nothing more than an optical illusion messing with everyone's mind.

(d) And to then adduce scholarly evidence to substantiate your claim that such "vertical line facial markings" were never used as scarification in Ife.


Cheers!

It is obvious you have confined me over my overzealousness and I shall be within the confinement Sir. But you need consider such personality as mine even if you don't understand my school of thought,which is purity ideology; not black mentally nor Caucasian apologist but the ‘light' believer. And I am sure you know light don't burn but produces leverage heat(now recognised as electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength of 400-750 nm), within which vision is possible.

So, a failure in an area of study has never been seen by I as an avenue to compete or quit . Instead, it is a catalyst which propels my spiritman to be more humble before my creator(eleda) and humanity. Thus, it is not an offence to err or I see a different angle to the scarification,which have been analysed before now by other until Suzzane Blier, ,which you hold her interpretation in high regard as I did (past). Therefore, I posit as follow to your questions:

A
i. Yoruba ancestors were not barbaric to make linear permanent scarification on the their belly as seen in other groups in Africa, which were found in one of the king's body. Instead, it is for ritual purpose because a semitc group did this also. I am sure you are aware these kings are part of Yoruba history and ancestors to all of us. And I am yet to see anyone in Nigeria or west Africa to claimed Yoruba ancestors as their descendants or equal their mastery in Visual Art work. Furthermore, I am sure you are aware that even the Greek in their glory could not match Yorubas alloy work or copper visual Art being displayed in Europe talk less of others during their era. Verify my assertion.


ii. Scarification of such magnitude aren't done on the eyelid's tiny area of the face in Yoruba land. Verify my assertion.


iii. Scarification are never done on the tip of the nostril in Yoruba land,which is seen on the heads. It is also not seen on the screenshot which you compared with the Yoruba kings. Verify my assertion


iii. Scarification is not done on the tip of the lips that's seen on some of the heads but artistry work or archaic method of moulding the Visual Art work. Verify my assertion


iv. The difference in crowns and caps were because of different era of Yoruba kings. Kindly do research on crown's history, in Africa's and Near East's worldview. Verify my assertion


v. Bétamarribé is a tribe in Benin Republic that has a more tinier scarification as seen in your claim of the Yoruba kings but not a justification of autochthon, in Ileife Nigeria,because itbhas nothing to do with the Yoruba's kings and their different era of reign.
Verify my assertion.

vi. The Ileife people who were told of these differences remembered only the war of Oranmia(oranmiyan) are supposed to know this information yet a non indigenous custodians were seen as identifying who was who in Yoruba kingly lineage . What a pity! Verify this information

B. Your answer is in (A-i). Beside, wisdom during the era of Adepegba over three decades ago is different in today's Yoruba's worldview.

C. Your answer is in (A iii)

D. Scholarly adduction will surface because each work done on a subject matter as this magnitude and as regard humanity are always criticised by incoming scholars. So wait for it. Beside, I decided to point this direction to you so that you can be critic of it because I have followed you orderly references scholarly arrangement.


Conclusion:
The crowns, caps represent different people and different era in yoruba kings lists, which have been lost briefly but not outrightly because the written scroll on Yoruba ethnicity is out there begging to be unraveled. Kindly do research on Africa'sand Near East's worldview on kings crown to understand their reason for the stylistic caps of Yoruba Bá( O bá).




Cheers

AreaFada2:
Lol, I am not sir. But the different stories that emanate from it bring up questions begging for answers.

It is natural that people can either be truthful or filled with lies. As far as we are concerned anyone can be related to Odua and being related to the man doesn't necessarily mean direct son. The bottomline is that any authentic relationship will naturally be through matrilineal or patrilineal connection to be directly linked to Odua dynasty. Mind you,Yoruba have multiple twin birth. In fact, there are quantifiable twins in my family lineage.

TAO11:
Thanks for your comment bro!

But I must say that you're quite mistaken bro, and I say this with utmost humility.

You've conflated two different historical realities here. One of "vertical line facial markings", and the other of "thick vertical facial lines".

The former (i.e. "vertical line facial markings" ) represents facial "scarification" which is associated with the earlier autochthonous dynastic line of Ife.

The second reality (i.e. "thick vertical facial lines" ) represents "short-term patterns on the skin" made from "blister beetles or leaves ("from the bùjé plant" )".

This second reality is some temporary facial tattoo on certain later individuals who (according to scholars) do this (at certain ritual times) in reference to the earlier practice of facial "scarification" --- a "scarification" practice which came to be forbidden and outlawed for Ife resident members of the earlier autochthonous dynastic line.


Refer to:
Suzanne Preston Blier, "Art in Ancient Ife: Birthplace of the Yoruba", African Arts, Winter 2012, Vol. 45 (4), pp. 75, 76, and 77.

Also, refer to footnote 15 to be rest assured that the "vertical line facial markings" refer to "scarification", unlike the "thick vertical facial line" cited from Willett 1967 which refer to certain temporary tattoo.


Notice, in footnote 15, that although Suzanne P. Blier disagrees with Adepegba 1976 that the "vertical line facial markings" relate to the later Ife dynastic line (instead of the earlier autochthonous Ife dynastic line); they are both unanimous that the "markings" are scarifications.

https://scholar.harvard.edu/files/blier/files/blier.pdf


In fact, the photograph I had sometimes attached in some of my comments here already settles the fact that the "vertical line scarification" is a cultural reality.

Thanks and regards!

Interestingly, I am abreast with the book in which you referenced ; Art in Ancient Ife ; ‘The Birth Place of Yoruba'

Suzanne Prester Blier,says, ‘……...ancient Ife terracotta animals identified with Obatala, among these the elephant and duiker antelope heads from the Lafogido site.'

Suzzane says , ‘........….terracotta sculptures of ram and hippopotamus heads from Ife’s Lafogido site. Both animals seem to be connected to the Odudua line and the associated sky deity pantheon of Sango among others (Idowu 1962:94, 142; Matory 1994:96).

My research on her view are:

1. She used her own knowledge to determine how Yoruba ancestor lived in the past, which was wrong.


2. In the same book,she claim Ileife Language is different from other Yoruba language? ¿. How true Sir?


3. She failed to understand that Obatiseala descendants, Odua's and others are associated with elephant,ram and other animals proscribed by Ufa(ifa). These can be seen in both Obatiseala and Odua's descendants panegyric

4. .Besides, both Obatala and Odua also use ram for sacrifice during chieftaincy coronation.


5. Again, it is an insult on Yorubas who understand my ancsestors stance on God as she claim odua is associated with diety of the sun; Sango while Obatala is associated to imólé worship.

6. Interestingly, Ogun Lakaiye is a descendants of Odua and mastery in iron production as well as war prosecution , yet, Obatala descendants are in charge of God of Iron? Why is Obalufon I of 12th century credited with Iron production ?



7. She says' ‘the Florescence Period (Ogundiran’s Classical Period) is distinguished by both roulette- and cord-decorated ceramics. Within a relatively short time span in this period, what I identify as Ife’s High Florescence, most of the early arts appear to have been made. One can date this period to c. 1250–1350 ce based on a range of factors, including the thermoluminescence tests of key metal works and the likely reign era of Obalufon II.'

Are you justifying this fact of pegging iron industrialization of 1250th-1350th c.e , I mean, did these Kings reigned and die prematurely within 100 years ?




8. Suzzane Blier does pay attention to the Opa Oranmian because it is an ivory in shape,which is of elephant. Is oranmian a descendant of Obatiseala?

9. Apart from this , the opa oranmian shows inscription which is of Near East lettering that nulled the view as it regard power tussle been heavily speculated to buttress the nullification of facial marking. In fact have you ever seen any group who claimed to be Yoruba ancestors in the northern Nigeria?

10. Well, Ogun Lakaaiyè existed before Obalufon II and his stone known as Opa Ogun is shape cylindrical bulb in nature ( eye), if you understand what phallic(in shape) mean in archeological world is situated in Ileife old market. Do you actually know what Opa oranmian and Opa Ogun mean?


11. She also claimed this era of the second coming of Obalufon II (1250-1350 c.e ) appears to mark the beginning of the ‘Odudua' dynasty. How true can this be?

In conclusion: one cant use her study on scarification to differentiate the autochthonous in ancient Ufe of Nigeria even if in truth there were disagreement between these two groups because ọ́rá is a binding name to both families. And non outside Yoruba land had knowledge ọ́rá until ọ́rámian appeared in Ogodomigodo.

TAO11, there is one thing you need understand about the mark on the ancient Ileife King's ,which was as a result of ceremonial or ritual time which were engrave temporarily with the usage of bújè(a plant bearing a round fruit in which the juice is used for tattooing) . So, it is not actually a Yoruba's ethnic mark. Tbere are infimation that posit that Yoruba's civilization dated back thousands of years ago.

Kokoebapluse:
According to ifa ( Oracle)( odu) means something like title or let say topic.

And( iwa) means character. As ifa ( Oracle) say and show about destiny of odudua it means (title of character) and they name him after his destiny according ifa view, but as time passes on and people pronounced change it as normal thing as we all know so they turn it to odudua, but his real name is (odu iwa.)

The name Odudawa or Dawaodu is drawn from the word of God ( Ifaodu or Oduifa). And loosely transliterated as :
Odu da Iwa or Da Iwa Odu are both same in meaning.

Meaning:
Odu~ vessel or base or foundation or orbit or source

Da~ create or mould or form

Iwa~ stainless or spotless or perfect or holy or Godly identity

AreaFada2:
My brother, the desperation of every Yoruba monarch to claim direct descent from Oduduwa is really frightening. It's an attempt to claim legitimacy.

Oduduwa was never the biological forebear of all Yoruba or all Yoruba monarchs. Simply impossible.

What began as a political move to unite Yoruba people under one forebear has been taken to another level of comedy.

So Akanbi is not the branch of Oduwa that produced the main (7 or so) Yoruba kings?

After Oduyale, who will suddenly come out of the Wood works, Odumosu?

Sir, are you the Master historian that know Yoruba kingly lineage? Kaarè

lawani:
though I don't know the etymology of aguda or geesi but Yoruba language does not flow like you are making out.

Well,you are entitled to your opinion and I am a learner so therefore I can be flawed with more concrete view once such appears. However, Yoruba language in actual fact flow as I posited them because Yoruba words are always descriptive to achieve the targetted meaning. Trust me, I know these things so much because many of the words I had posted were actually word that came from 1911 Yoruba dictionary, which were part of the 1943-1944 dictionary rendered by Ajayi crowther. And I am sure you can access this and other Yoruba dictionaries.

In strong agreement do I accept the idea that the two names did existed before recoining of these names to suit the English and Returnees Yoruba Brazilians.

First,these two names do fit as having triliteral root, because Aguda and Geesi ; ‘G U D', and G I S' ~ ‘G IY S'. So, it is important to look beyond the attached sentiments to Yoruba Brazilians returnees as being the basis for the names since we know the ancient Yoruba are deeper in thoughts through their language development which are always descriptive in nature to identify anything,thus make them far more astounding than many of us in the modern world. Therefore,these words can be said to have multiple meaning which I intend to make a piece interpretation to each name,which is as follow:

1.Àgùdá

Ag u da

Agu~ one that stab

ùdà ~sword,cutlass

~ one who masters the usage of sword; swordman


2.Gẹ́ẹ́sí

Gẹ́ ~ sit comfortably on a seat

ẹ́ ~ it's/it

Sì~(adv.) slowly

(conj.) and, also,likewise

(,prep.)into,at,against

(pro.) who

(v.i) to be , exist

~ one who sit comfortably on a seat; lord, king,wealthy one, Noble, etc

There are Hausa pagans but I'm yet to see a Hausa Christian being a northerner and living in the north all my life. If there are they must be a new breed of converts. But religion should not affect Hausa culture. Hausa culture is one and shame regardless of religion.

This statement is vague because there are hausa Christians. Perhaps , you can posit the ethnicity of these four people :

1. Rev. Dr. Stephen Panya Baba. A man who was born in Karu on January 20, 1932 to Baba and Gnubwanyi, both of them Gbayi of Nasarawa State on Nigeria.Rev. Stephen Panya Baba is the President of, The Evangelical Church Winning All(ECWA) . The church name was previously known as the Evangelical Church of West Africa and remains one of the biggest church in Northern Nigeria

2. Haruna Jacob Dandaura a Hausa Christian, was born in Gizo in Gummel Emirate of former Kano Province of Nigeria.

3. Yusuf Jatau was born in 1929 at Gidan Jibir, Sabon Sarki District, in the Kachia Local Government Area of Kaduna State, Nigeria.Yusuf Jatau was a prominent minister of the Nigerian Baptist Convention

4.Rev. Sule Magaji was the United Missionary Church District Superintendent of the Arewa (northern) District from 1973 to 1991.Sule Magaji was the youngest son of Bata Pani and Obko, born around 1921 at Kdigni, now in Mahuta Local Government Area of Kebbi State, then Sokoto Province of Nigeria. He comes from the Romna clan of the Lelna, formerly known by the Hausa name, Dakarkari.

I restricted the names because of what you inferred. And I hope you know the above four people's followers~members would be northerners.

igbodefender:
Who can explain why there is Egbeda both in Igbo Land and in Yoruba Land?

Peradventure you dont know,your claim is quite incorrect, in the method of yours to connect Yoruba and Ibo from a wrong angel even if there is a possible that there were ever a connection during the Kemet's or pre Kemet era . Unfortunately, your position on Egbe ada and Yoruba's Egbeda is seemingly homonym and doesnt fulfil your purpose at all because I am sure you know, you already have the knowledge of the meaning which I interpreted from Yoruba's angle even if the word can be further interpreted to others.

Let me infer another one Homonym (false cognate) and Akin (true cognate) between Ibo and Yoruba, so that you can position yourself from the angle you desired. With humility do posit this, that perhaps, you have a Yoruba blood running inside of you. Below are



True cognate

Ibo: Ewu
Meaning: goat

Yoruba: Èwú
Meaning: female goat

Yoruba: Èwu re
Meaning: your female goat

Yoruba: orú ~ kọ́
Yoruba: obú~ kọ́
Meaning: male goat

Unfortunately, a lot of city Yoruba people and few Ibo likes you thought Èwu in Yoruba is strictly goat but failed to understand the yoruba ancestors were deeper thinkers (wisemen) because ‘È wú', obú, Orú, are all description of the goat when ‘ her/his(it) mouth swell t o ‘cough' i.e struggling within self throat to cough.

In doubt?

Yoruba: wú ~kọ́
Meaning: human cough
Yoruba: kọ́
Meaning: make sound,call etc ọ́

False Cognate

Ibo: Oku
Meaning: light

Yoruba :Oku
Meaning: dark

You need know ypruba is extensively deeper than from the lighter angle you look at it even if many words in Yoruba land are homonymous in nature. These words serves the purposes they all meant from the owners language angle



God bless your effort.




Cheers

bigfrancis21:
They are not the same. One is Egbe-ada (in Imo, meaning might be 'no gunshots heard') and the other is Egbeda (Yoruba land).

Yoruba's Égbẹ́-dà —Égbẹ́dà :

Is a contemporary established settlement or age group establishment

Honesty007:
stop deceiving urself, u better go for deliverance if u have not been.one thing is too painful, what is ur name, if an idolgod is among ur name,do u even for one second think that GOD would write idol names IN THE BOOK OF LIFE?

Your ignorance is more than bewilderment. People like you need not even be on culture section for castigation of a whole ethnic group that's over 100million + in population.

The stereotype ignorance of your kind of Christians that lacked 100% the understanding of the spoken language of the Hebrews nor their Lord but base your knowledge on English language that's not accurate in translation of Hebrew Bible . Even the word , Christ is a derivative from the Greek Christos . Paradventure you don't know the word Christ comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one". My question is, are you anointed for condemning Yorubas or their ancestors ? Even David didn't existed as the correct name of king of the unified country of Hebrews.

Futhernmore , Jesus is actually Yeshua which showed you don't even know the God of the Hebrew you claimed to serve . If indeed you want to boast about Christianity of later Hebrew, then go study the reason they do shebo(do sacrifice) and Yeshua didn't say they will stop it willingly.


Do you actually think you deserve posting all these unfounded information? You think you know the religion of Hebrew ancestors that's uses sacrifice to appease God on every sin committed. I just wonder how someone like you who isn't versatile in Yoruba language and Hebrew, won't appreciate Yoruba tradition. Doubt you are even Yoruba in the first place to be able to infer on Christianity. Yet the Mother land of Christianity in Africa is in YORUBA LAND.