₦airaland Forum

Obrigardo:
Basilico will still go in headstrong. That man is long gone, even if criminal trump ate a baby live and he saw it, he would tell you the baby was a toy placed by the deepstate to tempt criminal trump.

The guys dedication to Trump is Godlike. Even Mohammed did not have worshippers with that level of fanatism.

Obrigardo:
Criminal trump about to be Indicted! womp womp

Some people on this forum is about to lose their sanity. I don't see how they can remain sane seeing their personal lord and saviour in the Dock. They might resort to terrorism - both online and offline.

Christistruth03:
Abuja voters are not Superior to other Nigerians
It is not the Osu Caste System


What you are saying is that if 100% of Non Abuja voters vote for a Candidate and only 24% votes for him in Abuja then he cannot be President

That means that only Abuja voters will have the right to Choose who is the President

All the other Nigerians are simply wasting their time voting

Wrong. The Constitution did not say he cannot be president. What the Constitution said is that a run off will be conducted between the top 2 candidates and anyone who wins the majority in a run off becomes president

This is the appropriate time to revive this thread where Buhari led a protest against subsidy removal in 2012. What has changed in 10 years where the same buhari is the one thar removed fuel subsidy?

ejimatic:
FCT is like any other state

It is not. All its lands had been taken over by the Federal government and they are not allowed the people to represent them in a democracy.

olusogo:
The question you should be asking is why 25% in FCT more important than Enugu, Osun or Taraba State?

It is long settled that FCT is not different from other States of the Federation. Nigeria has 37 States and FCT meaning to be treated like 38 States.

Because FCT is not allowed to elect its own governor and legislature. Since the president assumes the role of the governor common sense demands that he should have at least have minimum level of support from the people.

josilcool:
Atiku did not have 25% in FCT and also 2/3 of the federation. He came 2nd

Obi did not have 25% in 2/3 of the federation but have it in FCT. He came 3rd

Tinubu did not have 25% in FCT but have it in 2/3 of the federation. He came 1st

Who is now qualify to be declare as president..?

The Constitution prescribes a run off between the top two candidates.

CodeTemplar:
The rich are suppose to emerge by adding value and making their profit gradually and not by leeching on the Commonwealth of all.

Nigeria is the only country we have stupendously wealthy people without any known business outside politics.
Tinubu that has been collecting stupendous allowances and pecks including free houses, cars and salary for since 2007 is telling the poor masses about sacrifice.

gabbytabby:
Its based on the contract they have with the refinery.

Do your research if you are really interested in the detail.

You made a claim that the swap agreement does not cover the cost of the petrol, meaning that is the justification for paying N3 trillion in subsidies for petrol alone. I asked you to tell me how much the swap agreement covers and you are asking me to do research. If you know why not just give us the figures.

SalamRushdie:
First you didn't get the angle I was driving at .
Secondly there are many countries in Europe that consume more petroleum than Nigeria

https://www.citypopulation.de/en/world/bymap/oilconsumption/

I was talking about petrol and your switched over to petroleum? Are we discussing subsidy on petrol or subsidy on petroleum. Petroleum includes Kerosene, diesel, Aviation fuel, gas, LPFO, HPFO, petroleum jelly, bitumen, condensates, etc. Of course a more industrialised nation will use more petroleum products to run their industries.

jidemojola:
Because there is no provision for subsidy payment in the 2023 budget prepared by the previous administration.

What then happens to the subsidy payments budgeted for the month of June?

gabbytabby:
The swap covers some of the cost not all

How much does the swap cover?

SalamRushdie:
How I buy Petro from Europe at 350 a litre , please explain to me how supply by my fellow importer will make me drop price below the industry mark up margin?

First of all Europe does not produce crude oil, all crude for their refineries are imported at international price.

Secondly, there is heavy tax on refined petroleum products in Europe.

Thirdly, demand of petrol is very low in Europe when compared to Nigeria. They have mass transportation system. Many of their cars are electric. Many Europeans have no business with petrol.

Fourthly, they have an efficient energy policy with good energy mix of which energy from petrol is very minimal. They have solar, Gas, nuclear and hydro as significant portion of their energy mix.
And lastly and most importantly, there is little or no corruption in their system. They don't have oil thieves, subsidy thieves and thieving political elite that is above the law.

malware:
If they do the swap, the value of received petrol per litre is N500 (for example), but the Government ask marketers to sell it at let's say N200, meaning that it's the Govt that will bear the burden of the difference, amd that's what subsidy is.

What are you saying? Or you don't understand what swap means. Crude oil swap means you give refinery crude oil, crude oil you are not buying. The refineries refine the crude free of charge but gives you petrol, diesel and kerosene. They keep the remaining bye products as payment. So how did you arrive at N500 / litre? NNPC was only supposed to pay for shipping cost of crude to the refineries and shipping costs of refined products back to Nigeria. Please note that the production cost of Nigerian crude is about $30/barrel.

Since NNPC is the sole importer of refined petroleum products, who are they paying subsidies to?

Dicado:
Nice one, stop the swap and pay in "Naira" cash. Putin did it and it appreciated their currency against dollars. Ours will work too.

Why are you avoiding the elephant in the room to start looking for cockroaches. How come crude for petrol swap agreement is in place and the the government is still paying N3 trillion per year on subsidies? Who are they paying the subsidies to?

PlutoChief:
I'm not his fan but I love him already! We need someone who understand economy and how it works.

Some one that understands economy is not able price energy in relation to wages of its citizens.
Just in one week, electricity prices increase by 30%, fuel prices increased by 200% but wages remained stagnant with minimum wage still at N30,000. Is that how economy works?

obinnanelson4:
If they have been engaging in crude swap for refined pms, why then is subsidy in the picture all these while. Or is it that i do not understand what swap means?

Abeg Helep me ask dem. NNPC is saying they are swapping crude for petrol with foreign refineries and at the same time saying they are paying N3 trillion subsidies on the same petrol. How that makes sense to anyone beats me.

Lifestone:
I will be disappointed if BAT reverses himself, when he's not GEJ

This country belongs to all of us and not BAT alone. BAT is not an Emperor. If Nigerians say no to subsidy removal, then no it shall be.

YouandiAllofus:
I hope they reach an agreement that will enable the gov work out modalities to cushion the immediate hardship effect as well as a sustainable plan on the continuous improvement of the petroleum industry.

Forget the modalities to cushion hardship for now. We need transparency in the oil sector. What happened to the crude for petrol swap deal with refineries in Europe? What happed to the 300,000 crude that is specifically allocated for local consumption? Where is NNPC audited account for the last 20 years?

Healthquest:
wages increment won't solve ds actually.

A cheaper transportation means and alternative to petrol will be the one to help out

Don't mind them, we have been removing subsidy since the 80s and each time inflation will rise, naira will fall and we will start discussing subsidy once again.

Abeg helep me ask Subsidy removal proponents how Abacha was able to do it despite all the corruption allegedly uncovered in his administration. Abacha increased petrol prices from N11 to N14 and gave the extra N3 to Buhari's PTF for infrastructure like roads, university buildings, etc. Till today we could see those infrastructure.please remember Abacha did not even borrow $1 from anyone despite crude prices never going beyong $16 per barrel, at a time it fell as low a $8.
Abacha must have been a miracle worker.

nairalanda1:
Erm but the people that extract thw crude are free to sell it at international prices not at goverment set prices.

Plus crude oil wells belong to the owners once they paid the price.

Has nothing to do.with subsidy.

I'm ending our discussion here. Subsidy ain't suatainable. You don't want to accept it. I can't force you to.

Good evening

I know you don't understand. You are probably a member of the big three tribes (well two) that enjoy the present Nigerian arrangement, where crude oil is situated in the Niger delta but enjoyed mainly by the north and south west.
Let me break it down for you. Over 90% of Nigeria's revenue (meaning money used to run the government is obtained from sale of crude). Now over 70% of this crude is gotten from the Niger Delta. These are Nigerdeltan whose land is seized by the Nigerian state and then sold to multinational foreign companies and their Nigerian cronies. The people who owned the land lose all rights to the lands. The government just settle a few chiefs, elders and youths and the do as they like. That's the same model the colonial powers used to exploit and subjugate natives. Now that's a digression that's a whole chapter on its own.

Now back to subsidy. What we the Nigerdeltans are saying is that we have crude under our feet. We agree that we submit that crude to the Nigerian state for the common good. But what do we get in return, outside pollution, civil strife and neglect? Ordinary to buy petrol gotten from crude from our lands, you are telling us to buy at international price. Boys bust pipeline or oil wells and start selling the crude themselves, you arrest them and brand them thieves. Meanwhile the political elites are stealing the oil in supertankers.

Now let me brake it down further. The cost of refining Nigeria's crude is about $30 per barrel after removing all production costs. So even if price of crude internationally is $100, the remaining is still profit. Why should I an itsekiri man or an ijaw man be buying petrol produced with crude at $100 per barrel? Is it the government subsidizing me or me subsidizing the government at a crude price above $30 per barrel.

If you say subsidy is not sustainable, how then was Obasanjo able to sustain subsidy and at the same time pay up all our debt, hosted two huge international events and still left over $40 billion in our external reserves for Yaradua?

Once again, we are subsidizing corruption and not fuel.

nairalanda1:
Goverment has not seized any forms of production.

NNPC is now private plus people are allowed to sell fuel at market price.

Subsidy was not working anymore

Time to.face the.cold hard truth.

I am not talking about fuel. I am referring to the crude itself. Government control all lands that crude oil is found in. That's against the tenets of true capitalism.

nairalanda1:
The government has just let the sale of petrol operate under the prinicples of the free market, and you are claiming they seized property?

Oga, if you like, let them keep the subsidy. Run for office and get them to keep the subsidy. But I don't understand a policy where we buy petrol above N300 and sell it below N200.

If you like, call me an oppressor, call me a Tinubu supporter. You already are calling me one. But as for me, we can't sustain the subsidy.

And yes, it makes me sad....but it would be worse if the subsidy monster overwhelms the revenue we have.

Good afternoon. Finis.

Free market where government still seize factors of production? which is any land that oil is found in. If the government want to practice free market economy as is done in the US, they should let the owners of the lands crude and gas is discovered in to control their lands or at least let the states control their resources, whether crude, gold, diamond, cocoa, tomatoes, etc.

nairalanda1:
And the refineries have not been working because for decades we have been selling petrol, and until 2013, kerosene, diesel and company below the production price.

Keyword - Production price!!! What is the production price of Kerosene, diesel and petrol in Nigeria? There has to be production first before we start talking about Production price. Why is it that the government used our money to build 4 refineries and then later decided that government is not in the business of doing business and then refused to operate those refineries?
Why are we the ones to pay for government's corruption and incompetence?

Which is why subsidy was removed in time for Dangote's refinery to be opened, it was because if it was not removed, Dangote won't make a profit, and his refinery would break down...because it can't make enough proft.

Mute excuse. First the issue is not with the petroleum products themself but the price at which the crude oil is being sold to dangote or other refineries. Please note that 300,000 barrels per day for is allocated for local consumption and presently we produce just above 1.2 million barrels per day. At our highest we were producing 2.4 million barrel. So what happened to our allocations for local consumption?

We are not supposed to be buying diesel kerosene and petrol from foreign refineries. We were told we had a crude to petroleum products swap with foreign refineries, what happened? why do we still pay for the petroleum products?

As per Dangote, we would have preferred government enter the same crude swap agreement with Dangote. Government could give his refinery our allocated 300,000 barrels per day crude and get kerosene, diesel and crude in return. It will eliminate the long chain of corruption taking it abroad to refine.

Then there is the harsh fact that we do not control oil prices. Nigeria is a member of OPEC. Right now, OPEC is meeting with the sole aim of cutting oil production to raise prices. If we go against OPEC and raise production....we would end up pushing the oil price down. For nothing. And where does that leave our revenue.? We can start selling all the oil reserves we have now, and oil prices would fall

Opec control crude prices, they don't control petroleum products or gas prices. Why not go the finished products route instead of lazily selling raw crude. We own the crude. We can decide to refine all our crude like the US, China, Canada and co, instead of being at the mercy of OPEC.

Remember when Saudi let oil flow run like the wild mustangs on an American prarie. Oh yes, prices fell, the US oil industry whom the action was targeted at did not blink an eye, but we poor nations suffered.

Oh yes, subsidy means that the sector is not profitable enough to earn enough cash to open more fields...then there is the stealing going on by corrupt officals and by the local people in the name of resource control..(not that I blame them, their governments don't do nothing).

At the end of the day, if we want to be a prosperous nation we have to start doing things like improving our income from tax, moving away from oil, and removing subsides. We have done the subsidy part. As to whether this APC government would do the others...well, we shall see. I am not hopeful at all.


(P.S I am not saying we should not fight corruption or stop stealing or overlook bad governance, by the way.).

We are only subsidizing corrupt political elites and their officials. I don't see why me whose father land is awash with crude willbe forced to buy petroleum products at international prices determined in Riyadh, Newyork or Brussels.

Jostoman:
labour will not go and sit down, if you are getting awoof money from government we are not, everything is about politics for your oga.

Is it the people that's getting awoof money from government or the government getting awoof money from the people?

COMPAQ:
Which thieving oil cabal exactly? I think too often we like to cloud simple issues by linking then to an unseen cabal. Last I heard is that NNPC has been the only importer of petrol in the Buhari regime. The cabal of various importers was in the Jonathan/Diezani era.

Cabal is why petrol subsidy isn't working
Generator cabal is why we don't have electricity.

Meanwhile in those two sectors, the real issue is we are selling product below the cost of production. In other sectors where there is zero government intervention ND prices are set based on market dynamics like GSM, hotels, event center, diesel, airlines, clothes etc why is there no cabal there?


We buy petrol at say N450 per litre then we come and sell at N185per litre, making huge losses on purpose. Now it might actually be good if we were spending this from our actual earning, but no, we actually borrow to even do this. That's how precarious our finances are as a country.
Yes there is misappropriation of funds in this country, but also how many people pay proper taxes. I can bet you 90% of people on this forum have some hidden income they don't pay any tax on.

Because we have over 40 billion barrels of proven oil reserves and over 5 trillion cubic metres of gas reserves. If corrupt political elites allow our refineries to work and exploit our gas reserves, we could sell petrol and gas to Nigerians at any price we like. We could even start exporting petrol and other oil products instead of export crude and importing petrol.

nairalanda1:
So.govermemt should force an industry to operate at a loss?

Right.

You did not answer my question? Should government seize peoples lands and resources and then complain that it cannot use the resources to benefit the owners of the resources? If government says they want to operate capitalism, why not hand over peoples resources to them and let them sell it at whatever price that suit them, and then pay taxes on them?

patrickcollins:
Which Nigerians are ready to suffer, why are the ruling class not ready to suffer.
Since Nigeria has been declared broke, national assemblies should fit the bill of their bogus lifestyle, they should buy their own vehicle from their salary, buy their furnitures too, the president and ministers should do same. What about the security votes they collect for doing nothing.

Don't mind them. Ask him if the political elites are ready to suffer now to enjoy later? Are they ready to sacrifice their furniture allowance, newspaper allowance, constituency projects, wardrobe allowance, petrol allowance, etc? Is it only the already impoverished masses that is required to sacrifice? The political class is lucky that we are a very docile people, this kind of thing would lead to a revolution anywhere else in the world.

nairalanda1:
So you think that governemt should force businesses to operate at a loss to help the poor.

It was tried before in what used to be communist countries. They all collapsed as a result or went free market

Marketers have to sell at a profit because millions of Nigerians who help.bring you the petrol have to make a decent living. Not just the cabals.

It seems you want to deny them that right, Comrade Leader

So government should seize peoples lands and resources in the name of capitalism and then drain the resources (crude in this case), with the attendant environmental and social destruction to the owners of the land, and then shout "government is not in the business of business" when told to account for how they use the resources or at least allow the people with the resources enjoy the benefits of their resources. Is that communism or capitalism?

omenka:
Tripping over is no big deal for someone his age.

E shock me as they are making a mountain out of a molehill. He stumbled on something on the floor and then got up and walked away (with help of course).

Sijo01:
Where are EFCC/ICPC when you need them

They are too busy running after Yahoo boys.

omohayek:
1. If you think Europe's Common Agricultural Policy actually decreased food costs for consumers, you have completely misunderstood how it worked and what it's effects were. It was a price support mechanism, intended to benefit farmers by putting a price floor on their products. What that translated into was higher food costs for the vast majority of Europeans who aren't farmers and have never even been to a farm. The CAP has always been a gigantic rent-seeking arrangement for a small group of highly cosseted farmers at the expense of the rest of the population, even the very poorest. Why would anyone of right mind wish to copy a scheme that even the EU's members have long recognized to be utterly harmful?

Is what you wrote up there not a paradox? Europe Agricultural Policy is a price support mechanism (subsidy) to benefit farmers but rather than reduce price of their farm products to the consumers, it increases it. How does that even make sense. Please explain.
For your information most industrialised countries if not all give agricultural subsidies to farmers to bring down the cost of food. Even some poor countries give agricultural subsidies.

You must be more intelligent than Einstein. A policy that's was debated and implemented by 27 European countries is the one almighty omohayek says is harmful. If EU members recognised that agricultural subsidies are harmful, why have they not abolished it.

2. You talk as if every group of citizens has a "right" to be "entitled" to some product or other, but that isn't how economies work anywhere. All goods and services have their costs of production, and there are no free lunches in economics: if something is "free" to consumers in some way, someone else must be paying for it. Europe's economies are productive enough to tolerate even wasteful and anti-consumer schemes that tax the general populace to pay off small groups of rent-seekers like the farming lobby.

As I have noted, you must be the Einstein of Economic to counter economic professors worldwide who advice their government to give their citizens one subsidy or the other to make their lives more meaningful. Me, I might not be an economic genius like you, but I was taught in elementary economics that the fundamental goal of economics is to get the greatest amount of satisfaction from available resources.[/quote]

Nigeria, on the other hand, is an extremely low-productivity economy where most people are so poor they aren't even worth taxing,

False. Yes Nigerians are extremely poor, but the poorest in Nigeria pay the highest amount of taxes, particularly indirect taxes that does not enter the coffers of government. We pay all kinds of taxes both hidden and open on all services and goods we consume. Ordinary Okada riders pay up to 30% of their daily income on all kinds of levies, approved by the state governments.

Most of our billionaires and billionaires don't pay taxes, the ones that do pay token taxes for official purposes. Non of them has ever shown their tax receipts.

while the government is so bloated and has borrowed so much that just covering its interest payments to foreign lenders already consumes the entirety of its diminished revenues from selling unrefined oil. Where, then, is the money supposed to come from to pay for whatever it is you think Nigerians are justified in feeling "entitled" to?

Why not ask what the government does with the money it borrow at huge interests. Who enjoys the benefits of the borrowed monies - the government officials or the people? Why do you feel a few government officials of less than a million is more entitled to Nigeria's wealth - borrowed or earned than the other over 200 million Nigerians. Why do you feel that it is justified to use the same borrowed money to pay huge allowances and parks to former governors, their deputies and their wives. Lagos State Government is already paying 3 former governors huge allowances and perks, a time will come when they will be paying up to 6 former governors, ditto for all other states. And you are here talking about entitlements.
Have to go now.