₦airaland Forum

sweetnecta,

Are you saying that the Quran does not say:
(a)to kill any one who converts from Islam (the religion of Allah) but instead says
(b) to kill anyone who converts from his religion; or that
(c) either or both a and b are only found in an Hadith (which is false when it contradicts the Quran)?

If 'b', please quote and link to the Quranic verse. If your answer is 'c', will you then agree that any Muslim who kills another Muslim who has converted to another religion has not followed the commanment of Allah, and is therefore a murderer?

Sweetnecta:
@Seyibrown: « #97 on: Today at 03:56:21 PM »You can grin all day long, it will not change the already established fact; Quran 2 verse 256
2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, ,
www.themodernreligion.com/terror/terrorism_verses1.htm - Cached - Similar

also Quran 15:2-3 "Again and again will those who , Notice that the Quran says those who reject faith and then BELIEVE and , 3- So how come Muslim Fundamentalists execute those who desert Islam then? ,
www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm - Cached - Similar

Hadith (And what people of knowledge say about that specific hadith): "kill whoever changes his religion". But this hadith is open to varying interpretations on several grounds.

First, this hadith is considered a weak hadith with just a single isnad (this means there is only one chain of transmission or narration) and thus according to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, it is not enough to validate the death penalty.

Second, this hadith is also considered a general ('amm) hadith in that it is in need of specification (takhsis); for it would otherwise convey a meaning that is not within its purpose. The obvious reading of the hadith would, for example, make liable the death punishment on a Hindu or Christian who converts to Islam. This is obviously not the intention of the hadith. According to the rules of Islamic jurisprudence, when a text is interpreted once, it becomes open to further interpretation and specification. Therefore, many scholars interpret this hadith to apply only to cases of high treason (hirabah), which means declaring war against Islam, the Prophet, or God or the legitimate leadership of the ummah.

Third, and most importantly, there is no evidence to show that Prophet Muhammad saw or his Companions ever compelled anyone to embrace Islam, nor did they sentence anyone to death solely for renunciation of the faith.

Based on these three reasons and the Qur'anic principle of freedom of religion, prominent ulama (scholars) from the seventh to the twentieth centuries have come out with the position that there can be no death penalty for apostasy. According to Professor Hashim Kamali in his award-winning book, Freedom of Expression in Islam, two leading jurists of the generation succeeding the Companions, Ibrahim al-Naka'I and Sufyan al-Thawri, both held that the apostate should be re-invited to Islam, but should never be condemned to death. The renowned Hanafi jurist, Shams al-Din al-Sarakhsi wrote that even though renunciation of faith is the greatest of offences, it is a matter between man and his Creator, and its punishment is postponed to the Day of Judgement. The Maliki jurist Abul Walid al-Baji and the renowned Hanbali jurist Ibn Taymiyyah have both held that apostasy is a sin which carries no hadd punishment.

In modern times, the celebrated Sheikh of al-Azhar University, the late Mahmud Shaltut who was esteemed for his vast knowledge of Islamic jurisprudence and Qur'anic interpretation, wrote that many ulama are in agreement that hudud cannot be established by a solitary hadith and that unbelief by itself does not call for the death penalty. The current Sheikh of al-Azhar, who was Egypt's former Grand Mufti, Dr Mohammed Sayed Tantawi, also declared that apostasy is not a capital crime.

Many scholars, including Ibn Taymiyyah, Shaltut and Tantawi, said that the death penalty was not meant to apply to a simple change of faith, but to hirabah, that is, when apostasy is accompanied by rebellion against the community and its legitimate leadership.

Extracts from
http://www.sistersinislam.org.my/letterstoeditors/22071999.htm

Making my summary brief, the passage above is about ACCEPTING JESUS or REJECTING JESUS! The sword seperates those who accept Jesus from those who don't. Picture situations where a family member has been killed for accepting Jesus; just exactly what Jesus was saying there! Many people have died (in Christ) because their family members turned against them for accepting Jesus, and it is still happening today! The members of their own family became their enemies. Jews and Christians are hated, persecuted and killed because of Jesus! If you are for Jesus, you will stand for him regardless of what other people say, think or do to you because of him; if you love Jesus and want to be part of his kingdom, you follow him to the end!

Madame Gymnastics, even Pastor paul cannot beat you oh! The whole verse gives us a picture of a religion of Crisis, were People will turn against one another beacuse of It, Do you know many people have died beacause they did not accept Christ as their god? the inter pretation you are giving us is ver two sided don't you think? On one hand the sword Kills those that do not accept Christ as their god/savior, on the other you claim it kill those that actually accepted him, Madame Gymnastics, this one pass Politician own sef,  If you read the verse Jesus says  -35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.-hence we can interprete it as saying in essence I will make you Christians to go against you fathers etc where you got the idea that it is opposite the Children and actually forcing their religion on their parents not the parents forcing on the children is very much Incoherent gymnastism.

ROTFL! How on earth did you arrive at your post from my summary? Olorun mo numba ile e o!    E tire me for you o! What can I do for you to help you read right?

No, he did not approve of the copies that were in circulation during his life time.

Alteration No. 12: Four or Forty

  II Samuel l 5:7 contains:

And it came to pass after forty years that Absalom said unto the King”,

Here the word ’forty’ is undoubtedly wrong: the correct number is four. Adam Clarke said in volume two of his book:

There is no doubt that this text has been altered.

No, he did not approve of the copies that were in circulation during his life time.

If all the diplomacy argument is your classification of him, please know that every Messenger and or Prophet (AS), 124000 of them starting from Adam to Muhammad (AS) carry the same exact quality. Then they were all God with us, though they were not so called, and neither was jesus.

You miss the point! All that the TRUE PROPHETS had were 'ordinary passports', hence their inability to claim to be 'physical representations of God', and they did not claim so! Jesus ALONE held a 'diplomatic passport' that allowed him to present himself as and be recognised as 'the physical representation of God'. He carried out the 'assignments' of God because the 'authority and power' of God was vested in him! God confirmed that ministry with evidence (The Holy Spirit) that continues to live in heart of those who believe today! Alleluia!

If thats your belief. How can evil doers, as a group remain favored by Just and Merciful God? If Israel who killed your god is favored still by God, is that not injustice to your god who got killed, and double injustice to the Egyptians that harbored he and his parents since the sin of few pharaoh knocked them out of the box of favor which they enjoyed before Moses, specifically during before and a little after Joseph?They were still none Muslims then, though few believed in One God, but majority looked at their Kings as you christians look at Jesus.

And you asked if I was saying that Christians still believe that Jews are the chosen people and that belief is wrong? My answer is that such a belief is completely wrong since the jews are off the track of right guidance.

Quranic verse providing the criterion of right guidance:


Surah Maidah; Verses 12 to 15 are exactly what i need to give you.

5:12: Indeed Allah took the covenant from the Children of Israel (Jews), and We appointed twelve leaders among them. And Allah said: "I am with you if you perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat) and give Zakat and believe in My Messengers; honour and assist them, and lend to Allah a good loan. Verily, I will remit your sins and admit you to Gardens under which rivers flow (in Paradise). But if any of you after this, disbelieved, he has indeed gone astray from the Straight Path."

5:13: So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allah loves Al-Muhsinun (good-doers - see V.2:112).

5:14: And from those who call themselves Christians, We took their covenant, but they have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. So We planted amongst them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection (when they discarded Allah's Book, disobeyed Allah's Messengers and His Orders and transgressed beyond bounds in Allah's disobedience), and Allah will inform them of what they used to do.

5:15: O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Now has come to you Our Messenger (Muhammad SAW) explaining to you much of that which you used to hide from the Scripture and passing over (i.e. leaving out without explaining) much. Indeed, there has come to you from Allah a light (Prophet Muhammad SAW ) and a plain Book (this Quran).

Jesus said in Luke 2 verse 46 that the false pen of the Scribes. . . . (talking about the books and their laws in place before he arrived to preach the Gospel, he was given to preach. Notice that I said, he was given gospel to preach, a commandment on him by his Master God Almighty Who sent him. Why would a prophet be sent if everything about the book for guidance is in order, perfectly preserved? Imagine 1400 years plus now since Quran was revealed to Muhammad (AS), no prophet with a book that is separate like Quran is to the Bible but not a copycat from what was already on the ground like the Mormon or Jehovah's witness, or the Seven Day Adventist, etc is to the Bible of the Protestant, which was a copycat from the Bible of the Catholic, has emerged. Muhammad (AS), said no prophet and religion shall come from God after him. What we found therefore are cults.

Scribes: www.bible-history.com/faussets/S/Scribes/ - Cached - Similar.
        Copheerim, from caaphar to "write," "order," and "count." (See LAWYER.) The function was military in Judges 5:14 (See SCEPTRE), also in Jeremiah 52:25; Isaiah 33:18. Two scribes in Assyrian monuments write down the various objects, the heads of the slain, prisoners, cattle, etc. The scribe or "royal secretary" under David and Solomon (2 Samuel 8:17; 2 Samuel 20:25; 1 Kings 4:3) ranks with the high priest and the captain of the host (compare 2 Kings 12:10). Hezekiah's scribe transcribed old records and oral traditions, in the case of Proverbs 25-29, under inspiration of God. Henceforth, the term designates not a king's officer but "students and interpreters of the law". Jeremiah 8:8 in KJV means "the pen of transcribers is (i.e. multiplies copies) in vain." But Maurer, "the false pen of the scribes (persons skilled in expounding) has converted it (the law) into a lie," namely, by false interpretations.

Revelation as in Book; Taurah of Musa, Sabur of Daud, Injil of Isa bin Maryam, Quran of Muhammad (AS to each of them). All prophets were men, Muslims sent by Allah (SWT)/

Fabrication; In the Beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God and the word became Flesh. All things were created by him, through him, for him. Consider that the word {Let there be light} was not spoken until many things were created, God didnt need jesus for nothing (Anything because the man who is a stickler for excellence, even though he (alexis) lacked it willl seize on my slip). Jesus was not the Word (A Tool of Command of God).

False verse: Jesus says I am God. Why did he pray to THE GOD? Why should God be Praying to God?

Weak Verse: If you have seen me, you have seen God. Is God in his dimension and why among others proof against this idea did he cry out "my God, my God,. . . .? Would you not have expected myself, or my partner instead?

jaygetta:
Is seyibrown somehow related to Janet Napolitano? Cus the way the guy dey take vex on this issue,

No, not all!  I am very 'Negroid'! It'll just be nice if we encourage 'our people' to abide by the Laws of any country they go to instead of suggesting that we guarantee them our sympathy when they go breaking laws and telling the world that lawlessness is synonymous with being black! I know the world is not 'right' but we can all do our bit to make it a better place!

Q. Has anyone ever SEEN God? Scriptures such as John 1:18, Exodus 33:20, John 6:46 and 1John 4:12 say NO. Bible passages such as Genesis 32:30, Exodus 33:11, Isaiah 6:1 and Job 42:5 appear to say YES. Is this a contradiction in scripture?
(Submitted by: J. J. )
A. The quick answer is NO,. . . . .  (Please read the complete presentation and see the magic of Christianity, even God has became 2, instead of Trinity (3), which I have argued with you ans Alexis, sorry Aletheia, since the ghost does not have a name, a title. Your response when you post it will come to bite you hard, since Jesus is servant of God, Who sent him.

vedaxcool:
Why don't you quote where it says all you saying, you that do not know your bible but instead you try ard to dodge at every junction: #
again you have not explain to us why Jesus made it his job to separate son from father, daughter from mother etc yet you in an attempt to quench fire you use spit rather than water, now that ain't wise.

Lazy vexdacool!
Sweetnecta ended up muddling up the matter in post #86, hence my asking him to clarify. When he answers post #87, I will expect him to quote and prvide links, using the Quran and the Hadith to show us what exactly Islam says on the matter of whether to kill those who convert from Islam. He already admitted that something along the lines exist in the Quran and Hadith so it's him who needs to quote it to back up his assertions and prove that we are being misled by the false Hadith, not me!

I already addressed the father -son-mother-daughter separation in post #44 on page 2! If only you actually read and follow the posts on this thread!

Sweetnecta:
How about books?


Count it; Start from Acts of the Apostles. Then move forward to the end of the NT. That should satisfy you. And if you are greedy, ask yourself which one is not corrup between these two verses from Jesus? See below and help yourself.


Jesus said I and my father are 1.

or

Jesus said I am a servant sent by God.


Tell me which one is not corrupt in its meaning since they completely oppose each other?

If will be hard press to accept that your son will say he is your servant in reality, or your servant will say he is your son in reality. One of the two person must be a liar.


Is corruption not equal to lying? a corrupter is a liar.

Sweetnecta:
@Proo212: « #74 on: Yesterday at 06:08:59 PM »The bold is a classic and i'm grateful to God Almighty for it. While I'm lying, it is true that Quran says there is no compulsion in religion. It did not mention Islam or any religion for that matter. It further says in the very verse that truth has come and falsehood has no ability to continue. In another verse, Quran says that people who left Islam, becoming disbeliever, then decide to return into Islam, becoming beliver. Then after it becomes a disbeliever, again by leaving Islam. Then return to Islam, after it, and even then leave Islam, and then return to it again. This Allah Says after it, it may continue that it becomes a matter of joke or wimp, going in and coming out of Islam that Allah may not even accept their coming into Islam, since Only he Knows the heart.

If a man or people who say they are muslims then go out to kill a person who merely left Islam, is this an action enjoined on him or them by the Quran? If you turn to Hadith and say it is encouraged by it, then you will discover that it simply says those who leave their religion, without specifying Islam. Though I believe the Hadith is fabricated since it goes against Quran and not just explaining what the Quran says, but it did not say anything about Islam or other religion.

We can be sure that the Hadith is wrong or weak or fabricated, since it would mean that those who convert into Islam would therefore be killed.

Thanks for losing respect for me. By the way, when the croats, and others killed the muslims in Bosnia, and the Spanish Inquisition and the old Crusades of so many centuries ago, and even the crusade of president Bush, did you chalk that to Christianity? How about the Hindus killing the Muslims in Mombai?

and have you ever heard of Muhamadlam? its Islam and do you believe or know that Christianity begin after the death of Jesus and that was by paul or maybe you can tell me the origin of Xtainity pls

Exactly . . . .  but when I point out that I am a CHRISTIAN (follower of Christ), most opposers of christianity insist that I should practice and be bound by JUDAISM and not CHRISTIANITY!  Why should I want to go back to the 'Law of sin and death' when the path has been cleared to the 'Law of Spirit of Life' in Christ!

CHRISTIANITY originated from CHRIST, not PAUL! Paul was a follower of Jesus Christ who passed on instructions, guidance and encouragement as given by the Holy Spirit whom Jesus said would come when he had gone; PAUL IS NOT THE CHRIST, JESUS IS!

Eh, some of these people have families, kids in school, wives, etc. It isn't as easy as you make it out to be. Imagine a man being deported and then being separated from his kids who are citizens, for example. Would be nice if we could just say, "he broke the law, screw him", but it affects more than just him.

vedaxcool:
"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it(Reminds one of suicide bombers, who are willing to lose their life for their cause)." (Matthew 10:34-39)


" 49 I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism* to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished! 51[size=18pt] Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division; 52 for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father* against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.[/size] (Luke 12:49-53)

f anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26)

Why all this threats?

Waiting for the Double- speaking Clowns to rush Parabulize it,Lol!

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it(Reminds one of suicide bombers, who are willing to lose their life for their cause)." (Matthew 10:34-39)

This Wikileaks footage shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Elden and her driver Saeed Chmagh being shot at by the Apache. The attack occurred in a public square in Baghdad and they were assumed to be militants. After the initial shooting, a minivan full of adults and children drove into the square and were fired upon as well. The US military listed the adults as militants and claimed they did not know how the deaths occurred.

This Wikileaks footage shows Reuters journalist Namir Noor-Elden and her driver Saeed Chmagh being shot at by the Apache. The attack occurred in a public square in Baghdad and they were assumed to be militants. After the initial shooting, a minivan full of adults and children drove into the square and were fired upon as well. The US military listed the adults as militants and claimed they did not know how the deaths occurred.

vedaxcool:
Can you point out were I Justified Suicie bombings? This cry baby sef, wetin, why you Just dey kolo, on top sey persin exposed your 419 scheme? You are in every respect of the word Lie a great Liar with Drunken Flair to cry instead of expressing yourself sensibly, even Seyi behaves more like the Matured Man in the two you(Genocidal supporting creeps), your weakness is no fault of yours it seems inherited like the Original sin, Lol! Despite all your tears, the truth has emerge triuphing above your vain tears.